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Full text of "Official report of debates (Hansard) : Legislative Assembly of Ontario = Journal des débats (Hansard) : Assemblée législative de l'Ontario 1945"

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VOL. 2 

- 680 - 




Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 8, 1045 

3PSAXKR: Bonourabla ffllllam J, 3ta«art, C.B.B. 

Tha Bouaa mat at threa o'clock. 
Prayara . 

MB aPUAinCP : Presantlng patltlona« 
CLIK£ 07 Vm HOUSS: Tha folloving patltiona 
hare baan recalved: 

•Of tha Corporation of tha To»n of Parla, 
praylHiS that an Act may pass authorizing 
tha purchasa by the Patltlonars of tha 
Paria Arana from tha Paris Arena, Ll&ita4, 
and tha laaua of dabanturas of $6,000.00 

"Of tha Corporation of tha Townahlp of 
Teo^, praying that an Act may paaa author^ 
Ising tha aald Corporation to terminate an 
agraamant with the Taok-Hughaa OoXd Mlnaa, 
Limited, proTldlnfi for the supply of vatar** 
W. SPIAOR: Baadlng and raoelTing patltiona. 
Praaantlng raporta by eonnittaaa. 
Mot i one. 

Introduction of bllla, 

MR. WILLIAM DINiaaON (St. DaTld ) : Mr. Spaakar» 
I BOTa, seconded by Mr. Strange (Brentford), that lea re 
W glraa to Introduce a bill entltuled, *Aii Aat to 
amend tha Municipal ,^e«n»a^ aorvioaa* Aet, 1944,* and that 



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- *81 9-5-46 


tha amm* be now read tha flrat tiw. 

Motion agraad to and bill read tha flrat time. 
BON. R. P. VIVIAN (IClniatar of BMlth): Would the 
hon. aambar (Mr. Deonlaon) explain? 

MR. DBNNISON: Mr. Speaker, and hon. menbera of the 
Hou8e» I would Juat like to explain thla aaendBent would glwe 
any municipal body the right to make their own plena with 
their own loeal hoapltals or physlolana or boards or aaaoelft- 
tlona without neoeaearlly going through the proTinolal Be«ltJl 
Serwloea' Board. It would also allow them to ralae their 
own Boney, end disperse those funds in any way they aaw fit, 
aubjeet to the hon. Mlnlater's reguletlons, without handing 
OTer the noney to the prorinelal board to apend for thea* 

AbA, thirdly, it would not definitely foree an elec- 
tion of the local plan at the end of three yeara unleaa the 
loeal nunlcipality decided an election or a TOte on the plan 
waa desirable at that tlmeo 

And, fourthly, it would require that six months* 
notice be given for the termination of the plan. 

MR. C. A. STRANOK ( Brentford): I aoTe, seconded by 
Mr. Dennison, that Iwave be given to introduce a bill entltuled, 
*Ab Act to amtnd the Marriage Aet,* and that aame be now read 
the first tlaa. 

Motion egreed to and bill read the firet time. 

n. sntAHOS'. The purpose of this bill is to provide 
that before two persons can be married they muat proeuce a 
oertlficate from a qualified phyalelan stating they have taken 
a blood test for the determinetion of eyphills. Thera Is a 
provision made for cases of extreme urgency, where the hon. 
Provincial Secretary (Mr. Dunbar), with the pemiaaion of the 
hon. Minister of Bealth (Mr. Tiwlan), nay issue a aarriaaa 

HON. a, B. DQIBAB (Provincial Secretary): Mr* 

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Mr* OuixbAr 

8p«ak«r. I b«g laar* to present to th« Houae tb« foXlovlng: 

*!• B«t\irD to SB Order that thare ba laid bafor« 

tba House a return showing, in eaoh departmeBt 
of Ooyernment : 

1. The nujDber of eaployeea who have reeeired 
aalary inoreasea aa therein aet out, aBd 

Z, The total number of auoh eBployeea. 

*8» itoturn to an Order that there be laid befor« 
the House a return showing: 

1. What is the total amount of fire insur- 
ance premiuBa paid eaeh year on all 
Goyernaent property in Ontario, and the 
amount of fire losses reeorered eaeh 
year during the past forty years, ate* 

*9» Beport of the Liquor Control Board for the 
year ending Itaroh Slat, 1944. 

•4» Twenty- fourth Annual Report of the Public 
Service Superannuation Board for the 
fiscal year ending laroh Slat, 1944. 

*6. Beport of the Board of GoTernors of the 

UniTorelty of Toronto for the year ending 
June SOth, 1944. 

*6(, Orders in Council under the Guarantee 
Companies Securities let and Seetlon 70 
of The Judicature Aet. 

*V. Order a in Council partaining to the Depart- 
ment of Sducation.* 

MR. 3PBAKSR: I recognize the hon. Beaber for Baaaz 

North (ICr. Alias }o 

MR. A. NSLSON ALLBS (Bsaez North): Itr, Speaker, I 
rlae on a aatter of public iaportanee, to bring before the 
House a topic which waa the aubjeet of a great deal of die- 
cussioc la ay own conatitoaBcy and around flndaor* 1b general* 
Thla matter la being aade the baeia for wioh unfaTourable 
erltiolam of thia OoTernment, and, therefore, I think it 
only fair to bring it before the OoTernMnt at this tiaa. 

A few weeka ago hotel oanagera were told the lav 
pertaining to wooen waltreesea in beer parlours would ba 
enforced. Thla law, aa you are all aware, waa relaxed, do* 
to the labour shortage, juat shortly after the baglnnlnc of 
of the war. It appears now thera la no loBger a labour 

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- 683 - 9^5-48 

Mr. HUB 

shortage, and tha reason gl ran for enforelng ttala law was 
that thasa Joba of dispensing beer were required to ba 
handad out to ear Teterana of tbla war. Thla night hare 
baaa a noble gaatura, Mr. Speaker, if you oonaldar suoh a 
Job aultabla for our war heroes and a Just reward for their 
aaorlfleaa. It might have been a good geature bad It not 
been for the faet about two weeks later the beer quotas la 
Windsor were drastleally siloed, In some oases as Buoh as 
sixty-eight per cent, and the services of war Teterana 
reeently hired are no longer required, and aerrloe aan la 
Windsor are glrlng thla the *raapberry,* and I am aincerwly 
hoping this will not be typical of the plana Bade in thla 
House regarding the poatwar eaployaient problem, partiealarl7 
In the caaa of war vetarana, 

I ahould Ilka some farther Information and aaauranee 
on this point. 

n. SPBAKIB: I recognize the hon. member for York 

North (Mr. Mltehell}. 

10. 0. H. MITCHILL (York North): I also rise. Mr. 
Speaker, on a matter I feel la of public importance. It 
has been brought to my attention a number of men are beinc 
diacharged by Arthur 3. Laltch Company, Limited, which, I 
UBdaratand, la reeelYlng subeontracta from the Redfern Con- 
struction (Shipbuilding) Company on Fleet Street, by glTing 
tbaae men only two hours* notice inatead of the preacrlbed 
•even daya* notice under the Selective SerTlce Regolationa. 
Tbaae regulaiiona require a man ahall give acTen days' notiee 
to hla amployera, and, on the other hand, the employer ahall 
glwe the employee seTsn days' notice. 

TlM above-mentioned firm discharged these man on 
Wednesday, February 88th, after two hours' notice, and 
^cauae of thla faet I eonsider thla matter of aufficient 

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- «e4 - 3-A*ie 

Mr. Mltehtll 

laportano* to this Hou««, and •spceiall/ to tb« bon. Minister of 

Labour (Mr. Daley), to bring baforo tha Bouse at thla tlaa, so 

tnat tha hon. Mlniatar may taka any naoassary staps In orAer 

that this situation say ba raetlfiad -* not only this situation, 

but that othar aaployara aball dafinltaly know tha praetiaa aill 

not ba t Clara tad. 

I reoononand, and strongly urge, that tha hon. Mlniatar 

of Labour for thla proTlnoa iiHadlataly gat in touob with Mr. 

Mltchall, Minister of Labour for the Doninion of Canada^ vitb 

tha request that enployara be werned egainst reaorting to 

tha praotlca used by tbe aboTe-Bentioned fim. It doea sees 

to Be that now we are nearing tha end of tha war sone eaployara, 

at laaat, are only too willing and anxious to take advantage of 

their employees. I eannot speak too stron^y sgainst such 

praetioes, and If we are to sueeead In our poat-var projeata 

full eooparation between employer and e^>loyee suet be Bain- 

talned at all ooats. 

MR. SPSAKSR: Tha hon. aeaber for lindaor-talkarTllle 

(Mr. Biggs). 

MR. WILUAM C. RIOGS (Tlcdsor-ffalkerTllle) : Z rise to 

as the hon. Chairaan of the Liquor Control Board two quastione. 

I would like to ask a question on a quotation froai tbe Toronto 

*01obe and Mall* of Saturday, and here la the quotation, in 


*l8 the alleged beer shortage 
•rgOBont began to grow to Queen *a Fark 
prcportlona to-day, R. M. fiarriaon, 
■iBdaor Star ooluBBlat, juapad into tbe 
aldat of It with a ooaaant on the allega- 
tion that London, Ontario, la now getting 
aore beer gallonage than la flndaor. 

"London bad tbe good sense to Tote 
on the right side at tbe laat prowinelel 

My question la, la tbere any diaeriainetlon aa reger4a 

tbia reasoB Mr. Barriaon gives? Z would like tha bon. 

Mlniatar to also break down how thla la working out, goioc 


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Mr. Blsga 

b««k to 104t, teMUM I Bight add, 194S, as ftr as flndsor 
w eoDoarnad, tMa ona of tha bualast parloda flDAaor 9rmw 
kad. Iba autOBoMla and Induatrlal-flald aapioyaant «aa 
tha largast In fflndaor'a blatory, so I do know thara «a» a 
larga Influx of paopia, and I would Ilka to aak tha apaakar 
thasa quaationa* 

HOK. CHARLSS DALBT (Mlniatar of Labour). ICr. Spaakar, 
aa tha hon. Baabar for York North (Mr. Mltctaell) first dlraaV 
ad a quastlon, or It may ba callad a request that I do soaa- 
thing about the question that ha raised, I think It la only 
fair to ask hlM If ha has sonathlng apaclfle to glre na on 
that question. Certainly I know nothing of It, and I 
think before I could deal with the Department at Ottawa X 
ahould hare aoaathlng aore than Juat a general stataaaat. 
I ahould have soma naaes of aoapanles and some naaias of tha 
■an who have aetually been laid off on aueh abort aotloa. 

MM. MITCKKLL: I ahall ba pleased to furnlah you with 
that inforaalon. 

BOM. WILLIAM 0. 1BB8TIR (Minister without Portfolio): 
Mr. Speaker, I shall be rery glad Indeed to answer tha quae- 
tlona of tha hon. meaber for llndsor-lalkervllle (Mr. Blgga). 
In faet, I walaoaa the opportunity. 

Aa anyone who haa ever been In Wlndaor knowa, they 
hawa a good many enterprises there operating under the naaaa 
of hotela that are prlaarlly for tha purpose of selling bear* 
Ihlla many of them are well operated, a nuaber of thaa laara 
a good deal to be desired in the way of nanageaent. 

It la the announced policy of the Board to do what 
It aen to clean up the present hotel situation, whleM has 
been the subject of a good deal of adTarae eoaDant. Pro- 
caedlnga along that line In llxKlsor»ln tha aonth of 

19W loaJkxif Bbotimq fmfu6 edi to mo ami (Leai* 
• 8V #a«KXoXq«* ftXeil'-lAli^ru/bnl baa olidooolue aifl 

•#••11* ;; IIM .rtM) lUioH Ji^oT Tol i^dAM .aod •tfl •• 

•■TB 06 T :tpd:}' ^eetrooT a bsffsn ad vas .t f to .naJ^tSAUD 8 ba 

Xiao ci : ;8»^p »^ i& outsit 

ao •« avis Qt ollioeqa snldtiooi esil iea o^ lial 

I Ifla ^? ^o sairl#ort w v r,-, fi^.j-ir^o ., . ijaaup . -. . 

I awft^o ja da»altaq«a •d^ iisiw i^ac*: '> I atol*tf ialdl 

o^a«a9<fala Xaisaas t eioar ^rad bluoda 

a4# lo e»aan aaoe ban aaiaaqisoa ** ^^aa a: iri bX. "- »^^ 

.aolloa ^toda ifaira r aaa^ z^iautoo 9^ ad oda naa 

dtiw BOX dalATul oa baasa. dite I :JJIRrtTIM c<M 

;(oilot^o? w la' 'jrTBSWr .0 MAI J J If .WOH 

-aaop ad^ laiiaaa oi f9bat beXg \ntaT ad Llat r©7(e»<T8 .iM 

• (*S8lA iM) alXiPia^ilsV'noebaif lol latfaact . 

idi aooox** I «r9fil al 

Xjbdt ^avoiul loebffil at aaatf t?v© pari odw «»nova« eA 

aaaaa edJ labau g ajae vi*ia 0003 a avaxi 

oiaad sfliilee "Jo eeoqii;^ a-x* ^«I* aXa:tod lo 

•▼••X aadt '1 r^ CisT arrn 31a rf 2^ lo vna/n aXfifS 

tariw o leofi edd^ lo YoiXoq baoat/oaaa ad:t ai ;M 

aad doidw jColtflL ., jneaaiq ad* qw aaaXo o* naa it 

-OT*I . ;tfl«iiiffioo ©eisTba to iaafj a lo t9«ld: ' aaad 

lo ri^aoai aj li ai aaiX Jar la esaibaao 

- eee - i»»-46 

■r. Wttbst«r 

F«bruary» thay were allooatatf the axaet basl^-year quota. 
Thara are, altogattaar, aaranty-aaTan hotala In llndaor and, 
In Mareh, of thoaa aaventy-aeTan hotals, forty-thraa hotala 
actually had ttaalr quotaa ralaad; aaraa quotaa vara laft 
Intaeti and tvanty-aoTen eatabllshmanta had thalr quotaa 
raduoad in varying amounta, tha nat raault balng that iha 
fflndsor over-all gallonage was reduced froa 66,496 to 
64,500, a cut of about four and one-half par oant. I hap- 
pen to have these figures baeauaa 1 gave them to tha llndaor 
Star this morning. 

I naturally have received vigorous protesta beeausa 
the quantities have been quoted In gallona. After all, tha 
gallonaga, over-all. In Windsor, Is quite Inazaot, but tha 
cut vaa quite severe. The object of the cut la not ao mueh 
to punish as to bring them down hare, that I may tell thaa 
what we want; and they are all coming down here on fadnesday 
morning. I will have a good opportunity to talk to tham. 
It will not take very many gallona to restore Ilndsor to 
tha gallonage they enjoyed laat year. 

How, as to the difference between llndaor and London, 
the population of fflndsor Is a little Indataralnat*. Tha 
Canadian llmanac gives It as 117,000. A really enthusiastic 
paraon from llndaor will claim it aa ona hundred and twenty 
thousand to ona hundred and thirty thousand. But, putting it 
aa one hundred and twenty thouaand. It may ba aaid to ba half 
aa big again aa London, which waa given last yaar aa aavanty- 
elght thousand, five hundred. So London enjoya a littla mora 
than half aa ouch aa llndaor* 

1 took tha trouble to look up Oahawa'a gallonaga whloh 
la aomparabla in tyre with the llndaor gallonaga, and I find 
Oaha«a*a la a lit;ia bit lower than London*a» 


tt > '&vaas.o 

Mr. l«b>tar 

■a ha 76 arrlTad at a flgura of alz*tantba of a gallon 
par capita, aa a figure vhloh aaa to be equallzad all orar 
tha proTlnoa, Vlndaor la running ovar saTaDtj-aaTan par 
oant. It ia pretty hard to gat them doan because of tha 
BttBbar of hotela. 

Tha uppaga in London waa forty-tvo to forty-aight 
and represents the lowest allocation of bear that there ia 
in tha province of OntariOo 

I think that covers it pretty well. 

UR, B. B. J0LLIF7B (York South): UT. Spaakar. bafora 
the Orders of the Day are called I wish to take the opportunity 
of expressing our pleasure at tha return to the House of tha 
hOB* liinister of Agriculture (Uro Kennedy}. I an sure that 
hia aany friends will be as glad to see bin here to-day aa they 
vara full of regret to se* him away because of the severe ill' 
naaa from which he has been sufferingo We will look for- 
ward to hearing from the hon. Hinlatar.aa aoon aa it ia poa- 
Bible, in reference to his own Department. But we are par- 
ticularly plaaaad to find that ha la able to be with ua at 
thia tlma during the aeaalon. 

HON. LBSLIB B. BLACKWBLL (Attorney General): I am 
axpraasing the appreciation of the Government at the return 
of the hon. Klniater of Agriculture (Mr. Kennady). It Is 
only necaaaary to look at him to see that hia condition waa 
greatly exaggerated in many of the reporta. ■• waloosM him 
back hare, and I aa aore we are all glad to have him return 
to the House. Ha ia one of the moat popular mlniatara of 
agriculture wa have aver had in thia province* 

IB. H. r. BIPBtTRN (Klgin): It la difficult for ■• to 
find wor^s with which to azpraaa my happlnaaa at aaaing tha 
hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) in hia place. Ha 
has always been most conaidarata of othera' vlava* Ho hoo 


- M6 - 9-5-40 

Mr* 8«pburn 

ofteD b6»n at my homo n«ar St. Thoaas* I •ztond • hearty 
InTltation to blm to oome back to Bannoekburn. I hop* h« 
will not use this In hla apeeehaa. I think I voloa tha 
opinion of erary membar of tha Houaa when I aay that ha ia 
in aTary sense of tha word one of Ood's choaan noblemen. 

le. A* A. laoLKOD (Bellvoods): Juat to make It 
unanimous, I want to confirm and support what the Leadar of 
tha Opposition (liro Jolliffe) has said, and what the hon, 
member for Blgin (Mro Hepburn) haa aald, with reference to 
the return to the House of the hon. Ulnlatar of Agricultura 
(Mr. Kennedy). 

I d> not know that it will, to any great extant, 
change the Tiewa of hon. members of the House, but I want 
to say that he is one man on the Government benchea who en- 
Joya the complete affection of all hon. members of thia 

MR, SPEAKER : I sea the hon. lilniater (MroKennady ) 
and perhaps we would like to hear hi a roioa for a Blnata* 

HON. THOias L> KBNKKDY (Miniatar of Agriculture): 
Mr. Speaker, no one in thia Houaa knowa how glad I aa to 
be back. If anyone wants to appreciate being in thia 
Houaa, he wants to be confined within four walla aa I hara 
been. fhile I was confined to my house I had many kind 
thoughts about the Oppoaitlon. I never thought ao much 
of them aa I did this winter. 

MR. aPBAKXB: Ordera of the Day. 

MR. OBOROK A, DREW (Prima Miniatar): Order No, it. 
CLSRK OF TBB HODSSt Mo. 12, Bill Io« 41, Tha 
Saeurities Act, 194S, Mr. Blackwell. 

BON. LS3LIK B. BUCKIILL (Attorney General ) : Mr. 
Speaker, if I bare your pamlsalon and tha parmlaalon of 
hon. BaBbara to do ao, in view of the prlnclplea of Bill 

- 669 - »-&-45 

Mr. Blaekw*!! 

No. 41, 1 will also dMl with the principles of Bill Ro. 42, 
and whan it oomas to moTlng that bill» I will make no further 
reference to It. Item No. 13, Bill No. 42, la ecBplMMntary 
to Bill No. 41. 

Thla Bill No. 41 la rathar an ancient one whlah haa 
caused gorernmenta heartaches for a number of yeara. !• 
only have to remember, Mr. Speaker, the South Sea Bubble, In 
our High School textbooks to realize that the question of 
preventing security frauds has bean one confronting legla- 
latures for a long time. Aa a matter of fact, It might 
Interest the hon. mambers, In considering this question, 
to appreciate that It waa only towards the and of the laat 
century that It beoame lawful to offer for sale shares of 
joint stock companies or, aa they are known In thla country, 
limited companies. Right at the close of the century, tha 
language of the Judiciary In describing such tranaaetlona 
waa moat critical. I remember In one reported case. In 
declaring the tranaaetlon of selling aeourltles to the 
public to be quite Illegal, the Judge used this azprasalon 
about tha purchasers. He described them as unfortunate 
dupes who chose to speculate In shares, resulting In their 
moral and material dlalntagratlon and hardahlp to thamaelTea 
and families. 

So you sea, Ur^ Speaker, thla la by no mesne a saw 
problem. I do wlah to add to that, however, thla obaarra* 
tlon, that until the Great far of 1914-1918, the queatlon 
of purchaslnc^ securities waa not one that angagad tha Intar* 
eat of the general publla. 

It waa confined to tranaaetlona batwean companlaa 
and 4aalers, on the one side, and what might be described 
as the sophisticated members of the public, those aeeuatomad 

- MO - 9-5-46 


to Inraat funds. And thoa* aophiatlaatad paopla vara aaeua- 
toaad, aa a aattar of praotioa In purchaalng aaourltlaa, to 
demand and gat, and to azamlne with tlia greataat poaslbla 
oara, proapaetuaaa oonoarning thoaa aaourltlaa, that told 
the matarlal facts on which tha Investor would fom bla 
4 udcaaat • 

HoweYarc with tha rasult of tha public aduoatlon la 
Inrestnants, by raason of tha Vlatory Loan drlraa la Oaaada^ 
the Liberty Loan drives In the United States, during tha last 
war, tha publlo In this country and In the United States of 
Aa*rlca beeane security conacloua. From the oloaa of tka 
war until the great market crash In 1929 we had tha picture of 
the public coming Into the stock market In a great way. let 
only the members of the public Investing funds in aaaurltlaa» 
but they learned the habit of speculation to earn the thln^ 
ealled capital appreciation; that la, a gain In the capital 
price of aecurltles. To do thla, money waa borrowed to buy 
apeculatlve securities that ware returning yields of about 
hmlt tha aaount of seasoned bonds, at rates that ware aeven 
to eight tlBaa the amount that might be expected to yield by 
aecurltles by way of Income. 

Tbat tranandoua praasure built up behind the stock 
■arket an Inflationary tendency, and with no aaana available 
In thla country^ at that time, to check lt» that la, no aeoaptad 
Inatrumant auch aa wa have to->day In tha Bazik of Canada, whlell 
can control credit, that bubble finally buret, aa did the South 
Sea Bubble. And that has reaulted, and I want to apeak plainly 
IB thla Laglalaturt, in tha oonaldarabla coafualon that follt 

There la nothing that the Laglalatura of tha Provlnoa 

- 691 - 3-6-48 


of Ontario can oonatltutlonally do to prevent public funda 
finding thalr way Into the purohaaa of aaourltlaa aad Into 
tha atook market here and elaewher*, 

I an told, and I am pleaao4 to hear It, that to-day 
thera la very little eredlt in the atook market. The large 
funda that are going into It and going into the purohaae of 
aeouritiea, are, I aB inforaed, oaah fundao But I do want 
to iopreaa on the nlnda of the hon. neabera of the Houae that 
tta«re la another factor in the province of Ontario that was 
absent in 19S9, and that la thla fact, that by reaaon of having 
Income taxes that have been Imposed for the purpoae of conducting 
the war, and apparently will be continued to be imposed for other 
purpoaaa ,many members of the public to-day are actuated by the 
desire to inereaae the amount of money they have to apend by 
apeculatlon, by taking capital proflta, vhieh are not aubjeet 
to incoma taxes, and to-day we have that further greater 
building up behind the investment pioture in Canada. 

The only agency that ean deal with that altuatlon ao 
far aa eredlt going into that markat and adding to Ita in- 
flationary tendency la concerned, la the Oovernnant of Canada 
acting through the Bank of Canada. And thla Legialature la 
quite unable to deal with that problem. 

Ihat thla Legialature can do la to provide, under 
Ita oonatltutlonal powers, regulatlona that regulate In a 
proper way the information that haa to be given reonle »hen 
they are offered eeouritlea for aale, and in aaaition to that, 
aa an administrative agency* employ the provlaiona of tha 
Criminal Code of Canada to put a stop, aa far aa possible, 
to security frauda. To the extent that that is well done. 
It will no doubt aaalat the general altuatlon. But I do 
want to make clear to thla Ugialatore at the outaat that 
there la no leglalatlon that thla Laglalatxire cen paaa that 

- 692 - 9-&-4S 

ean op«r«t« to atop a stock mark«t eraah. And this lagls- 
latlon la not introducad wltb the thought that It vlll 
aeooapllah that purpoaa. But I do want to aay that In all 
tha purchasing that la taking place to-day, in the flaal 
analyala the only profit that can ba taken Is ths actual 
oapltal Incraaac that la earned; and there vlll be the 
corresponding rceeaslon that la bound to cone. 

Mr. Speaker, In glrlng the Legislature a bit of bao^ 
ground froB which to examine thla leglalatlon, I vent to 
examine briefly the different typea of legislation now 1b 

In Britain they hare the British Coopanles Act, an 
Act which proTldes for proper prospectuses being laaued 
glTlng the material facts to purchasers of aeeurltlea* 
They also hare In Britain, of course, a codified Criminal 
Code, the same as we haTc In Canada. But recently the 
British House of Commona has seen fit to enact legislation 
whereby the provisions with respect to the criminal aspects 
of security fraud have been tl^tened up under what la 
section 12 of the British Act, and aa well the new legisla- 
tion proTldes for a ayatam of licensing dealers and proTldea 
also for a system of appeal from the Board of Trade* 

In Canada wc hare ten different companies Acts, and 
we hare also tha Companies Act of Canada, aa well aa a 
Ccapenlea Act for each province, and that brings up one of 
our conatltutlonal problema. We hare the strange picture 
that In our Dominion Companies Act there la a provision, 
aeetlon 77(1), whlob acta forth the Information ealoulated 
to bring out tha material facta that must be dlacloeed to 
a purchaser on the purchaae of treaaury aharea from a 
dominion company. That Act, by reason of our conatltutlon. 
Is effeetlTe only In providing that that Information be given 

- 699 - 9-f-48 


on th« first Isau* of aharca. Tha reauit of tliat la that 
vban tha abaraa ara purohaaad by an undarvrltar and ara 
rasold, there la no obligation that can ba lapoaad by tha 
Doalnlon to prorlda that from that point on tha facta httTing 
a aatarlal bearing on tha laaua shall be glren to tha public 
gtxiarallj on the distribution of that stock. Tha Doalnlon, 
on tha other hand, has the authority to enact through the 
Criminal Code what shall and what shall not ba crlB«a in re- 
lation to the sale of securities. That, of course, la cob- 
plataly beyond the eonpetence of the Legislature of the pro- 
Tinea of Ontario. 

So our position la that In Ontario we hare a Domlnloa 
Oeapaniaa Act, and we hare the Companies Information Aet» 
under which a prospectus must be filed with the Department, 
but under our present Securities Act and regulatlona thara 
la no requirement that that Information must be given to 
the public under the Securltiea Act and Beguletlona except 
in the caae of oil royalties and gaa royaltlea* 

We hare, of course, In Ontario In connection with 
the adminiatratlon of our atatute tha provisions of the 
Criminal Code, 

In the atates In the United States and in the pro- 
wince of Ontario there ara in the mein Securltiea Act which, 
without establlahlng the rules of the Commlaalon by atatute, 
delegate to offloiala the question of deciding what may or 
ney not be aold. le have therefore under the adminiatratlon 
of these Acts a situation whereby neither the public nor thoae 
dealing In tha securities nave any Idea of what sort of 
deeiaion will be mede, it depending upon the atate of acae 
eoamlss loner *8 liver at the time the decision la made. 

In the United States tney have the Securltiea Ixohajis* 
Aet, There the conception la one of full dlaeloaure of all 

- tW - 3-6-46 


the faota relatlns to seeuritles vhich must b« glT«n to tb« 
publlo before the public buye. That Act la based od a 
•ystem of proaecutlon for securities* frauda. 

There, Hr* Speaker and ■enbera, la the broad altua- 
tlon with regard to aeeurltiea* legialation vhleh thla Goyern- 
■ant found when it took office. Thla Goverxunent neeeaaarlly 
had to give regard to all the facts, for the proTlnce of 
Ontario la the financial centre of all the Doalnion of Canada, 
Hot only by reason of the faet that there la a market for 
Induatrlal securities here, but also by reason of the faot 
that thla province is one of the greatest mining narkats in 
the world, into which money for inrestment flows from every 
part of Canada and externally also. Also we had coming to 
Ontario people, many of them with a dubious reputation, who 
were anxioua to engage in buainess here because it la hare 
that the buainess is transacted. 

I would like to mention the type of securities with 
which we are concerned In this market. Thera Bight be fur- 
ther dlTlsions but I would mention the main types of 
securities dealt with in thla provinca. 

First, there are bonds and shares, securities which 
usually represent fixed and prior charges on acve gorernment 
or other enterprlae. 

Next in order comes atocks uaoally known as preferred 
•hares, which are prior charges In relation to iiqultation 
or the dissolution of the aaaata of a company and therefore 
•re preauaad to give much greater security than what ar« 
called con-jnon or equity shares* 

lext in order we have what might be termed eeesoned 
equities in industries, and also saaaonad mining stocks 
which are regarded aa a valuable form of investBant as 
distinguished from the •pecul^tlre stocks. Then we hST^ 

- 695 - 3-fr-46 


stooics that ar« dlatlnetly spaoulatlva botb in Induatriaa 
and In mining. 

Lastly «• hare tha highly apeetilatlTa aaouritlaa 
that ara issuad for mining promotion on undaTelopad mining 

Tha growth of tha great mining induatry in tha pro- 
▼inoa of Ontario has bean the direct result of the public 
being prepared to apeculata in these highly apeeulatire issues* 
It saana that *o ara prepared to takca a chanoa on loalng tha 
whole apeoulation in order to hare the opportunity of pur- 
chasing that last type of aecuritlea. It la as a result of 
tba vllllngneas of the public of this prorinca and people 
elsewhere who were prepared to send their money to thia 
province for such investment that funds and capital were 
found for our mining industry. Money vas thus nada 
available from time to time to keep our prospectors in tha 
field discovering and developing further prospects. 

Under the cireumatanoes I want to aubmlt to thia 
legislature that with regard to that variety of seouritiea 
and with regard to the hazard of the more speculative of 
these securities, there is no official competent or capable 
of determining what are the actual values that the securi- 
ties possess. The valuea are determined by results and by 
what the public from time to time think about the prospeat. 
I do say, though, that it la the function of governmant in 
aoncaetion with the aale of such aeeurlties to see that tlia 
paopla of thia province and elaewhere who are Invited to 
purchase these aeouritiea are told tha Baterial faata and 
%T9 given a fair and honaat run for their money. Under 
theae eircumstancas this Oerramaant aaw fit to appoint tha 
Boyal Ontario Killing CooBlsslon on October 27th» 1949. 
That Commission made an intarlB report at the tiae the 

- 696 - 3-&-4S 

Ut, Blmokwll 

L«gl8latur« sat Ust ytar» and 11; aaA* Its final raport 
•B Saptaabar 6tli, 1944. Tha part of this raport with 
which wa ara oonoarnad is Part II. Part IX gava that 
Oomlsslon authority to Inrestlgata and Bake reeoBaanda- 
tlons regarding regulations gorernlng tha financing of Bin- 
lag daTalopaants. In tha azpaatatlon that the CoobIssIob's 
report would shortly be available, In June of 1944 this 
GoTeroBent appointed a very able and highly regarded clTil 
aerTant of this proTlaoa aho was then Registrar under the 
Securities Conaslsslon as a coBBlssloner. He was charged 
upon his appointBent with two functions, after consul tatloB 
with the OoverBBant and with offlolala of the GoTarnment. 
7b» first function with which ha aas charged was the prepara- 
tion of a new draft Securities lot, and secondly with tha 
function of preparing a draft regarding the personnel aad 
practices of the CooBlssion with a Tlew to their raorganisa- 

At thia poiBt I would Ilka to take the opportunity of 
paying a tribute to Bill Brant, who unfortunately died before 
ha had the opportunity of really doing the Job that I tm eon« 
fldant he would have aeooBpllshad in hia new position. Ba 
had been Registrsr under the Securities Act of this proTinea 
for Bany years, and I know of no official of this GoTernaaBt 
who BBS Bora highly regarded both by the brokers and dealers 
and also by Beabers of the public with whoB he had to deal. 
At the tiBe of his death he had proceeded to the point where 
he had prepared a draft of a bbw Saauritiaa Act but ha had 
Bot then been able to prepare a plan for the reorganization 
of the DepartoaBt. 

It therefore beeaaa apparaBt to the GoTerBBBBt that 
unless the work was continued no legislation would be ready 
for this session. Consequently as Attorney OaBarai I vaa 

• 697 - 8-5-46 


appointed temporary Seourltlea Commlaaloner and undertook 
the eoBpletioD of the laglalation and planning the reorganiza- 
tion of the Departaent. 

I feel that I should say a few vords to the L«glalatura, 
Mr. Speaker, aa to hoe we proceeded. In the first Instanee, 
working with the departmental officials, various drafts of the 
bill were prepared until when we had reached the fourth draft 
we felt that we had a draft that sufficiently Implemented the 
report of the Mining Commission as to be worthy of examination 
by the people who would be concerned with the operation of the 
legislation. At that point we mttt delegations of the InTest- 
ment Dealers Association, the Szohange Brokers, the Ontario 
Securities' Deelers Association, also a group of dealers not 
belonging to any association but who were represented by 
oounael, alao financial editors who were Interested in such 
legislation, the prospectors' association as well aa Indl- 
Tlduals who had submitted to the Mining Commission briefs 
worthy of consideration. All these had the opportunity 
to consider and make recommendationa with regard to the 
legialation at its draft 4 stage. On the basla of that 
examination of the draft bill a fifth draft was prepared, 
and at thla point It was thought desirable thet the Securi- 
ties Cosoila si oners of the rest of Canada ahould have the 
opportunity of conaldering the draft for two reaaons : flrat, 
we felt that it was highly desirable we should have the bene- 
fit of their experience, and secondly, we felt that the 
nBenltles required that we should acquaint them with our 

At the meeting of these Seourltlea Gomlaaionera 
the meeting was clear on on* prlnolple, to atart with; In 
fact, otherwise we eould not have proceeded at all. Aa I 
aay, it waa a ataotlng of offlolala from all across Canada 

- 696 - 5-&-46 


none of whom had any po«ar to make oonmltn«nta or to bind 
his gorernmant, and It vaa understood at tne outaat ihat no 
effort would be made to bring everybody into agreenent. At 
tbat conference we were fortunate In haying present repre- 
aentatlTea of the Securitlea Izohange Conoalaalon who gave 
those preaent the benefit of their experience in methoda of 
prosecution under their Aets, which was of great benefit and 
was much appreciated by the Commlasionera present* 

•hat followed was a diseuaaion of the proposals con- 
taln«d in our draft Act. As a result of that conference I 
can say that it was recognized by all present that in the pro- 
Tince of Ontario we had developed a method of financing of 
both industrial and mining properties and that our function 
was not to change or reorganize that method but rather pre 
perly to bring it under control. 

It waa further auggested by the Commissionera present 
that what we finally decided upon in this province* by reaaon 
of the leadership which this province gives in financial 
■atters, would probably be what other Jurisdietions in Canads 
would do. 

Under theae eircumstances the conference adjourned 
and I feel I can say that it waa the opinion of everyone that 
the discussion had been extremely beneficial. I know that 
it was Indicated quite freely to us that our proposals had 
considerable impact on those present, and certainly we 
enjoyed getting the benefit of their criticiams and aug- 
geationa made by the different Coim&ls si oners with regard to 
our proposala. 

As a result of that conference and the suggestions 
«• received there we revised our draft bill and brought in 
a fifth draft, and having done ao, as we were approaching 
what we feXt would be presdoted to the begis^etwi^ %m t)M 

- 699 - 3-5-45 


form of • bill we again rooalrad delagationa froa all thasa 

bodiaa oonoarnad so that «e lal^t bava tba banafit again of 

their practical oritlclan of tha aatual workings of tha 

laglalatlon. As a rasult *a are prepared to present thla 

alzth and final draft which la tha bill introduced and nov 

before the Legislature. 

In the dealing with the principles of the bill, Z 

feal that the hon. menbara of the Legislature aould probably 

follow the disousaion to better advantage' if I took tha 

principles In the order in which they appear in the report 

of the Uining Commission and then Indicate in the caae of 

each of those reconmendatlons where it la followed in the 

legislation before ua, and if not, to what degree the 

legislation modifies the reconmendatlons contained in tha 

report. The first recommendation waa: 

*1. That the Securities Act 
and Regulations be repealed and that 
a new Securities Act be drafted con- 
aolidating certain provisions of tha 
present Securities Act and Regulations 
and, in addition, containing the 
necessary legislation to make effeotlTa 
the reoommendationa of this Commission 
aa harelnunder set forth.* 

That is precisely what haa been done by this bill and 
by the Prospecting Syndicates Act of 1945, with the exception 
that I ahould say now and will Indicate more speclflcallj 
later that all the reaOBDMoAationa of the report haTe not 
been atrlotly followed. 

The next recommendation waa: 

*£• That the adminiatrativa 
authority under tha new Aot be a part 
time oommlaaion of three man, appointed 
by the Lieutenant Oorarnor in Council, 
operating through a Ragiatrar appointed 
by the CooBiAalon and raaponalbla to 
aana, and that the paraonnal of the 
proposed Securities Cooclaaion be choaan 
to include one member skilled in law, 
one aaabar akllled in mattara partalo- 
Ing to dealing in aaourltiea, and oa« 

- 700 - >&-46 


maBb«r skllltd in the requir«Btnta 
•XKl conditions of the mining indus- 
tx7 including the financing of its 
dsTelopmsnt in Ontario** 

In the bill before the Legislature that proposal hm» 
not b«en atriotly followed. that has bean substituted for 
that is a thras'man commission. The legal member of it, 
instead of being part-time, will be full-time and will ba 
the ezeoutive Commissioner. It is proposed that the other 
two oomnlaaloners will be selected, one from among those 
skilled in dealing in securities, end the other, as sug- 
gested in the Comnission*s report, from among those skilled 
in the requirements and oondltiona of the mining industry* 

The next proposal waa: 

•3. That the office of 
the proposed Securities Commission 
under the new Act absorb all records 
of the present Securities Commission, 
and that. In so far as deemed nacea- 
aary or adTlsable by the proposed 
Securities Commission, the staff of 
the present Commission be absorbed by 
the new with additions to or changes 
in such staff as may. In the opinion 
of the proposed Coanlssion, be deemed 
necessary for the proper enforcement 
of the provisions of the proposed 
new Act.* 

That la being followed* The next recommendation 

*4. That pending drafting 
and enactment of the propoaad new 
Aet the following recommendations 
be made effeotlTe under the authority 
of the present Securities Act. (This 
flwission strongly reeonnends that 
where possible this recomaandation ba 
made effeetire without dalay.) 

It ao happens, Ur. Speaker, that that recaomendation 

liaa not been follawad for thla reason, that upon azaminatlon 

It waa found that the more algnlficant and Important pr»- 

poaala required legislation, and could not be done by ordar 

in council, and we did not feal that thoae angagad in the 

- 701 - 5-5-4B 


buainaas should b« subjaoted to haTlng to oonsidor regulfttioiK 

of • toBporary noturo that mi^t bo oban^d by loglolatlon 

within a matter of nonths, and so it «aa dooidod to brine 

tho wholo matter forward at ono time, in tho loglalatlon. 

Tho next rooonnendation *«•: 

*&• That under the proposed 
new Aot prevision be made for the 
following legislation and its enforce* 
ment by the Seourities Coamisaion 
•eting through its appointed Regla- 

*(a) The registration of all 
companies, syndicatea (excepting 
the $10,000 Prospecting Syndicate 
as horounder referred to), partner* 
ahlpa, brokers, salesBen or others 
who make a business of selling or 
offering securities for sale to the 

nien follows 5(b) t 

*(b) To allow application 
for registration to sell securities 
to the public only when satisfied, 
after study of the history of each 
applicant, with the integrity of 
such applicant." 

That is what the Aot proposes, and that is the present 

praetioe of the Securities Connlssion. Vhen f olloi s 5(c): 

*(e) To refuse application 
for registration to any person, other 
than those persons of good integrity 
serving outside of Canada in His 
Majesty's Armed Forces, who has 
not been resident or domiciled in 
Canada for at least twelve consacu- 
tive months prior to date of appli- 
cation for registration unless, at 
the tiaa of his application, such 
person is registered either aa a 
broker, aalesman or security issuer 
under the security laws of his atata 
•r province of origin.* 

That is being followed in the present bill. 

Paragraph 5(c) gooa on to aay: 

*Vbere the broker making 
application for regiatration ia 
a partnership these restriotiona 
to apply to all the partners, and 
where the poraon aeoking regiatra- 
tion ia a coapany, theao reatriotloM 

- 70t - 3-9-46 


to apply to tho directors and oblaf 
officers of the company, aa now 
defined under Part I» Section 3, of 
the Begulationa under the present 
Securities Act.* 

far purposes of clarity I should say that under the 
bill before the Legislature these people are not being reglstei*- 
•d Individually. Instead of that they are all being ccnaldored 
as to their suitability for registration. It the tlae that a 
••Bpany or T)artn«rshlp makes application they must be considered 
suitable, and thoae who become partners subsequent to registra- 
tion are not entitled to do business until the Commission haa 
had the opportunity to Investigate then. Then comas 9(4): 

•(d) To refuse the appli- 
cation for reglatratlon of any person 
where It appears that such person 
proposes to use or Is using a trading 
name other than his own, or that of 
his partner, or Is calculated to 
conceal from the public the Identity 
of the applicant.* 

Instead of literally fallowing that reoosaendatlon 
of the CaBBlsalon the bill contains a provision that the 
names of the companies and partnerships or persona trading 
under a naaa other than their own shall appear on all the 
atatlonery of the firm or partnership If they hold an Inter- 
est of ten per cent or more In the business. 

Than follewa 5(a) : 

"(e) That, when directed 
by tha Oaomlaslon appointed under 
the praposad Act, the Registrar shall 
daaand and insist upon any or all 
appllcaata far raglatratlon» within 
a apeolflad time limit, to deliver 
a band by a aurety company approved 
by the CMMlsaian and in such aaaunt 
aa the O^^laalon ahall require, with 
pravlalan mada far the forfeiting of 
auch band vhaa tha raglatered party 
haa bean: 

•{!) A party ta civil pra- 
eeedlngs In tha oaurta aa a reault of 
which final judgnant haa been given 
agalnat auch party in cannaatlon with 
a trade In a aeourlty where such Judg- 
■ant la bnaad upon a finding af fraud, 

- 703 - 5-5-46 


*(11) ftaere there has been 
filed with the Regletrer e oertlficet* 
•f the CeoBBlssion that prooeedinc* h/ 
or In respeot ef the broker or salesBan 
In respeet of whose eenduot the bond is 
conditioned hare been taken under the 
Bankrupt cy lot (Canada]^ or by way 
•f winding up.* 

The prerisions ef the bill dealing with the dlspesal 
•f the bond as a matter of faet ge aenewhat further than is 
proposed in the CemiQlsslon's report. There is also pre- 
Tision Mkdt for the return of any unused portion of a bond, 
and also what there has not been up to now, a provision for 
tenninating the bend when it is no longer required. 

Then OQMS reoenaeDdation 6: 

*e. Harlng eatablished the 
•bore pelioy in regard to registra- 
tion ef brolcers and saleaman, the 
records ef the present Stouritlet 
Cennlssion should be carefully 
exaalned with a view to having all 
reglatrations conform with the re- 
quirements of the proposed new Aet.* 

The bill as submitted oontaina, I think, in its final 
section, a prevision for the review by the Commission of all 
brokers and salesmen wno at present are registered* 

That brings up a question about which I should say 
■ aaething now. a great deal has been said In eertain 
quarters about the number ef people who are registered in 
this province as brokers and aalesosn who have •rinlntl 
reeerda. I have here exact figures and I think hen.Beabert 
•f the Leglalature will be interested to know that here is 
the picture ef total reglatratlona aa ef January 29, 1048. 

PrtHwff nft;«^frt<i 

Ttrant* Steck Izohange ft 
Xovettaant Dealers 

Asseolation 47 

!•« York ateok Izehange I 

Itontreal Stock Izehange T 

BoB-aaBber brokers ttS 

There ia a total ef 366 brokerage reglatratlona In the pro- 
wince of Ontario. Of thl i 966 there are apprexlaatoly — I 

,4 ^ ^ *■£ 


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aoas^lAa re tc 

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ian-^iclti) Bvarf odw aKCBsIsi! fr-e err* 

9t 919d ^«n 



^9tttat 9^ ■'i9l 9dt lo 


•^adozl floats sfiulf vM 

a^^atsoi estiTAidiof iiii^ x& x6;f(»J £ al 0aai;iT 

,ai:7B;}'XiO to oonlr 

- 704 - 3-B-4B 


d« not f««l tb«t I should dlaolosa caaos — 88 brokors wh« 
hoTo soat Bftrk •c*1b'^ ^^*b «ho would o«b* In ono or othor 
of tbooo eatogerloa. At somo timo In thoir 11 fo they ho to 
Aod orlmlnal convlotloc or they haro had a oaao of aokicg 
rootltutlon at aoao tlmo undor tho Aot or thoy hoTo boom 
proaoeutod undor sodne of tho provisions of our Aot aa 
opposod to tho Criminal Codo or thora xiare boon ooaplalnta 
about thorn fron the Unltod Statoa or somo othor proTlcoo. 
It Bight Interost the hon. membors to find that out of 
•11 thoae posslblo blaok martcs, cut of 366 brokers in tbo 
proTlnco, there are only 25 that hsTo suoh blemlahoa* 

My attitude has boon thla. All of those brokers 
ted roglatratlon undor previous admlnlstrationa in this 
province. Moat of them have boon reglaterod on and off 
for ten years or so. Tho ainple fact Is this, that ono 
•f mj prodooossors In office reviewed the initial appllca- 
tiona and elected to decide, rightly or wrongly » that tho 
broker In question, having regard to all the oireuBstsnces, 
snoula be given a lioenoo. thothor that decision waa 
right or wrong in tho light of tho cirouKatanoea that thOB 
existed, the fact is that If such a dsolslon was made a 
number of years ago ana sinoo that timo tna; man haa boon in 
buainoaa and there are no oomplainta about hlB, I boliovo 
auffloiantly in Brltlah Juatice that I will not drag my poB 
through nis noBo beeauae there la public oloBour I ahould do 
80, and aa far aa I aB conoorned tho roTiow of thoae regiatra* 
tions must take place under proper procedure and Buat bo aub- 
Jeo^ to appeal to a court in thla previaoo. 

OoBing to tho aaloamoa, thoro are opproxiBatoiy 1,317 
aaloaaon reglaterod in the prevlnoe and of thooo aolooBon — 
without repooting the whole atory over again -- there are 
about 18 who have aoso aark of greater or loaaor algnlf lo«|io« 
againat thoir record , and they, too, will be reviewed 

XXev -M 

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s»«<l •▼ad \»t 

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- 706 - 3-B-4B 


•eeordlng to tbe rule of law and British coneapt af Juatioa* 

Tha aavanth prapaaal la that racl*tratian be canoallad 

vhara fraud has baan preren. That, af couraa, la a aattar 

af praotloa undar the Act and I will oama to the prepesed 

practice presently, but It la perfectly obrloua that anyane 

balding registration, who has been proven ta hare caBmilttad 

fraud, should hare hia iloence cancelled, and that will be tha 

propeaad praetlca* 

*8o The prirlleges extended 
te $10,000 Prospecting Syndicates, aa 
presently defined under the Securities 
Aet of Ontario, should be continued but 
■ado subject to the following previsiona: 

*(a} Without the consent in 
writing of the prepoaed Cammlaslen, no 
$10,000 Prospeating Syndicate shall be 
filed or registered in which any of the 
organizers or promoters, directly or 
indireetly, are a party te the ayndi- 
oate agreement when any such persons 
have been refused registration or 
have had their registration suspended 
or cancelled, as salesaen or brokers, 
undar the previsions of the prepesed 
new Aoto* 

Bafere I eamment on that I ahall read the ethers that relate 

ta it! 

*(b) That when aeourities of 
a $10,000 Praapeotlng Syndicate are to 
be sold te the public full disclosure 
shall ba made te the prespeative pur- 
chaaar af all facts pertaining ta the 
cenditiona and terma ef the ayndioata 
agreement, before aala la aada , and 
aueh facts shall be filed with the 
praposed Registrar for the Canmlaaion 
bafare aeourities are offered for aala, 
and ahall be aada aTailabla en appli* 
oatlon ta any interested party.* 

Azul continuing: 

*(o) That, aubjeet to the fal- 
lawing azeaptlans, selling ef the 
•y&dloata saeurities shall be lialtad 
to Baabars of the syndicate who can 
qualify as boma fide prespeatars and 
da net atlca a businasa af selling 
aeaurltlaa ta tha publla* 


oxu o ; -B 

• ao. 
AelXeoaes 9d a^tSe 




. a*' B - 

•• V 



- 706 - 3-B-4B 


R«t«: f«r the puxpM* of this 

aod other rooMdMxidetlone in 
this repsrt s bone fids prss- 
peotsr is oonsldered te be a 
person who engages In ezpler- 
ing fer Talus ble mlnersls, 
or In tsstlng supposed dis- 
coveries ef saj&s. 

"(d) That where s stlesaan or 
broker who makes a business of solllBC 
seourltles to the public engsgss In 
selling seourltles of a $10,000 
Pr«*peetlng Syndicate, he be subjsot 
to sll the provisions of the propossd 
new lot covering salesmen or brokers." 

These reoonaBondstlons have not been literally followed 
lb the proposed bill. Instead of that we havethe Prospectors* 
Syndloste lot whereby the bona fldo prospootor can organist 
and oaa soil units in ss many $10,000 prospecting syndicates 
In any one year as he has property on which to base such a 
syndicate, providing he does two things: thst ho ststos In 
the syndicate agreement what the objects of the syndicate 
aro, that la, ths purpose for which It la to bo organltod, 
and, second, that there la disclosed in the syndlcats soy 
units Issued to himself or any other person for a oonsldora- 
tion other than cash. 

■1th that having been done he can file his prospectors' 
■yailoato aa ho has done In the past with the Securities 
OWBisslon end ho thon may freely soil his units on dollvory 
to the purchasers of units of a copy of tbs sgrooBont that 
sets out the terms of the syndicate. Now, that loaves the 
prospector In the position that if ho telle the truth In his 
agreement and It la for thla puipcao, then he la free to form 
and aell aa many aa ho llkoa, but under the Act, 
any broker or sslosman or anyone In the financial bualnoaa 
who orgaalsea such s syndicate or •■cagoa In the aolllnc 
of auoh a ayadloate, must oonply with the full terms of 
tho Ae%. 


ai eac 


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- T07 - >&-46 


I, what I haT* Mid tb«r« Is dirtetiy eontrtrr %• 

the n«zt r«e*mBaDd«tlon that I will r«ad in th« repart, 

whloh aayt: 

*(•) That na paraan shall ba 
parmittad to fain ar to partiolData in 
tba faxviatlon of mora than ona #10,000 
Praspaotlng Syndicate In any ana ealaa- 
dar yaar, the aaourltlas af vhloh ara 
ta ba effarad for aala ta tha publlo.* 

It waa oonaldarad, h»M9r9Tf that If tha $10,000 syadloata 

vaa atrlotly llmltad ta tha praspaetar wha la trying ta ralaa 

manay ta praspact ar to davalap what ha has alraady praapaetad, 

ha should ba fraad fras that raatrlotlon of ona par yaar and 

that tha public vara adequately prateatad fram tha paapla in 

tha finanolal bualnaas misusing such ayndloataa If they vara 

braught oaaplataly under the Aot and then it beoemes unlm- 

partant how many of them are farmad aa lang as they ara 

aald according to tha baais af the Act as If they vere shares 

iB a eampany. 

*9. (a) That a oapy of praspaatua 
aa now required under the prarisions of 
Tha Oaapanlaa laf eraation Aot af Oataria 
shall ba dallrered to each purchaser of 
securities of an Inoerporatad Uinlnc 
Syndloata vith capital not azoaadlnc 
|3C,000 as defined In Regulations under 
The Securltlea Act, Part II, 3ectlon 6, 
aubsaotlon (6), when auch saauritiaa ara 
being sold or offered for sale ta tha 
public, prior to the time any primary 
aalas tranaaetion takas place." 

That auggestion haa not bean follawad in the bill. 

In the bill the |3C,000 ayndloate, vhloh la Incorporated under 

The Companies Aot and really In effect la a little iacarparatad 

company, oemes under all the previsions of the Aot. 3o I 

vlil not ooBikent on tha praapaatora proTldlon of tha Act at 

this data. 

*10 (a) That dallrery of praapactua, 
in the form presarlbad under Tha Canpaniaa 
Information Act of Ontaria, ba made a rr- 
qulremant at tba time af tranaaatiana, 
and before completion of aaaa, in all 



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- 708 - 3-6-46 


prlaary saloa of mining seouritlos by 
persons registered under the prepoeed 
ne« Aot," 

At this point, I might sey that the report then gees 
on to point out what priaary sales are and prlnsry sales art 
described as being: 

"(b) Primary sales of securities shall 
mean and include: 

(I) When sale Is by or on behalf 
ef a ccnpany or 

(II) By or on behalf of any under- 
writer or eptlonee or 

(III) On any cash purchase made with 
a view to resale to the public* 

(It) Where such security was iasuod 
for consideration other than 

On examination of these recommendations there were one 
or two considerations that developed that made that hardly 
practical. Under that definition someone purchasing, for 
Instance, a limited number of shares froa an estate to re* 
sell to the public would have had to comply with all the 
prospectus provisions of the Act and so it was thought that 
what should be the subject of a prospeotua would be shares 
coming from the treasury of a csnpany, whether sold them 
or later, with the intention of distribution among the pub- 
lic, and also sooathing that is not touched by this; that is, 
where a broker or dealer aoqulres flocks of shares of a oov 
pany that substantially control that company and sells thea 
to the public, they should be brought under the prospeetus 
provision and ao primary distribution has been defined In 
the interpretation sootion of the Aet to meet the views I 
howo Just expressed. I will not give you a definition no« 
because you oan read it at your lelauro for oenmlttee purposes. 

I feel I should now come to what we have actually intro- 
duced In the bill to imploaent, 1 feel, in a very practical 

- 70« - >5-46 


way the prospeetus r«eoniMndatlon, and here is what is prw- 
pasad : undar tha prasent Saouritiaa Act tha CaaMlsaion ra- 
oaivas, axamlnaa and oanaants to tha aala of aaouritiaa 
and whathar the daaler or broicar or aalasfflan ia prahlbitad 
fram raprasanting ta tha public that thay are apprarad by 
the administration of tha provinca at tha tloa, tha fact 
ramsilns that unsorupulaua people ean sa represent Terbally 
without any passible ohanoe of checking such representation* 
and therefore It ia highly daairabla that there ahould ba 
remoTod from laglalatian of this province any thought that 
tha adffllniatratlon apprares any particular security. That 
is the first consideration. Therefore* the Act provides 
that in the case of a primary distribution, a statement 
giving material facta In the form required by the Commia- 
aion must be filed with the Commission and where the 
company has been in existence for a sufficient length of 
tioo to have one, It must also file a balance sheet and 
profit and lass statement to show where it is financially, 
and if it is a mining company it muat have a proper expert 
report on the property also filed. 

What happens at that paint ia, inatead of consenting 
te sale, the Canmilssion proposes that It will ozamlno that 
material and if that material is misleading or if that mater- 
ial falls to shew that the aalo of the issue will praduoa 
sufficient fuBda to carry on, to carry aut whatever the 
objeota wore stated to be, or if it is felt that the atato- 
■ant ia auch as ta coneaal material faota» the Coomlsaion 
alii net aeeept it for filing by the simple expedient of 
withholding Its reeeipt and without that raoaipt far filing 
the security oannat be aold. Tha Act takes tha oanoapt one 
atep ferward. It appraelatea that even on the moat oareful 
azamlnatlon af thoae atatamanta, etc., they muat be filed. 

- 710 - 3-5-48 

Mr. Biaokvell 

that fraud nay nat appoar until after flllnga hare been re- 

oelTed and receipt glYen, and at that paint, far the Tery 

aaae reason that that Camniaalen can refuse te aeoept by 

net giving its reoeipt, It can then atep a aale by an 

erder. Frem beth the refusal ta give a receipt and fraa 

atepping further sale, there is an appeal by all intereated 

parties — first, te the vhele Cammlssien and then.seeend, 

te a Judge ef the Appeal Ceurt. That Is what the bill 

oantaina by way ef implementing the suggested prespeetua 

prayisions oentained in this repert. 

*(o) That in all tranaaotions 
where delivery of a prespeetus is re- 
quired such delivery shall be can- 
aidered te have been made when 

(1) a signal aoknewledgment ef 
receipt ef such prospectus 
has been obtained by the 
seller, or 

(ii) the required prospectus has 

been sent to the purchaser by 
registered mail prior to the 
completion of any transaction 
in the sale ef securities.* 

If that construction had been adopted by the Act it 
would neaa that presumably delivery of thia atatement would 
bave to be proven in thia way. The Act has left it open 
to prove delivery in any way that actually proves that the 
statemant geta into the purchaaer'a hands and it laavea it 
to the broker er dealer to adept whatever buaineaa praotlaaa 
he Bay decide to adopt whieb will aaabla blm ta prove delivery 
but the Act not only requirea delivery but places the onua 
OB tba broker or dealer to prove that delivery haa takes 

Z tblnk I ahall atiek to the Ao%. 

*(d) Ibare a proapeetor aalls 
aaouritias lasue« to bin by a miaia^ 
eampaay or ayndieate, aa a considara- 
tiea for transfer of property, ho 
aball disclese to the purcbaaer at 

- 711 - £r5-46 


tba time af transaction* that tLa 
praoaada from auoh sala vill nat ba 
paid ta tha treasury af tba oaspany." 

I a- going to laara that propcaal until iatar and link 

It with tLe proposals that ara inada about aacrca baoauaa tbay 

are daalt with aooordlng to another principle. 

*(a) That 3eetiona 19 and 20, 
Part III, of tha present Seouritlaa 
Aet and Regulations, be embodied In 
tha propoaed new Act and extended to 
cover transactions In unlisted aecurl- 

That has been done. I might briefly explain that 
any of you who hara aver bought stock through an axchanga 
will reiaamoer getting a confirmation which indicated on tha 
fom tha stock, what quantity, the price and the commission 
and also from whom It was purchaaed. This suggestion mere- 
ly fflaana that a similar confirmation should go from tha 
broker or the dealer of any security not listed on the 
axchanf^ , whether he was aelling them as principal or 
owner or whetner ne had bought them for the customer aa 
agent, and that form of confirmation has been drafted and 
included In the statement. 

Mow, aubsectxon (f): 

"That when any security is 
sold or offered for sale by any broker 
or salesman, or their representative 
acting aa a principal, and when the 
proceeds from the sale of such security 
will not be paid to the treasurer of 
the company whose aacurltlea aro 
being offered for sale, each purohaaer 
of such security ahall raoalTa, at tlma 
of purchase, a written or printed atata- 
mant» Baking full dlaoloaure of the 
Intaraat of the seller in the prooaada 
or from such transaction.* 

That is covered under the general prospectus provision 

of the new Act. I hava already aiiuoad to that matter. 

No. 11 raada: 

"That Regulation No. 27 of 
tha Sacurltlaa Act of Ontario covering 

- 712 - 3-fr-46 


eall at rttsl4«net, In person or bj 
phone, be extended to Include lon|{- 
distance phone calls or telegraph 
aMssages in or eoanatini; fron the 
proTince of Ontario, and that such 
regulation be rigidly enforced.* 

That Regulation, which ia part of the lav of Ontario, 
juat as much aa if it had been included in the Act, provided 
that no one should call within the provicce of Ontario* un- 
less it vaa to a buainess associate or soneone with whoa 
the broker or dealer had been in the habit of carrying on 
aecurity transaetiona. 

That reconnendation in the Act, as drafted, has been 
in part followed, but there have been other roTislona of 
the section which I should mention. What haa been done 
is this: The ban on calling at residences in the province, 
or calling by telephone, has been increased to represent 
a ban on the broker or dealer in Ontario calling anywhere 
by telephone a person, either within or without the province, 
unless he was a business associate, or someone with whom the 
broker had been in the habit of carrying on tranaaotlona. 
But then, on the other hand, the section haa been Bodified 
anc varied. I feel, to enable this, that when a broker, 
having arranged to provide material as required under the 
new Act, receives inquiries in writing, anywhere, as to 
information about the security, or with relation to that 
security, he may telephone or may call at a residence. 
Anything short of that, 1 aubmlt, i« an unreasonable and 
irrational restriction on the rlghta of a citisen in good 
atanding to ao ousmesa, wnen ha has fully eomplied with the 
Act in every other respeet. 

No. 12 is in regard to thn new shareholders* regiw- 
try, and is not under the Compaiiies Aet or uBder thia Aet. 
It ia being attended to in a bill to be introduced pre- 






•a is 91 

- 713 - 3-&-40 


No. 13 reads: 

"That undar tha proposad nav 
Act, the CoBnl salon shall be glTan 
full powers to Investigate where 
there is a written, specific com- 
plaint of fraud in the aale or 
offering of securities for sale to 
the public » or, where direeted to 
do so on written instruction from 
the Attorney General of Ontario." 

That haa been implemented by Seetlons £5 and S7 of 
the proposed new Act. 

I feel that there I should indicate the difference 
in the two types of Investigation. First of all» parhapa 
I ahould state what the investigation is about. This 
laglslation ia legislation designed to prevent fraud in 
the matter of trades in securities. It was never intended 
that the investigating powers under this Act should be 
utilized againat people in business, to assist one side or 
the other side, by getting free examinations for discovery 
in civil aotiona having nothing to do with the trades in 
aeourities. 3a, in that respect, the investigating powera 
are limited to what they are intended to cover. 

It ia propoaed that the inveatigation will arise in 
two waya: The first method will be a complaint by a member 
•f the public, with relation to some specific trade or tradea, 
about which that member of the public coaplains. Instead of 
that person having to come all the way to Toronto to have the 
OeiBilsslon deal with the matter adequately, it ia propoaed 
to uae the Crown Attorneys in all the judicial areas in thia 
province, so that a peraon can go to the l*eal Crown Attorney 
and awear his complaint. 

At that point, one of two things aty happen. If 
the complaint and the evidence that ia then available vlll 
enable the Crown Attorney to proceed, then the Orovn Attorney 
■ay proceed without any reaouroe to the Commiaaion at all, in 



^ri 'T *«'>' 



V t^ r: O ■"; c 

- 714 - 3-6-46 


the usual and ordinary «ay. But» If It ■••«■ probabla that 
an offenca has been ooBBlttad, and. In ordar to aatabliah 
whether It has or not, an Inveatlgatlon aeema to be desirable, 
under the Act, then the Crown Attorney will simply forward the 
oonplalnt to the Coomlsalon, whloh will consider it for 

Hew» follewlng that Inrestlgatlon, It la proposed that 
It be reported to the Attorney Qeneral, so that it will be 
diapoaed of on this simple basis, that if the Inrestlgatlon 
discloses an offence » either under the Criminal Code or 
under the Ontario Securities Act, there will be a preaeeu- 
tlon ordered in the usual way. If, on the other hand, the 
InTestigation has disclosed no offence agalnat either the 
Code or the Act there will be no duress or any other impro- 
per pressure placed by officials on the broker or dealer 
wtae has get a clean *bill of health" as the result of that 
Investigation. That deals with an investigation that ariaes 
aa the result of a specific complaint by a member of the 
public in relation to trades in securities. 

The other section. No. 27, is designed to deal with 
these situations, that where the officials of the Ceoailaaioii 
have had brought te their attention, by reason of material 
filed, er by reason of advertisements appearing in the news- 
papers, or by reason of practices In general, when it aeeme 
that it le probable that any of theae may be because ef 
fraud going on, or breaches of the Act going en, then there 
Is authority, under section 27, fer the Attorney General te 
order such an investigation. That la why we have the twe 
sections -- one to deal with a specific ceaplalnt on the part 
ef the public, and one te deal with general oendltlona, but 
both of thea limited to offences under the Securities Act 
and the Crialnal Code. 

^eL(Se.\ ... 
oil J i- 






tiBq 6 


- 710 - 3-6-45 


S«otlon 14 reads: 

"That the finding of fraud b« 
followed by rigorous prosecution.* 

That, of course, cannot be a atatutory proTlslon. 
It is a question of practice, and I might say that the pre- 
sent practice of the Cominlsslon is to prosecute for criminal 

3eotlon 15 reada: 

"That provision be made 
UBder the proposed nee Aot requiring 
separate registration of all so-called 
Investment counsellors who, through 
circulars or other media, advise the 
public regarding purchase or sale of 
aeourltles. T^iat such registration 
be allowed only after the personal 
Interest of the applicant in any 
security, the purchase or sale of 
which he may advise or suggest, has 
been disclosed, and that a condition 
of continued registration shall be 
the disclosure of such personal 
interest at all times, when re- 
quested by the Commission.* 

That is the reconmendatloB that is directed against 
people putting out *tlpster* sheets, who are putting them- 
selTes In the position of, for compensstlon, holding them- 
selves out as disinterested advisers, having no conflict 
of duty and interest with regard to the person they are 
advising, and It requires these people to be registered In 
their practice, to conform with the old coomon law prin- 
ciple that no person shall conatltute himself an adviser 
to somabody else unless he fully discloses any interest 
which might be adverse to the Interest of the peraon being 
advised. It is proposed, therefore, to now bring In 
registration under that section, to classify and Include 
the people who give Investment counaal for hire, and %o 
see that undar the regulations of the Aot they will comply 
with the very aalutary ragulationa we have, which cover, 
we believe, all fiduciary or trust relationablpa. 




918 Y 

: efcee 


- 718 - 3-5-48 

Mr. Bit olni«U 

Uadcr th« at«tut« Itself » we bare* in fact, gone • 
little further then that reoonuBendation. There ie a 
aeetlon In the Aot which requirea that where aayoM in a 
flBenoial buainese pute out adTioe with relation to 
8eouritiea» they are required, either in writing or by 
oiroular, where the edrioe is giTen, to indioete thet they 
own that atook and are not acting as agents, but as the 
principal, and trying to sell it to aonebody, and that it 
ahall be so indicated either at the time the circular la 
laaued or in writing before the trade in securities la 
eonsummated, and again, the penalty uader the Act la pre- 
cisely the same penalty as for failure to deliver a proa- 
peetua, namely, that the purchaser has the right to reeclnd 
the tramsaction and the onus is on the broker in that case. 
Be slMll proTo -- which is a simple thing to do If he 
states it la a cireular or a simple thing to do if he puta 
It in writing — that he has disclosed that he is acting aa 
the Tendor. 

That ia nothing new, although it la oonaidered by 
aoae people in the inTcstment business as being an entirely 
new theory. 

The law ia always open, and haa alwaya been open, to 
being enforced in this fashion in the clTll eourta, where 
any member of the public belieres he haa employed aoaebody 
•■ an agent and Inatructa him aa en agent to do eomethlng 
for hlB for a comalaalon, the agent owes the member of the 
public the Tery best duty he can perform. If he ia a 
broker on the Ixotaaige, he may aot aooept, ia law, aa 
order to aell at a prlee, or aa order to buy at a price; 
irrespeetire of those orders, he atlll haa a duty to the 
member of the public, that if he ia iaatruotad to sell at 
*r* dollars he is atlll bouad to go on the Kzchenge end 

a ©aog < tofll at «8vsfl »w ,lie8;ri »tufBS* erf* rr»J!i«U 

a at aao^e str oA »r aol^osa 

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bne saaatfcxa . «x" 

- 717 - 3-5-4B 


••11 for the bast prloa h^ can gat. That !• hi^ duty to 
his ollsBt. If hl^ Instruotiou are to buy At • prlc^, It 
do«s not mean that ha must pay the price he la •uthorlzcd 
to pay; he muat go on the Exchange and buy th« stock at the 
cheapest price at which it is obtainable on tho Bzota^mge. 
Those are salutary rules at oammon law, and it la high 
time, in this province, that people who hold themsalres out 
as brokers, and act as principals, should be obliged to ob- 
serve the law and the Securities Act, and should be required 
to disclose to members of the public that they, in fact, 
are proposing to act in the best interests of the member 
of the public. Wa have embodied that principle as well 
in the Act. 

Nov, here are some things the Commission should 
not have the power to do. It should not have the power 
(a) to demand or sanction the making of restitution where 
fraud in the sale of securities has been found or admitted. 
With that suggestion I completely agree, and that sugges- 
tion has found expression in the present Act. The reason 
for it is obvious. No Securities Commission can obtalB 
from a broker or dealer restitution for a menbar of the 
public umlass it la a condition of that restitution that 
they remain in business, and remain iicaasad. So wbat 
happaas la nine oases out of tea where restitution is Bade 
the offeace is overlooked, restitution is permitted sad tha 
broker or dealer oontiauas ia business, and perhaps in 
•rdar to effect that very restitution he goes out and in- 
dulgea ia precisely the aaae practices all over again. Ha 
should cither abide by the proviaioaa of thia Act or get out 
of buslaess. Tha proposal uader thia Act is that where a 
broker or dealer la frauduleat or offeads against this Act, 
he shall be prosecuted ia tha same fashioa as if he had 




>iv a' 



8 ■iO\ 

' Pii r. 

a «i»a 



- 718 - >8-45 


brek«a ftBy other lav of the ItBd. This Aet eoBtempUtes 

there shall be bo more condoning of an offenca. If 

restitution la nada in the aasa mmj aa in naay other 

oaaast and haa a bearing on «hat senteaoe or fine the 

Judge Bay see fit to Impose » that la the place to do It 

aBd not IB our deeurltles Commission* 

Subseetlon (b) reads: 

"Regulate the flnaaclal 
aet-up of companies, partnerships 
or syndicates, or regulate the 
proportion between Tendor and 
treasury shares.* 

That, perhaps, Is not fully Implemented. I auat 

aay that I aa not prepared to hold myself out to this 

Legislature as being an expert on this subjeet. Anything 

that I may appear to know about It now, I merely learned 

In the eourse of considering these recommeBdatlona» and 

dealing with the people re the bill. But I can aay thia 

about the proposal to escrow; that since this Commission 

has reported 1 have yet to find one public body Interested 

In this proposed Act and its administration advlae me that 

*e could safely abandon the escrow of vendor shares by 

Blning companies. Those shares which, by reaaoB of the 

fact that the project haa little value until value la 

produced as a result of its development, are alwaya large, 

and If they can all coma on the market at the time when the 

treasury of the oompaay la being financed, it would seam 

that the financing of the development of propertlea would 

be retarded. What the Commlssloa ahould do — anc it la 

for the benefit of the bona fide prospeetora — la that 

UBdar the authority It haa, It ahould refuae to accept 

flllBga umleaa aatlafaotory eacrow or poollBg agreeBaBta 

are received, and the CooBlaaloB ahould aaa to It that 

there are a legltlaate aad proper number of free aharea 



yd ee - . 
to tfoess' 

=! f 1: 



e ee 


- 719 - 3-5-45 


go to the prospector at that tlma, which will aiabla hla 

to realize soaie reasonable part of the result of hla 

laboura, aad which will proylde hla with fuada to eaabl* 

him to eomtlnue his proapeetlng actlTltlea, aad Itare fr«« 

•hares for the be we fit of the boaa fide prospectora, aad 

that la what Is coatemplated In thla leglalatloB* 

Subseetloa (o) reada: 

* lata rf ere la agrecHaata 
betweea prlTate partlea or limit 
the rights of persoaa to eoatraet 
betweea themaelyes.* 

I feel Interfereace with the right of eoa tract, 
which I have ladlcated, la the oae I have already Indicated 
la the queatlon of escrow, and also which I have Indicated 
as belag a reasoa why the Coinmlasioa might refuse to give 
its reeeipt for the flllags which would eaable sales to 
take place, aad that the refusal to glTe a receipt where it 
is obvlcfua from the material filed that if the atook is 
aot sold the compaay eannot carry out the objeeta of the 

I will give you oae simple example. The attltuda 
of this Act la this: if fillags are made before the Cob- 
mlssioa which indicate that the sola purpose of the issue 
is to tske a piece of property that may have oertala 
geological fomatioB, but ao proof, aad the aole purposo 
is to slak one diamoad drill hole, if that is the stated 
purpose for selllag some securities to the public, thea 
I am prepared to diapose of it oa this simple priaeipXo. 
If they say, *Our object is to drill oae diamoad drill 
hole,* thea they have to Indicate that if the aharea are 
sold aa propoaed, the procsoda will ccbm iato the treasury 
la sufficieat asouats of moaey to drill that hole, ao that 
tha people who buy that stock oa the ooaaidaratioa that the 


SI- o» 

'■.or 0* 


eetT evee -xiM. 





STS ? 


batAo iQin^ 

:* Si 

- 720 - >5-45 


liol« b« drlll«d» «111 at laast bare their spaeulatloa aad 

kare the hole drilled. There the Saourltles Cammlssloa 

will haT* a definite job to ao, enioh caa oe aoae uaaer tha 

slBple rule of lav, that la aot caa lateadad to laterfere 

with the contract. 

^iubseetioB (d) raada: 

"Regulate the priee of ninlag 
aacurltles. The price should reflect 
the ralue the public place oa seourl- 

I might say that is a queatioa about which there 

ia a very subataatlal difference of opiaioa. A aumber 

of the Securities Coomissioaers throughout Caaada hare 

baea eadeBTourlng to do ;)u8t that. What they hare 

apparefitj^ lorgottea is tnis, tuat it is impossible for 

a Commlasioa to regulate, or to hare aay souad Judgmeat 

with reapeet to, the orice at which aa iasue of mlaiag 

aharaa may be sold. To-day shares are being sold at a 

basic price with the Idea of dolag some developmaat work. 

Soma money comes into the treasury; the development work 

la a moaest way proceeds i the. diamond drill goes down; 

it atrikes ore, thereupon the public attaohaa a value to 

those shares f and no Commlaslon can rule that those sharaa 

aoaiJi oe sold at a price. The nature of mining property 

varying so rapidly fixea the value of thoae aharea, ao that 

it beeomaa a theoretic rro-^osltlon which sounds very nice, 

out 18 a praciicax impose ibiiity, ana it is the feet that 

oertaia Jaouritiea CooBiaaioaers to-day in Caaada are try- 

lag to uphold such a rule, that comnanlea are being foraad 

ia Oatario to finaaoa aevciopfflaats la other provlacaa; It 

ia the very raaaoa why the brokerage buaineaa ia done here; 

it is the vorv reaaon why monay is seat In froa otter 

provinces to tne province of oatario to fli.aaoa propartiea 

situated elsewhere, and that vill be the easa uatll thia 



- 7E1 - 3-&-45 


absurd thlBg Is abaadosad, aad we hare no iateatloa of sub- 
mitting to this Legislature an attempt to regulate the valua 
of sharas by a Commlaalon. 

SubaeetioB (e) reada: 

* Order eaerovlag of 
Teador shares.* 

I bare lac^loated, Ur. Speaker, that the GoTernwBt 
In submitting the bill Is aot agreed that the aacroalag 
of vendor aharaa oan be aafely abaadoaad. We feel that 
Must be left to the discretion of the Commlssloa, ahara 
«• may try to have the public reaeh a reasonable agree- 
■aat» aubmlt it to the Commission, and If this agreamant 
ahould be reasonable, to aaa that In relation to mining 
ahares sufficient Is provided to the prospector so that 
ha may raealva a reasonable proportion of the Tender 
ahares of the compaay. 

Subsection (f) reads: 

"Insist In all cases upon 
absolute title to properties being 
held by mining organizations flnano* 
ing exploration or development of 
mining properties, through publla 
aale of aeourltles -- requirements 
for title to be at the dlsoratloa of 
the Commission or Its representatives** 

And the aana applies to industrial organlzatloaa. 

One of their legitimate purposes for ralalng money la 

acquiring property, both mining and Industrial, and the Act 

has taken this proposal into account, and reoogalsaa that tha 

way to control that aspect is on the other simple rule 1 have 

atatad. If the object of the Issue la to aaqulre eartala pro- 

partlaa, then it ahould be evident to the CcBBisslon when the 

sale Is allowed to go forward that the Issue for sale la to 

acquire the property, and that, I feel, la quite a aatlafactory 

protection, and the present rule la quite uaaacaasary If the 

other one la Introduced and enacted. 


—<itse to aottas^ 
ewXar srf* stfi_ 


r ttr -, ^ ■ /-. r- *=■ 



ao e 



evari I 
s. . 


. 7£S - 9-5-40 


SubaeotloB (g) rsads: 

"aet up Any regulations 
which are not Incorporated la the 
proposed Act or approved by the 
Lieutenant ^^overnor in Couacll, 
and that any reguletlos so approred 
shall also be approved by the 
Legislature within thirty days, 
or if the Legislature is not then 
sitting, within thirty days after 
the opening of the next folloelng 
session » and shall be Incorporated 
In the Act." 

When that proposal was made the Royal Uinlng Cosnis- 
sioB» of course, was ignorant of the fact that we would hava 
in Ontario an Act called "The Regulations Act.* I, however, 
wish to say this to hon. members, that I am completely in 
accord with the principle stated, that where the experlenoes 
of the Oovernment and the Legislature have proceeded to a 
point where legislation can be crystallized into a statute, 
it should not be found in a series of regulations; it should 
be carried into the statute. The proper field of delegated 
legislation under a statute is to prevent regulations to 
be made with regard to those things which will be variable 
under the statute, and which are necessary to prescribe 
from time to time under the statute. But the important 
substanoa of law in so fsr as It oan ba crystallized, 
skould be found In the ststute itself, and I feel that 
hon. members will find that that is so in relation to the 
present Act o. 

Now, in view of that feet, I would suggest to hon. 

members that they themselves can read the remainder of the 

report. It haa not been lBpleBtanted,for raaaona I kava 

ststed. It goaa on about releasing present sharaa la 

aacrow, and so on, with the exoaption of the final oaa 

which I will read, ana tnat la: 

*rull provision should ba 
aada in the propoaad Aot for direct 

appeal to the oourts from ell mliaga 





e. <* ri ii ri 


oi Baoi 

-J 3V ad IX iw 

edi'io&STq o 


.ilea Ou s-aeaaus UxiJ^ 
Qdi to lofiiiisrasi 

»ao Xeai'i ©it^ to c :)x« « w ,so oe &fi£ ,wc 

^ si 'eot 11 i^^ I n- 

&:^iLiJt lis mo^t etiuoo ■ ^ 

- 7«3 - 3-5-48 


or dtolslon mad* by the CoBBlt- 
slon or Its rapresoBtatlTa* 
uadar the proposed Aot«* 

Well* wltk regard to anything la the statute, any 
order or ruling that the CooBlsalon Bakes, what happans 
Is that ruling Is made In the first plaoe by the Bxeeutlra 
of the Commission. Then there Is a review. If ao desired, 
by the person affeeted, by the entire Commission, and If 
he a not then aatlsflad, under this Act he can go to a 
judge of the Court of Appeal on a record, and I feel that 
the appeal sections of the Act as submitted will commend 
themselYes to hon. members. 

There, Mr. Speaker, are the proposals In the Royal 
CoMiiaslon's report, and I have indicated to you the degree 
to which these proposals are implemented by the present Act. 

I now have a series of principles that are alao 
incorporated in the Act, but whioh are not found In the 
Royal Mining Comlsslon's report. As these principles, 
and as the propoaed practice of this Coomlssion, will take 
■• a little longer than the next few minutes to deal with 
in principle, I will suggest to the Legislature that I 
dlaoontinue at this point what I have to say on second 
reading, aa I have come to a very logical dividing point, 
and with your permission I ahall resume when we return to 
aaooad reading. 

I move the adjournment of the debate on aeoond 
reading of Bill No. 41. 

llstion agreed to and debate adjourned. 

m. SRAKIR: Ordera. 

HON. GBORQl 4. DRBW (Prime Minister): Mr. 3paaker, I 
think thia nay ba a good time to move the adJournBent of the 

HON. S. B. JOLLirn (Leader of the Oppoaitlon): Would 



ti bae 

a c 


ay'i ' 

^IT! ai ■QR 


•fid;t K^ 

aq er 


iW 6c 


,toA Ja»B©ig dd.T 
oalfl ©ie J fill" 

ll^iw lee:: 



M srniT*!) WSHCi .A 5' 

B OU ^J: 

blijoW '. { no ti i.e. 

- 784 - 3-&-46 


the hon. Primt lllnl«t«r Indicate or oonflrm the buslneae 
for to-morrow? 

MR. ERSW: We shall proeeed with the debate oa 
the Speech from the Throne aubjeot alwaya to what may 
arlae hefere. I da not meaa what may be Introduced by 
ua, but Introduced elaewhere In the House. 

MR. A. A. MaoLEOD (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, I 
wonder if the hon. Prime Minister would indicate whether 
it is the Government's inteation to hold night seaalona thla 


MR. DREW: Mr. Speaker* I ahall amnouace that in 
ample time for the Legislature. I have not taken that 
into consideration as yet. 

Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 
five o'clock p.ffla 

(Page 740 followa) 


I ,1' 


.■ T' "J r C 

OK ■;»? • 


^ * w 

- 740 - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, Uaroh 6, 1945. 

Honourable Villlam J. Stewart, C.B.I. 

Tb* Houae loat at 3 o'clock. 


]■• SPXAKIR! Presenting petitions* 

Beading and receiving patitions. 

Presenting reports by oooutittees. 

Iffi. JiiffiS da C. HKPBUBS (Prlnae Idward - Lennox ) : Ur. 
Speaker, I beg leave to present from the standing Cosaaittea 
on Private Bills their first report, and moTe its sdoptlon. 

GLBK OF TBI BOUSI: ICr. Hepburn (Prince 2dvard- 
Lennox) , from the standing Committee on Private Bills, pres- 
•ata tlie first report of the Committee, as follovs: 

"Bill (No. 2), An Act respecting the Town of Barrla. 

"Bill (Ho. 6), An Act respecting the City of Vood- 
. stock. 

"Bill (Ho. 6), An Act respeotlnc tha Incorporated 
.Synod of the Diocese of Hlagara. 

•Bill (No. 10), An Act respecting the ZrangaUaal 
.Lutheran Seminary of Canada. 

"Tour Coomlttaa begs to raport tha following Bills 
.with certain amendmants. 

•BUI (Ho. 3), An Act respecting the City of fellant. 



c &* 

act} mf mt 

•n Sta«U««k« OW<rf 

- 741 - 3-6-45. 

*B111 (No. II), An lot r«tp6otlng the City of St, 
. Thomas . 

"Your Comaltta* would reoosuaond that tha faaa lata 
the panaltlas and tha actual cost of ];>rlntln£ ba ra- 
mi ttad on Bill (No. 6], An Act raspaotln|( tha 
Incorporatad sybed of tha Dlooasa of Niagara, and Bill 
(Ho. 10), An Act raspeoting tha Ivangilleal Lutharan 
Samlnary of Canada, on tha ground that thay ralata to 
religious Institutions* 

"Ordered, That the faaa lass the penalties and tha 
actual cost of printing be remitted on Bill (Ho. 8), 
An Act respecting the Incorporated Synod of the 
Diocese of Niagara, and Bill (No. 10], An Act reapaet- 
Ing the Zvangelioal Lutheran Seminary of Canada, on 
the ground that they relate to religious Instltntiona.' 

Motion agreed to. 

MB. SPSAKB: further reports. 

MR. HABRY A. 8TIIABT (Kingston) : Mr. Speaicar, I bag 
leave to move the second report of the atandii^ Committee^ and 
■ova its adoption. 

CUBE 07 THE HOOSK: Mr. Stewart (Kingston), from tha 
standing Cocnmittee on standing orders, presents the second ra* 
port of the Committee, as follow*: 

*0f the Ontario Music Teachera* Association, praylnc 

that an Act may pass authorizing a change of name to tha 

Ontario Registered Music Teachers* Association, and 

authorizing tha passing of by-laws respecting the govern- 
oant of the Associationo 

"Of the Corporation of the City of Ottawa, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing a change in the Const itu- 
tlon of the Board of Governors of tha Boyal Ottawa Sana- 

"Of the Corporation of the City of Petarborougli, praj^ 
Ing that an Act may pass authorizing the establlahmant 
of a body to be kno«i as the Peterborough Meotorlal Com- 
munity Centre and the issue of debent\ires to ralaa 
|7S, 000.00 to aid in the construetloo of the first unit 
of such Centre. 

"Of the Corporation of the City of Peterborough, pray- 
ing that an Act may paaa authorizing the establishment 
of a Civic Hospital and tha issue of debenturaa to tha 
amount of $600,000.00 In connection tharawlth. 

"Of the Corporation of the City of Kingston, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the estibliahmant of 
a Community Centre and a variation in the texBS of a 
oontraet for rental and sale of property to Hlald Bros., 

"Of the Corporation of the City of Port Arthur, pray- 


:) 9&t SDltoeqifc 

62 el •sss? e 
i>0B ^ao^sai 

n.j i»^ 

m #e.' 

ttxiii' £>iLB sex 

. H:(L;.-rrr .t7; 



>ffxevo3 f*'^ 



97 om 


ijj J -u 


, sola 

'lA *lo<T 'Jo Y^iO 9.a-. 

<0 3di 10" 

_ 742 - 3-6-46. 

lag th«t an lot aay pats authorizing the iaaua of 

dabentures to tha amount of |17S,000.00 to aid in 

flnancizig an aactansloe of th« Ganaral Hospital of Port 


■Of the Corporation of the Tlllaga of Swansea, pray- 
ing, that an lot may pass autttorlzing the said Corpora* 
tlon to purchase a certain water aaln on Sills AYenue 
from the City of Toronto aaA to purchsse certain water- 
works plant from the TovnaJiip of Yortto 

"Of the Corporation of the Township of Crowland, 
praying that an Act may pass authorizing the Petition- 
ers to make a grant of |10,000.00 out of Its sorplns 
funds to the Welland > Port Colbome Health anA Sa- 
creational Centre. 

*0f Branch Mo, 51 of the Canadian Legion of tba 
British Bnplra Service League, praying that an Act may 
pass vesting in the Petitioners the title to certaim 
lands in the City of Niagara Fallao 

"Your Ccmoittea reocamends that Kula #63 of your 
Honourable House be suspended in this that the time for 
introducing Private Bills be extended until and inclua- 
Ive of Wednesday, the 14th day of Uaroli next. 

"Ordered, That the tisn for introducing Prirata Billa 
ba extended until aind inclvisive of Wadneaday, the Llth 
day of Uaroh next.* 

Uotion m^pMBA to. 
Iffi. SfSAiORt Motiona. 
Introduction of bills. 

Iffi. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Ontario) i Moved by myself and 
seconded by Ur» Siggs (Windsor-Walkerville) that leave be given 

to introduce a bill intituled "An Act to amend the hours of work 
and vaoatloas with pay Aat, 1944," and that the aaao ba now 
read for the firat tiaa. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tiaa. 

BOH, CHABLBS DALSI (Minister oT Lidbour): Would the Hon. 
MBbar eluoidau a little bltt 

MB. WILLIAMB: The intaat of the bill la maraly to pro- 
vide greater clarity in the interpretation of the present bill, 
as well aa to provide two weeks' holiday with pay inetead of 
one week. 




:!••» eixo 

. 748 - 9-4-4S. 

IB. aOBIBf UkinzSB (Ottura laat) : Mr. SpoalCMr, Z 

bag leaT« to oove, aeoonded by Mr. OllTer (Or«y Soutb), to 
Introduce a bill Intltiilad *An Act reapaotln^ the Royal 
Ottawa Sanatorium", and tna aaaa to be raad fox Hm flrat 

Motion agr««d to and bill read the flnt tiaa. 
MB. BOURD B. BROIN (We Hand ) : Mr. Speaker, I nova, 
aeoonded by Mr. Boblnson (Port Arthur) , thai leaye be glTWi 

to Introduce a blU Intituled *An Aot reapeotlt:^ the Toan- 

ahlp of Crowland". 

Motion agread to and blH read the flrat time. 

MR. CHARIBS A. STRANOX (3rantfard) t Mr. Speaker, I 
move, seconded by Mr. Connor (Hamilton Saat) , leave be glran 
to Introduce a bill Intit-ulad *An Act to amend the Venereal 
Dlaeaaea* Prevention Aot, 1942," and that the same be read 
the flrat time. 

Motion agread to and bill read the flrat timm, 

MB. CYBIL OVERAIL (Niagara FaUa) : Mr. Speakar, I 
more, aeoonded by Mr. Rlggfl (Windsor WalkarvUla) , that 
laaTO be given to introduce a bill Intituled "An Aot Respect- 
ing the Canadian Legion of the Brit 1 ah SBVira Servloa League, 
Branah SI*, and that aaffle be read the flrat tiaa. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the flrat tiaa* 

BOH. OBOBQl B. DQRBAB (Prorlnolal Secretary) : Would 
the hon. ■aiaber give ua an explanation, or what la the InteotT 

IB. omCRAU.: The Intent la to oonTay the ownerahlp of 
aartain landa oa whloh the oluhhouae atanda. At the praaent 
tlBO there la a (lueatlon aa to In whose handa the owner ahlp 
ahould lie, and there haa baan, for acne tlaa, an arguaaat 
or aooa confllction or opinion aa to whether or not the City 




- f 4« * 

Mr. OTtraU. 

of Hlagara Falls ahould ovn Xh% laoda and thmj •boifl.d b« 
taz-fraa or whathar thm Lagion Itsalf should hava owDerrtLlp 
of thate lands, and thla Aot intanda to clarify that agraa- 

MR. RIROID R. SCOTT (Peterborough): I ZBora, second- 
ad by Mr. Stavart (Kingston), that laaye be giren to Intro- 
dnoa a bill intituled "An let respecting the City of Patar- 
borough** sad that saEsa ba read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tlaa* 

W. 7RID. 0. ROBINSCIf (Port Arthur): I nora, secoad- 
ad by Mr. Brown (Walland), that leave ba glTan to introduoa • 
bill intituled "An Aot re spec tint, the City of Port ixthux", 
and that saoe be now read the firat tlna. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the firat tiaa. 

MR. IIIUAM DEHilSOli (St. David): I would moTS, 
aeconded by Ur» Harvey (Sault sta. liarie) , that leave ba given 
to introduca a bill intituled "An Aot to aioand the Publle 
Health Aot", and that same be now read the firat tlaa* 

Motion agread to and bill read the first tins. 

Iffl. SBmiSOtl: I woxad liJca to explain that thla bill 
will glva the local uidioal Officer of Health the right to 
■ay idian a furnaoo In a hona ia in a bad eondltion or whether 
the furnace emits giaaaa inside a building, that might have a 
bad effect on the health of the inmates of that building, and, 
also, he may state, if a furnace burns refuse and glvea off 
offensive odours, that that Is a nuisanoa under tba aacticm 
of the Health Act. And. fxirther. the bill would allow any 
local Sohool Board to nave aaolcal treataant of pupils, as 
veil as the isere lnsp«tlon,aa thay now have in the case of 
dental treatiaent and Inapaotloa* 


tAir##« ,' 









37 Tt*e 



- 745 • 3-6->45. 

Mr. TlTlan. 

^ HOV. B. P. TIVIiK (Minuter of Health) : Mr. SpMkar, 

not haying aeen the Aot, I aa unabla to oaka any atateaant, 
but I wleh to reaerre that for a later data. I would Ilka to 
point out, howaTer, that in school prograaBaa oonoeming 
dental cara, or aohool child progravftaa, the prorlnea con- 
trlbutaa certain auna of money frca tlao to tine. The quea* 
tlon whether the propoaal of the hon. member la In order, - 
I wish to reaerve my atatement on that. 

MR. 7BEI). 0. ROBINSON (Port Arthur): I mora, aeconde4 
by Mr. Brown (lelland) , leave to Introduce a bill Intituled 
"An Act to amend the Public Health Act", and that the saBe be 
read now the firat time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the firat time* 

HON. B. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): May we haTW 
an explanation? . 

MB. fBB). 0. RCEINSON: The Act would simply, Mr. 
4. Speaker, enable Boards of Health In citiea of four thousand, 
or OTar, population to have a representative from the Board 
of Education sit on the Board of Health. 

I think. In view of the fact school children are ra-> 
calving more and more attention as to their health, there be- 
•eaaa more need for a tle-iQ> between the Board of Health ant 
the Board of Education. 

MB. SPXAKflti Jurthar bllla. 

MB. HABBT A. STSTABT (Kingston): Mr. Speaker, I move, 
aeconded by Mr. Soott ii'oterborough) , that leave be given to 
Introduce a bill intituled "An Act reapeotin^ the City of 
Kinsaton", and that aaaa be now rea4 the firat tlaa. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the firat tine. 

MB. HAROLD R. flCOTT (Peterborough): Mr. Speaker* I 

■" ^ ^ r 





f^'^a .* 



- 74« - 3-6-45. 

Ur. Soott. 

■OT«, ■•oondad by Ur. Stewart (Kingston), that leaTe b« gli 
to introduce a bill Intltulad "An Act respecting Peterborova^ 
Civic Uoapital*, and tliat same be now read the first tlJM* 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tlas. 

MR. CHARLSS B. UILULRD (York lost): I fl»w«, seconded 
by Ur« Casselman (Nlplsslng), that loave be given to intro> 
duce a bill Intituled '*An Act respecting the Village of 
Swansea", and that the same be now read the first tias. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tlat* 

(Pag» Ho. 747 follows.) 

'i^ torom 


.etc " 
aebncoes .avoir: 1 




. 747 •• 3-6-45 

UR. SPSmB: Orders of the Day. Th« hon.lClnlst«r 
of Public lorhs* 

BOH* QBOr.QI H. DOUCKTT (Ulnlsttr of Public forks: Ifr* 
flpaakor, tho other day, in nqr abaanca, the hon. oaabar for 
St. Andraw iMr. Saleberg) mada a atataownt ragsrAinc tha Pub- 
lic forks amployaas of this govarzunent, ajod I aould Just lika 
to correct that statement, and say that during ttim last two 
yeara or mora tha mala oarried workera on tha claaning ataff 
racaivad ^1,445.00. Nov, thoaa are tha paraanant vorkars; and, 
aa in other departments, if there is a little extra aork to be 
dona, the eaqployaes do it< I have heard no coiq>laint froia tbaa* 
And that is tha case for the Department of Public forks aa 
veil as for the Dapartoant of Highways, They sst leave of 
absence or sick leave, and are paid for it. They alao get 
their weeks' holidays with pay. The unoarried nsn gat |1,275.00; 
aarrled woman, ^73<00; and unoarried voiDsn, | BB9^. llS.Oo 

I might say that the day workers gat tha aaae rate of 
pay as the night workers. The da/ workera work 44 houra a 
weak, and the night workers 35§ hours. Woaaa, 27 hours. 
But I mention In ragard to night casual workers. The casual 
workers g»t paid for every hour they work and their rate of 
pay was increased on April 1st, 1944, for men from 60 cants to 
65 cents per hour; women, from 45 to 50 cents. And, aa I 
aaid, regardleaa of whathar it is 27 or 37o they git paid at 
that rata. 

Mow, there is another point which i would like to 
correct, which is quite In error. Ha atatea, «I an aorry to 
aay that this group has addreased a letter to tha Hon. 
Minister of Public works (Mr. Douaatt) in January to which 
ha hsa not replied." l aay that thla is qult« la arror falsa 
and untrue. I never received a letter, nor did any ■aabar 
of mj Departnsnt rocaiva a latter, froa that ff'oup. That is 


J to 



'^. is'?i V 


Ou t 

si 7X 

• iJ" 5 W ■■ 


<>X JB 

:© ai 


XM to 


BBS - 748 - 3-6-45 

Bon. Kr. Douo«tt« 

ail I have to aay. iAd I hope this will oorr«ot that 
false 8ta tenant. 

HON. flHriBLKa DAUCT (Minister of Labour): ICr. Speaker, 
yesterday tlie Hon. oeaber for North York (Mr. George U. 
Mltohell) directed u question to me In regard to soom Bta 
In North York who had been dlamlaaed from their work on but 
a Tery short aotice, — two nours notice. 1 find that these 
Ban are In the construction Industry, and the regulations 
setting out seven days' notice from either aaployeea or 
•Biployers, does not apply to the construction Industry. You 
can quite understand that aany things In the construction 
Industry nay not last seven days. Hoveverj I have taken this 
■atter up with both the company and the Union and they are 
In entire agreement that no rules have bean violated, and that 
the company has established a practice under the Bolldaya 
with Pay Act and the 3tamp Scheme, and these men get the 
stamps for the work they do. And there have been no regulations 
violated In this case. 

MR. OSOHGK U. MITCUSLL (North York): Mr. Speaker, may 
1 call the Minister's attention to the fact that thaaa man tera 
Bade a statement acooapanled by their signatures. One Is a 
valve fitter, and another Is working on water governors. That 
does not aound like oonatruction work to ae. 

HON. CHABLii^J DALSY (Minister of Labour): It la oonstruotKm, 

Mfi. SPIAKXA: Orders of the Day. 

HON. QlOnS A. DREW (Prlae Minister): The first Order. 

CLSiOL 07 TBI HOOBIt Aasualng the Adjourned debate on the 
•Bf»&dB«nt to the motion for the consideration of tba Speeeh .of 
the Bonoorabia the Lleute&ant-Oovernor at the opening of tiM 
Session. Mr. Drew. 

HGV. OKMQB A. bSKM (Prlae Minister): Mr. JpealDir, 









IB TXierrr. 



il) Tl 


9&.t no e#B 
io. ri— 

fiasiaeqc; .oK 




-749 - 9..e-4S 

Bon. Mr. pre*. 

before I reaame X3iy reatrks on the debate, may I on belialf of 
the meabere on thla aide extend a cordial neicona to the flon. 
MBber who haa returned to hi a aeat ahoviag that thara la 
no Injury suffered from limited diet. In faot, I think ha la 
looking better than 1 have aean him for a lonf tlma. la only 
hope that the experience ha haa had and the oontacta ha haa 
■ada will proTlda aoma aource of interest to the maBbara dur- 
ing the aesalon that followa. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not propoaa. In aplta of tha 
fact thttt there already have been dlTlalona In thla addraaa, 
to attempt to cover the whole field of the remarka of tha Hon. 
leader of the opposition, because actually there will be a& 
opportunity, under other proceedings, to deal with most of tha 
subjects that he raised in a fairly comprahanslve and, I might 
uay, not unduly complimentary analysis of the program whleh 
succeeded our taking officea. 

In his address, the leader of the opposition placed 
aoma amphaaia on the fact that our undertaking, which happened 
to be the first point In our program, to maintain brltlah In- 
atltutiona la not met merely by establlahlng cloaer bualnaaa 
and other contacts of that nature in Britain with Canada** 
aanlor partner. 

It la aarprising the number of tlmea In which I am 
in complete agreement with the leader of the oppeaition, and 
thla la one of tham. I oould not agree more heart llj tlUA I 
do with that atatamant. The oaintananoa of the Brltlah 
connection and of Brltlah inatltutlona are separata and dia- 
tlnot aubjeota for dlsousalon. 

The leader of the oppoaltlon aald that one olHuniotarlatle 
of British Instltutiona is a aupremacy of Parllaaaat. llth 
ttet alao I agree. I have aada It clear, entA ao that thara 





- 750 - 5-«>45 

Bon. Mr. Drew. 

vill De no douDi I repeat tnat wo recognize tt^e full autnor- 
ity oT this Legleleture to determine whether or not we eon- 
tlnue to govern wltn the XdOglslature oonatituted ee it is. 
That decision will rest with the Legislature, not with us. 
Heoognlzing British instltutiozia, as we do, we will accept 
the deoision of the sB^orlty of this Legislature, -- 
naturally, «e will accept that decision, — as to whether 
or not it is their wish that we ecotiuue to govern. 

But the governnent has an obligation to this Legis- 
lature and to the people of Ontario for guiding the course 
of baslnesa in this Legislature, and also for the legis* 
lation which is adopted. That also is an accepted p^irt 
of British ^rliamontary procedurjs and Is an established 
part of the coiistltation of British government. 

The oourae whicn is oeiag followed oy soias of tho 
Bsmbers In this Legislature does suggest the desirability 
of restating our position cnoe again. We believe that noth- 
ing should turn the attention of this body in the business 
that Is done and nothing should divert public attention from 
the ooaduot of the war^ and we believe that nothing should 
lessen the ataosphere that goes with acceptance of all that 
that implies. We believe that it la not the wiA of the 
poople of Ontario to have an election when the aaln oonoera 
of every thoughtful persoa 1* tha welfare of our fighting 
■on and woaen, and the hope of early vletory which will brlaig 
theia back to us. That was our position prior to the last 
election. As leader of the Opposition at that tia«, I 
agreed on behalf of the 0p;:o8ition to as extension of the 
life of tais i<egisiature, uuc 1 inaioatoa ^uite clearly tnat 
we were prepared to extend its llfetiow during the contin- 
uation of tha war; and that agreaaant aet with the approval 

Bon. lfr*Sr*«. 

of all whoB 1 ma aasooiatad. la lotlaatad that «a vara 
willing to ooDtlnua that aouraa undar that arraaganantf but 
agr pradaoesaor In offloa dacidad otharwlaa and rafuaad, aa 
waa hla right. 

MR. HARRY C. NIXON (Brant): Mr. Speakar, may X aak 
a queation? Did not avary conaarvatira aaobar of tha Lag- 
lalatura rota againat that extanaion? 

Mr. DREif: Ondor tha c ircxuzifltancea which azisted. 
Undar the oirouostanoaa which nad previously aziatad wa wera 
willing to continue that arrangioant; but cirouaatanoaa had 
arlaan in tha naantima which made it quite different. I do 
not need to naJce any diatinction between tha present leader 
of that group and the nan who waa the former Premier of 
Ontario* liut at the time that tha Premier who la now 
leader of the Liberal group had stated his position, that 
was acceptable to us, and wa expressed our wlllingnaaa 
to have continuad that arrangaiaent. After that time, tha 
position seemed to be a littla different, both betyean 
the leader of the Liberal group and the gentleman next 
to him. 

HR. KIZON: But up to that time there waa that 

IB. OBIW: Tea, unaer the conditions existing. 

le. ▲. WILLIAIG (Ontario) Mr. Speaker, whan tbat 
agreeuent waa aade, waa thera any public announcenant of Itt 

m. XBIfft The uambar was not hare at that tioa. 
There had been a change of Praialera, — aa a mat tar of fact, 
thara had been two Praalara within thraa aontha. 

IS. UMUlBD B. JOLLIFn (Leader of tha Oppoaitlon) tlhraa of 


3BW :^i;-''! 

Htm. is cl'iB 

t«ftn i on 

.-isaa .Hii 


- 762 - »-ft-48 

Boa. Mr. Dre«, 

HQV. (OOaZS ▲. DRSW (FriM Minlatojr): Tes. I do not 
question the fact that under the oirouDatanooa, itxloh vera 
wall known to the Bon. laoaber for Brant (Mr. Blzon) wa 
changed our poaitlon. we aaaumed office aa leader of tha 
government because we beliered It vaa the opinion of tha 
country thut there should be no election* ffa believe wa 
have governed In a way that meeta with the approval of the 
great majority of the people of this Province; because we 
accept the supremacy of the Legislature. Unless we have 
the aupport of the majority of this Legislature we will 
have no choice but to follow the usual course of procedure. 
Any other course would be contrary to the establlahed In- 
stitution and would be contrary to the best interests of the 
people of Ontario. 

The leader of the Opposition haa aald that the will 
of the majority must govern. That was our believe at the 
time we assumed office, and it is our opinion today and we 
will act accordingly. 

There is another clearly established principle of 
British Parliamentary practice, and that is the xresponalblllty 
of members for statements they make in the Legislature. 
This is not the place for political attacks and counter 
attacks. I am not going to repeat the extended diacuaalon 
which haa taken place already about the narlts of our party, 
which haa nothing to do with the business of the Legialature 
here. It la the desire of the goverxaaent to conduct the 
bualneaa of the Province of Ontario In a Banner which la la 
keeping with the seriousness of the buslneaa of the dajra throucb 
waxen we are passiog. Moat of the noBbera of the Leglalatora, 
Including the leader of the opposition, have eo-operated whole- 
heartedly In that oourse. But there are other a who have 






I ax 


- 7» - 3-6«45 

Mr. Drew. 

not; and the gOYeriuaent would have no ohoio* but to tak« 
appropriate action if any concerted effort atiould be oaln- 
talned to dlerupt the orderly despatch of business in this 
Legislature. The rattling of dead bone» and the satis- 
faction of personal vendettas aay have their plaee on the 
hustings but they have no place here where the business of 
the people of this Province is being conducted. 

The leader of the opposition hae very properly asked 
what we would do at a Dominion- Provincial conference. I 
can answer that very simply; and I point out that our course 
in connection with a Dominion-Provincial conference has not 
been any new course adopted since we took office, but was the 
course followed for sometiizie prior to that, when aany of the 
members here were members of that group. Now, please let us 
have that quite clear. The Hon. member for Brant (Ur. Nixon) 
has quite truly stated the course we followed, when there was 
a change in the Premiers. The previous premier had followed 
a oourse that did cocanand respect and continued support of the 
members of this Legislature, pertioulariy in regard to the 
oontinuation of the course of the war. Changes took place 
which it is not necessary to review in detail, unless thsre 
is any call to do so. But we, long before the tlBS that an 
election was called. Introduced resolutions aaking that there 
be a Dominion -Provincial conference, and that the Domlnlon- 
Provincial conference should be called for the purpose of 
establishing the basis of our co-operation between that govern- 
ment and ours. 

There are many fields of legislative actlTity whieh lie 
▼ery clearly within provincial authority and under which new 
obligations must be assiuMd whioh ean only be wndertataa 
following a readjustment of the taxing powers of the different 




BB 8 

. 754 - 9-6-45 

Ur. Dfm, 

gorferniMnts* There are many post-var aotlTltlea, parti- 
oularly reHabliltatlon and reconatraotlcm vUloti oalled for 
the Joint action of tbe Dominion and nrovlbolal govem- 

It Is our desire to ooablne the full leglsIatlTe 
powers of tue DOBlnioa and Provincial gnuf iiMiit ■, in tn« 
beat Interests of the people of Ontario and of the whole 
of Canada, in such a way that plans for joint action 
aay be eatuDiisned upon the firmest possible founaation, 
and that no subsequent constitutional disputes may up- 
set the arrangeaents made in that way. 

In doing that, we will remember that we are the 
trustees of the rights of the people of Ontario, and that 
any agreements which are reached and any plans which are 
made must respect the fundamental rights which were 
ftsettred to us at Confederation. 

▲s I hLve already stated In Xliia Legislature dur- 
ing the Session, we will approach these probleaa as we 
will approach any other problems, with the recognition of 
the fact that we are, first of all, at all times Canadians, 
and that the happiness and prosperity of the people of 
this Province depend upon the growi&g happiness and 
strsngtn of tne wnoie of Canada. 

In spite of anything that may have been said to the 
contrary, every request we have made for a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference has been couched in terms of ihe ut- 
most courtesy. The personal attitude of any MHiber ct 
this government toward any member of the Dominion gerem- 
mfsnt, or of any other govermment in Ganada, has nothing 
whatever to do with the visdoa of holding such a Conference, 

now does it offer the slightest Jastifloation for delay in 
arranging a meeting which is si vitally mocossary* 


>te amr ^ 

CC • 755 • «-&-45 

Z should add out thing aor*. •• h«T« Hid* It 
•l««r that we do not ballara all our problaaa vill ba 
•olTtd at aay oca oaatlng. ▲ j9%r a^o I proposad tha 
aatting up of a Domlnlon-ProTlneial Joint Planning 
CoHilttaa. It haa baan said that wa failad to eo-opar- 
ata with tha BoalnioB OoTarnaant in raqnaata vhiah vara 
oada for aaaiatanoa and inforaation In preparing fisr 
•uoh a Confaranoa* Hothing oould ba farther froa tlia 
tmth* Wa furnished a^ry ain^a faat and all 
•tatlatiaal inforaation called for in preparing for tha 
Conferenoe. Our records, hoverer, are here in Toronto, 
not in Ottawa, and wa did take the position that «a 
aould furnish any information which was required very ■nali 
batter from here than through an official sent to Ottawi 
who would not hare all the reoorda with him. Mo proTinee 
co-operated more fully, and It should be recalled that it 
vat upon the re que at of this GoTarnment that tha 
invitation went out to the other prorlnoaa to Join in aaoh 
a Conferenoe. That waa clearly established by tha fact 
that in writing to tha prorlnoial Praaiara, tha Friaa 
Uiniatar of Canada enoloaed a eopy of ay letter to hla tat- 
ting out the purpoae of the Conferenee. Theta facta 
ahould be placed upon the raoorda in riaw of atataatntt 
which have been oade. So complete waa our effort to eo* 
operata that on the rery day whan the Priat Minlatar of 
Canada announced that there would ba no Confaranea until 
after a Dominion election, the Provlnalal Traaaurar waa la 
Ottawa for the rery purpoae af aaaisting in oo^platiB# 
certain essential details. I ahould alaa recall that in 
tha reason giTwn for delaying the Conferanoe which had bean 
jptBlaad, the Prima Minister of Canada did not place hia 
refusal to call the Conference upon any auch baaia, but 


a •bail' '^-c'-t' 

«r jsif* flolfisotr «]1* fnLnf ft ^atftO al #oa 

esrr^TQicr oSf -c :w afrtoo^E erf* fls OTtfrf too blaoM oifv 

MLt'X*! oxfl ,at«X»»i^ I^ 0-:^ ail^ q# ^alitvi at tMAt 

-;»•« a,. - lattaX -^ t« xqof» " r **-."-« aJbaa#0 "to i«^ftJuxilf 

a;fiiio»t«r« to v«iY ni &l ^' I>aoAX<t at ia 

•"Oa o;^ 3 ;.v. . w ^^ aaw alaj ^a&aa ne»d arari ilolilv 

lo la^alalM aaUiS aii^ aaciii ^i^ t9«7 9dt ao t»dt ataia^o 

Xll oO oa ad Mrov aicad^ i»At bmoauoajxB bAaomO 

ai aa« -i^vjBM&in ,- .^-.-.* «.-> -t- i--)exd aokaXkcfl a ica^la 

aaXcaXqsoo nt a^i^aiaaa ta aaoqiufq tiar a avaS'^^O 

aaart oaXa f>L^c»&» I .zLia:f&b Xalifaaaaa aia^-caa 

aaed Jbail dotdM aoaa*re^ao5 a^ aizl^aXaft tot aaria xxoaaei aa^ 

aid aaaX^ tza btb abaoBO lo aa^faixt^ mt'il Biit ^bBBtun^ 

*ffd (aJtaatf ilaifa \:aa aoqi? aaii«««lao9 aifa^ Ilao ot lB&tni»x 

OC - 756 • 6»S->45 

plAo«d It upon the ground that In • speech t short tlaa 
before I hed left no doubt that I bellered it eould be 
in the beat Interests ef the people of Canada that «e 
hare a new Prlae Minister at Ottaee. Ihile mj oonTie- 
tion in that respeot has been strengthened by suoceedin^ 
events, it vas no ground for refusing to oeot the other 
goTernnents In a general discussion of those things «hloh 
are necessary to bring together in a combined effort •• 
and it certainly vaa no lack of co-operation or no on- 
willingness on our part to combine the full legislatiye 
authority of all our governmenta. 

Now that it is evident that a Dominion election 
Is atlll some distance in the future, the need is nor or- 
0»nt than erer for a Dominion- Provincial Conference, or 
at least for a meeting of Premiers which I suggested as 
an alternative three weeks ago — a suggestion whieh, I 
nay say, meets with the approval, I believe, of every 
other Premier in Canada. I do not believe there can be 
any excuse for postponing such a meeting until next fall, 
which would now be the very earliest that it could take 
place if nothing is to be done until after a Dominion 
election* I can only repeat with the utaoat e^phaais wtet 
Z have said on several occasions. Is nay face disastrooa 
consequences in many fields of public activity, unless 
pXaaa have been made before the end of the war for some 
joint action by the Dominion and the Provincial Qovernaenta 
in all those vitally iiq>ortant activities In which they have 
a coBBon Interest. 

Prom some remarks whloh have been oBde in this 
Legislature, it seeoe possible that some of the aaBbejrs aM 
BDt yet aware of how many questions which have to be decided 



9m .xiaj 


ifji.. . 


ac - 

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iQ a< 

tT«r .^Tr-i^i 

ed iiao © 


j8 ei 



-i'j oy 

J«4w ?• i 1 "j-^ t; ■^ 

eiJBi ■'isffl eS 

ffiaos To^ isr srft ^. 

mmi x^iti 

:MiXi &£kS 'iQ ai 

^ Btdt at BJsasi as&u, mf&si ^smv s3Limii»-Ti <«ao8 i&cx'i 

CC - 757 - 6-9-45 

by joint action of the Conf«r«no» and whloh do d«p«nd 
upon such « ■••tiac. First of all tlMr* la tha faa$ 
that each of tha provlnoaa has tranafarrad to tha 
Dominion GcTarniaint Ita aoat Important taxing povara 
•0 that tha financing of Canada* a «ar affort could ba 
carrlad out ooat affaotivaly. Ihen the war enda, tbOM 
agraaaanta will also coma to an and, and aaoh of tha 
fBTarnaanta ahould know bafora that tiaa Juat what tax- 
ing atruetura la to ba aat up to maat tha obllgatlona 
whloh tha eoTarniaanta nust aaauaa. It la all vary wall 
to aay that tha aolution of problaaa connaetad with 
aoolal aaeurity and the parsonal happinesa of our paopla 
will not bo found in any mara raadjuatmant of taxing 
powara. That is true^ Bat It la esaantlal that «a know 
which govarniaant Is going to do aach particular job and 
how tte fflonay is to be raised to do it. 

Apart from the readjustnant of taxing powar and 
agreaoent aa to the way In which social aeryicas can beat 
ba handled » there are a number of other vary iiq>ortant 
aubjacta upon which It la of the utjaost Inportanoa that 
thara should be full agraamant bafora tha end of tha war. 
Lat ma glTa just two axamplaa which will show bow naceaaary 
It la that preliminary discuaaiosa at laaat bagla without 
further delay, 

Lat ma take the case of immlgratloB* It has baan 
aaid by aooa that iomlgration la a aubjact with whloh tha 
proTicoial 0»Tarnmanta haipa no concern. Tha tmox la that, 
both In law and practice, tha proTlnolal. coTanaantt haya 
a great deal to do with lanlgrmtloB. Bf Hn Brltlah North 
iBMrioa Act, the ProTlnclal and Oomlniom QoTVamaata were 
given concurrant power to paaa liglslition daaling with 
laagratlon. That la atlll tha lav. mit what la a<iually 


'«/, » 



* ISCTk 


CC -7S8 

loqportant is that from the praotical point of rl«v tta» 
prorlnoial ^Temoants mist asstma mr/ haavy rasponaibilltj 
for thoaa who cona to iiva vitnin tnair ooujidariaa. The 
new cltlzan who ooaaa to lira hara la vary mob aora oon« 
oarnad with thoaa thinga whloh aoBt usdar proTlnoial 
Jurlsdlatlon than ha la with thoaa things orar whleh tha 
Domiulon GoTornaMnt haa authority* for that raaaoa it la 
not only tha right but thaduty of tha preylnalal eoTanaant 
to know what plana ar« balng aada In regard to 

In Tlaw of aoaa mlarapraaantatlon and mlaimdara tend- 
ing —- alnoera ml aundars tending In many caaea — there haa 
been In regard to the position which haa been talESn in regard 
to iomigratlon, let me point out that I hare never at any 
time, on behalf of thla GOTarnnent or persons suggested any 
plan of imnlgration irtiieh would go into effect until we had 
assured the re-enploynent of our Yeterana end worlcers 
In the Bunition faotorlee. The position I haye taken la 
that when the tiaa cooes for immigration we should hare plana 
which will assure the rery best type of new citizens in this 
pro Tinea, 

That is one reaaon why I an very greatly concerned 
about the refusal of the Dominion GoTemoant to enter into 
any agreement with the Governioent of Great Britain, or tha 
othar goTsrnaanta of tha Commonwaalth, Alah would glwa 
priority to msmhera of tha armed foreea from other parte or 
the Comao uvea 1th who had aerved in Canada daring the 

Right here in the ftt>Tince of Ontario, many thousands fro* 

Britain, Auatralla, W&w laaland and other parte of tha 

ni^ira, trained for sarTloe against tba aaaagr amd ha^* fo] 
•4 a deep attachment for our country • Ibay already icnow iMI 

V b9nf9 

ai ctmaa* 



ft >i* 

CC . 759 • 6-3-45 

wt lif and vtMt w ar« like, and many of tham bat* in- 
dioated thalr daalra to ooat back h«r« after the war. 
Ihan the tine ooaea for lamlgr«tlon, they vould oe the 
▼ory beat oitlsens w oould abaorb. I belles* that 
the Governaent of Ontario has a right to know vhy aueh a 
proi>oaal waa refused, and in Tlew of Its concurrent po««r 
o'?«r Immigration baa a rl^t to azpraaa Its own opinion 
AS to what plana should be made for the future. That la 
one loqportant subject whieh would be dlaousaed at a 
Domlnlon-Prorinolal Conferenoe. 

Then we have the oaae of air tranaportatlon. is 
a result of the eztenslye air training progra:> which has 
been carried out during the war with such auccess, wa havw 
throughout Ontario airports whloh oaa be adopted for Intar- 
urbsa feeder llnea to connect with the aala transcontinental 
routea« No proTlnoe In Canada haa nearly ao many trained 
sir personnel aa has Ontario, ffe are restralned.howeTer, 
in our development of these feeder lines by tixe position 
taken by the Doninlon Gorernment that they haTe full control 
over all air routes, etan though they be entirely within 
the boundaries of a province o At the aama time the 
Dominion Goveriuaant is doing nothing whatever to develop 
such feeder lines to give opportunity to trained men and 
woasn from the Royal Canadian Air Force who wish to eontlaas 
im aviation after the war. net is soasthlng we woxild 
discuss at a Oominion-Provlnolal Conferance, and the reaaons 
are too obvious to need explanation why It is necessary that 
this be aettled before the end of tha ware 

I can only repeat in this Lsglslsture mj repestwd 
requests, by lettsr and otherwise, that a Conferanoe, or a 
■sating of Pramlera, be held without delay, psrtleularly 



iUitjjfia on? 

I #«ii&¥ 

CC - 760 - 6-S-45 

in Tlew of the annouooeioint • few days mga that th«r« la 
to ba no Doalnlon alaotlon for aoaa oontha ahead, fa ara 
ready at any tlJM to attend aueh a Conference, and will 
do ao in a aplrlt of vholahaarted oo>operatlon with the 
welfare of our people aa the one ^aiding oonaideratloa In 
the oourae we will follow. Before i leaTW thia aubjaet, 
I wlah to refer to aons thing which happened ouj,j yeat^rdaj 
which doea place a atill further e^phaala upon the need 
for auoh a oeeting* The Dominion Mlniater of laeonstruo- 
tlon aald in Ottawa yeaterday that *full aoale plana hare 
been dereloped and are awaiting application to the iSMdlat* 
oonreralon problem of clearing plants of machinea for maJcing 
aaiiitiona to Krs'.it the fastest possible output of cirlllaB 

That is something we have been urging for a year 
and a half. ijut once again hare is something which calls 
for Doffllnlon-Prorinolal oo->operation« Ifoat of the planta 
producing munitions are not owned by the Dominion OoywnuMnt* 
Consequently, the power to deal with those ^ under any 
effeotlTe plan, must depend upon the provinolal authority 
oTwr property and cItII rights once the war powera of the 
Dominion Governiaent end with the cessation of hostilities. 
Xevertheless, In spite of the obrlous need for eo-operatlon 
bttwaen the Dominion and Prorlnolal GoTarnaants, and In fact 
between thoae gowmaants and the ■onlclpal tuthorltles, ther* 
bits been no consultation of any kind although wa hava been 
urging it for a ye«r axid a half* 

Instead of a Conference to dlaouss thia aubject, tha 
Dominion lUnlstar of Re cons trust ion baa announced that thara 
.Are going to ba Baglonal Dlraotora to deal with tboaa 
problaas In Ontario and elsewhere. This la the vary aort 
of thing which we urge ahould be plaoad before a Dominion*^ 


rich? ■ 

orsA CI' es jioij 

agu? 6- 

CC . 761 - 


ProTinolal Conftronoa.aiidt pluoed ujid«r tte guldAno« of 
DoBilnlon-Provlnolal Joint Planning eoamltt««. TtM 
ooursa oelo^ followed by tha Ztoolnlon OoTaniBtnt la not 
the road to an ordarly solution of tbaaa ntalljr 
liqportant problasiar. It la the road to hopalesa oonfuslozu 

Now 1 intand to apealc about aoaa quesTilona ralaad 
In regard to our aduoatlonal program. It no tlna hara w 
auggstted that tho taking ovar by this Gorarnmant on 
bahalf of the people of Ontario of fifty per cent of tba 
coat of education In the prlsnry and secondary schools 
iDuld In Itaalf aolTa our educational problaat. ISiat has, 
however, a rery direct bearing on the solution of our 
educational problaaa as a whole, and abora all It haa a 
rary direct bearing upon the enoouragSBent of the building 
and owning of hooea and of the establishing of the vary 
basis of social security and providing the surroundlngi 
In whloh nost education beglnso 

1 was, however, surprised at the stataaient made 
by the Uador of the Opposition (ICTo JoUlffa) that thara 
would only be trivial advantages in this change. Now 
let us see how trivial sona of thoae advantagaa ara« Ibm 
estimated grant to the City of Toronto alone under the plan 
ikleh haa been laid down will amount to $2,091,745«57* Hot 
• trivial aBount In tarns of any ooney that «• hawa yat 
oona to deal with. Suraly that Is do trivial reduction la 
the tax biirden of the people of this City of Toronto* 

But lat aa give you juat a few flgxu*ea of sons of 
tta* sBMillar places to Indlaata axAotly what the raault 
WDuld be. Kanora, for Instanaa — whara one of the very 
asteeoad swobera of thla Leglslatura, ilio haa racantly 
burat out In a new Una of business aotlvltlaa in that 
flourlahlng city — will undoubtedly appreciate the fact 






as^Qi ai 

:> - ,. -a.- 


CO - 762 - 6>3-4S 

it Eaziora vlll r«o«lv« an astioatad grant of 
|a4«S68 to aaalst tbam In tha raduotlon of thalr aohool 
burdan, and that la «qulTalant to 4oS mllla In tba tax 
btxrdan of t2;a Town of Kanora. Toaard tha othar and 
of tha provlnoa, for inatanoa, Savoaatla will bara a 
poaaibla raduction of 8A9 mllla In Ita aohool tax. 

■pw, Tioffllna, In anothar part of tha prorlnea, 
will racalT* $49,8S8o67. Thaaa, I muat tall you, ara 
lill approzlAata figuraa, aubjaot to tha official chack- 
ing of tha flguraa with Boniclpalltloa. That offara 
a raduotlon In tha tax burdan of 3o6 oilla. 

Babro, anothar typical consnunlty of anothar aisa 
and typa, haa an aatiaatad poaaibla raduction of 
5»S7 oills. 

DDl - 7W - &-*-45 

Mr. Stm 

Thm amounts rary rary consldarably depaDdin^ upon 
the •aseaai&aQt atruotura and tUa ganaral aatnod or taxa- 
tion within the ooanunlty, and of oouraa to aoaa axttnt 
upon the procedure vhleh baa been followed. That la on« 
of the things I have emphaslsod, that we muat atrlre for 
greater uniformity of aaaoaaaant and in the allooatlon of 
coats and of taxation. But that la a atep that will tak« 
tlma, aa areryone who la oonneeted with nunlclpal affaire 
will know. 

The anounts vary frca those I have mentioned, and leas, 
up to 20 mills and more. The variation in the mill rate doea 
not neasure the rarlation in the anount or in the advantage, 
but It quite clearly repreaents a difference In the ayatea 
which doea confront us with many difficulties, 

I must aay that the last erlticlaB I had expected to 
hear was that the assumption of half of the coat of primary 
and aecondary education in this province waa a trivial adjust- 
Bent of taxation. On the contrary, it has been deserlbsd aa 
very different on earlier occasions. 

But the changes In cur educational system have gone 
far beyond an adjuatment of taxes. We have made sweeping 
reorganlxatlons of the administration of the Department of 
Iducation^ whloh has had a profound effeot upon our whole 
•ducatlonal progress throughout the province. Anyone with 
any connection with school affaire, as have many of thoaa 
who are here as teachers, members of school boards and In 
other activities, will know perfectly well that thla la a 
problem presenting aany difficulties snd that ahaaites oamot 
h% made overni^t In the curriculum or in teaching methods. 

Anyone who has had aoms contact with thia problem 
knowa that the whole school year la to aoae extent fixed 


ii aoqu 

.-, rf ■» -V .. 

e> i-rre 8t8oo 

.moat liiM 

see.: -caFF ftrfT 


Oct bv 

- -"• ■ ' '"^ Ti^r 



.a&^9iq oi&xocnq. 

-fbBM. 96 

ias\ ■ awonal 

DD2 - 764 - 9-6-45 

Mr. I>r«w 

Vy t«ztbook«» by the Mo^salty for an ao««pted eurrleuloB 
and by otbar mattars that make oonatant ohangaa aa batvaan 
aohool yaars rery difficult indae6. Bat graat adranoaa 
hara alraady baan aada towards tha objaetiTo of real aquality 
of aduoatlonal opportunity throughout tha prorinaa. 

Apart froB tba ohangaa in tha adnlnlatratlT* ozganisa- 
tion of the Departmant of Iducatlon, lat aa mantlon Juat A 
faa of the changes in policy which haTe had a graat affaat 
upon our aducatlonal ayatam. 

?or the first time we hare Introduced guidance into 
our aohool syatam upon a proTincial baala. A Diraator of 
Ouldanoa has baan appointed who is recognized aa one of tha 
leading authorities on thia continent. By that I aaaB 
Qui dance in the special inatruotion adapted to the special 
capacity of the individual student. That again naana 
tranandoua changea. It InTolyes the inatruation of tha 
taaahara theusalTea and their cooperation aa a firat atap. 

Many schools have not yat had the opportunity of put- 
ting the new plan into effeat, but tha Director la worlciBC 
night and day to asaiat the school boarda to aarry out thia 

la haTe alao aat up apecial gramta for rural high 
schools which will encourage achool boarda to aake tha 
aehool build inga aTallabla aa coamunlty oentraa, and to 
adjoat tha school prograa to meet tha naada of tha local 
ooHnmity and tha individual pupil. A goo« baginning haa 
bean mada in thia work and new boarda are conatantly taking 
up thia plan. 

We have adopted a program which will provide tachnleal 
inatitutaa under provincial control at aelactad pointa 
throughout tha province. Already tha Baileybury Inatitwta 


ojiii aoiiBUm;^ jc <; 
eAi *^ '< to 8fl i>«^^; ... 

- J u 1,^ X i- 


tsT a^»e'<c Xooxlos 

me^BYa iBaoktt>r>ut>» ii/o aoqtf 

ffi«<rBxe Xooiioe luo 

nt»qB 9i Qoambi.uO 

(O t'ioBqAO 
«eaaado «x;o6xiaia»ic<^ 

4lq wea ad^ :^Xt 

:r»ell» c 

dsiri LBiin tot aJ-ai 

.o«qe q;. t9B o«I« erad »f 
erlt 9?{sni ol ^fiifcd loorine *^flTyoc..„ -.^iw iloifiv eXoodoe 

juswo aa aXJaXlBYa a^lbXXi/tf Xoodaa 
■ts: bitea Bdi t»esi oi aiBtsoiq Loodoz odt tauiba 

i-i , -JcBJaaoo s-TB ajbiaotf waa-^aa aiioa eixli^ ai ataa «aatf 

.flsXq elii;f qi; 
laota.d09i afcivoiq iliw xfoirtw laaaiu -" " 

aijflloq 6a;roaXeB tfa loriaoo latoatfoiq lebau eBtuttteat 
•ttfttSBal r^dxeltm axU- xbaerUL .acairoiq erf^f fuod^ua-nii 

DD3 - 7*6 - 3-6-48 

Mr nrmm 

Of malnc has be«n op«n«d to sorr* tbs idiola of th« mining 
Industry lo northern Ontario. 

A Dlr^etor of Physloal and Baalth Education taa bean 
appointad «ho la azpaBdlng tha phyaloal and haaith aduoatlon 
In tha schools, and daTalopiac a prograB for phyaleal fitnasa 
throughout the whole proTlnoa* 

Cadat training is now inoludad as an intagral part 
of physical and health education, and tiMaa eoabiDa4 eoursea 
are diraeted toward the developnent of healthy bodies, aa 
undars landing of good oitizeashlp, and a saaaa of raspoir- 
alblllty to tha eaoBunlty aa a whole* 

Aa a further developnent of sound cltltenahlp, we are 
Introducing a program of inatruotlon in the aiapla prlneiplaa 
of our own aystea of government under Oooalnlon, FroTincial 
and Municipal authorities. Only tcday a new book haa aoae 
off the press under the tltla "Canadian Danoaraey in Action,*, 
which is the first attaapt to glTe an underatandabla platura 
of oar conatitutional structure in words and within the apaaa 
which would be suitable for the pupils In our secondary 
aohoola. Tha book has been prepared by Profeaaor Brown of 
tha Sapartaant of Hlatory of Tor^ato UnlTerslty, and I faal 
aura will aeet with the approval of every aaaber of thla 
Laglslature. It la a reduction into aimt)le and eoHpaet font 
of the conatitutional set-up under which wa live. It aiataa 
In understandable terms tha way in whloh wa govern ouraelvea 
in thla defflooracy, and tha need, I alght aay, of that book 
became very apparent, if any aapliaala had baan required, whan 
a quaationnalre was want out to tha aenlor elassaa In tha 
eollaglatas of this provlnoa. It produoad vaiy atartling 
results. It produced a rather atartling atory of tha extant 
to whloh we had failed In thla province throughout tha yaara 



I 0*>1 ' M 

auB dw f 


X aSc. 

ex&dY 8''^^ 


.r 10 

-i/M tXlB 

' to 

if aiJy'tJ 



DD4 - 766 - 5-6-48 

Mr. Dr«« 

to gXw to our pupils an undera taadiag of soim of the slaplatt 
)>•••• of our oonati-tubioiial oauiod. Zhat vaa oot ma fault 
of tha puplia. Tba puplla hava baan vorkiog hard on tha 
couraaa that hava baan glT«n to them, but for aoaa raaaon «a 
azpaotect tnat thay aould grow up with aotaa knovladfa of our 
ayatam of goramnant without baing given any Inatruetlon In 
that fozv of goTemmant. 

W. MITCHILL: Might I ask whether thla booklet will 
Include a copy of the firltlah Horth Aaarloa Act for the bene- 
fit of the puplla? 

m. DBBW: There will ba an appropriate reference to 
the Brltlah North JUMrloa Act. 

in* JOLLIITB: Zy^m, the Privy Council has had diffi- 
culty In interpreting the British Korth Amarloa Aat. 

MR. ORlSff: I can assure hon. menbers that It will not 
contain a judicial Interpretation of the British Korth 
America Act. Do not misunderstand me. la are not pro- 
Tiding a judicial Interpretation of the Act for the pupils 
of the schools , The book la written for the advanead 
students in the senior clasaas of our schools, and hitherto 
they have not received that insi;ruc»a.0Q xr a way ihat waa 
adapted to their requiraaants. I ahall ba glad to oskt 
arrangements for every hon. mambar of the House to get a 
copy of thla book. I only mention It at the length I do 
because after the dlacusslon that we have had about an under- 
standing of our public affaira I think it will be helpful to 
tere a book of thla kind. I know that Profeaaor Brown aad 
the offlciala of the Departaant of B4uc«tlon would walooAs any 
Sttftcaationa that may be mada. 

IquQlly related to the building of good oitisens has 
baan the extension of the taaohlng of simple asaantials of 



DDl - 767 - 3-6-48 

Mr. Dmw 

•toriea from the Blbl«. In apltc of aont public st«t«- 
■•ata to tli« contrttrTi th« program Is BMtlng with wlda- 
•praad approval and has raoalTad tha varmeat eommandation 
from many of our hl^aat religloua authoritlaa. 

I think parhapa for a momant I should make refer* 
enoe to some of the startling Intensretatinns whloh have 
been placed upon thla effort of ours to give a mora wide- 
apread distribution of certain fundamental requlraaenta 
ordinarily aooepted aa eaaential to the physioal develop- 
■snt of people within our form of demooraey. 

ffe did not begin to teaoh either Bible atoriea or 
what might be called religious education in the schools 
of this proYinoe, for that haa been going on for some time. 
But there had been auch an expanding desire for these 
courses that the ministers of the province sis^ly could 
not meet all the demands made upon them, and «e have 
aecordlngly introduced a system which is very similar to 
that which has been used with very great auccesa In 
Great Britain. In fact, we have made a start by 
taking two textbooks which are uaed in their aehoola, 
adapting them to meet our own requireaenta, and that haa 
been done with the whole-hearted cooperation of the repre- 
aentativea of the various churches interested, the senior 
dencciinational bodlea, and these pamphlets have been pro* 
dueed in a way to arold any dencai national controversy. 

In saying that i should point out tnat thia affeeta 
only the public aehoola because religion was already being 
taught in the aeparate schools of the province. The Gov 
mlttee that considered this matter waa a OosB&lttee of 
Proteatant miniaters, representing a great Mtsy pftrta of 
the provinoe, and it is signlf leant that thera have been 




DD6 ' ''*® * »-6-46 

Mr. I>r«v 

wnrm vords of caoBandatlon fron leadtra of th« Boaftn 
Catiioiio e::urca as «9Juk or ijm procedure wnicc oas o««a 

It was ol«arl/ atatad that tha booka «hlah vara 
iDtroducad ware only azpariaantai. , voat UMy vara a flrat 
•tap. Thay oan ba ImproTad in tha llgbt of azpariauoa. 
Iha faar that thara la any attanpt to Introduce what night 
ba oallaA a atata religion la wholly uarottjM«4, both by tha 
praotioa adopted and by the reaulta vhioh bave baan obtain- 
ed. It is a faot that rery few aohooX boarda throughout 
the province have indlcatedl a desire not to have thaaa 
olaaaas. Any board, of courae, can dealde not to have 
them. No board la oompelled to pezi&lt thia education if 
they do not wish it* Surely that la aopla protection 
for those who for any reason feel that thia teaching ahould 
not ba given. In certain oaaes the reasons for not glTlns 
thia teaching in the sehoola have been obvioua beo«use acsa 
aehoola have to include nenbera of very dlYldad denomi net ions, 
and the taoohing would have caused difficulty In those schools. 

I should alao say that thia lB«truction i« only being 
glTen in the prlaary sehooXs, and is only being given step ¥y 
step in the Junior forms, after full consideration and great 
Assistance from repreaentatlTes of the various churohea. 

fhere are many otber new atapa vhleh have been taken 
in our edueatlonal program throughout Ontario* I will deal 
vlth thoae when I am discussing the estiaatas of the I>epart- 
ment of Sducation. 

I do want to aay that the Act of laat year which gave 
to the teachers of thia proTicoe profesaicnal atatus has 
worked out extremely well, aaa tne Department of Iduoatioa 
haa received great aaaiatanee from the official repreaanta- 

^ a. 




DD7 - 769 - 9-6-46 

Mr. I>r«« 

tiT«t of the t«aoh*ra of the prorlne*. I a» certain that 
throughout the years thiu opportunity whioh la afforda4 hy 
the Teaohers' Tedaration la going to ba of great ralua b«- 
••uae they are thamaalTea dealing with the problaaa of th« 
pupil and are able to paaa on the advantage of their exper- 
ience after diaeuaaion aaongat themaelTea of th* proble«a 
•rlalng in rarylng types of eonnunitlea and under dlffar«nt 
oondltiona throughout the prorince. 

I an not for a aoiaont auggeatlng that we have mmi9 
■ore than a atart in bringing education throughout the 
whole of Ontario to the level we hope to aohieTe. But It 
la a natter of record that quite apart froa the change In 
the burden of taxes sweeping adTaneea have been made In the 
past year in the ImproreBient of our educational system whiek 
o<flq;>are Tery favourably with those Bade in any oorreapondlnc 
period ainoe Confederation. I asaure hon. neabers that the 
Department of Iducation will welcome suggestions and con- 
■truetlTe crltlclam from every member of this X.eglslatur«. 
I know that the officials of the Department of Iducation 
will be very glad to have the advantage of the adTlce of 
hon. members of thia Leglmlature in regard to any particular 
loeal problems which may hare arisen over the changes whleh 
hawe been made or with resrect to any rroblem of education. 

Before 1 leave that suoject entirely may 1 soy tnat 
It la not poaslble to effect any ehangt that appllea to 
thousands of schools throughout the T^roTlnc• and affects 
tne relationship of thousands of school boards with the 
Department without certain problems arising, an4 undoubted- 
ly in certain eases difficulties may arise that require 
attention. All I aak is that if any hon. member know of 
nny such situation ariaing he will bring it to the attention 



Mr. »r«« 

of %h» Qhi%t 01 Factor or to a* portonally. and it oortalnlj 
vlll root ire tttontion. I might «gr to uoo of tlio aon* 
■Mibors prosont with «hoB I dlsousaad a partloxilar probiaa 
tha other day, a vary thorny problaa, that «• hara aolTad It 
aa a raault of hla brisking it to our «tt«Ation. 

I iMTa apokan alraady of the naad for aaintalnlat •>< 
axpandlng our exporta aa an aaaantial part of any prograa of 
full aaployment for thia proTlnoa axxd In fact throu^^out 
thla oouatry. That» may I aay, la ona of the main purposaa 
of Ontario House in London., Alraady It has dona mueh to lay 
the foundation for developments alon^ that Una. It can 
assist in seTeral «ays» first by expanding the contacts orer 
thare for our producers, and second by bringing to ua new 
aouroaa of production. It vlll also be the function of 
Ontario House to assist Industrial producers here in find- 
ing new and expanding markets in Britain and throu^out 
Surope. Attached to the staff of Ontario House Is an out- 
standing industrial engineer. Colonel F. J. Lyla, whose work 
is directed toward bringing to Canada nww types of industry 
which will create new employment here. Colonel Lyla has had 
the adrantage of wide eontaots here in Ontario with industrial 
production and he served ever since the beginning of the war 
until a few months ago in the Canadian forces overseas. E» 
haa established excellent business c<^tacts over there and 
has already laid the foundation for much new developmant aloac 
the line of bringing to Canada new types of industrial produc- 
tion to oreate new employment here. Ontario Bouse will hmf 
the function of sssistlng not only the industries producing 
things but also the munlclpalltiea of our prorince, and many 
of «ur muni eipali ties have sent to Ontario Hotise complete 
details of their local industrial opportunities, power ani 




DD9 - 771 - »'i-46 

Mr. Drvv 

highway faollltlas and othar faollltlaa avallabla for Xhm 
loeatlon of induatry. I oan aay froa ay own azparlanoa 
oTar thare, in dlaousaiona with thaaa atn, that tbara la 
a Tary sraat Intarast balng takaa orar thara In tha 
aatabliahaant of aaall Induatrial luilta In tha aaallar 
oosBunltlas of this proTinoa baoauaa of thalr axparlanoa 
In daeantralisad produotion in Britain, and I would atrong- 
Xy urga that arary oonmunity within this prorinoa plaoa on 
record in Ontario Housa full Infomiatlon aa to tha faellitl* 
whlah they afford along thoaa linaa, that la thoaa whloh 
actually faal that thay haTa sound induatrial opportunltlaa. 

^ (Paga 772 follows) 

- 772 - 3-6-45. 

W« Also hKf •Xpert ««tl«tftae« In tht h*ndliac of 
c^loultural products, and It will b« th« duty, and It tb« 
duty now, of tbot« conneotad with Ontario Houaa to •zplorw 
eTary pocalble obanjMl for new lines of dletrlbutlon of 
•CZ*! cultural produota whloh can maintain our tramandoua 
war-time export. Whether we can maintain them at the pres- 
ent leTel Is, of course, entirely dependant upon the opening 
of new eontacts oTer other eountries to-day. It Is far beyond 
anything we have known In peace before. 

Also, It will be the duty of thase connected wltb 
Ontario Hoxise to establlah oontaet with Industrial and 
agricultural outlets In Europe, as well. Uay Z say. In Tiew 
of the fear that was expressed along that Una, that thla 
gOTernment neither had any thought, nor did It eTer Intlmata 
that It Intended to open an enbaasy in Parla or anywhere else 
In Europe. What actually has bean don* x» that we have 
•stabllshed eontacts by whlsb producers hwra can seek outlets 
In Paris and In Jranoa, kn^ will also be able to do the sama 
In Belgium or Holland or other areas of Europe when war enda 
and when export becomes posaibla. 

But I do want to aay that we re eel red the rary warm- 
•St cooperation from the Canadian Embassy In Parla, aad 
Oaneral Yanlar, the Canadian iBbassador th«r«, made aTallabla 
to ua every faoillty of that Sribassy for th« purposs of 
establishing eonteets in Paris and elsewhera throtlghout Pranea. 
We have other couiaots of a business nature, as well, and al- 
ready It has bean possible for us to be of asslstanea to thoaa 
wbo hav* gon* froa hare aaaklng new export outlets In Franaa 
and oontlnental Europe, and whan the ravagea of war hara pass- 
ad, and when oii— mil cation Is again In active operation. It 




- 7TS - 3-6-46. 

Mr. Dr««. 

landoubtadly will op«n wld« fields of opportunltlva for thtt 
ereatlon of good-will, juat as we hav* had aabaaaadora of 
good-will In Britain In tha parsona, thara-, of hxmdrada of 
tbouaanda of wall-bak«Ta4 youn^ Oanadiaiia, and we hanra hat 

ambaaaadora of good-will of the highaat typa in franoa, in 
Balgium and in Holland, beeauaa, not only hava thoaa 70wx% 
■an and woaan done a magnificent Job in oaklng tha path to 
▼iotory far surer, but they haTa left a raputatloa for 
courtesy and good-will behind them that ahould warm tha 
heart of every Canadian back here at boaa* 

HoV) in aAAitloa to tha aotivitiaa of Ontajrlo HKmao, 
which la tha buainass admin iat rat iva repreaentatira of 
Ontario in what la, let na always remaidbar, by far tha 
greatest marlcat for Canadian production, - and will ooctlmia 
to ba, - in addition to that, we have the Ontario serrleaa* 
Club, whlcn is providing a very mucn-neadad slaapiog placa 
for many of our young man and wcnan from Ontario. Itoiiy of 
the hon. maabaors of this Leglalatura hare ooaa to ma and hawa 
told ma of letters they have received from overaeaa, talllDc 
what splendid treatment and eourteay and kindnasa they hava 
received over thera. 

Tha Ontario Sarvloas* Club is doing a great Job, b«* 
oauaa thaaa young boya and girls, who ara that far away froa 
hoaa, and have bean away from ho«a that long, do gat a mrnxm 
feelint? in their heart when they ^at aee that word •Ontario", 
and wnan, incidentally, they gp inalda and hara a lot of vary 
attractlva young Canadian girla maatiag thaa thara, - and X 
assure yon that thay are ertremaly attractive young girla, who 
9je% a credit to this provinea and to this country, - and thAt 

©*■ !■ 

p. a-^ 



■■!■ V~\C 


- 7T4 - 3-6-48. 

Mr. Draw. 

Club la building up good-will betvaen Ontario and %h% fat 
of Canada through the young m«i and woaan in unifom trcm 
•vary part of Canada. 

Bxoellant aaala ara aaorrad thara at ooat; tha prlaaa 
ohargad juat actually carry tha ooat of produolng. But* In 
addition to the ordinary things which can ba obtaload, thaaa 
young paopla do woleoaa tha fact that through arrangaaanta 
■ada hara they ara able to gat things Ilka aaple ayrup and 
pancakaa, and things of that kind, whlah ara not only a luzoij, 
but ara unobtalnabla at any of the ordinary reatauranta or 
other eating places orer there. 

MR. ^H^PT.1^ H. MIUULRD (York feat): Batter aend th«i 
oTar a douLghnut machine. 

MR. DRV: I hope you haTS aosie auggastlons, beaaua* 
you havw just cooe back from there. We are trying, all tha 
time, to send things orar to thaa which will eatabllsh a'bet- 
ter contact. 

How, I asn also say wa are establishing good -will with 
members of tha arioad forces of the United Xlngdoa and aaBbarw 
of the armed foreas of franca, BalgitB, HoUaaA* an4 all tha 
Xllled nations, and any who have been there will hsTs notload, 
as they go m, tne msignlas of ai&ost 9T9TJ alliad uniform 
on the shoulders of those who ara there, who, going there as 
gtiasts of young Canadians, and In that way establishing a eon- 
tact with the naaa of "Ontario*, and what Ontario Is, ara form- 
ing a Tary high opinion of what it la doing. 

I oan beat indlcsie the extent of tne worjc they are do- 
ing whan I tell you that they ara serving an aTerage of orar 
slztaan hundred aaala a day, and that they hata mora than tva 
thous«Li Tlsitors in that Club every day. That has bean made 

el (itfXO 
BtmoBQ to 


aw; T t 

auiJBi ^ oeiaui eiiJ to 

.fca af •i©i I bellLl 

ftCTflff &a«' 

- 775 - 3-ft-45. 

posaiblt only by the ooop«z^tlon of th« Canadiaa R«d CroM 
Society. More than fifty youji^ Caaadlan glrlt In uniform ar« 
ftaalatlng in this work, and, through their effort! , BBlOnc 
this one of the most attract lye meetinc places 1b th« vhol* 
of London for aen and vomen in uniform, of any nationality. 

Hov, In reporting these details, I do wish to pay 
the warmest possible tribute to Uias isobel Pepall, who is la 
charge of these splendid girls, and idio Is, la fact, in 

,d of the Red Cross girls overseaa, and also to express oar 

appreciation, « and when I say this I feel sure I can say it on 
behalf of all of us, — to every one of those glrla for tha 
■agnlfioent work they are-^oing at the Ontario Serrices* Club* 

Many other actlrltiss are carried on under the direction 
of that Club, and not the least portion of these has been the 
distribution of more than four hundred barrels of Canadiaa 
apples to young men In hospitals in Britain, and may I say, la 
tliat rospeet, that any who are sending parcels oToraeaa should 
remember that anyone in hospital likes that special liaking-ap 
with things, like apples, maple sugar, and things of that kind, 
i^loh remind him particularly of hcna. 

ilao, eonstant contact is maintainad with the excellent 
Canadian hospltala uver there, and erery step is taken to assure 
an adequate cigarette supply there, and other needed requira- 
B»nta for the patient in hospital, and our own Queen's park Var 
Service Guild, made up of our members of the CiTil Sarviea of 
this building, hare done a tremendoua job in sendmg ovar need- 
ed eomforta and supplies to people in hospltala and to our yooac 
man and women overseaa. 

Vow, in many waja theaa organixatlons help to maintain a 

<5; jiMii^ ,( 

10 dI(^lsBoq 
^«H dil;r to fioofli 

9x1:* tr^i. idi I0 

air. i.. —alb 

a ' , ^se t ■aXqqa 

«i tfoiifir 

O ,»: 

A &le 

i^mw -putt; 

- 778 - 3-6-45. 

Mr. Drew. 

diract contact with hoa* for so many thoujanda of oiar jo\ra% 
peoplt. That 18 the thought uppermoat in the hearts and 
minds of those who ara OTsrthara, and I am sura the hon* 
■amber for York ffaat (ICr. Millard) will report to us as to tha 
contacts he haa made with them. It has bean one maans of 
aalAtaining a direct contact, and wa have receinad many, many 
letters telling us of That ve do has meant to them. 

Xa w read ihe encouraging news which comes to us day 
^7 day, and hear of new victories which perhaps are inclined 
to maka us over-opt imis tie, still we can, with Justification, 
feel, now that our troops are along the Rhinm, and that tha 
forces of Russia, on the east, are along the Oder, that wa 
are within meaaureable distance of the end of thia ghastly 

war, and I know that in closing, no matter itmt other raoarka 

might/ meet with general epproval, I think I apeak on behalf 

of CTery hon. membar of thJa Legislature when I say that our 

greatest hope is that we will aoon have the opportunity to 

welcome them homa again* 

MB. MITCHSli. 7. HSI9UBH (Blgin): Mr. Speaker, so far 
we hare heard from four honourable gentleman in this Rouse la 
connection with this very important debate, and I shall refer 
wery briefly to each one of tham^ ^flrat, of course, to tha 
hon. mesiber who sits directly opposite me, my very good friend 
from Peterborough (Mr. Scott) . I was wary much iaqprasaed with 
the reasonableness of his address, which be delivared whan ha 
seconded the Throne Speech motion which precipitated this pres- 
ent discussion. 

I also listened with a great deal of interest while ay 
good friend, tne hon. membar frcm Norfolk-Ualdlmand (Mr. Martin) 



- 777 - S-6-48. 

Dr. Drtw, 

d«llTerod hi a Throne ap«*e)i. Nov, I hAT« b««n la ParliUMitt 
for alnetaen years, and I ."lave heau'd oany moTeri and seoond- 
era of the iddreae In reply to the Speech from tha Throoa, 

but very soldoni have I heard thea Interject anything of a con- 
troveralal nature Into the dlacuaaion, and I rathar regretted 
that tha hon. member for NorfoUc-Haldlmand a tapped out hia 
field. I ahall not endaavour to follow him, becauae I knov ha 
la a new and Inexperienced member of thla Houae, and tha apeaah 
he dellrered was a typical Tory apeeeh, and no doubt vaa vrlt- 
ten for him by acnabody elaa» 

Hovever, there la one obaervatlon I want to make, haT- 
ing particular reference to hla cloalng remarka. laongat 
other thlnga, he aald: 

**Let ma aay I agree with the hon. Prima Mlnlater 
that 80 long aa Ontario remalna Ontario, the union 
Jaek will wave over thla great proTlnaa, and we will 
continue to sing *C»od Save the King** and mean It." 

I rather expected at that point ha would have reached 
OTer and grabbed the Union Jack from the wall and In typical 
Tory atyle hare waved It before thla Houaa* 

Now, Canada haa attained the poaltlon of the third 

largeat trade nation of the world, la far aa Z an peraonally 

concerned, I think it would be a good idea If the Canadian 

ahlpa which carry Canadian gooda over the aeven aeaa would 

have a dlatlnotiva Canadian flag. But, - and I repeat the 

worda of the hon. member for Norfolk-Haldlmand, - 

"▲a long as Ontario remalna Ontario the Union 
Jack. will wave over thla great province.* 

* and that, however, is a matter entirely in the Federal 

jurisdiction. If the Canadian Parliament and the Senate at 

Ottawa aea fit to adopt a dlatlnctlve Canadian flac, then a 

bill giving effect to that meaaare would ha^ to ba algaad 

9iit fttt 

9b ti 


:w ca* 

• tu- 

rn 9bsi:i ^sttltX 

fB 9fB.. 

M r.-: 

dS>& &TiiA4^ V, 

- 778 3-6«^6. 

by a repretentatlTe of th« Kln^ hlaaelf. Hli ExotI Itnoy, th« 
GoTernor C^naral of Canada, and thaae poor, orthodox, ol4- 
fathlonad Torlaa, would than find thaaaelTaa In tha anoaalouc 
poaltion of bein^ mora loyal than tha King hlasalf , baoauaa If 
tha King approved a dlatlnctlve Canadian flag, than thaaa 
Torlea aay thay would taka exception to It. So, trying to 
block tha aeourlng of a dlstlnctlTa Canadian flag by thaa woulA 
ba aa futile aa putting a cxustard plaater on a voodan lag. 

How, we have heard tha hon. Prime Mlnlater In thrao 
aactlons. Tha flrat blaat waa directed at ma, a Tltrolle ang 
unprovoked attaek. The next attaiqpt, he arose to great 
halghta and drew our attention to scientific research, and ask- 
ed us all to step In and assist these oan In their sclentlfia 
endeavours. To-day wa got the residue, which he read very 
carefully and very well, la a matter of faat« ha doea a Job 
like that very well, Indeed. 

But I was rather disappointed that ha aada no particul- 
ar-reference to his twenty- two points. I think, as a matter of 
fact, thoae twenty- two points are baglnnlng to be rather Irrltat* 
lag to hlau 

W. DflBf: Not a bit. 

MR. HKPBUBN (Klgln) : You kxtow, ordinarily a political 
party adopts a platform, and they refer to certain suggaatloaa 
put forward and promisee made as "planka*, and not "polnta", 
and I am afraid the 'polnta** are closing in, and ha la tha 
irritable aaobar, and not myaalf, aa he described ma tha other 

1 have Hated with a great deal of interest to the hon. 
laaAar of the opposition (ICr. Jolilff e) , - and I Jcoow he is a 
■an of many academic degreaa, a Bhodea aoholar -- 

aw me 







- 779 - 9-6-45. 

Mr* Btpbum 

MB. DSM: May I plaaA "not oillty" to that oharg«T 

MR. BEPBUW: To «h«t oharg*? 

MB. DREW: I am not a Rhodas aoholar. 

MR. HSBUBH: I didn't say you vara. I think ymi 
had battar Juat raaarra your onargy, and you aay hara to 
plead "guilty* to othar thinga later on. 

Nov, my good friend, the hon. aaiibar for York South 
{Ur, Jolliffa) haa what you might call a ■theoretical, 
Acadamle mind", and I think that la to hi a dlaadyantaea, ba- 
oauaa the people whom he is suppoaed to rapreaent are people 
who work with their handa, and I think they are falling away 
from the aoclaliat party because they do not think they hara 
the right kind of leaderahip in either the hon. maober who la 
the oppoaition leader (Mr. JoUiffa) In thla Houaa or Mr. M* 
J. Co Id well, the Dominion leader far Canada. 

MISS IGSSS MlCPHilL (York Seat): You hare bean 
llatanini^ — 

MB. HEPBUHN: Never mind; I am going to aay aome thing 
Qloa about you later on. 

All over Canada you will aee the C. C. F* falling 
apart beoauaa aocialiam, in ita true form, ia now being un- 
▼eilad for the atudy of the people of Canada. And I aee t«e 
hon. mambara who laat Saaaion ware aitting on your aida of 
the Houaa, over thara, and thara ara tvo «ho left in Manitoba- 

aiVIRAL BOH. MBfiBBS: Oh, oH. 

MR. SPIAOB: May X raalnd the hon. aaiibara that the 
fl^aakar la at 111 in the Chair. Flaaae obaerre that. Oaa at i 
time, plaaaa. 

Ml* UBHIUBI: The Trade a' Union aan ara falling away. 


ot *' 

dd-£roB ^' 


. "halm 9tambMom 

J^SQUdf 6SHML 88X2f 

— ;|Oix»^«iX 
dalA X9V^ :ifiua<aH .m 

0>v'J ••« I btik .AbAoa^ lo ftlcaocr erit To v 
- i^io .^ tcurtl Hi -tlJ^i oi{» omt £ .>il;f fiat ,«r: 

0au6E & 

» »A anO .iAi 

#a ei rraafuftcC 

•xawja ^ailLf:. 

•xiT :WKJai^ 

. 780 > 

Mr. Bopbum 

Only the other day the United Autoaoblle Workers eodorted 
the etand taken by their leader, ICr. Burke, «ho withdrew 
txio auypevt from the C* Co I., firty-one thousand, in ail -- 

8BV1RAL HQH. lOHNBfl: Oh, oh. 

MR. SPSiXBR: Order. 

MR. SffBOW: Ur. Speaker, the aoclallete are not 
fooling anybody any longer. 

This remlcda ae of a soap-box orator, who waa oarry- 
Ing on with great guato in London, and aa the liooualnef 
went by he aald, "Ihen the day of freedoa oomea, you people 
will be riding in thoae llmoualaea, and be llring in the 
great aanaiona when the day of freedom eonea." 

One type of old Britiah worloaan got up and aaid, "I 
do not want to ha\re a limouaioa; I do not want to aubjeot 
Hytelf to such traffic hazarda, and I do not want to lire la 
a aanalon; I am satisfied to live in the little huoe where 
the vife and I raiaed our family." And the aoq^ox orator 
aald, "When the day of freedom cooea, you will do aa you are 

That ia what the people are doing to^daj. Hie aooial- 
iat group are getting tired of regimentation, frcm which they 
fear they will never shake thenselTea looae. That Is what ia 
the matter with your party to-day. 


MR. SPEAKBR: I muat appeal to the hon. aeabera, that 
no matter hov colourful the apeaker may be, juat take your 

MB. BSPBUBH: Ur» Speakar, I hava no objeotion to their 
"butting in*. Z will take thea all on, as far aa that ia eoa- 

I' no 

asz iBVT^ 


."fii a^axj". 

-781- S-6-40. 

Mr. Bipboxm 

Now, Z aaid I wm going to Mty •oncthinc nl«* about 
■y good friend from Sast York (Mlsi lUophall). Toa know, 
twaaty-slx yearf ago, - and tliat Is a long while a^, - I 
waa chairman of a aeatliic In the little Tlllasi of Ubleii, 
which Is a half a alia from my fana» at which tlaa aj fOoA 
friend from York Eaat (Miss Uacphall] caae down and spoke on 
farm problems, and she made a wonderful lopresaion. Then, • 
few years ago, I met her In the Houaa of Commona, ittien X was 
a Federal member there, and I know Tery few people who are 
any better at repartea. 1 have had the experience of meet- 
ing that, and I had the satisfaction, the other day, of seeing 
the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Dunbar) and the hon, prima 
Minister (Mr. Drew) manhandled in a similar fashion. I would 
adrlsa the hon. members to leave the hon. member for Sast 
York (Miss Maophail) strictly alone in the futura. But Z 
must aay that I am glad to see that she still has that spark- 
ling wit and is still as beautiful to-day as when I first mat 


Kow, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Eaat York (Miss 
Maophail), in making an obserration the other day, aald sha 
never had hoard a political leader say he had mada a miataka. 
I certainly would like to have the satisfaction of hearing tha 
hon. Prima Minister (Mr. Drew) admit that at some time, or 
other, he actually made a mistake. I have made lots of mistakea. 
I am juat an ordinary, human IndlTldual, and will probably 
ft lot more before I die. I will prbbably be apologlting for 
my mistakes aa long aa I live. 


\ anrnt 
-xedicata Xrz»ibttl a 

'D T? '2 X«l52j:TC 

1 (Xi*;!-:--/!!' 

'4£.W ftJU 'C«i^ .'i;jl9C &£ 

« fwr 

'.■■■& SS^- 

* 76£ >- 3-6-45. 


I ffl«d« a ap«tteh dovn at a aarvioa olub the othar 
day, and I told tham that I had made a mlstaka when I at- 
tacked Right hon. UackeDZie Kioc pexnoaaily, that I ahould 
hava attacked hla GOToriment. I do not think that Bach la 
to be gained oy peracaal attaoJca, but It aaaoed to aturaot 
a eonaiderabla amount of attention. Tha alopla refereoa* 
vhlch I made orought forth a cartooa lu the *Globe and Mail* 
and the "Toronto Telegram**. I will admit that at that tuna 
I aas rather concerned about the war situation, and I had 
reason to be, because I had just returned froa Australia^ 
where I had talked with military and naval leaders, and you 
have to be down there, thousands of mllea frca the North 
Amerlean oontinmt, or Great Britain, to appreciate tha 
aenaa of danger In the minds of those people,- only seven 
and one half million, in aUr-ivhen but a few hundred mllea 
north were nearly one hundred million of the moat savage 
indlvlduala that this world has ever known, not even excepting 
the Kazia themaelvea. 

(Page Ho. 763 foUowa. ) 




- 783 - 3-6-46 

Mr.Bapburn (llgln) 

AH HON. MSHBIR: Hay I ask a quastiont 

MR. SPEAKER : Order. The hon« aaabar for ll^la auat 
be allo«a4 to prooaod without Interrupt lona. 

UP. UmUIV (Elgin): I do not mind quaationa. I, 
too, have parhapa been OTar-zaaloua In aaklng thaa. 

I Mnt to picture to you, Mr. Speaker and hon. nambara 
of the Rouse, the situation I found in Australia. The people 
there were in fear of an invaalon from the ruthleaa Japaneae 
and were frantically preparing for war at a time when we had 
on the North American continent eighteen million people on 
relief and when we had perplexing economic problema to 
solre. ffhile we on this continent were inyeating in 
idlenesa, in Australia the people were investing in ama- 
aants. I remember well that as I left on the "Uarlpoaa* 
the Prime Ulniater of Australia, Ur. Curtln, stood in my 
cabin with teara in his eyes and said, "If you can, do try 
to wake up the people of North America frcn their apathy 
because when war breaks out we are going to be InTaded un- 
less the American and Brltiah naTiea can fan out to protect 
our ahores. Otherwise the ruthless Japanese will inrade 
our country.* So hon. membera will understand the atti- 
tude of mind in which I returned to this country, and one 
of the flrat thlnga I did upon my return waa to introduce 
into thia Houae a reaolution — this was months before the 
VMT — calling for the mobilization of our reaourcea and 
■anpower in anticipation of a war that I then bellered to 
be inevitable. But I waa laughed out of court. You have 
to expect these things if you are a lone Toloe crying in 
the wllderneaa. But later on the situation developed 
much more aerlously. 

Last year the hon. Beaber for OoTsroourt (Mr. 

"i t; w iJU « 

.^nf ft > 

784 - 8-6-4a 

Ifir. H«pbura (Ilgln) 

•OBTt (Mr* Daokworth partlolpatod in a debate in this Booae^ 
and rightly so, due to toae information that he had with 
reapaet to am iiiiolt traffic earried on between thia 
eountry and Japan. I well recall MadAB Chiai^Cal-ahek 
apeakin^ in Ottawa not long ago and ezpreseing her appre- 
oiatioa of the aaaistanoe Canada had rendered to Chisa 
when thia Houae in 1940 pasaed a resolutioa oondeaning the 
Dominion soTernment at that time when we found that Canada 
vaa actually ahippiag raw materials to Japan which after- 
wards were used to blow oxir boys to pieces in Hons t^OBg* I 
may have been oTer-sealoua, but I atill maintain that nothiif 
■ueh can be gained by personal attacks. I am sorry indeed 
that I indulged in personal attackas on Ur. llaokenxie, 
but I want to say that there hare been no cwertures made 
by him to me nor from me to him, so I am perfectly free to 
criticise his goyernment. But I want to say this. I 

realise that the greatest thing in Canada is natioaal 
tintly, and I belicTC that the only organisation whieh 
can provide a semblance of national unity now or in the 
future us that great body of reform opinion which you find 
in the Liberal party aad which you cannot find in the narrow, 
reactionary Tory mind. 

I waa perturbed the other day — I am going along the 
back benches now — to see that the hon. membar for St. IVarld 
(Mr. Dennisoa) made a reference to a delegation that appeared 
before me when I waa Premier of thia province, a delegation 
oomprlaiag woman and ahildraa» aad the hon. member aald that 
I waa rather diacourteoua to the children. 

I want to deny that allegation moat emphatically, Itr* 
Speaker. I have three adopted ohildrea of ay own. I Iotw 
little children. I hare nerer been diseoarteoua to any 


Mr*fi«pburn (Bi^n) 

«^ldr«B in my lift utd a«T«r will b«. I ahould liic« th« 
Bou8« to know the olrouH«taao«« la vlxleb that d«l«gatloa 

Mt M. 

than I took office «a were la tha dark daya of tha 
daprasaion. Wa had been left a heritage of ona hundrad 
fldlllon dollara of debt, of unpaid bllla and orardrafta 
by tha Hanxy goTomment. Ona of the firat thlnga Z did 
waa to inspect personally the hoaas of tha uaaaiployed, and 
when I found that thay did not have sufflolant bedding, 
kitchen utensils and dishaa and little comforts, I used tha * 
only flexible source of revenue that I had and raised the 
aauaaaant tax, although my action aes rary unpopular at tha 
time, in order that these people might be provided with tha 
necessitlaa of Ufa* There vera thouaanda and thouaanda 
of man and women in the province of Ontario at that time who 
were victims of circumatances beyond their control, and wa 
established for their benefit the highest soale of relief 
that haa prevailed on the North American continent. Wa alao 
■ada arrangements with the Uadical Aasociation of Ontario aa 
a result of which the medical needs of these man, voaan and 
children were taken care of and ware paid for out of tha 
revenues of the province. I think we did a fairly good Job. 
Now as to the delegation vhloh appeared before aa and 
in regard to whleh I was arlticlzed by the hon. Baabar. I 
noticed that tne children who aooGBq>aaied the delegation 
looked aa though thay ware well fed, and I aakad tham, "What 
la your oomplairt?* Thay all told the aaaia atory, these 
children, and so I asked them, *Were you instructed to tail 
■a that atory?* And they said, "Tea.* Then I aakad, *^r 
ahoa?" And thay pointed to two indlviduala who ware tha 
agitatora. Ona of these man was on rellaf. Ha did not 


f tevan bit io 

^ '-yii oj 


j &i; lis^ 

7,n J. <»/ SI d 7 X ^JB 

- T86 - 8-6-4 fi 

Mr. Etpbum (IlgiB) 

wftBt to work. I drop oX sweat oa hla t>ro« would har* oaaa aa 
rara aad praoioua aa aa atoa of radioB. It would hava exirad 
eaacar. Ha did not lataad to work. Ua orgaaited rallaf 
dlaturbaaoea not oaly la Oatario but ha vast oat to ziritlata 
Colufflbia aad did tha aama thia^ thara. ffa vara looklag for 
hln baoauaa ba was takiag raliaf la two prorlaoaa. That was 
o»a of tha ladlTldoala who waa arrastad at that tiaa. 

Tha othar IndlTidual waa avaa a littla woraa. Ha 
ma aa eaployaa of tha proviaolal Gorarament, or had baa a 
aajoylBg a vary raaponslbila aad lucrativa poaitioB with tha 
jLgrloulutural DaTalopoiaat Board. Thla fallow actually opaa* 
ad aavalopaa ooatalaiag tha aaall paymaata that farmara aaat 
la* Faraara who wera trylig to kaap up tha iataraat oa their 
■ortga^e. He stole the money, aad we were lookiag for him. 

UR. JOLLIFFE: The boa. member for Xlgia is referriag 
to a differaat oattar eatirely from the oae brought up the 
other day* The refereaoe of the hon. member for St. David 
(llr. Deaaison) was to tha Lakeview ease, aad the hoa. member 
lor £lgia ia disoussiag aaother case eatirely. There were 
four charged ia the Lakeview case. 

MR. HEPBURN (Slgia) I am diacussiag that case, whara 
theae oea were arrested. I am oitiag the oaae from aai&ory. 

MR. JOLLIFFB: Oaa of tha four was guilty of aaother 

MR. HXFfinHN (Blgia) : Do you waat to ohaaploa their 

MR. JOLLITFX: Tha people I an maatioaiag were 
•harged oa the iaatruotioaa of aor hoa. friaid oa two 
courta aad they wera coaTicted oa oae. That ooarictioa 
waa reversed by the Court of Appeal of Oatario, which waa 
upheld by tha Supreme Court of Caaada, aid they were all 

■r.Bapburn (ILftin) 

B9% fr«« eT«ntu«lly* 

UR. HBPBURir (llgin): I ab «p«aking froB mamorr but I 
know XhM fkota In the eftsa to whl«li I r«f«r. I was *tt«ek«d 

b«oaas« of what wera oallad th« Hapburn Huaaara balog aant 
Into Klrkland Laka at tha tiaa of tha atrilza. that actual- 
ly happenad waa that wa sant In tha ProTlneial Police wh«i 
tha municipality aakad for tbaa and said that tha situation 
was beyond their control, that women and children ware 
being intimidate4, that bricks were being thrown through 
their windowa at night, that men ware being beaten up and 
trucks upset on tha publlo highway and those riding in the 
trucks taken out. Ihaterer responsibility I hare now or 
Bay hare there la one thing I shall always do and that la 
Balntain law and order. I do not think bqt hon. friend who 
Is an organizer for the C.I.O., the hon. membar for Sudbury 
(Mr. Carlln), would want to lire where law and order was not 
Baintained. If he would I would not vant to meet hiB in a 
dark alley on a dark night. 

Hy hon. friend from York North (Mr. Mitchell) looked 
down from a rery high altitude with disdain upon what ha 
oallad tha old partiaa. I aB not aahamad of being a Baabar 
of an old party. Ita roots go back to tha 4aya of th« 
feudal lords, and it is beeause of that old p«rty that wa 
have to-day free schools and responsible goTaraaant. If I 
MBiBber aorreotly ay friend and I ware not far apart in 
politloal eaBpalgns in North York not rery long ago. Lot 
■a aaaure hlB that I at leaat aB not aataaaaA to baloag to 
one of tha old partiaa. 

I want to Bake a rafaranoa to another BBttor in whlab 
I waa BAda tha aubjeat of another eartoon. I refer now to tho 
hon. BOBbar for Bellwooda (Mr. HaoLaod). I aay with due 

'isov .-; It 0x17 fmoxMl CSV 

'>al^ Wfll 


' al i 
itBt baB sXoor. < orflil 

^•£{7ofl« lo 79a^(f£;e -8x17 Bboa aev I 

- ^9B - 9-6-45 

Mr«l«pburn (U^ln) 

Mspaot to all th« awibsrs b«r« that I did My publloly 
In Windsor tbat tba bon. nambar for Ballwoods bad norm 
bralna cban any otbar man in tbla House. I aay that In 
tba presanoa of bon. BCBbara. I as not a braaa bat; I 
as not a atuffad ahlrt; I bava not an agotlat^oal eon- 
plaeancy tbat you could not dant wltb a plolcaxa. I an 
Juat an ordinary buman indlrldxial. I bara not tbat 
auparlor oomplax wbioh botbara otbara ao muob. 

■bat actually bapponed tba otbar day was that tba 
bon. Bambar sent a paga from Tlma Maf^aslna orar to am 
containing an article In which he thought I would be 
interested. I sent it back to hia, and a few mlnutea 
later I reoelTed a note fron the bon. member for Carletoa. 
The exchange of notes was the cause of another cartoon 
beeauso apparently when the Prima Minister made hia refer- 
ence in the House to the incident, he was under the inures- 
alon tbat both notes came from the bon. member for Bell- 
woods, i^ioh waa not the oasa^ 



. 789 - ft-6-4S 

Mr. lOr. Hepburn. 

Howevor, It ^ve tUe Mall and ft&pire, — Olobe and iiail, ^^ 
"Itoll and Xmpira* la right, I guoaa, — an opportunity, 
another opportunity for another oartonn , 

In the ooursa of hla rtoarka tiie other day, the Bon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Dr»«) aade reference to the fact that at 
St. ThOBiaa I paid him a very'^nioe cofflpllBent. That was 
a yaar or so ago; and, after all, I did. He was a guest la 
my home town, and it was my prlTllege to do bo] oad I muat 
confess I did smother him with praise o 

HON. GXOaaS a. drew (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
it was not really the almost overdone compllmscts on that 
occasion, but I was referring to the Hon. aeffloer's (Mr. depburn) 
reaarks here at the Ontario Property Oimera* meeting. 

MR. M. P. HEPBURN (Xlgln): I noticed that the Hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Crew) almost purred over the remarlcs. 
I do not know whether he said anything nice about ae. If 
he did not, he certainly should have. Well, ha took great 
delight, the other day. In quoting from some observatlona 
I made during the last nineteen years; and I am not going 
to trouble the House with a review of his remarks; but I 
suppose they will^be la a^^ ate aga Byt because It is very 
seldom that I read a speeeh, and. as a rale. I speak very 
rapidly; and then am on s^ny ocoasicn misquoted. 

I know my friend from Xaat York (Miss Maophail) will 
approve that he is wrong Just once.. 

In 1956, about a year before the war broke out in 
September, 1939, he was quoted In MacLean's Ma^zine: 

"Last flOBBar my wife and I were in many parts 
of Oermmny and talked to many Oennana* Ivory- 
where we found friendliness and courtesy, 
utterly inconalatent with any goneral hatred 
of the British. On the contrary, tlaa and 
time again they went out of thalr way quite 
unneoasaarily to explain to ua that what tha 
Oeraana want more than anything tha 

i an&i 

- 790 - 3-6-46 

Mr. If.f .H«pburB. 

"uBdtntaBdiig of British ptopl*." 

That aaB« artiela proeaads to tail tha paopla of 

Oatarlo what cmr attltuda should bs towards tha c;araama: 

"Tha damaaAs oX tha Has! Party, whieh today 
spsaks for Garaaay, ara olaar. Thsy ars sot 
baaad oa tha hatrad of a ay aatloa or group 
of matioas. Thay ara tha rasult of racial 
prida, sxprsssiBg itself ia tsroa of tha 

futura »a will gat aowhsra if wa ba- 

liaTa that ths Ganaaas hats us or, if, on tha 
othar hand, thay bslisra that thay hats than. 
On tha contrary, I balisTS that ths majority 
of Garmaas waat British frisndship sad ws 
should also saak thaira** 

Is a progaoaticator hs arrsd ia that rsspsot. 

9h«rs is ao uss goiag oa to (^uota what hs said about 

Russia or aaythiag slss. I waat to ooiaa a littla asarsr 


Ha said ws stirrsd up disunity in rsgard to tha 

Sirois Rsport. Tha rsport was opposad by Brltiah Coluabia 

aad Albsrta, aot supportsd by ^usbsc. I aa not oppossd to 

a dlwisioa of ths waalth of Caaada with the iTestera 

ProTiaces although at tne outsst 1 was oas ol those who 

thought that ths proposal was mors a fiaaaoial swiadls thaa 

aaythiag slss: what we did opposa at Ottawa was aot 

distributiag our wealth or diwidiag it with ths poorsr 

proTiaoss, but it was tha gigaatie sohsms whieh thsy wars 

foistiag upon ths paopla of Caaada. For iastaaca, tha boada 

of Moatreal ware aaliiag at a vary low rats, aad Mr. Sirois 

a baak director, had ia his Base's posaassioa a larga auobar of 

those sama boads. 7s tnrs to pay to ths City of yoatrsal, 1 

bslieTS 40^ of ita fxiaded debt, soma aiaa miliioa dollars par 

aaaum irravooabla to tha Proyiaos of ^uabao. After dalibaratioa 

I ooacluded that he was a aaa who was goiag to sea his owm 

baak baaafitad to a great ex teat by tha paymeats to the City 

of Uoatreal. Je were to take over the boads of ths jTaatara 

FroTiacea which were sslliag as low aa 60 aad 6£, aad boada 

- 791 - a-6-48 

Hr* U.r.HspburB 

««r« btarlas aiz p«r oamt int«nit; aid with th« •■dortt- 
lioft of the P«d«ral GortraflWBt Xh%f would haT« adraBoad 
OT«r aight la prlc«. It would hart aaouatad to orar flva 
huBdrad BillloB dollars. 

Uy friead is straagaly ailaat, I did aot hear a 
pe«p out or him oa aocouat oX the Slrola Saport* 

HON. GSOROS A.SREW (PrliM Ulalatar): A raaolutioB 
was latroduoad lato this Houas baaad oa that tlaa upoa that 

MR. M.F.H£PBURNt If it was* it is atws to na. 
Wa will ask that they look up th« proctadiags of tha 

Uy friead the Prorlaoial Treasurer said I had aothlBB 
to do with colleotiTe bargaiaiag. I made the stateowat that 
I was the oae who made the motioa for collective bargaiaiag 
la this fiouae. May I sxiggett that ^ look up tha ?otea aad 
Proceediags of the 27th of February, 1943, aad he will flad 
that I was the oae who moved the resolutioa to set up a 
eofflfflittee to study eollaotlva bargalalag at that tima, aB& to 
report to the House. 

Now, I waat to deal with "Oatario Houae". I eadoraed 
the prlaoiple of re-establishlag the Oatarlo Houaa, baoauaa of 
the beaeflta which would accrue to our reteraaa aad flghtlag 
aaa overseas. I did not iatead it to be a duplioatioa of oar 
Oe par toe at of Trade aad Cooaarce la i^adoa; but I did thlak 
it would be of serrioe, as far as our soliiers are coaoeraed. 

I waa coaipletaly take a by aurprlaa whaa I fouad that 
our PriiBt MlBlster was ualag that for the purpose of brlaglat 
la a glgaatie immigratloB policy. 

IB his reaarka this afteraooa, he said that there waa 
Bo iateatioa of briaglBc these people to Caaada uatil all oar 


- T92 - 8-6-45 


owB soldiers were retxirasd to CaBSda aad 1b galBfal 

MR. CXORCS 1. SRXW (Prime Uimister) i That I said 

MR. M.F. HBPBURNi That 70a said that there was 
BO iBteatioB of briaglBS iaoigraata to Ontario uatil all 
our OWB soldiers were brought bacX aad placed 1b galBfal 

HON. azORGE A.DRSW (Prime Uiaiater) : Somethii« 
to that effect. 

UR. M. F. HEPBURN: There was ao time factor. 
H7 frlead has seat this publicatioa all over J^aglaad, 
with aa article sigaed by my hoa. frlead Beverley 
Baxter, with a pictxire of my friead The Prime UlBlster. 
1 do Bot alad that for a momeat. 

HON. GiSORaS A. DRXW (Prime Mlaiater): Hay I recall, 
Ifr. Speaker, that my friead made sure that his picture was 
iB the foreruaaer to this? 

HE. M.F. HEPBURN: v.'hat? 1 will deal with that 
a BosMBt later. 

MR.a.H. MITCHELL (York North): Who paid for thia 

HON. OEORSE A.SRBW (Prima Miaistar) It waa paid for 
by this ProriBce. It haa mbX goaa all over Eaglaad, becauaa 
«• started tryis^ to aead those orar last April, aad the hoik 
of thea have ^ust arrived ia the past couple of weeks. 

MR. M.F. HEPBURN: Mr. Sreaker, what I waat to state 
la that a determiaed effort la Doxag aado aow to gat iisaigraats 
to eoflM to this Proviaoe, aad largely uadar false prataaces. 
I hare before me the applieatloa form for registratloa, isvood 
UBdar the authority of the Oatario Gareraaeat; aad I luiTe n«ro 
a ASffloraadxiB seat out by Mr. Jaoaa P*AXBatroas, aa appoiataa 


- 793 - 3-6-46 


of this goTeramamtp who, I beliar*, hat oharga of thla 
partioularr aetlTity ia Oatarlo Housa la Loadoa, Ha aajrt, 
la part, "Tour ragiatratloa form haa baaa raoalTad aad ia 
raeordad. 'Natural ly you waat iaXoroatloa about your Xutora 
hooa, aad wa waat to glTa it to yoa. Thare ia ao aueh to 
tall. Toas of pamphleta ara raady for ahipmaat" — 
tha Priiaa Uiaiater aaya thera ia ao tiaa factor, -- "Wa 
hara avary raaaon to beliare that by a yaar followiag tte 
luropaaa war hxmdreds of thousands of Britona will bo 
allowed to moTa to our Province" — he said thare waa mo 
tljaa factor, — "Wa hare avory reason to balieva that by 
a year after the i.'uropean war hundreds of thooaaada of 
loropeana will be allowed to move to our Province — here 
ia the form now being filled out in Jtnglaad. Why doea ha 
want them here before our soldiers have bean rahabilitated? 

This says that eighty-five per cent of Ontario's 
antira area is still owned by the Ontario govermBant. What 
a stateoent, — eighty-five per cant of the barren waata of 
tha north which you could not sail even to an aakiao. 

The other day, ay hon. friaad taho sits right be- 
hind BIB questioned the Prime Minister aa to what waa his 
real purpose in bringing imaigranta to thia cooatry. 

HON. MR. DRIV: No, he did not. 

MB. HJIPBURN: Tea, he did, and I will road from tho 

pamphlet written by hia pal, Mr. Beverley Baxter: 

*Oae of thf life ia to aoe the 
aucoeas of a friend that one haa known since 
boyhood. Colonel George Drew, the Prliae 
Mlaiatar of Ontario, who ia now in London, 
waa bora la Oaalph, a town aituated a hundred 
ml lea or ao from Toronto. 

1 could not tall you when we firat mat, 
It ia ao long ago, but it waa abvioua to aay- 
oaa in thoaa day a that Drew woold aover ba 


- 7»4 - 8-6-45 


*« fucoeti. Ha was too «^ood looklag." 

Nov, Mr. baxtor prooeaaa, -- ^h, tbis !■ woaderful,— 

He aald — 

*Tha othar night «a aat 1a hia auita at tha 
Saroy a&d talkad isto tha aoall hoara of tha 
moral as* la wait orar tha pa at but «a aTaatti- 
allj tnraad to tha Tivtura. 

*Baz* ha a|iid, 'I waat that Britiah 
a took for OKtario. 7a caa taka thouaaada aad 
tkoaaaada ot* your paopla. tha oaa thiag 
that oaa kaap tha Fraaeh Camadlaa prasaora 
withia bouads la a atroa^ OBtario paoplad by 
Britiah atock'"* 

Do you raeall aayiag that, or aot? 

UR. DRSff: I aaid vary definitely that I waa aot 
•ware of the ooateata of that, aor do I reoall that coB:ver- 
aatioa* But, if the Hob. loambar waata artlolea writtea 
about BlJB by the aajaa writer, it would be iatereatlag, b«<- 
eauae you will reoefflber that whea aomebody eajaa to the Clag 
Bdward Hotel he aaid thiags about tha Horn, neaber which ha 
objected to. 

I oertaialy will welooae to thia Proriace, whea tha 
tiiae cooaa, atoek of those people who will keep thia 
proTlaoe Britiah. 

IB. A. BIUBSKB (Fraaooti) i Will you waleoaa tham 
for that particular reaaoat 

IS. SAIW: I do aot iataad to hare the hoa. aaabar 
add oaa word. But let ae say thia, for the hoa. aamber for 
ll^ia ilir. Uepbura) la tryiag to atir up aatioaal hatred, 
let me remiad him that he did aueh thia^a a year a^o. 

UR. HIPBURN: I deay that. 

How, apeakiag of the aoldiera* brldaa ooalas to Cajiadas 

"Ooa't oritlciae hia former aweathearta. 
lak them to your hooae whea he la there aad 
biad them to you. They will beooaa your 
real friends for the Caaadlaaa are aaturally 
kiad aad deoaat. 

Ranambar this, Caaada la a paradlae for 
•hildrea aad if yoor heart la loaely for 


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blMB eH 


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9X1 »u, . i?iica« a^xn; dibs 9a xbjo:i xtisw-Oft 

.0? bet OBl^o 

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tfteil;^ aatooXaw ^•••rt) ftaOMAJSE .k,m 

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TOl leo «!c j-- ,JEncir o«o Jbfia 

B a^= ad 7«d;t aiti rmlaBi am taX 

•■ -t fliail* jCbA 

siBdt ha Id 

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^\t lacfxaamaS 

-796 - 8-6-46 


*«ld Irleidt •»! for th« •«••( •aailiig 
lagllah oooatryaida lira for yoor ohlldraa 
«Bd oaka tbalr happiaasa youra. AboTa 
all, raallse that you ara bulldara of 
Aapira aa nuoh aa oar aaoaa^ora who vaat 
oat thara aid blasad the trail through 
Tirgia foraata aad by rlrara without aa 

Amd if you hava aay aarioua oott" 
plaiata writa to Prime Miaiatar George 
Drew if you happen to lire ia Ontario.* 

So that aeta hlA up aa a aolomoa who oaa aolve 


I see there haa beea a deteimiaed effort to briag 
liflOLigraBta, before the time a year haa expired after 
thia war. I quote H^a stateffleat ia the Loadoa Tioaa: 
"let them all oowe . ffe have a populatioa of twelve 
millioaa, aad could eaaily hare fifty odllioaa." 

Now, if you think there is ao effort beiag made to 

iaduoe these people to ooooe to Ontario, let laa read tha 

heading, writtea by his owa orgaaizatioa ia Baglamd, 

drawing a brief picture. Thia is what hia owa apoiataa 

said, Jaaaa F<JLnB8troag: 

"After fiTe years ia ttritoa, in Auguat I 
▼iaited Ontario, lit hooa; it was like goiag 
to aaothar world, a fairylaad, aad you aay 
be iaterested ia what I say, — crowded 
atreets with ereryoae in Pala Beach auBBar 
suitiag amd atraw hats, vonaa ia light 
oolourad orgaadies, saady beaches throoghoat 
ox&r lake diatrict, crowded with people 
baakiag ia the hot aun; peachea, grapea, 
■aloaa, aad tobacco beiag left to rot for 
waat of labour to harreat tha crop}* — 

aad ay friead, Just tha other day, was wonderinit what had 

happeaad to our tobacco, -- 

"••ararybody workiag, ao uaamployad. high 
«a«as — high ataadard of liriag, ail coa- 
fident of thair future, all participating 
ia sport aad yat all boaily aagagad ia 
▼arioua forma of war effort, fa ara proud 
that ia apite of oar aaiataaaaoa of paaee- 
tiaa aaaaitiea our proriace aloaa haa coa- 
tributed oTer fifty per ceat of Canada *a 
satire war effort, ffe are Britiah to tha 
eora aad with your help iatead to raaaia that 
way. ffhea you eoae to ua it will ba lika 



Ov H D^v 

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, *nor> fir. 


•^iSW 61 lit JI© 

^fi eioo 

- ?96 - 8-6-45 

Mr •!!•?• Hep burn 

'BOTiag trom Dtrom to JCeBt -• we apaak th« 
ntmm toaga«, hare th* sum respect for 1«« 
aid order, the same fuadaneatal outlook ob 
life, honour the aaae flag aad aiag '^od 
Sare the Kiag" with the aaae Tiger aad rer- 
eraace. la feurteea houra after learlag 
Caaada I was agaia la Britaia," 

Now, I tblBk I hare eatabliahed that you are there 

tryiag to mialead the people of Oatario, or to aialead the 

people in J^aglaad. There is a gigaatio aoheaa uader 

way, with whieh I shall deal in a few aoaeata. 

Paga 79T followa) 

bdi bB 


I «»oM 

- 797 - 9-6-48 

Mr. I>r«« 

UR. DRKf: Mr. Weaker, Just to k««p this on if tntk, 
th« hon. muBb9T for Blgln (Mr. Hepburn) has, of eouraa, baas 
quoting from an artlcla vhloh, aa I hara aald, waa wrlttan 
without my knovladga, Juat aa aoaa of the very oholoa ariiciaa 
about him were written without hia knovladga, and whoaa 
authenticity he has questioned very vigoroualy. Ba saa not 
quoting my atataioant ; ha was quoting somebody alae'a. Z 
atand by any a ta tenant I hare aada, and I do not in any way 
raserre any atatemant aa to the fact that, in apeaJclog of 
Ontario, I spoke of the tongue we speak, because the language 
of Ontario offlelally la Sngliah, and I have no healtatlon IB 
aaying ao. 

I want to say thia, that the whole stateraant that has 
been made, has been aada for the purpose of ereatlng an iMf 
praaalon, tied to an earlier statement, aa to what our aotlrea 
are, and I think before he goes much further the hon. aambar 
for Ilgin should explain to thla Legislature why when refer- 
ring to Quebec he said, "The tail eannot wag the dog forever; 
if It doea, thla nation is doomed.* 

MR. HKPBDBM (Klgin): I do not think there ia anything 
80 offensive in that, oompared with the address made by the 
hon. Prime Mlnlatar (Mr. Draw) on the 9th of Auguat laat, 
dallberataly trying to create national dlaunlty, and to areata 
a daTll*8 brew, as I hawe aald before. 

After ha made hia apaaoh -- and I •■ now quotlnc tram 
Mr. 7. B. risher, who wrote from Ottawa tba following day -^ 
the day following the eddresa which the hon. Prima Mlnlatar 
la now trying ao hard to gat out of by referring to what I 
iMva aald about the Right Hon. Mackenzie King. fell, no 
■attar what I may have aald about him, I baTa navar triad to 
ouat him as the leader. 

'8 97 e f''*' -■ 'r J'-t'rn nfl rrrrT*! Tint to no 

d iUJi 8TTOB91 


- T Bdi -xol •fijir - -- " - - — -r aao^ erf a Srp A-rs 

jd[d- sew .t0i eifT" ,fiiea «ri OfKJexjp oJ sail 

I^^M) itaUQtSH .AM 

■sai aeeT&he arl? dJiT 6»TBfTSoc . tsilt at erlaflsHc .n 

^-!i da it ao {vrzu .im; ie)«liii:ai d^xlil .aoii 

aa 9tB9'^ LmtBfiitlBb 

■ ' i seqs aid ©fc*i?' 

-"■- "'■'■'' • ' "001 I iBdv ne^^flffl 

- 7»8 - 3^^45 

llr,Ilti.burn (11«1b) 

aoifll fiOli. lOMBnS: Oh, oh. 

MR. HIPBUBN {SlglD): Can't you *taktt It* orsr tber«, for 
• llttla «hll«t 

Tba day after ha nada that famoua apaaeh, ob Au^at 

9th, a apaaah which ha is no* trying to break away fron, Mr, 

yiahar, the l^elagraa obaarrar In Ottawa, a parllaaantary 

oorrespondent, said: 

"Bringing out baby bcnua at 
Bajor political issue is aenaatlcn at 

"To follow Drew laad could nean 
Tory avaap In eight of nine prorlncaa 
la Tlew expraasad — Ingllah-apaaking 
Canadlana said ready for showdown over 
Quebec rule." 

So, tlaa and again, we find the hon. Prime Ulnlater making 

efforts to oreate national disunity In this country, not oaly 

•moDgat the people of Quebec, but throughout the reat of 

Canada, amongst other minorities, and I think one of the 

moat offanalve thlaga ha has done Is the very thing ha 

prided himself about a few mlnutaa ago, In reference to 

this religious education In the schools. If ha had any 

thought of going ahead with It, he would hare laid down a 

definite policy. Aa It la now, you cannot make head nor 

tall out of It. 

MR. DRSl: Kay I ask the hon. member If ha haa read 
the textbookT 

MR. RMPBUBN (Blgln): Tea, I have It hare. X wonder 
If the hon. Prime Mlnlater haa read It, baoauae If ha haa, ha 
would not hare asked me to refer to It, beoauaa X will ahoa 
how aalnlne the thing la. 

Bare It la, at page 25: 

"Mo pupil shall be required 
to take part In any rellgloua azar- 
oiaea or ba auSjaet to any inatruotion 
in rellgloua adaoatlon to lAleh objaa- 
tion la ralaed by his parant or goartian.* 

.;aee •-; 


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- 7»« - 9-fr-40 

Mr.Bapburn (Ugln) 

So, hara «• hart parhapa ooa llttla fallov, atyb* 

of Jawlab birth, aittlng in aebool, and vbac tbay atari In 

vlth rallgiooa aducatlon, be baa to alt with bla faea to tht 

vail or aoBathlng. Tban It goea on: 

<*In achoola wltbout aultabla 
waiting rooma or otbar similar aoaoa- 
modation, if tbe parant or guardian 
applies to tbe principal for tba 
ezamptlon of bis child or ward froB 
attendance while religioua azaroiseo 
are being held or religioua education 
giran, auob raqueat aball be granted.* 

So he oan gat out» if be wants to. 

Then aubseatlon (c): 

*lf the parent or guardian 
objeeta to his child or ward taklr.g 
part in religious exerelses or being 
subjeat to inatructiona in religious 
education, but requeats that he aball 
remain in the seboolroon during the 
time devoted to such education, the 
teacher shall permit him to do so, 
provided he malntalna decorous 

So there he la parmitted to sit in, but takes no part, but 

Jttat be amongst those present. 

fell» you oan go on and on. We are proteatlng 
against that, and we aball regiater our protest in no un- 
certain way, in a few minutes. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to apeak for a BOMnt to mj 
friends of the C.C.F,, beeause I gare notice of aotion to-daj 
to repaal the Optometry Act. I know tbia Act aaa put through 
laat year by the hon. Mttbar who la now the hon. Mlnlatar of 
Planning and Development (Mr. Portar). Ha waa not a Mlnlatar 
at that time; it waa a private Baaber'a bill* It waa put 
through to fulfil tbe pre-election pledge. 

Bow, the hon. neaber for St. David (Mr. Dennlson) haa 
apoken of the little children. fell, we had the rasponal- 
blllty of feeding and clothing them, and taking care of their 
■edloal needs and dental needa, including the buying of eye 

'Ati »W -■' 


,it. <ji. o2 

:,uiii 8C. ;£iiJ(, 

erl* lo nsaloqe 

- 900 - 3-6-46 

■rJtopburm (Xl«la) 

glasses, aid wa found a aafarloaB situatloa exlatiag, ba- 

oauae oadar aa old Tory statata the optooatrlsta of tba 

proTiaoa were able to fl«eoa tha publie to their heart*! 

eoateat. There wae a furore of protest » aad rightly so, 

at the extreoe powers they had seated la their orgajtlsatloa 

by the Tory goverameat of soiae years before. They were 

eTea able to peaalise aad to withdraw the lloeaoes of 

opteaetrista offeadiag, by selUag eye glasses at a reasoa- 

able price. So, with the support of the Hooae we were able 

to pass a iBsasure givlag greater freedom to the 

optoaetrlsts aad removiag froa their baolis this thlag whieh 

was presalag them down, aad which was allowiiu' eertaia of 

them to fleece the purohasiag public to their heart's 


fell, aloag came the election, aad as I said last year 

whea I opposed the amendmeat which restored this same extreme 

ezploitlBg power to the optoaetrlsts — I read the letter 

which committed the Goreramoat with the except ioa of two 

■embers, who are sittiag opposite me, the hoa. member for 

Beeches (Mr. Murphy) aad the hoa. member for Huroa (Mr. Taylor), 

aad to them I waat to pay my tribute beoause they did sot fall 

la llae. This was a oommltmeat writtea by the hoa. i^rime kuaia^ 

ter of this proTlaoe, la which he said: 

"I hawe beea iaformed of the 
latolerable treatmeat which your pro- 
fessioB has reeelred at the heads of 
the Liberal Sorarameat --" 

fhe *latoieraDie treaUQeaf oeiag forced to compete aad sell 

eye glasees to men, woaea aad ohildrea at a reasomable price. 

Thea he ctoes oa: 

"tnis is la marxed coairaat to 
The rapid Improyeaeat la the status 
of your professloB which occurred 
UBder the proTioua Coaaerratitre 



1 '; A' 

amvajxe ecui 

^ alio 11*^.'; 

>^A« *:^ 

- 801 - 5-ft-45 

lfr»B«pburn (Bl^n) 

Nb «ond«r thay "laprorad it** They oould otaarct 

$20, or |30, or $40, or $S0 for aye glasses worth about |e. 

*If the Progressive OonserTstlTe 
party Is returned to power I promise a 
full Inyestlgation of the Optometry Aoti 
so thst It will be in keeping with the 
AtBOoratlc principles for which we are 

Oh, how glibly the hon. Prime Minister talks about 

*ds«ocratlo principles.** He even has them In the eye 

glass business now. 

•With this In Tlew I trust you 
will not only use your vote for the 
Progressive ConserTatlTe caivlldate In 
your riding, but also will exercise 
your Influence on behalf of the 
Conserratlve party personally.* 

What has happened since then? I have a file here. 
There has been a wave of protest from all over Canada, news- 
papers — even including the Globe and Hall — have taken 
vicious exception to the measure passed by the Government, 
and with the support of my good friend sitting at my right. 

I know the hon. Minister of Health (Mr. Vivian) has 
not had the courage to Implement the commitments aade by 
his leader. I know he has not permitted then to abolish 
advertising, and I will make sure that the affair is taken 
out of their hands, and for that reason I have given notice 
of motion to amsnd the bill, putting it baek where it was 
when there was free competition In the eye glass business. 

Row, Mr. Speaker, I will not take much more of your 
time. I UB Just going to say that I have probably erred 
again to-day in dealing with personalities. I know that I 
have the face of the hon. Prime Minister very red, but he has 
had mm in that position occasionally, you know — *An eye for 
an eye; a tooth for a tooth.* 

But we have a wonderful country here in Canada. We 


•.?i I)S-vo'iqEi" 




5 2ifl9q< 


3ffl bfirl 


- 802 - 3-6-45 

llr»B«pburn (n^in) 

haTs fr«e sehools; we hare rtsponsibla gorarxinant; va hara tba 

naehlnary with which to maintain a trained damocracry; wa ean 
produce far In excess of our own raquiramants, aiid il^at balnf 
tba oasa, the only thing that raaaina la national unity, and 
I hopa that no Issue will be created in thla poroTlnoa '•'•^^'^b will 
-vir up race against race and creed against oread. 

The hon. Prima Minister has asked to concentrate all 
of our afforta on the war. We gave him the green light a 
year ago, and told him to go abead, and in appreciation he 
aaid , "If you do not like what I am doing, all you haTe to do 
is challenge me and we will let the people decide." Well, 
Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether we are at that point or 
not, but if the time comes to ehallenga the hon. Prima 
Minister I will not hesitate one iota, bacauae I feel that 
the interests of the people of Ontario are paramount to the 
aggrandizement of any political party, even in war time. 
I hope that an election can be obviated, at the same time we 
will not become a political nonentity in this House, so we 
will fight these things which we think are in the interests of 
the people as a whole. JLnd, I may say, we will fight them on 
the hustings as well* 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have an aBendment here, if I can 

find it -- 

MB. VIVIAN: How about some eye glassest 

MR. HE P BUHN (Blgin): I must have thrown It away. Oh, 
here it la. I more, seconded by Mr. Nixon, that the amendment 
now before the House be amended by adding thereto the follovlng 


"This House further regrets: 

1. That the Oorernment has reveraed our 
traditional policy of noxt-aearetarian 
public schools by introducing a progrm 

- S08 - 


sell svcil 




»\,« 6mc „3ii 


: eJ^iopr 


- 80a - 3>fr-4S 

Mr.Bcpbarn (U^Id) 

of religious aducAtlon «biob naa 
caused disunity among larga 
saotlona of our paopla, and tiaa 
thereby Tlolated the oherlabeA 
denooratle right of eaeh to wor- 
ship aoeordlng to his oousolence, 
free frca Interference by the 
State ; 

£. That the OoTernaent, without any 
sandate froa the Legislature, 
has given lll-oonsldered eneourage- 
■ent to large- aoale Ininlgratlon 
before providing adequqte safe' 
guards to ensure full eapIoyiMnt 
for our war veterans and present 
war workers." 

m. DRZW: I Just want to dlreet attention to one more 
thing the hon. neBber for Ugln said with regard to charging 
us with breach of faith. the renarks which he ridiculed, 
and which he read Into the record on religious education In 
the schools was In force while he waa the Prenler, relating 
to the religious education then being adopted. 

MR. A. ▲• MaeLBOD (Bellwoods)t Ur» Speaker, In view 
of the lataziess of the house, I move the adjournment of the 

UR. DREW: Ur. Speaker, I do not think we should have 
an adJouriBent of the debate now. le still have thirty^ 
five nlnutea. 

Motion aegatlve4. 

UR. MaeLIOD: Ur. Speaker, I am challenging the ruling 
on the vote* 

UR. SPKAKSR: fell* I heard more nays than u^vo. Do 
you wish the vote recorded? 

MR. BRU: Ur. Speaker* If the hon. Bieaber for Bellwooda 
{Ui, MacLeod) does not desire to go on, then I certaioxy ao not 
wish to create an laaue on this, and we can start alttlng at 
nlghta and hear the Llheral-CooBunlat tie-up on other oocealons. 

MR. UaeLIGD: You cannot "take It.* Ur. Speaker, on 

■c &b 




- eC4 - 5-fr-4S 

Mr. MicUod 

that point, «hat I haTa just dona In Boring tba adJoursBant 
of the debate, as aTery hon. Bambar in this Houaa knows, la 
a vary cus^cAsry prooadura, and rery, very raraly doas anyona 
go on to speak in a major debate of thia kind at five- thirty 
in the afternoon, and the hon. Prime Ulnlatar knova it, and 
he would be the laat man in this Houaa to atart speaking at 
fiYe> thirty o'clock. He did the other day, and talkad a 
lot of nonaanse, which you oould hare aaid in two minutaa. 

MR. DREW: Of course, I pay no attention to what the 
hon. member for Bellwooda has just aaid, but I atartad 
apeaking the other day, beaause of a very planned inter- 
ruption, at a quarter to aix. 

UR. H. C. NIXON (Brant): Tou were simply continuing 
the debate. 

MR. liaoUtOD: Tou said absolutely nothing in half an 

M. HEPBURN (Elgin): I thought we challenged your 
ruling, Mr. Speaker. 

MR. JOLLIFFI: I know the ruling waa ehallaaged, but 
with the consent of the House I would like to say thia: I 
do not know — and I would like to know — whether there waa 
any underatanding between the Thipa on thia matter and» another 
thing, without endorsing all the hon. member for Bellwooda (Mr. 
MacLeod) haa aaid, it doaa aeem to ma that when a party leader 
gets his turn in a debate aa important as this debete, it Is 
oustoaary to concede something to his oonranlenoe, par- 
ticularly when the House it meeting as late aa it is to-day. 
The other day, the hon. Prima Hiniater chose to go on at a 
quarter to aiz. 

m, NIXON: He did not eoBBaaoe hia addraaa then. 

MR. JOLLini: Had the hon. Prime Minister desired to 


«66 ttaOi 



H9 - 609 - Vft-4S 

Ut» J oil if f« 


adjourn the d«b«t« at that tlBa» I do not think any hoa. 

nam bar of thla Houaa would hare objaatai. 

MR. MacLICD: And ha knova that. 

MR. DRU: I aald. Mrf Spaakar, I would not ralaa azqr 

obj action If tha hon. mambar for Ballvooda la not x«a4y to go 

on. Wa can aaally overaoma that by aranlng slttlnga. I 

moTe cho adjourncant of tha Houaa. 

MR. JQLLIFTB: May Z aak the hon. Prlas Mlnlatar to 
Indlcata to tha Houaa what will ba tha aatura of tha hualn«aa 
to^Qorrow, and It may alao be conreniant for hija to Indioata 
at thla tlsia whether tha debate juat adjournad will ba ooxf 
tlnuad on Thursaay* 

Ml* DRH : Tea. The debate will oartalnly ba coo- 

tlnued not later than Thuraday, and posalbly to-morrow, If wa 
flnlah other bualnaaa In tlaw. 

Motion a^eed to and the House adjourned at 5.30 o'clock 


- 806 - 



Toronto » Ontario, 
Vodnatday, LLareh 7, 1945. 

aPIAKXB: ilocourabia Bili.iaB J. Stawart, C.B«I. 

Tba Houaa oat at 3 o'clockc. 

Prayara . 

UR. SPSIKSB: Presantlng patltlona. 

Reading and raoalrlng petitions. 

Presenting reports by connai ttaea . 


HON. LSSLII U. FROST (Provincial Treaaurer^ : I hm% 
leave to move, seconded by llr« Draw, that this Houaa viU, 
on Friday next, resolve Itself into a Comiaittea of Supply. 

MB. EDWARD B. JOLLIFFI (Leader of the Opposition): 
Before tha notion carriea, votild the hon. Provincial 
Traaaurer explain the course ha ia taking? la thia the aaaa 
course tnat was ta&an last year? 

MB. FROST: I do not think there is any diffaranca. 
By next rrldav wa will be at the comiBeneMsiaiit of the fourth 
vaak or the sxi tings or me liouaa, and ma fiaoal year aada 
on March 31st, and I think that the leader of tha opposition 
(Mr. JoUiffe) will acknowledge that we have financial Bat- 
ters of soma iaportanca to be considered at this Sasaion and 
at thia tima. Tha purpoaa of introducing tha not ion at thia 
tlaa ia to place before tha Houaa tha financial poaitioa of 


- 807 - »*7HIS. 

Mr. TtoBt, 

the budget of th« prorlnce* 

Am regards procedure, we are following, Identieallj, 
the saiM prooedure as was followed In IMS. 

UR. JOLLIFTI: The hon. ProTlnolal Treasurer will be 
making his budget speech on Friday? 


I beg leave to mova, seconded by Mr. Drew, this House 
will, on Prlday next, reeolTo itself Into a Committee of Wajrs 
and Ueana. 

UR. UITCHXLL F. mPBURN (Slgin): This is unusual pro- 
cedure. I might say, as a matter of fact, it la custooiary to 
conclude the addresses in reply to the Speech from the Throna 
before bringing down the budget, and I want to protest against 
this unusual prooedixre. Our group is prepared to rote against 
this motion. I do not see any undue haste. There is an amend- 
ment and a sub>amendnent which may determine the fate of the 
GoTernment, and I think we should vote on this particular 
measure before any further action is taken. 

UB. SPEIKSR: Is It the pleasure of the House the 
motion shall carry? 

80ia HON. IIBIBKRS: Nay. 

UR. JOLLIFFI: Does the hon. rrovinelal Treasurer (Mr. 
Frost) have in mind that when he mskes his bucigut speecn on 
Friday the debate custcnarily known as the budget debate will 
follow? And, vhBt has he In mlol with respect to the debate 
now in progress on the ;«peech from the Throne? I think «• 
Blg^t be clear about this if we knew Just what the ooverxMsnt 
baa In mind on those points 

BON. GSORd A. DRKl (Prime Ulhister) : We have no In- 
tention of In any way interfering with the prooedure. It la 
the intention to present the budget and then provide ample 

808 - 5-7-46. 

Ur. Draw. 

opportunity to d«al with th« debate on that. Tha laadar of tta« 
oppoaltioQ [Ut^ Jolllffa) will raoall laat year thara waa aoaa 
orltlolaa, and I think with aerlt, of the naoaaalty for crowd- 
ing things too cloaaly together at the end of the Seaa Ion, and 
by following this couraa It will be poaalbla to cring In astl- 
■atas aeparately, and dlacuaa them In an orderly way. 

VR. JOLLIFFS: I q>iite ar.ree. (und I think all those In 
this group do,; cnat mora tine sixtuia no devoted to the aatl- 
aatea, and I would Ilka to facilitate '.hat course, but having 
apoken myself at sona length, I am a little oonoemad about the 
position of the hon. Taeahera who also wish to participate In 
that debate, and I think It la only fairt aa I aada, perhapa, 
the longest speech, — I would like some assurance that the 
other hon. members will ha-va a reaaonabla opportunity to speak 
on the motion and the amandment during the next week or two. 

UR. DRZf: I can assure the leader of the opposition 
t)iere Is no thought, whatever, of restricting, by a minute, the 
tlaa of any hon. member of the Legislature who wishes to speak 
on the debate on the Speech fran the Throne or on the budget 
debate. I will be very happy to meet the convenience of the 
Legislature as to setting aside time to carry forward the debate 
on the Speech from the Throne, but this course la anticipated to 
make It poeslble to present estimates In an orderly way by 
putting the budget forward In this way. 

UR. BIPBUBH (Blgln): There Is no use disguising the 
fact this la obviously an attempt on the part of the Oovemment 
to throttle the debate on the Speech f^cm the Throne, and, aa 
far as our group la concerned, wc aze voting against this 
measure right &o«, and I think you should call the aeflbera. 

I:R . SPEAKER: Is It the pleasure of the House that the 
motion snaxi carry? 

- 609 - 


80III BON. UHeSRS: Tett. 
soul Hon. 1IBBBB8: Nay. 
IB. 8PBAXIR: Call In the 
Th« Houae divided on the aotlon whleb was carried on 
the following division: 


Mr* Drew 


Hepburn (Xlgin) 

MTo Doucett 



Hr, Blaokwell 



Mr. Froat 



Hr. Kennedy 



Mr, Dxmbar 



MTo Vivian 



Mr. Thoopson 



Mr. Daley 



Mr. Porter 



Mr« Acrea 



Mr. Uurphy 





Mr. Taylor 



Mr. Scott 



Mr. Stewart 



Mr. Dent 



liT. Arnott 



Mr« Duckworth 



Mr. Murdoch 



Mr« Roberta 

Mr. Hepburn (Prince Edward) 

Mr. Reynolda 

Mr. ratriek 

Mr. Goodf allow 

- 810 - 3-7-45, 

Ur. Hall 

Mr. Hanna 

Mr. Martin 

Mr. McDonald 

Mr. Johnaton 

Mr. MoPhaa 

Mr. Mclntyra 

Mr. Robaon 

Mr. Jon Iff • 

Mlsa Macphall 

Mr. Locl(hart 

Mr. Laavena 

Mr. Benoatt 

Mr. AndaracQ 

Hr. Millard 

Mro Caaaalman 

Mr. Ilai'vay 

MTo Staal 

MTo Taylor (Tamlakaming) 

Mr. Warren 

Mr. Mitchell 

Mr. Connor 

Mr. Strang* 

Mr. l>anaxaoa 

Mr. cruoBoatt 

Mr. Xahoa 

Mr. Robertson 

Mr. Robinson (Port Arthur) 

Mr. Broan 

Mr. Thomberry 

Mr. Carlln 

- 8U - 3-7-45. 
Tl A 8 
Mr. Cook 
Ur, Riggi 
Mr. OTarall 
Utc Docker 
Ur. Smith 


• 81£ - 9-7-45 

UB, SPKAKER: Introduction of BllXa. , 

UH. WILLIaM USHNI30N (3t. DttTld): Mr. Speaker, I beg 
to move, seconded by Ur. Xehoe (Cochrane North) for leare to 
Introduce a bill Intituled an Act to authorize the appointment 
of an Ontario fuel Coaalsalon. 

Motion agreed to and Bill read the first tla*. 
UR. CHAALES H. MAJffIN (Ualdloand-Norfolk): Mr. Speaker, 
I beg leave, seconded by Ki*. Uordooh (K;ieez South) to Intro- 
duce a Bill intituled An Act respecting the Ontario Uualc 
Teachers' ASsociuti-jn, ana taut the same be read the first 

Idotion aj^^reed to and Bill read the first time. 
kL.u hAiua c. l;iAuN (Brant): Ur oDeaker, I think the 
House would be interested in the appointment of a fuel oobm- 

UR. DEMNISON: Mr. Speaker, this Is an Act ehioh would 
authorize the setting up of a body who would do for wood and 
fuels the same aa Is now done by the Hydro for hydro power. 
The Bill would assure this Province of a properly planned 
supply of fuel in winter and sunmer. It would look after 
the wholesaling of that fuel, and It would see that dealers 
are supplied with proper supplies of fuel. 

MR. BAART C. NIXONt How do you propose to pay for tlio 
cost of the commission? 

UR. UKNHISOB: In the sams way as we pay for the Bydro. 
This Bill does not spend any money, but when the Legislature 

(Page 613 follows) 

- 815 - 5-7-45 

Mr. Mnnison. 

or the goTernment so d«cld« they BMy aut&orlzo that this 
group of psople be set up *ho will do for fuels Just about 
«hat unit oeen doue for byuro. Hydro has sared the people 
of this Province twenty-five million dollars a year. This 
board might not save so uuch money, tut It would serve 
juut us useful a function, 

Ua, 0. ANDSESON (Fort ffllliam): Ur. Speaker, I 
beg to move, seconded by ilr . Taylor, that leave be given to lntr( 
duce a Bill latituiea An ^ct to Aoena the Municipal Act 
and that the Bill be noe read the flrat tins. 

Untion agreed to and Bill read the flrat tins* 
Uoij. G. U. UUi4iuii (Provincial secretary); May «• 
have an explanation of that Bill? 

kit. a1II>ERS017: It Is Just pernlaslve while the war 
is on. 

HON. v>XOiK}S H. DOUCETT (Minister of Public Works): 
Mr. Speaker, 1 move, seconded by Mr. Frost, that leave 
be given to Introduce a Bill to amend the Dog Tax and 
Live ;itock Protection Act, and that the same be now read 
the first time. 

Motion agreed to and Bill read the first tlas* 

MH. ROBKHTS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by Mr. 
Hepburn (Prince Idward), that leave be given to Intro- 
Quoe a Bill intituled An ^ut to authorize the Corporation 
of the City of Toronto to Plan and Zone the Municipality, 
and that the same be now read the first time* 


BBS - 814 - 3-7-45 

Motion agreed to and Bill read tbe first tlaw* 

IB. ROUSO BXCIN (Buasell)! Will the Honourable 
the ILlnlster explain the Bill to amend the dog tax and 
lire stock protection Act? 

in. DOUCSTT: "Hila la only an Act to prorlde for 
a by-law to pay for aheep killed by dogs and wild 
animalBo This has been r«co::::jended by County Councils 
tad others. 

lA. G. H. UITCEELL (North York): Ur, Speaker, 
■Ay I ask a question of the Hon. Uinlater? Ihile the 
point has not been recognized In the past, the provision 
should extend to huaan belngso Va had an experience 
about a month ar.o where a dog attacked a newa boy and 
the boy was badly bitten up; emd the owners of the dog 
had not the ability to pay damages. Many letters hav* 
been received pointing out the very thing that I am 
pointing out now that If indennity is to be paid for 
animals danagsd, the saaa arrangsoonts should be nade for 
dansgss to individuals. 

m. A. KELSO ROBERTS (St. Patrick) :' Ur. 
Speaker, I move, seconded by Ur* Hepburn (Prince Bdveird), 
that leave be given to Introduce a Bill entitulod An 
▲ot respecting the City of Toronto, and that tho Bill bo 
now read the first tlas* 

Motion agreed to and Bill read the first tlao. 

HON. G.H. DOUCSTT (Minister ,t Public <forks: 
|fer« Si^aker, I move, seconded by Mr. Frost, that loav* 
be given to introduce a Bill entltuled An Act to AaosA 
the Statute Labour Act, and that the sans be now read 
the first tuae. 


jja evil 


ao I v«o<w a«ecf 

•-Offl JB 

.9101;} ^a-xx^ •di 

- 815 - 3-7-45 

llotlOD agreed to and Bill raad tha firat tint. 

CLSRX or THE HOIOS: Thla la a Bill antitulad an 
Act to anand tha Statute Labour Ac to The firat reading 
of the Blllu 

HON. GBOBQB H. DUNBAR (Pravlnolal Secretary): Ifr. 
Speaker, I boto. seconded Dy Mr* Vlrlan, That leare be 
given to Introduce a Bill entituled An Act to Conf Ira Tax 
Salaa. and that the aaoa be no« read tha firat time. 

Motion agreed to and B)ll read the first tine. 

W, DOUCSTT: llr opoaker. I aove. seconded by 
Itr. Froat; that leave be given to Introduce a Bill entituled 
An Act to aaend The Bees Act^, and that the saaa be now 
read the first tluio 

liotion agreed to and Bill read tha firat 

AN HON. LOSUBER: Ur. Speaker will the hon. 
Minister ej^iaiu \,Qe u-117 

MR. DOUCETTi 1 might aay.^ and I quote Ur^ 
DennlsoH; that it is a further erploitation of the bees« 
It gives the tLinister per£;issien to aeaignate an area 
for the raising of queen Beea^ and alao the registration 
of bees oomlng In from outside Ontario; to be registered 
with the Apiariat of the Departiaant of Agriculture, 
at Quelph; and also regulating the ahlpplng of beea and 
tha food that must be fedo 
Mo honey must be with thee.-, but candy* 

MB. M. I. UKPBUBN (Sl«ln) : Ifr. c>peaker, I want 
to remind the Hauae that a iaoaant ago we voted to allow thm 

government to brine ^^ ^^* biulcat on Yrldaj. I ask for your 

legal ruling. 1 have before oa no« fiaauoiieana'a Aulea and 

foraa of the House of Conmona of Canada, of 1943, where It 

la very properly pointed out that the House ahall appoint 

a Cocmlttee of Supply and ffuys and Ueana at every Session 

aa soon as x,ae iuiaress nas cuen agreed to. 

In other words, this House has that business upon 

its program and that issue ic under debate. Thnre was an 

amendment movea Dy tae leauer ci' che opposition [iuc. Joiilffe) 

and a sub-amendment moved oy myself. And, before the 

government Is entitled to proceed any further, before Its 

vote Is decided, It comes In a cowardly manner to this 

House and aaks to Introduce Its budget Into the debate* 

I refer to our own rule 114: 

**The Committee of Supply and of Ways and 
Means are appointed on motion, without 
previous cotlce, at the ooooencement of each 
oesslon, as soon as an audresa has been 
agreed to in answer to the speech of the 
Lieutenant-Governor . " 

I do not happen to be a lawyer, but I can cer- 
tainly Interpret the rules of tae Dominion House and of our 
own House. 

UH. ££i«.vxw h, JOLLUfn (York South): Is It a rule 
or an Interpretation of the rule? 

MB. HKPbURM; It Is rule 114. and I ahall read It 
again, because I icnow that the Hout>e voted altogether oak of 
order In a aesploable attempt to get away from the die- 
ouaslon of its own program. 

This Is Aula 114, and, kr. Speaker, you have said 
many a time that you do not oake the rules but you Interpret 
them. Interpret this one for ma, please: 

'*114. The CoHMittee or supply and of laya and 


- 8i7 - »«7-45 

"Usans are appelated on aotloa, vitlumt 
preTloua notloa, at tlia eoaBenoaBent of 
aaoli daaaion, aa aoon aa an addraaa liaa 
been agreed to in ansver to the speech of 
the Lieuteoant-Oovernor." 

UR, JOLLXFVIt Ur. SpoBker, the wording of the rule, 
which ay frleud haa Just read, aooa not correaponc mtn the 
aording of the motion which has been voted on to-day. The 
BOBbers of tbla group are anxloas to have the fullest dls- 
ouftsion on the debate on the ^ddresa. ka a matter of fact, 
I referred to that Important oonsl deration earlier thla 
afternoon. But, Mr. Speaker, I think the Houae alao will 
remember that last year the Pi'ovlnclal Traaaurer .'ntroduoed 
the budget on, I think, the sixteenth lay of Ucroh. 7rom 
time to time between the sixteenth day of March and tha 
first day of April the Bouse waa In committee to oonalder 
the estimates'. Ve did not consider tnat wa had anough tlaa 
to go into the estimates and consider tham is they should 
have been considered. In fact, I made aone objection to 
taking the estimates aa rapidly as they were taken towarda 
the close of the Session; and we got no aupport whatever 
from my friend und his group. Since that time they have, 
somawhat timidly, emerged. 

Tne uembers of this group voted In favour of the 
motion on the distinct understanding that the Speech froa 
the Throne debate would continue both for this croup and 
for otner groups wno wlsneo to continue the aabata on ihm 
Throne speech. At the aama tlma, we welcoma the bringing 
In of the budget at the earllast possible tlma, for the 
simple reason that we want the t>uagct to receive the fullest 
consideration of thla Houaa. 

with all reapect to the rules, I do not think thla 
Houaa ahould allow Itself to be bound by any rule in this 



«£ V 

- 818 - 3-7-46 

A lltti* vhilA ago, vben we were Informed thnt thla 
procedure wus foilowea In 1943, not a siii^e aemoer of tn« 
X«lberal group raised the allghteat objection, although they 
were here in 1943. 

MR. ▲. BSULflOKR (Preacott): Ur, Speaker, the 
speech of the Hon. aeaber (Ur. Jolliffe) Is altogether oat 
of order. He is talkiog to the speech on the budget; 
•nd we are talking Xbout going into Coinalttee on Supply 
before the ipeech fron the Throne is paused. 

I was perfectly well aware tnat we were out of 
order, but I did not at the tine have before ne the doou- 
ments. 1 aent for then as quickly as I could and now we 
have them before us; and it is altogf>ther out cf ojrder. 

The arguflient has been put forward' that we must 
have the budget as soon as possible. Let me remark this, 
when It wus time and it was in the procedure and in the 
routine proceedings that we should discuss the Speech froa 
the Throne, what did we have? We were brought into 
CoLJBlttee here to consider bills on elections and the lavs 
of elections, and the law as to voters* lists, ana ve dis- 
cussed those, so as to poatpone. It was evidently the idea 
to postpone as far as pousxule the discussion on the 3peeoh 
from the Throne* Ihy was that done, If we were in such 
a hurry to bring in the budget, and the members of the 
gOYernment haa been so keen in seeing that the proper pro- 
cedure was followed in this House, they iliould have 
rushed the discussion on the Speech from the Throne. In- 
stead or that they have brougnt in tneae bills vnicn well 
oould have waited until after the Speech from the Throna; 
but they brought them on on lednesday and Thursday instead 
of the speech rroa the Throne. Why should that have been 
done If the object was to brlag on the budget debate, but 


- 819 - S-7-40 

Mr. belan^«r« 

they should hav« first brought th« Speech fron the Throne 
debate to an end as soon as possible, so as not to have the 
sane trouble that we had last year. If It was so neoesaary 
to give the House plenty of tlaa to dlaouss the estloatea, 
and If It was very Important not to have the aane trouble 
as we had leist year as to estliaates, then why did not the 
government hurry and get the speech from the throne debate 
through as soon as possible? They did not do that, but 
they brought to our attention the Voters* List Bill, the 
Slectlons Act, and so on, and now they co&e before us quite 
wrongly; auo it has been said on this side of the House 
that there should be no techalcallties. Mr. Speaker, It 
is not a technicality. These rules are the result of 
years and years of British purllamentury experience. 

(P&ge 820 follows) 



cci . e^ . ^7.4e 

The rults h«T* b««D d«Tl8«d to d««I vltb abuses that tormmrlj 
took plaea, and thast rules haye grovB upon us. 1 think, 
Itr. Speaker, that «e ahould either dlaeard the rulea or elaa 
follow then, and follow them atrletly, beeauae they are the 
erystalllzed result of eenturies of parllaBsntary ezperlenoe. 
I an not any more Brltlah thaB the Prime Hlniater of thla 
croTlnce. Nevertheless I hold to British Institutions, and 
espeelaliy to these rules of British parliamentary institU' 
tlons. Our Legislatures have ooMe from the Mother of 
Parliaments In Britain* and I hava the greatest admiration 
for the British parliament and its rules « Therefore I 
•ball not seerTo from them, and so far as I can prevent it 
I aha 11 not allow this House to swerve from them, although 
•a a Clatter of fact we are doing It every day on other mat' 
tors . 

I think that the point of order that has teen ralaed 
la well taken. I think that the whole procedure on thla 
queation to-day and the vote that has been taken upon It 
was absolutely out of order « le have first of all the 
rules of our own House and then we heve the rules of the 
House of CcMnmons. le have also the interpretationa of the 
rules given by Beauehesne, Bourinot, Hay and Lawia himself , 
•Bd I think we should ebide by those roles end by the 
prsotloes of parliament espeelaliy In erltlcal tiaaa aueh 
•a thoae through whleh we are paaaing to-day. 

MR. JOLLIFPB: May I ask the hon. member e question* 
•ould he give ua an authoritative opinion aa to what oeeurred 
in this House In 1943 when he was a member of the UoueeT I 
vould like him to tell us about that. 

MR. BKLAMOn: Certainly. If I did let aottethlng 
irregular paaa on that ooeaalon,^ Ji(^ not happen to be aa 
veil versed m the rules. 

a»e<f ©▼erf ^slwx. ©riT 

is dw >cje ,111 

ftt*»:f J-tS 

<l Si\: 

— '" 'f» eew 

an St xo aelin 

Bd tl .«ixo<B0o8 lo eei/c ; 

^ ,0aB9AouB9S. vd oeTis c- - 

a Mi/oxfa ©« aliilrfi^ I bna 

;e ta^tKBlStm lo eeoJtj-oeiq 

•« A'. "'t e^0Iii es 

; ^tm tat^iJjQL .JIM 

:•;.?? ne ' ' - eri. bluot 

i at 
■-iii bluow 
teti9Q cHSDWAJSa .ffll 

"0 JariJ no eeBq iBli/aenii 
cSdlirr Bii bseiev Hew 

C2 " mx ' 5-7-45 

Mr. Belanfltr 

HON. MHiBBRS: Ob, oh. 

MR« BSLANGBI: Bon. saabtrs My laugb, but l«t b« tail 
them that I have before tbe Hcuso qo« a bill to rapaal the 
laglalatlon that was pasaad in 1943 by the OoTernaant of 
will ah X vaa e aupportar. rurtharmora baoauaa I alnnad 
yaatarday* If I agreed to aomathing In 1943 mtaloh vaa 
irregular. It doaa not follow that I as going to ain to- 
day, and if I can pre rent thla Houae froa alnning, now 
that I have a little more ezperlenoa in the rulea, I ahall 
do my utmoat to prerent the Bouae fion reoidivating. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: May I inform the hon. Beaber that on 
March 22, 1943, he voted for a motion of thla kind. 

MR, BBIANGSR: What difference does that aaka? 

MR. J'OLLIFPB: On March 22, 1943, the hon. member and 
other members of hia party voted for the final adoption of 
the Addreaa, and three days earlier the Houae had taken up 
a motion to go into supply. 

MR* BBULMGSH: I have only one thing to add. If the 
hon. member who has juat spoken has ao much respect and 
esteem anQ sonsideration for my stand on any particular 
question that eomes up in thla Houae that he will aoeept 
my pronouncement and maka a new rule aut^ersedinA the nilea 
of the Houae, 1 am quite sacisriod. out 1 have noi mat 

presumption, and if I voted wrongly on that partioular day 
in 1943, that la no reaaon for superseding the rules of 
the Houae now. If the ho&. member conaemna Sby vote in 

1943 he ahould appleud me now for not wanting to duplloata 
mj vote of that day. 

MR. A. A. MaaUOD (BaUvooda):Mr. Speaker, I have no 
desire whatever to prolong the diaouaalon pending the ruliac 
which you have been aaked to give, but I do think that oaa 
or two things should be cleared up. 





CCS - est - 9-7«46 

Mr. IfieLaod 

Whan tha Prorlnolal Treasurer (Mr. Frost) Bade bla ■<>• 
tion to-duy It did seazo to na he aas a little anxious* I aa 

not faxDillar vltb parllaaantary praetloa, at laast not aa 
faalllar as other hon. members of the Houae, but it did aaa« 
Tery atraoge to ma tbat a motion of thla kind should be intro- 
duced before «e had really begun to get Into the main debate 
on the Speech from the Throne. 

Hie thing that Dotners me la thla: Ihioh Is going to 
take precedence oyer ablob after the budget haa baan Intro* 

The situation in the House to-day Is that a motion 
for the adoption of an addraaa to the Honourable tha 
Lleutenant-GoTermor has been moved by a private member 
oatenslbly but It la In reality a Government motion, and 
to that motion an amendment and a subamendment have been 
■ada. The Leader of the Oppoaltlon (ICToJolllffe) In 
moving hia aaendment prefaced it with the remark that ha 
had no confidence In this Govemnent. That la what he aald, 
and therefore it is to be esaumed that the Leader of tha 
Opposition intended that hia amendment to tha motion ahoul* 
constitute an expreaalon of no n- confidence In the Govern- 
aent. la my opinion the Houae ahould have an opportunity 
to vote upon that qaeatlon before It glvea the Goverm&ent 
a blank cheque to proceed with the budget. 

MR. CA33KLMAN: fa are not going to give any blank 
cheque. Don*t worry about that. 

MR. HaoLSOD: Just a minute. I do not think tha 
Leader of the Oppoaltlon will dissent from thia» that tha 
oiroumstanoas that azlat In the Bouae to-day arc a little 
different from those obtaining In 1043. I am not prerared 
to aay that what existed In 1943 wes an Improvement orer 
whet we have to-day. That la a question that other paopla 


tabti*taie ns 

.^.f&R ■ -atmrr 



CC4 - 623 - 3-7-46 

Mr. MftoUod 

Will haT« to argti*. But I do say this, that thara ara 
52 manbars of this Laglslatura who sit In opposition to-day 
and 36 i&ambars who alt on tha OoTarxosant b«nohaa» and whan 
an unusual dapartura of thla kind la baln^ aada and a motion 
of thla natura put forward I think It would hare baan only 
oourtasy for tha OoTarnnant to hara consultad tha Laadar of 
tha Opposition and tha laadar of tha nazt largest group If It 
was tha GoTernznant 'a daslra to faollitata the bualnass of tha 
Laglslatura. So far as I know, that was not dona; parhapa 
it was. 

MR. HSPBUBN (llgln); Ho, it waa not. 

UR. llaoLEQD: If the Laadar of the Oppoaltlon had prior 
notloa of thla motion and was aatlsfied that the Governiaant in 
making it waa acting in good faith, it would haTe been wall 
that wa should hare known about that. Uy own vote against tha 
motion was oast in good faith. I have no desire whatever to 
obstruct or prevent orderly procedure with the business of tha 
House, but I do say that in view of the circumstances , in Tlaw 
of the fact that aoBAthing approximating a death aantenca haa 
been pronounced on the GoTernment, we should first decide 
whether that sentence la going to ba executed oefore we pro- 
ceed with the discussion of the budget. 

UR. HEPBURN (llgln): May I say In reply to my hon. 
friend that so far as I am concerned, as laadar of thla group 
I was not consulted at all In regard to thla unpraoadantad 
departure on the part of the Oowernment. 

MR. JOLLIFFI: I think It la only fair to say that I 
received no notice whatever of tha motion that haa bean intro- 
duced this afternoon, although tha Provincial Treaaurar (Mr. 
Proat) did remark to ma that ha thought it would ba a good 
thing if a way could be found under the rulaa to gat tha 
astimataa considered earlier in tha session. I do not think 

xd ©d t'j a 

, Jusrtitis- 


06 t ■* .noieE? 

<^5 fc»T9, aofsflriJee 

- 884 - 9>7-46 


h« «111 mind my ■aying that. B« knovs what ay Tle«a ar« 
already about tbla. 

UR. IIXPBURN (llgln):. 2a tbia Tory-CCF. oollaboratloa? 

MR. JOLLIPFS: No, It la not. Tha queatlon nov bafora 
tba House raised oy tne hon. aeabar for Elgin la one of order. 
He rellea upon the rulea from which the hon. Baabar for 
Presoott says «e have no ri?ht to depart. It la not for ■• 
to laterprot the rules out 1 uo vish to refer to the Votes and 
Proceedings of this Houae Ixi 1943, at pages 180, 189 and 163. 

On Pr1<i4v, ifaroh 19th» It was on motion of Mr. Gordon, 

aaeondad by ilr. Conant: 

'Ordered, That this Hous« 
alll to~day resolv^i itself Into 
the Comalttee of Supply,* 

Later, on page 129: 

*llr. Conant delivered to 
lir» Speaker a fflassage from the 
Lieutenant- Oovernor» signed by 
himself j and the said message 
waa read by llr» Speaker* and ia 
as follows:" 

That was the message transmitting the estimates. I quote 

further from the same page: 

*The Order of the Day for 
the House to resolve itself into the 
Comaiittee of Supply baring baen read, 

^Mf. Gordon moved, 

*That Mr. Speaker do now leave 
the Chair and that the Houae reaolva 
Itaalf into the Commlttea of Supply. 

"And a Debate having ensued, it 
was, oa the motion of Mr. Maeaulay, 

"Ordered, That the Debate be 

That laa on Friday, March 19. 1943 

Subsequently on Monuay, Maroh 88, 1943, aa recorded 

at page 153 of the Totea and Proceedings, thla ia what 


w ed 




CC6 - 6»» - »-7-46 


*TIm Order of tba Day for 
r«8UBlng the Adjourned Debate on tha 
•■•ndxiant to tba aaandBant to the 
■otlon for tba consideration of the 
Speecb of the Uonourobla the Lieutenant' 
OoTernor at the opening of the 3essloB, 
having been read, 

*The Debate «aa reauBed,and, 
after aome time, the aoendmBnt to the 
•Bendaent, — ■" 

▼oted on, and the dlvlsionllat appeara on that aaae page 

of the Yotes and Proceeding. That la the precedent which 

I aubfflit to Your Honour for the oourae pursued here to-day. 

Finally I want to say this to my hon. friend the 
member for Bellwoods. I do not care whether the present 
Prime Minister or the member for Bellwoods or the member for 
Slgin Is the leader of the Government. In any event the 
Houae baa to consider the budget and vote supply within 
the near future. It may be that other leaders would take 
a different course In presenting that budget to the House, 
but nevertheless the fact reaaina that the financial yeqr 
enda on March 31 and the voting of aupply eannot be put off 

On the point of order I aubmit that there ia a precedent, 
and I think a sensible one, and I am glad that our frlenda to ay 
left were senalbla enough in 1943 to take the course which «•* 
neceaaary at that time. 

BON. GKORGB A. CRBW (Prime Minlater): Mr. Speaker, the 
hon. member for JSlgln (Mr. Hepburn), with a return to «hftt 
Bany ua recall aa bia concept of parliamentary fitneaa, has 
used this afternoon the very type of abusive adjective whieh 
did bring the debatli.g xevel of thia Legielature oown to a 
very low point during the time he waa Premier of this pro- 
vince. But at least this much can be aaid for the argu- 
ment that baa been made so far. In 1943 he was not the 
Premier of Ontario at the time that thia course waa followed. 






da. , Often 


<rawolIcl letsasi^ 

CC7 - 626 - 3-7-45 

Kr. Drew 

and presumably that hat aonathlng to do with the weight of 
the argument that he la not bound by an earlier oourae. 
Perhaps it could be argued that he had Tery little control 
oyer his party at that time as they got rid of him, even 
from the cabinet, at that time. But the fact Is that the 
first occasion on which this rrocedure was followed, this 
proceGure toat -a terms C9wardj.y and deapicaoie and other 
things thut no one with an orderly mind could possibly 
r Imagine -- 

m. HSPBURl! (Elgin): Oh, no, of course not. 

Iffl* DREW: Really, he gets funnier every day. The fact 
la that thl3 la not the first tlma thla procedure has been fol- 
lowed. Let no refer to the Votes and Proceedings of 1942, 
to the record of llareh 31st, at page 66, where I find this: 

"On motion of Ur. Hepburn 
(Elgin), seconded by Mr, Nixon (Brant) --" 

the member now sitting to his right, in the sasie lovable posi- 
tion he then occupied: 

"It was ordered that this 
House will, on Thursday next, resolve 
Itself Into the Committee of 3upply.* 

And Just to make the record complete, the very next paragraph 


*0n motion of Hr. Hepburn 
(Elgin), seconded by Ur. Nixon 

"It was ordered that this 
Bouse will, on Thursday next, reaolve 
Itself Into the Committee of Ways and 

Let us go a little further lit© the record of that s 
day, Harch 31. On page 68 of the Vetes and Prooeedi 
that day I find this: 

•The Order of the Day for reaming 
the Adjourned Debate on the Motion fer 
eonalderatlon of the Speech ef The Hon- 
ourable the Lieutenant- Gcrernor at the 
opening of the Session, having been read. 



CCe - ^^ »-7-46 

Mr. Dr«« 

"The Debate vas rasvuMd and, 
after aema tlaa, It vaa an tha Botlon 
af Mr* Caapar, 

" Order » That the Dabate ba fur- 
ther adjouroad until ta-aarrav.* 

So this nan who loosely describes tha oourse being 
followed by the Gorernmant to-day as despicable, oovardly and 
unprecedented, followed the rory sum eoursa himself In 1948 
vhaa ha was Preaxer of tha provinoa. 

MR. HEPBURN (ngln); But there la this dlstlnetloa. 
That was done on ttaroh 31st, while the OoTemment *s motion 
to-day IS made on March ?th. They are asking us now on 
March 7th to do something that Is contrary to the rulea of 
the House in order to facilitate the presentation of the 
budget. If the aama course was taken in 1942 It must hsTa 
been done by the unanimous conaant of ull partlaa. It that 
time there were not four different groups in this La'gislatura . 

The situation to-day Is that we have before ua a 
motion for an Address to which an amendment has been moTe4 
and a subamendment, and ao far as the C.C.F. leader la con- 
cerned he has said that ha has no oonfldanoe In the Oorern- 
■ant. Belther have I. Ajad the two parties which we lead 
oonatituta a majority in this House. Until such tlma as 
the fate of the GoTornmant has been decided upon by Totlng 
on the subsjaandDant and the amendment on the motion for an 
Addraaa I do not think we oan properly give a blank chaqua to 
thia Admlnlatratlcn. 

The point of order upon whleh you are being aakad to 
rule, Mr. Speaker, la whether thla whole poaltlon taken by 
the CoTernmant la in ordar or not. 

I know, of oourae, that by unanlmoua conaant of tha 

Bouae we may dlaragard any of ita rulea, but before I ait 

down I ahould like to quote Rule 114 of the Rulea of this 

Houaa, ParliaMtntary Procedure in Ontario, by Alex. C. Lewla, 

-no 3 

& s »tb &A 

COT • e«8 - »-7-45 


01«rlc of th« L«gl8latlTo AsscBbly of Ontario, and In doln^ 

80 lat ■• point out that tba rula oonflraa tha praetioa 

in tba Bouaa of CMuiona at Ottawa as oatabllshod bj 

Baauobaana'a ParllamantarT Bulaa and Foraa for tba 

aanlor parllaaant of Canada. Rula 114 raada: 

•Tha CeouKlttaa of 3upply 
and of ffaya and Haana ara appointad 
on Botlon, althout prarioua notiea, 
at tha oaHBanoaaant of aaah Saaalon, 
aa Boon aa an uddrasa haa baan agraad 
to in ansaar tc taa spaaeh of tba 

It is upon that point Mr Spaakar. that I would aak 
you to gire your ruling. 

MR. BBUNGBR: Sven In 194£ and 1943 thla House did 
not dapart from the well-lcnnrK nila juat cltad beoauaa tbara 
was no aivlslon of tbe menoera upon n motlun, but unanlmoua 
oonaant «aa given to suspend tbe rula. If you introduce a 

motion that is contrnry to the rales of tbe House the only 
way In which it can Da carried is by unanimous consent. In 
the case cited fron 1943 there was unanimoua oonaant. There 
vaa no dlvlalon, no oppoaltloo, and no point of ordar ralaad 
aa to the rula. So what happened in 1943 cannot be taken 
aa a precedent to be followed to-day baoause there haa baan 
paralatant opposition to tha presentation of thla motion. 

(Pa«o 689 folloaa) 


- 819 - 


■R. ROBSBT D. TUOBNBBBBT (BaoUtoo Centrt): Mr. 8peax«r, 

It l8 my Interpretation of th« rulet that tb« rules are laid down 
for the Legislature, and not the Legislature for the rules. 

Iffi. BllJLNQSfi: kiulte rigat. 

HB. THOKNBSRBY: But they should not be so Inflexible as 
not to ooTsr such exigencies. We had a situation yesterday ehere 
the House adjourned at 5:30. During the last Session we sat froa 
one o'clock In the afternoon until four o'clock in the Bornlng. I 
think we might obviate a great deal of the difficulty if we used 
up that extra half hour in dealing with other matters connected 
with the business of the House. 

MR. DREW: That is ay idea, exactly. 

MR. THORNEBRBT: 1 think the rules are not so Inflexible 
as not to cover a situation of this kind. 

UR. BBLAHOSR: There was no unanimous ecnsent. 

MR. SPSAKXB: Hon. members, may I say that as I under- 
stand this natter there will be no attempt, as far as the Speaker 
Is concerned, to shut off resuming the debate on the speech from 
the Throne. 

May I refer the hon. members to Section 114 of the Rxilet, 

which reads as follows: 

"The Comoitteesof Supply and of Wayt and Means are 
appointed on motion, without previous notice, at 
the oomnencement of each sasslon, as soon as aa 
address has been agreed to In answar to the Speeeh 
of the Lieutenant Governor.* 

You have precedence for thla, In 1943, referred to hera 
to-day. The House Is supreme. I am the Tdoa of the Housa. Tha 
House, without recorded division, passed a motion of Supply. There 
was a division on Ways and Means, carried by a majority, and what- 
ever the Housa does. In my opinion, Is correct, it is not my 
voice, but the vcdLoa of the Housa. i think the motion is in order. 

MB. MITCHELL F. HSraURH (Slgin): Mr. Speaker, we wUl 
have to appeal frcn your ruling. Call in the maM>ara. It la 

ess - 

mroi> ijtij 

saw 0*?' 



,1 ,©Di:cv 

- 890 - 



UR. BBULNGIR: It la a ihamsful thin« for tha Corern- 
oant to stand by that. 

UR. SPi:ULKZR: Call In the monbara. 

The hon. laembar for Elgin (Ur. Hepburn) haa appealed 
the ruling of the Chair. The queatlon la. Shall the ruling 
be sustained? Those in I'avour please rise. 

The House divided on an appeal fron the Speaker*a rul' 
Ing, which was sustained by the following Tote: 

Ur. Drew 

l£r. Doucett 

Ur. Challlea 

Ur. Blackwell 

Ur. Frost 

Ur. Dunbar 

Ur. Vivian 

Ur, Thompson 

Ur. Doley 

Ur. Porter 

Ur. Acres 

Ur. Uurphy 

]Sr. Pe:/nolda 

Ur. uepoum (Prince Edward -Lennox) 

Uro fioberts 

Ur. Uurdoch 

Ur, Duckworth 

Ur, Amott 

Ur. Dent 

Ur* Downer 

Ur. H. ▲. Stewart (Xia«iton) 

Ur. Scott 

Mr. Hepbtim 

Ur, Nixon 

ur. Oliver 

Ur, Laiirler 

Ur . Gordon 

Ur, Patteraon 

Ur. Ulller 

ur. Kelly 

Ur, Belanger 

ur. Uurray 

Ur. UoEwlng 

Ur, Begin 

Ur. Dioksoa 

Ur, Duff 

Ur. UaoalUlTray 

Mr. MacLeod 

Ur. Salaberg 

Ur, Alles 

Ur, iiancocJc 

Ur, ffiUiaflw 



- 831 - 3-7-45. 

Tl AS H A y 3 

Mr. Taylor (Huron) 

Mr. Patrlok 

Mr. Goodf«llow 

Mr. Hall 

Mr. Honna 

Mr. Martin 

Mr. McDonald 

Mr. Johnaton 

Mr. MoPhae 

Mr. Uclntyra 

Mr. Robaon 

Mr. Jolliffa 

Mr. Bennett 

Mr. Loavena 

Mr. Lockhart 

Mlaa Macphall 

Mr. Anderson 

Mr. Millard 

Mr. Caaaeloan 

Mr. Harray 

Mr. Steel 

Mr. Taylor (Temlsiuuain£) 

Mr. Kehoe 

Mr. Gnuamatt 

Mr. Denniaon 

Mr. Strange 

Mr. Connor 

Mr. Mitchell 

Mr. Warren 

Mr. Robertaon 

Mr. Robinaon (Port Arthur) 

:S8 - 

8 A g Y 

isnmjH . lil 






i A 




iJ XJCl ). 1.J.->1 










LW. -^wvV 



no a 3- '10 


r g JL S MAYS 

Ur* Drovn 

ICr. Thomborry 

Mr. Carl In 

Mr. Cook 

Kr. Blgga 

Kr. Overall 

llr« Docker 

Ur. Smith 

TEAS: 59, NAYS: 21, 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prline lilnlster] : Order No. 23. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The twenty-third Order. Resuming 
the adjourned debate on the notion for the second reading of 
Bill Ho. 41, "The Securities* Act, 1945'«, Mr. Blackw»ll. 

HON. LESLIE B. BLACKWEIL (Attorney General): Ur. Speaker 
and hon. members,, in resuming the adjourned debate on aeeood 
reading of the Securities » Act of 1945, I will remind the hon. 
members that at the adjournment of that debate I had ooapletad 
Indicating to the House the extent to iftlch this bill loplement- 
ed or varied or failed to follow the reoonaendatlon contained 
in the report of the Royal Conmi salon on llinlng. 

Having cone to that point, I will now proceed to indicate 
to the Houaa and discuss the limited number of pxlnoiplea that 
have bean included In the bill, but which were not raoooMndad ty 
the report. They are few in number, and quite siapla. 

The first of theaa ia that under the existing regula- 
tions under the present Securities* Act there is contaiaed a 
prohibition directed agalnat making any referenoa in a circular 
issued in oomeotion with a seourity, that application will ba 





y , » ri J 

jtUB 0Af I 

'oa e. 


.l«rr «rf;f- 

-(*ffi *a 

■ > r-s 

I ' r* t^ r 

. ess - 


■ftA«, or that cuoh • aeeurlty vill b« llst«d on th* Stock SZ- 
changt. The faot of th* matter la that the InTeatlnc publie 
attaoh eonalderiible ioportanea to the queition of whether or 
not a aacurity will be listed on the Exchange, the reaaon 
being obTloualj that If the security la unllated Ita market 
Talue 18 uncertain, and no ready market la arallable for that 

under these circumstances, the proposed bill contains 
the proTlalon that a reference to listing may be made in a 
circular or a prospeotua, provided that the approval of the 
Cominlsslon Is obtained. It la a siatter, possibly, to determine 
by the Coomlsalon aa to ihether or not a particular security haa 
those qualifications which will enable the security to become 
listed. It Is also possible to obtain frcm the eocpany Issuing 
the security, or the caapany which has In the past issued the 
security, undertaking or agreeing that at the conclusion of the 
listing of the security an application will, In fact, be made. 
With thaae aafUguarda, and all these clroumstanoea, it is bellerat 
to be a salutary thing that the public are told whether or not 
a security will be Hated. 

Another simple principle Incorporated in this bill is a 
provision prohibiting any peraon from holding hlmaelT or re- 
presenting hlmaalf to be a peraon entitled to trade in securltlea 
In the province of Ontario. 

The purposa of that provlalon Is rather simple and obvlooa; 
it la to enable the CoooiissloB to "nip in the bud" a peraon who 
attaapta to engaga, or takes any atep In the direction of angaglng, 
or holda himself out aa being entitled to engaca, in the bualnaaa 
of dealing in aaouritiea idien he la not. 

Another provision, - and thla one ia of acne importance, - 
la this: thoaa who have carefully examined the bill will hatm 
noted there that a system of Stock Sxohanga audita la aat up, of 


aup enoiit 

qTs "V ^ 

f &90' : 81 

t, - ^. , „ 

- 884 - 3-7-49. 

Ur. BlAckvtll. 

two types, the regular audit and a "apot** audit, and It 1» 
provided, In the case of non-nai^ar brokefa, In this bill, 
that thare will be Bora than the regular periodlo audits nada, 
according to the provisions of the lot, but It will enabla tba 
Commission, as well, to set up for this provlnoa "spot" audits 
on the eaoa prlnelpla as the "apot" audits on the Ezobanga. 

Now I come to the final inclusion in princlpla, whleb 
is of soQS ioportance. Under the present Statute there is a 
declaration of a number of natters constituting fraud. Those 
provisions have always been, to put them at their highest lerel, 
of dubious constitutional ri^t. As a matter of fact, there is 
a decision in the Alberta ssourlties* Act which provides that a 
declaration by the Aot of what constitutes fraud is outside the 
legislative competence of a province, and for that reason care 
has been taken in the drafting of this bill to provide that tha 
acts themselTos are declared to be offences which are within 
the competence of the province, and no effort has bean Bade to 
declare them to be fraud, which is the subject of criminal lav, 
and thus within the exeluslTe competence of the Parliacent of 
Canada. I felt I should jiake that explanation, bo cause those 
of you who have coiqpared the two Acts will find the disappearance 
of those sections which declare a substantial number of acts to 
be fraud. 

Nov, that brings me to the end of the extent to which this 
bill iaplemants the report and some other itama of prinolplas 
irtiich are included therein. 

I feel at this point I should say this to the hon. saabers 
of tha Legislature : I Mida Bsntion of the fact, earlier in ay 
discussion on this bill, that in tha Attomay General *s Departasnt 
occasion was created for conaitteea rapresanting represent at iwa 
bodies of those people affected by this Aot to BSlca rajra sent at Ions 

- *58 - 


-9<T ieLu'^,9-^ 



- 835 - 5-7-45. 

I aT«n mnt so ftjr M to pay tribute to the aeelatnoe and the 
cooperation that thoae different bodlea had made aTallable to 
the GoTernment. 

I should nov Indicate to the llouae a limited number of 
matters dealt with by this bill, upon which It would be Im- 
proper for me to leave the Impression with the Houae that they 
are nocesaarlly the subject of entire agreement on the part of 
all people who have made representations. 

The first of these I would like to deal with la the 
question of escrow. I made reference to escrow when I spoke 
previously on the bill, and again I wish to repeat to the House 
that «• have, in the Comml sal on ' s report, a specific reeoomenda- 
tlon to abandon escrowlng. I find, however, that there la not 
one representative organization which has made representatlona 
to na but feels that it would be a fatal natter to abandon 
escrowlng or vendors' shares on uining properties laai are to 
be developed. 

That being the case, aa the responsible Ulnlster of tta* 
Crown in this province I am not prepared to recommend that the 
reaponalblllty should be taken of removing those escrowlng pro- 
visions which are there to ensure that the treaaurlea of ooopan- 
les be adequately financed for their objects and are there to 
prevent masaes of ahares Issued for propertlea and other oon- 
aiderations being thrown on the market and coming Into conpetl- 
tloa with the shares being sold for financing purpoaes. Unleaa 
I ean see my way clear to be assured that the other previa lona 
of tba let would, in themselwea, be adequate to anaara ttaa ade- 
quate financing of mining propertlea, I am not prepared ta ra- 
eamnend the abandonment of eaorowin^. I feal I should make that 
statemont and x,hB reasons therefore abundantly clear to this 

'.e 9B< 

? trtwp nsve T 

3X) ai&jjjun 

- 836 - 8-7-49. 

Ut, Blaokvsll. 

Tbam ar« a nuabor of people who bellore that it might 
be a benefit, but I miat aay to thia Houae that there la not 
one repreeentatiTe body vho ballaTea that that ia ao. 

Another objection which haa been raised to this Aot, 
and to which I feel I should make rsferoioe, (because, no 
doubt, representations may have been made to aoise of the hon» 
■anbers of this Houae about It,) and that la the provisioo con- 
tained in the Act dealing with two thinga, > the provision is 
the same, and the principle is the same, and that is thlar the 
civil remedy that la conferred upon puroha-sers of securities 
by tho failure to do two thinga. - in the ease of a prlaary 
distribution of seouxities txon tne treasury of the cocq;>asy, if 
there is failure to deliTer a prospeetus, than the purchaser 
of shares, within a period of one year, if he is still the holder 
of those shares, haa an automatic right to have recision or iiiat 
contract. The other to which I refer, (and It is the same in 
principle,) la the queation of a person who is in the brokerage 
business, understood by the public, generally, to be an agent, 
entering into a particular traaaactlon with iBaBt>er8 of the 
public. By that I alB^ly mean a situation where membera of the 
public may well feel that they are employing a broker for tha 
uaual brokerage coBBiaaion, only to hava it happen, without their 
knowledge, that they are aold stock that the broker ow&a. 

(Pa^ No. 836 followa.) 

■nad B 0d 

■^' :• <■ o 


6 1 eieiia 


- eav - 8-7-45. 

^ )tr, BleckwBii. 

Nov, this It not ft new prlnolpl* thftt 1« ecntaln«4 la 
th« koX, but tb« In, for many yeara, lit civil mattara, haa 
baan wall-eitabllahad, and that lav la thla: that If a paraon 
la anployad aa a brokar, and he sella to a oanbar of tha public 
hla o«i atock, thara la no atatuta of llnitatlona applied ae 
long aftarvarda aa it aay ba that that aaabar of tha publla 
find! that ha has baan aold the brokar 'a own atock^ ha haa, la 
law, a right to raolalon AJLl we have dona la Incorporated 
that well-eatabliahad prlnclpla of cItU law Into tha Aot aa 

one of the raqulraoanta In carrying on the bualnaaa of being a 

to tha 
broker, and, aa tha altuatlon la alnllar delivery of a pro- 
ape ctua, the renedy Is preoiaaly the sama, but the civil right 
of action la modified under the lat, and the broker ouat ba la 
a poaitlon to discharge the onus of having diaoloaed that ha 
vaa a principal. 

Another principle about which there la oonaiderabla 
difference of opinion la the principle dealing with the prohibi- 
tion of brokara telephoning to membera of the public. I should 
inform the House that thia la not a new principle introduoad 
into the bin by thla Govemmant. The principle, Initially, 
found ita plaoa in the British Companies* Aot. 

Following that, the principle was adopted in tha 
Companies* Act of Canada, and from thera It found ita way Into 
the ragulationa xuidar the preaent Saourltlea* Act, ao it is aot 

Prohibltloa, aa oontalnad in the ragulationa, waa abao- 
luta, and by "absolute* 1 maaa that under ao olreinataneaa vaa 
a parscD in the brokerage bualneaa permitted to talephone, an- 
laaa the peraon telephoned waa a buaineas aoqualntanca or sea*- 
one with whom tha broker had baaa in tha habit of tranaaotlag 
bualneaa. On reviewing that, it vma fait that that vaa unduly 


'or?;* St ■ 
■ a .sii -, 



- 834: - 9-7-45. 

lir. BUckMll. 

restricted, and It waa fait that In the orovltlona of thla Aot, 
witn wnica id.o oroJurs are required to oom^lj, there should ha 
a relaxation, and that vhera, as a rssxilt of material properlj 
Issued by the broksrs under this Act they hare enquiries, anl 
a aeobar of the public is prepared to invite them to tha 
telephone, It remains unreasonahle and an >indue restriction of 
their rl'^t to transact l>uslness if they are unable to do so 
under those oiroujnstsneea.. 

Z want to %o a little Torther, \t I mmj, froB just a 
personal point of vlev. This is a type of restriction that on 
the principle, I K'ist say, I disllk«i. I Just feel a natural 
resistance to the idea that one of the usual agencies of carry- 
ing on business, namely, the telephone, may not be freely aaA 
conQ>letely used, but, on the other hand, we have had, and it 
is oonaon public hnowledge. certain people In the financial 
business use batteries of telephones to "drum up" business with 
this disadvantage, that the representations and stories they 
deliver to the members of the public, to make them part with 
their cash for dubious seouritles, without any public record, 
are incapable of later proof, and that is the only excuse that 
I know for the prohibition of the telephone. - the fact that 
there is no way of estaciisiimg evidence if it is perantted 
under these circumstances. 

I hare here, - and I will indicate to the Legislature, 
without giving t.'ie naosa, Uhloh 1 do not feel I should do. - 
but I have a record of telephone caUa frcm a list of twenty- 
nine investment fima operating in the City of Toronto during 
the month of January, 1945. It is divided into Ontario, two 
other provinces, and the U&lted States, and the number of sale*- 
■en that made the calls. Ontario comes first, the other 
provinoes second, end the United States third. And then, the 





- M'i - 5.7^5. 

number of saleiotn that oada tba oalla, hare thay ara: 

Oatarlo, 500; other proTlncaa, 214; UnitaA Statea, 47; 
alz aalaaatn. 

66, Ontario; 46, other provlnoaa; 85, United Statea; 
by two salai 

5S In Ontario; 36 In other proTlnoea; 70, United statea; 
by principal. 

306, Ontario; 26, other proTlncea; S44, United statea; 
by eight aaleaaan* 

462, Ontario; lOS, other provinoea; 5, United Statea* 
by thirteen salesmen 

81, Ontario; 80, other provinces; 1^1, United ctatea; 
by one aalei 

liR. HARRY C. miCIT (Brant i : .ay I ask the hon-, 
Minister (WCo iiiacictroli; , in thla cocixectlon voulii tneae oalla 
be Illegal under the new bill? Theae calls might have been to 
frlenda, nay thev not? 

UR. 2i..^JQSLL: I ea quite sure, having regard to the 
nature of the buslnesa and the size of "She bualnaaa and the 
nxuaber of calla, If the hon, member far Brant will ezerolae hla \ 
good judgment he may satlafy himself aa to whether they were to 
frlenda or buslneaa aaaoclatea or whether they were calla to the 
general publlo. 

The answer to the other queatlon la that at the aonsnt, 
under the preaent leglalatlon of this province, the calls made 
In the province of Ontario would be Illegal now without the Act 
If made to peraona other than bualnosa acquaintances or a per- 
aon with whom the broker had an eatabllsbad relationship. 

KR. fflLLIAU J. GRUUUETT (Coohrane South): I was wonder- 
ing If all theae oalla were to reaidences, about wbioh the Act 
aaya: "shall not telephone froD within Ontario to any realdence**. 
Are you referring to calla to resldenoaa? 

KR. BLACKISLL: Tea, theae are calla to resldenoaa. 

&8t. EDWARD B. J0LLII7I (Leader of the Oppoaition): Thay 
do not incluae offlcea? 


; < 

; ae' 

ei r 

l^BJS &. 

agoXXi 9d 


.qin- " ff^Jcv' 

B ,B9OXX0f)ie&c yw s 

- 840 - 3-7-45. 

MR. BLiCnriLLt No, no. 

I do aot tUnic, kr. Speaker, that I will take the tlai 
of the Legl8latuz« In readlns the whole Hat of tirenty-nine that 
I have hare that are elaaalfled In thla fashion. I have rmmM 
sufflolant to aay they are representa'-.^Te of the vo^ie llat« 

There la one further principle of the Aot it>out Kileli 
there la a cpnBlderable dlffererce of oT.ltiiun, tc which I ahoulA 
refer, and t.^At la the prohiDitwoa Cv>ui-«ia64 m Seotlon 15 of 
the Bin, which requlrea on« year 'a .'9.ildenoe in the provlnoe 
of Ontario before a peraon la f'll.^iblc for re-let rat Ion aa a 
broker or aaleaaan. The reaaon, no dcubt., that that reatrlotlon 
waa reooouMnded by mining iien «mi upon repreaentatlona nade to 
that oooualaalon of the fact that brokers and aaleamen and others 
from other juriadlotlona that were Axcluded by the security laws 
of theae Jurisdictions, or had good reasons for leaving thoae 
Jurisdictions, were coming to the province of Ontario In large 
nufflbera because there was an opportunity to enter a nice Taoket*. 

I want to aay to the Leglalature now that I, myself, am 
very dubious aa to the propriety of that provision, ani I will 
be very Interested In the vlewa of the other hon. members. It 
doea appear to wm that that provlaloA may bring back an enga^oc 
in bualneas In thla province of people with aone aubatanoe w2io 
can make aome contribution to the province, and who oay, to tha 
benefit of the provlnoe, brlnp; substantial sums here for Inveat- 
oent, but I am molined to coae no the conclusion that the 
Commission does, on considering appllcationa for regie t rat ion, 
adopt the view freely thet where It was unable to get sufficient 
information with regard to someone ooaing mio Ontario, mis 
ml^t be a ground for refuaal of registration, and it would 
leave it opam to the Cooalasion to register those people aha 
obviously shoxaa t>e registered, but who would be precluded 
by this rule which I am inclined to think is unduly restricted* 


- 841 - 


I would 10«¥B XhOM% points with the Ltgitlator*. I 
thought I should mmkm spsolal rafarflnca. bao«u«« they ar« 
largely points on which thar* is sumo dxrrereno« of opinion 
under this bill. 

Ur. Speaker, so thnt tha hon. aeoibera of this Legis- 
lature will not be under the liapresiica that this bill aooon- 
plishes more than It is intended to, ir const Itutionally can 
do, I ahould I- -w sake another raferene* to the faot that this 
Act is designed to be adoitis'^ered m hswoLarx"/ with the proTls- 
Ions of tha Criminal Code lavs stated that it is beyond 

the legislative province of this province to enaot criminal 
legislation, and, therefore, to the extent that criofss proper 
are perpetrated in relation to security- deals, the sec*irlties' 
Conimission of the proTince of Cntario must olso rely on the 
provisions of tba Criminal Code. They, therefore, should be 
considered aide by aide with this bill, and by reference the 
following sections of the Criminal Code are applicable. If 
the hon. members care to note them for reference, they ara 
Section 404, which deals with false pretenses, and the general 
Section 406 (2), which deals vlth false advertising, and 
Section 407 (2), which deala with a false statement in writ- 
ing, Section 414, which deals with false prospectuses, Section 
444, McxcL. aeais with the same aaterlal as 414, but deala 
with it from the conspiracy point of view. Those are tha 
sections of tha Code which are comnlimentary, or to which this 
Bill xs oomplimen&ary. 

Ur. Speaker, I feel that in order that the understani- 
ing of this Legisla ture of thla blU. should be complete I Miould 
make some raferanca to the practices cf the Securities* rn— 1t- 
sion. In doing so, I do not propose to undertaka a long review 
since the beginning of the Act. I feel it would be quite 



adequat* if T mantlon the praasnt adalniatrBtion. T wotil4 
therefore fflaice t&is rersrenoe to tne practioe: on ttxe regit- 
tratian af bratcara and aalaanan. applioatlooa bara baan f' 
Tiaed in form in an Interim whereby thay are reoulred to be 
aworu iQsteaa of Juat ai^oad. Oa oanaidaring afpiicanta thara 
is naw obtained ttaa fullaat report, a t>uD k Bradatraat report, 
enquiry fro-n other luriadletions, and where doi*-t Atm remains 
an axaainatioo by an orriclal of tha Commisaion or the appli- 

On ttaa quaatioa of InTeatigatloRa, the praaent nractloa 
has been adopted, to ti% in scofomlty with what this bill pro- 
paaaa, and, accordingly, twa forms of investlgatian are being 
fallowad, > that ia, investigations of a ooaplaint by a saaabar 
af the public In refereuoa to a trade in aaouritiee of which 
that member ccmplainad. That type of ocmplaint ia now being 
dealt with on the basis of a sworn complaint by that paraon. 
That is roTlewad by the Crovn Attorney in tha district in which 
that person reaidas. If the evidence is readily arailabla, 
thara ia no necessity of tha paapla having to ooaa ta tha Com- 
mission in Toronto* If tha matter indicataa the probability of 
aa offence, and further evidence is required, it is sent to tha 
Taonissian far ioTestigation, and if, in the judgment of tha 
Cooaiaaian, an inrastigation is required, an order ia made in 
whioh two things are done; some one individual is nada raapen-' 
aible for the investigation, and tha acape af the inveatigatiaa 
%a be made ia determined in the order* 

The second farm of inveatigatian which thia bill can- 
templatea is an inveatigatian, generally, with relation to 
■atarial statements and conduct, generally, which are true 
statements filed, adverti a amenta made, or other informatiao that 
cemea te the Ccamiaaiau. There, again, the aama principle ia 
followed that before an investigation ia ordered there should 





UB il*iAffl 

oi eoic«o 

- 848 - 


b« aooe r«asonftbl« Indication of tht probabllltj of en off«no«. 

At this point I should remind the Legleleture that under 
oar eystea of Jurisprudence an inresitlgetlon Is an eztraordlnar/ 
remedy, and, consequently, should nerer be employed except for 
the limited purpose that the Act permits. 

(Page No. 644 ;ollow8} 



- 844 - »-7-4& 

Mr. Blaok««ll. 

It should never be enployad to enable one Bember of tha 
publio to obtain a free examination for alacovery Into a 
natter of dlaagreeaent alth another aasber of the public, 
where there Is no poaalblllty In that transaction of aa 
udvunoe iu the natter of trade i^ecuritlea. 

I also mentioned that eonalderatlon had beaa 
glraii to a reoonstltutlon of the Dapurtaent. I might say 
that to adalnlater the proposed Act, the Coonlaslon vlll 
require not a much greater t>taff, but It «lli require a 
more substantial staff to do a Job than It has possessed 
for some tlma. le will require the Comal osl oner, the 
Aegis trar under the Commissi oner, and the Commission It- 
self to be departmentalized, aa at the present time it la 
departmentalized on the matter of aealing with applications 
and records. it has to have an audit Depurtnent, and it 
has to have an investlgutiog jjepartmvnt; and each of theue 
departoenta is a sub-department of that eooBilsslon, and the 
people mu:^t be subject to a clear change of responsibility 
to the department. 

I might also say that at the present time there are 
three public servants of the Province under the government's 
undertaking to those In tne services tnai they will resumn 
their functions with the eonalsslon on their return back 
to the service. In sedition to that, and including thosa, 
the CooBlsalon neeus at the moment. In my view, in order 
to do an effective Job under this Act, an audltional In- 
vestigator, two junior solicitors, three auditors, and about 
three more persons in the )»ay of clerical help. 

Now, In order to sea that picture, for the very 
brief time during which I have been acting Jocurltlea C( 
Issloner In the Province, which Is only from November 7th 






f^ao^ — 

- 84B - 3-7-4© 

Ur. BUokv*!! 

last, I would like to give to the Hon. aeabere en in- 
dication of the bUBlneea that comes before that ComiiseiOB. 
Tiiat Ifl, In the brief period from Noveaber 7th to /ebruary 
£Iet this year there were received the total of applios- 
tlons for salesmen one hundred and sixty-four. The dis- 
position of those was, one hundred and twenty-three of 
these applications were granted, twenty-six are still 
under investigation, nine were refused on the basis of 
false applications; two were refused on the ground of 
previous records. 

During this seune period, brokers* applications, — 
that is for either individuals or firms, the number of 
individuals In a tirm is here regarded as one application, — 
brokers* appiicutions, twenty-three; eighteen of these were 
granted, two were refused on the (::round of previoas record, 
and three arc still being invei^tigated• 

Now, as to the business done before the oomnlssion 
by brokers una agents, IncorDorated companies filing naterial 
with the coomlssion, one hunared and twentyftwo; of these 
one hundred and fifteen were passed ou their first filing, 
four were passed on a second filing, and three are held. 

securities Issuers, that Is companies who issue 
their securities direct without the intervention of a broker, 
twenty-three were passed on the first filing, two were 
passed on the second filing, and two are held for further 

Mow we oome to this question of oonplaints on 
which investigations might or not bw aadt. During the 
period under review, the number of oomplaints that were 
■ade to the Comaission was fifty-five in nuiiber froa the 
public. Of these, on exanimtion, twenty-four complaioants 
were advised that there was no infraction under th« 

s b»-! 





■Uii 018W 

n 3 

• 646 - 9«7»45 

Ur. BUclc««iI. 

Seouritiea Aot or the Crlmloal Code, nor w«a there any 
prospect of bringing eaeh an Infraction to light. In 
aeven oases brokers were warned by letters, re telephone 
or sending telegrams to certain Individuals under certain 
clrcui&stances. Eight ooaplaints were referred to local 
Crown jittorneys, as a result of which reference three 
complalnta are on trial, with the assistance of the Crown 
Attorney. Three complalnta are still to be InTestlgated, 
that la witnout going to the point of on Investigating 
order. Of the fifty-five cosiplaints, eleven resulted 
In Invest Igatlon orders bein;; lEsued by the acting oosos- 
Ittsioner. These resulted i:: two directions to brokers 
unuer the Becurities Act. Six cases are in court or 
preparation for prosecution under the Securities Act, with 
charges also in three of those cases under the Criminal 
Code. ?our investigations are still proceeding. One of 
them was closed out with the report to the ocoplainant 
that no action by the Cooaisslon was warranted. That is the 
complete record of all complaints made by the public dur- 
ing that time to the Commissioner's. 

How, Ur. Speaker, and members of this Legislature, 
I am confident that the provisions of the proposed Bill, 
administered in harmony with the provlsloms of the Criminal 
Code, as I have indicated, will give the public of this 
Province real and actual protection from security frauds. 

Tha vtaole concept of this Act la to make the broker 
and dealer deal honestly with membars of the public and to 
disclose to isembers of the public all the material facts tlMd 
a member of the public is entitled to have before entering 
into a trade relating to securities. It is calculated to 
prevent brokers and dealers and others from occupying positi 

- 3*3 




-j'lOOO'i 0,f6lqiUOO 

baa - latroi'i 

' " y 08o£osif> 

•VI i .siJ-itca at ox -5xlj ** -^m ?. 

- 847 - 


Ur. Blaolcvall. 

«h«re there Is a eonfliot between duty and Interest where 
persons oonstituted tbeDselTes, or attempted to eonstltute 
theaselTes as trusty financial advisors for other people. 
The Act is designed to eliminate, in so far as is posalbla, 
the discretion vested in officials, and to provide an 
adBinlstration under a defluite and ascertained rule of 
law, which establishes rules of the gasiB known to both the 
broker or dealer and to the public. It contemplates that 
the strength and backbone of the Act is the disclosure 
systeA, its insistence upon disclosure of facts and records, 
which create the very record upon wnlch a successful 
prosecution of the wrongdoer can be bused, and its successful 
adxoinistration, as I hftve said before, iu predicated on 
eliminuting tne people wiio snould not be in the business, 
by prosecution under the provisions of the ACt and the 
Criffllnal Cods. 

Together with that, and as the Bill might be under 
szanination for a period of time, I would hope that the 
registration system based on exhausted and careful examin- 
ation plus the prosecution system, would make it possible 
for the legitimate broker and dealer in this Province to 
oonduet his business without being subjected to the critlclSB 
of a burea u craoy, and at the same time give to the public 


- 646 - 



Z should say h«r« that the objaot of this bill or of 
•ny slBllar bill that might properly be brought forward by 
the GeTerxoMQt of tUa proTlnoe — and there ahould be no 
doubt on thle question — is not to prerent the speculator 
from leslQg money. I repeat that. The objeot of thia 
bill is not te protest the speeulator from loalng money. 
The whole conception of speculation InTolres the taking of 
a ohauce or gamble in the hor>e and expectation of that 
gamble being suooessful, and no man or woman in this pro- 
Tlnoe has a right to expect thet they can speculate and 
gamble and at the same time be betting on a sure thing. 
If they asnc to speoulste for profits on an undeveloped 
mining project they must also take the risk of losses on 
failure!*. Let there be no doubt about that concept. 

It is therefore the function of this Government, 
putting it bluntly, to put the public of this province in 
the position where they do not play against a marked deck. 

I am satisfied, Mr. Speaker and members of this 
Legislature, that if this bill beccnas the law in the pro- 
rlnce of Ontario we shall hare those two very desirable 
factors, the freedam to transact business without belnt; sub- 
jected to srbitrary rules, and at the same time an excellent 
ayatem of protection against security frauds, snd It Is 
thsrefore witti pleaaure I move that Bill Ho* 41 be now read 
a aecond time. 

VR. S. B. J0LLIF7E (Leader of the Opposition): ICr. 
Speaker, I &ave listened with a great deal of interest to the 
lengthy speech made by the Attorney Qanaral (Mr. Blackwell) la 
introducing this bill, I tske no objeetion to the length of 
his speech. The bill is an importsnt measure, and we of thia 
group would be very much better aatlafied if other billa, 
parhapa of leaaer importance, were alao introduced with a full 


bB91 Wt' 


n.t etfd y.' 

fri',-i f»10^f 


9tiS : *■' -j%<ib ' 

;i;a yi»' 

- 849 - 5-7-48 

Mr* J«lllff« 

•zplanatlon of th* prinolplM upon «hlo& %h» 0«T«rinMBt 

I do not proposo to dlaouaa all of the prinolplaa to 
vhloh the Attorney General has referred. I ahall deal vltli 
only two or three of them nov, aa I intend to hare a good 
deal further to say when the bill Is in oonoolttee. 

It seoBs ta ■• that in approaohlng a measure of this 
kind there are certain oerdlnal prlnc'rtlas of ehloh we should 
not less sight, and I therefore .i:i£.±x srieily aireet ay atten- 
tion to those cardinal principles. 

In all the lon^ f'.seOMnt which the Attorney Oeneral 
gave ua of the camplezl w:>?ii ond alfficultiea involved id. 
thla type of legislation, one great queation uriaes, and that 
is what la the neeessity for swa^ninfT lac;laldtion of this kind 
govern 1 ng . tracing in teouritie«v Uaoy other eeoaeditiea 
are traded in day hy day, and in neat oaaes the prevention of 
fraud la left to the provisions of tho Crialnal Code which the 
Attorney General described as being complsBMntary to aone of 
the provisions of this bill. 

It seems to me the answer is very simple. The reason 
why it has been found necesaary in so many Jurisdlotiona to 
introduce what la aometimaa called blue-aky leglalation with 
respect to securities, the enactment of securities legisla- 
tion and the setting up of machinery for enforcing thoaa 
maaaurea is thst securities are peouliarly susceptible to 
tranaactiona which are fraudulent. They are intangible 
thlnga, and so often, particularly in a province like ours, 
their value depends upon some expeetatlon rether then upon 
any value which can be physically demonatrated. The result 
is that for many yeara, ever aince the time of the South 3ee 
Bubble, the feaoua flaaco to which the Attorney Oeneral refex^ 
red, people who liwe by their wits have found it expedient to 


^V ;>Q 

'exvootq •dt 

- aSO - 9-7-49 


•Dgage m trading and Mlllng Meurities. 

I aa «•!! avar* tbat that doaoriptlon doaa not apply 
to averybody angagad In that buslnaaa, but navurthalass it la 
tha faot, partioularly In tha provinca of Ontario, that froa 
%laa to tlaa paopla who hara no ability and no Intantlon of 
■aklng an honast liTlng have rasortad to tha trading In 
aaouritlaa and hava baan ubla froK tlma to tlaa to svlndia 
or dlaappolnt ao many mambara of tha .public that an uproar 
haa arlaan and tha govarniMnt ha.** b^^n ca^lad upon to taka 
aaaauraa, and aaaaplng aaaauraa, for tha protection of tha 
ganaral public. 

I do not aat myself up aa an authority on thia aub> at 
by any maans. Tha Attorney General aaid that ha did not, and 
I oartalnly do not, although I amnot entirely Incooant of aoaa 
azparianca of what haa taken place in yaara gone by, baoauaa 
like other stambara of the House I hare been wall acquainted 
with some Tietlma of fraudulent or queationabla or undaairabla 
practices in the aaourltlas buslnaaa and I have acted in a 
profeasioaal capacity for people, both those angagad in tha 
buslnaaa aa wall aa for soaie of their custoiMra. I hare 
acted for them, I might add, in a legal capacity. I am 
therefore not entirely Innocent of knowledge of tha subject, 
though I do not for a moaant pretend that I have any special 
knowledge of thia field. 

It aaaaa to ■•, Mr. Speaker, that wa are now aaalng 
the svlns back of tha pendulum from that period in which 
puoxic damana compallad tha GoTerzBtant and the Laglalature 
to take extraordinary atapa agalnat certain aapacta of tha 
aaeurltles business. I think that I can best aummarlza the 
views put forward by the Attorney Genarai by referring to 
hla apaaoh on tha flrat reading of thia bill. At that time 

to eic 




- 851 - 5-7-48 


ha outllnad th« ioteot of th* bill muob nore briefly tban 

b« did on tb« seoond reading and ha aald this, ableh I fkm 

It repreaants bla poaltlon and tbd position of tba OoTaroaant 

*Z tblnlc I Blgbt Indloata, 
for tha Information of tba Houaa, wbat 
mlSbt ba regardad as tba moat fuadaaantal 
aapaet of tba blil« It brlnga out. If 
I aay auy so, abat alght ba tarmad our 
ayatam of KOTaromaat — that is, reapon- 
si bla goTarncant. Our Sacurltlas Ccm- 
Blaslon, In my vla«, baa rapresantad a 
confusion of tboagbt bataaan tba lav , 
offloars of tba ^roan anforolng offancaa 
regarding tii« 3a :uritlas 4ot Ragulatlons 
and tbe Coda of Aicarloan concapt of a 
non^raspoiisibxa agency. Coasaquantly, 
tbara las always baen a doubt In tbla 
provlnca as to vbo was rasponslbla for 
tba broad policy undar our Sacurltlaa 
laglalatlon, and vbo bore responsibility 
for tbe admlnla trail va pollolaa. 

"Was It a thing In Ontario eallad 
the Sacurltlas Oommisnlon or mxa it tha 
Governuiant rasponslbla to this Lagls- 
lature vibo. In turn, are rasponslbla to 
tba people of tne province? Kzamlna- 
tlon of the lot will Indicate that tba 
GoTertinant and tbe Legislature took tbe 
responsibility « under this Act, by 
datennlnlng, with some precision, tbe 
policy. Subjeet to tbe overall con- 
cept, this Act, If I might say ao» 
raprejenta a return to this concapt 
that there la no agency established 
by tbe Government that provldea a 
mind so brilliant that that mind can 
determine whether a aeourlty la a 
sound aeourlty to ba purchaaed by 
a member of the pub:.ic, or not. 
So, It will be found In this Act that 
there la an abandonment of tbe theory 
that the Conmlasion, sonehov or otber» 
recommends the Securities for sale, and 
conaants to their sale on tbe applied 
baals that aomehow or other they have 
the Qovernmant *'a approval. Ihat this 
Act contemplates — " 

and I think tbla Is very important: 

"— lo that tha applloatlona will be 
honest, and tha oompanlaa and pro- 
motera engaged in the business will 
tell the truth about the securities 
they sell to those membara of the 
public thay approach to induce to 
buy. That Is contemplated by tbe 
proposal under tbla Act, thet thero 
will be proper flllnga made with the 

- 882 - »-7-48 

Mr. Jolllff* 

3«eurltlo8 CoBBlsslon. Th« 
3«ouritl«8 CcoBlsslon will hitrm 
certain duties with relation to 
whether or not theae filings are 
eeoepted for filings, and the 
people selling these securities will 
be required to furnish to the meabers 
of the public who are aslced to sub* 
serlbe to these securities a prlaary 
distribution to the public the old 
tlBe-honoured thing called a 

It seems to me that puts the point very clearly. 
The Government is doing two things. It is returning to the 
Idea that the GoTernnent should be responsible for what la 
done and not sons Independent agency; and secondly It la 
returning to the concept that it will have to be assumed 
until it is proved otherwise that the business is being 
transacted honestly and regularly. 

In keeping with that principle the bill very clear- 
ly seeks to remove from the Securities CoaKlsslon the power 
to initiate investigations unless there is a sworn complaint 
or unless the Attorney General requires them to do so; and 
to remove from the CoDmiission the power to exercise a certain 
intangible but nevertheless sometimes effective compulalon 
over people engaged in the securities business. 

I have a greet deal of aympathy with people who re- 
sent and oppoae the bureaucratic administration of any Act 
such ss the present Securities Act. I have a greet deal 
of sympathy with people who resent end oppose the vesting 
of arbitrary power in a civil servsnt or sn independent 
body which is neither a court nor a goveroMnt. Neverthe* 
less, I ask the House to remember that the reason for setting 
up the present Securities Commission and for the growth of 
thet administration was that the Ccoaisslon could exert a 
certain pressure on people in the seourltlee business who, 
some of them, had been guilty of an abuse of that business 
at the expense of the general public. 


!IiJ ^ 

' b'yp.s'^e 9 


— «>;' l^'T^', 



- 868 - 9-7-48 

I know, of oourst, that nanjr p«opl« oonplain baoaus* 
they do not win whan thay spaoulata on a ona hundraA to ona 
•hot. Thara are Baoy ooBplalnts of that kind. MaTortha- 
lacs, ara ry aambar of this Housa knows that a graat Aaal of 
money throughout this proTlnca has been fraudulently taken 
away from the citizens of Ontario by high pressure salesmen 
and others daallng In saeurltles which had no great Talua 
and were certainly not what they were represented to be. 

I suggest that the ordinary processes of the courts 
are not always adequate for the purpose of enforcing the law. 
If thay ware there would be no need of police officers; there 
would be no need of detectives, if all that was needed to be 
done was to prosecute the offender after an offence had been 
cotninltted> It would bA locking the stable door after the 
horse was stolen. 

There are certain types of people who aotlvely engage 
In certain types of crime, and the Attorney General well 
knows that his police force and the municipal police force 
keep a close eye on the activities of these people. Thera 
have been a great many security salesmen and aone brokers who 
have engaged in another type of crime, and I suggest, Mr. 
Speaker, that it is just wishful tniujcing to laaglne that 
you are going to proteet the public from people of that kind 
by a statute under which, after an offence is conaoltted, they 
can be prosecuted aua a suitable penalty be imposed. Kvery- 
body knows, as a matter of fact, that amny of the people Id 
this bualnss are birds of passage and it is much more dlffl* 
cuxt to catch aoma or tnaa than It would be to catch a differ- 
ent type of man who engages in banking or aoaathlng of that 

I think most members of the House know that aoaa 
people are engaged in this business of aalllng aaeuritlas who 




- W* - 3-7-45 


candidly «dalt that for thaa th« buslaas is • raokat. Tbay 
apaak of it fraaly and oonalatantly aa a raokat, not a bual- 
nasa. Many of tham ara not oltizana of thla provinoa. Thay 
ara hara for only a abort tlma, Juat aa lon« aa tbay oan gat 
aaay with It, and unlasa tbay oan ba auocaaafuly aztradltad 
froBi any ona of a hundrad Jurladlotlona tbay may narar ba 
brought to juatlca and anpaar in tha oourta. ffrarybody 
knowa that tbara aaa conaldarabia conplalnt about thla 
problaB aona yaara ago, ana for a tlma tha Prima Ulnlatar 
of this pruvinca waa Its Securltias Comffllaslonar. 

During tha haight of mining activity in tha provinoa 
in tha lata 1930 *a thara was again a good daal of complaint 
and a good daal of activity on tha part of tha Commlaalon 
in raatrainmg the more aggresaive buccaneers engaged In tha 
businass. A.a everybody also knowa, that type of trading 
interferes with the trading carried on by tha honest and 
legitimate mambars of the financial oonmunity who are en- 
gaged in trading in securities. 

The first point I have to make, therefore, la that 
we simply cannot afford to loae sight of tha importance of 
protecting tha public. While I agree with many of tha 
things that the Attorney General said, naverthalaaa I have 
tha unaaay feeling that a few montha or yaara from now thia 
province is quite likely to be overrun by a type of securi- 
ties saieaman tnat you wixi never catch up witn in any 
court, and thouaanda of people who heretofore have not 
been cuatomers of any broker or atock saleaaan will ba 
approaohao, ond succaasfuliy approached, by unscrupulous 
aalaaaan, and induced to hand over their Victory Bonda 
aarad during tha war ir return for aoma mythical Lake Shore 
or aoaathing of that kind which can be paddled very aaaily 
•Bongat aiapla hardworking people by a nan who oan talk 

r so 111. 

- SM - 9-7-48 


ten tlB«s as faataa tbay oan and can think i&uoh fastar. 
I do not tblnk that paopla of that kind oao ba ocntrollad 
■arely by a belatad invaatigatloR or by a belated nroaa- 
outlon. I think that a police roroe of acaia kizui la re- 
quired to restrain those aotlvltles, just as a polloa foroe 
of soBa kind Is required to restrain the ni'^re exuberant 
aetiTitlea of orlmlnala engaged in other lines. 

There la a second point to whloh I mant to refer 
before I ocnolude. There is one aspeot of the whole pro- 
blem to whloh I did not hear the Attorney General refer, 
and that was the problem of ensuring that a reasonable 
portion of the capital subsorlbe<1 ^>*ca the public through 
the sale of securities actually reaohes the property on 
whloh It la proposed to be expended. 

MR. BLAGKIBLL: I do not want to Interrupt ny hon» 
friend but I did refer to that. 

UR. J0LLIFF5: I stand correoted. It may be that 
the Attorney Oeneral did refer to that. I think possibly he 
did, in connection with the powers of the Commission to re- 
view or reopen registration. 

MR. 3LACKWBLL: If the Leader of the Opposition wishes 

me to do 80 now, I will direct his mind to what is oontaine4 

in the Act Itself. But first let ne aay that in my dlaeua- 

sion of the prinoiplas of the bill I did make reference to 

the proTlsion of the Act whleh requires the filing of a clear 

and concise statement. That la found in aeetion 40(1 ) (a) » 

whloh requires: 

*(a) a clear and concise 
stetement dated and elgaed by eTery 

person who is a dlreetor, promoter, 
underwriter or optionee at the time 
of the filing, containing a full» 
true and plain diaoloaure of all 
material facts including detalla 
of all options and auoh other 
information as may be prescribed by 
the regulations, has been filed 

- 856 - y 7.^5 


with th« Connlssion and • vrltten 
reoeipt tbarefor rooolved froa thm 
registrar; and 

*(b) auoh brokar, or In tha 
oasa of a aalasman, tha broker by 
whom be is employed, has notified 
the Coamlaslon In writing of hia 
intention to engage in such priaary 
distribution to the publio.* 

And aubsaotion (2) of aeotion 40 providaa that vhere the 
Commlaaion la aatiafled upon evidence presented that anj 
director is not sTailable to algn tha statement required by 
aabaaetion (1), the requirement for hia aignature nay ba 
diapansed with. 

'Subaaetion (S) of the same section provides that a 
ocmpany that has been carrying on buainaaa for more than 
one year, a balance sheet and profit and loaa atatement. 
Subaaetion (4) proTldaa that in the case of a mining com- 
pany a full report on the property muat be made by a 
qualified mining engineer, geologist or prospector, and 
the quallficationa are aet forth. That report muat set 
forth the source of knowledge, the date of examination, 
and so on. 

Proviaion is also made in the aaoa aeotion for the 
receiving of an ananded atatement. 

The nazt aaation providea that the CoouDlaaion ahali 
acoept for filing any atatement or amended statement unleaa 
it appears to tha Cooniaslon that tha profit and loas atate«> 
ment la mlaleading or faila to comply with any of tha re- 
quirements of aeetion 49, or contalna any atatement or 
promise or forecast which la mialeading, falae or deceptive, 
or which baa the effeet of concealing material facts: also 
where an unconaoionable consideration haa been paid or given 
for the acquisition of the property or for promotional pur- 
poaea^ or where the proceeds from the sale of securities are 

not sufficient 

..... jL-i# a bn- 
odt atoll 5©' 

ad? ei: 


X i ■ 


- M7 - ^7-45 


to aoooBpllsh the objeots Indioatad in tha atataaant. Tba 
OoBDlaalon haa diaoration to datarmloa all thaae tblnga. 
It aaaaa to aa that thare la a graat daal of protaatlon for 
the public in that matarlal haying to ba fllad before thara 
can ba any prlaaz7 distribution of the saeurltlea. 

I really do not eant to take up the tlaa of tha L««d«r 
of the Oppoaitlonv and if there are other queatlooa that ha 
daalrea to aak I ahall be fUad to clear them up later. 

XR. .TQLLI77S; I think I have folloved the Attorney 
General. Hoaever, it doea not aeea to aa that the neaaure 
itself contama any effeotly^ guarantee that a due proportion 
of the funds raised will be expended on the property for 
which they are lutended, and that applies particularly to 
mining properties. I realize that the difficulty is such 
mors serious ir. the case of aining properties for obTloua 
reasona . The importanoe of my point la alaply this. 
From year to year, the people of the proTlnce of Ontario 
hare set aside in one way or anotner their saringa and It 
Is of extreae importanoe to the eelfare of the whole pro- 
Tinoe as well as of the nation that those sarings should be 
wisely inYested« At the present tiioe they are mostly going 
into Victory Bonds, as we are all aware, but the time will 
aoon eoese when we shall be faeed with an entirely different 
altuation m which a much larger proportion of tne aaringa 
of the public will ba IcTestad In induatrlal or mining 

It aeeaa to im very important to tha futuxv of 
Ontario whether nlnaty-flTe per cant or ninety per cant or 
aixty per cent or forty per cent of the Bswinga of our 
people 3txex*. be inresteC in sound Victory iioDda or whether 
an undue proportion of thaae funda aball find their way 
into speculatlTc aecurities, sold through telephone aalla 

808 - >7-46 


by lftrg« battalions of saltsBaD. If the stTlnga of our 
people are to be Inveated in undue proportion In that vaj» 
then thla province laalaply not going to hare adequate 
financing for the work that needs to be done, whether 1% la 
done by prirate enterprise or in aoae other way. 

I sake that auggeatlon now beeauae I have not aeen Ita 
laportanee recognised In the bill except for soae entirely 
orthodox requirenents es to the dlsoloaure of infonutlon. 
Tbere is value 1r having lofonnatliii if it la available to 
people who havA the tine and Intelllgenee to obtain It and 
look into It, but it will nean nothing to large numbers of 
people whc In oj judgment will be Induced to Invest their 
savings In projeets of various kinds, not because of their 
intrinsic value, but because of the talking ability of 
certain salesmen. I would like tc see that need more 
aerloualy considered by the Government. 

I do not desire to take up further time of the House 
now In discussing further the principles of the bill except 
to say that I realize that the administration of the lot will 
in the end t)robably turn out to be more Important than the 
provisions of the Act itself. I s'^.^v'st that that was pro- 
bably the ease with the Securities Act of 1030 and probably 
also ttw case with the original statute, the Securities Fraud 
and Prevention 4ot. It will probacj.y be toe case witn thia 
Aot alao. 

It will be the duty of this House to consider at the 
appropriate time every aeetlon of thia ffleaaure» which I 
think la one of the moat involved and one of the moat 
Important to come before ua at this aeaalon. I realise that 
the Attorney Oemeral haa apent time In drawing up rive or 
alx or aeven drafts of the measure and probably by now feels 
that he hea heard all that be wanta to hear about It, and I 

BftMd «81J8 



1 ,+ r» <^ m-^ c 

8£x w eeiio u 






-jflJ iO fi: 

an^BBi/selfc .'! won 




1 ilOXl 

>ia bci 


- 659 - 5-7-46 


would DOt blAiM blM for tlMt. 

MR. BLACKRLL: Oh, no. I bopo I g«T« the Houso no 
such linnraaslon. 

IfK. fiQLHrrt: Mo. Bo sold (hot It would bo eoa- 
pleaontory to oaother woosuro, but I do not think wo eon 
looTA It at thAt . I thinir this nnaaure dooorroo noro 
contiaoro'.ion than it is uossioio r«>r uo to giTo It In 
the ordinary way In thlu House, containing aa It dooa aany 
highly toctmioal aeetlona and nany other* which require 
olose ex«rainatlon» I thererore want to urge that thia 
bill be referred to the Oooisltteo on Legal Bills, and I 
■oy say that I am not the ouly one who feels that that 
ought to bo done because I see in this morning's press 
that there was a meeting of the Prospectors and Developers 
Assoclatiop yesterday at ehloh • resolution was passed 
urging that thia bill be referred to the Committee on 
Legal Bills for further consideration and that the 
Assoc iat loo be afforded the opportunity of making repra- 
sentatlons to that Committee. That seemed to me to be an 
entirely reasonable suggestion. 

(Paga e«0 follawa) 


- 8«C - &->7-45 

Mr .70111 ff« 

I, th«r«for*, vlih to aoT«» Moondcd by Hr.OruBOMtt, 
ttaat the bill now before the Boum b« referred to the 
CoMilttoe on Legal Bliie. I do not «tut to out out <21a' 
cueslon on lt» bowerer. 

MR. J08SPH B. 3AL3BER0 (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker, if 
dlacuaalon im not cut off - - 

MR, S?BAr8R A8 I UQdarster. Mr. Blaokwell 
moras aecond T^BAin^. of 3A11 Ho, <1 und If I interpret cor- 
reeti; r.'.' aoa. nenbe urx 3outh [HT<tJolliTft] 
haa aald, hia Botlon la that .t be referred to the Coanlttee 
on Legal Bills. 

MR-. JOLLIFFI: That is joy intentlcn 7 did aot 
Ictead 1% out off dlseusalon at ttls tlBe, but I vlshed 
to tftko this opportunity belnp: the only the opportunity 
I anaii nare on second reading, to ao/e ihcx. at tbe proper 
tlme« it be referred to the Corsnlttee on Legal Bills. 

MR. 3AL3BBRO: The only reason I jumped was beeause 
I feared if discussion was to be cut off I would not hare 
an opportunity, which 1 wanted, to ask a question of the 
OoTernment. I will do that anyway^ but I might hare kept 
It for a bit later. 

The question I wish to direct in oonaeotlon with 
this bill is one affeetlng the whole principle of the bill, 
and alao inrolTes the past record of the GoTerament in 
enforcing legislation to proteet the investing public* 
The Financial Poat. In a recent Isaue, dealt with this 
problem of proteetlng the publio froM unsorupuloua agents 
and people who aeea to thrive upon the exploitation of 
innoeent people in the prorinoe. They go ao far aa to 
•tate — and when X quote froai the Financial Poet, I think 
X aa quoting a very eonaerratlTe paper; it la not the Tribune, 
which anyone can quest a. i., very few hon. members will queatioa 


, t J-efi 


^ . 97»':. 




'ffy ■R' 

OS ^fs- '. 

. 861 - »-7-46 


th« Flnanel*! Po«t nuthorlty on mattars of this sort, or 

question their Icnowledge of what goes on In the aerket. So 

X •■ quoting the anrket** ovn bible, end they seyt 

*TlMre ere some people, 
Ineludlng persons of influence, eho 
ergue that there should be no inter- 
fernnoe with the stock racketeers; 
that It is not the function of 
goTernfflent to regulate any business; 
that whatever raeketeers' operetlons 
may be, the country eventually bene- 
fits through the development of new 

Now then, it la a sad ocuaBent upon certain aapeote 
of private enterprlsa if the country, in order to develop 
Its new nines, should require the sacrifices that so many 
people make, and which are very detrimental to many families, 
and upon which the mining racketeers thrive. I might aey, 
Mro Speaker, from some knowledge, that natural resources 
can be developed without such recketeerlng taotios, and I 
oould cite at least the experiences of one country, where 
great new natural resources have been developed, where the 
prospector actually benefited from his successful prospect- 
ing, and where he wea not, aa is very often the case here, 
side- tracked and poverty-stricken by finenclal manlpulatora 
who made the profits out of his orlglnel work. 

However, things ceing as tnsy are, It is the first 

teak of government to proteet the public from racketeers, aM 

the Financial Post, in the same front page editorial later on 

aays the following, whicn aeoanda an answer from this Ooven- 

ment. It saya as follows: 

"Nothing could be more 
deanglng to the system of individ- 
ual enterprise than tolerance of 
the eotlvltlea of a relatively saell 
but tremendously active financial 
underworld now operetlng froB 
Toronto, which Is made possible 
by the Onterlo Government's failure 
to eggressively enforce present 
security reguletlona.* 

itsifi »Ai 




- 868 - »-7-46 

lb>. 8«lsb«rg 

That la • sarlout oharg*, ooBlng fron • publication of 
tbla aort. 

I an, Mr. Spaakar, vhola-baartadly In favour of any 
rsflulatlona and tha atrangthanlng of tha Sacurltlea Act, whlob 
alll of far tha aaxlmuB proteetlon to honaat paraona who until 
A0» bara baen Tletiaisadt but what la tbe uaa of paaaizig Acta 
if tbe OoTaravant faila to «nforca than? 

NoW; this eharga cox&aa froB tha Financial Poat. Ub- 

doubtadly tha foraar Aot bad waaknaasaa, otbamlaa thara would 

bo no n«« Aot propoaadi but tUn Financial Post doaa not oob- 

plain of tha laglslatlon; it oomplalna of the GovemaaBt'a 

failure to anforoa aziating lagialatlon, which, and again I 

quote -• 

*. . . of a relatively small but 
active financial underworld to 
exploit the innocent people, 
and in many cases to rob then 
of their life*s aavings.* 

That ia vary important, and it af facta the principle of the 

bill. Was it Just the inauffieiency of laglslation, tha 

waakaaaaea of the old legislation, that made it possible 

for rackataars to exploit people, or was it tha failure of 

governinantT What guarantee have we *- what guarantee haa 

tha public -' that even with the new Sacurltlea Act, the 

Oovarnmant will enforce It and will offer the people tha 

■aximuA or protection «hicn taey aesire and deserve? 

I want to say, on tha gaaaral question of the bill, 

that I oongratulttte the hon. Attoroay Oeaaral (ICr.Blaokwall) 

on tha speech that ha mada« I tried to follow his speech 

as bast I could I an a layman; I have never bought nor 

aold aeeurities; I never gambled on tha market. I know 

nothing about it. Z do know, however, aa a public paraon 

-- and 1 believe all tha hon. Bembera in thia Houaa ara in 

the aaaa poaltlon — that we hear frequently tha oaaplainta 

to tea 8 8i J*.- 

doiAw ,*0A ftniB p. art 

I^r xsii! 6 :n 

?•"- ™>v-.f,r ...c-ff ovuii won 


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e a STB tBdi lij 


V. c.xdiiieg lovsn "" ^98 bio e 

ao&te ia ^liil^oja 

::i9diB s avelle 

Mr* Salsborc 

and sad ttorlea of p«opl« «ho hare been robbtd by uaaerupuious 
•g«at0 or talesBsn, of their life's seTings. I, therefore, 
tried to follow the speeeh of the hon. Attorney General, end 
I vent to amy thet parts of hie speech aeice sense, even to e 
leyaea like myeelf ; so maoh so, that I thought — end still 
do think -- that perts of his speech deellnfr vlth vary 
teohnt^ai problems could very properly be printed in soaa 
pamphlet for the everage peroon to he7e en idea of the vag- 
•itude end the intrlcaeies of the billc I ssy that very 
sincerely. I mean that. 

But I any that he oennot -• nor oen thia Boase -*- go 
too far In the eneotment of legislation to provide an instru- 
ment for the protection of the people^ I agree with the hon. 
Attorney General that if an individual da?ires, consoientious- 
ly, to gat Into the market, "have a fiing at it" so to speek, 
to gamble and speculate, that is his right, and if he loses 
his investment, that esAa it. But what we ere concerned 
with, is the innocent person who is misled, who is given 
falae infoinnation, who is given promises about gold in 
eormeotion with what is in reality nothing more than a hole 
In the ground. 

MR. BLACKWSLL: A moose pasture. 

UR. 3AL3BIR0: Tea. It is these people who require 
proteetion. I do not know whether this Act will provide it 
a\afficiently I expected the hon. Leader of the Oppoeition 
(Mr. Jolliffe) to be really more definite ebout that. 
Frankly, I relied upon him, who is not only in the responsiblo 
position of being the Leader of the Oppoeition — and that is 
•OB* responsibility — but who is also a lawyer, and who, aa 
he himself admits, has had cases on both sides of the fence. 
Well, I suppose that la the Job of a lawyer — to ect both 
for end against -- I had hoped that he would say this Act 




- 864 - 3-7-4C 

Mr. Saiaberg 

was adequuta, or ir ii ^oi :.,i, wnere it oould ba airon^tuoc- 

Ur Spaakcer, I and a groun of js ara vitally Inter- 
ested, Ae are anxloua to aupport tna aovernmant ana tne housa 
in anactlTig laglalatlon vbieh will provlda the maxlwoi pro- 
te«?t. — *'^** \r<piktt •^ftftfla nf th« nrovlnr?**, who ern df^nlroua 
of n.ukln^ HHta iaYti^toaattf, 6ut %i;o liave taea Dlaiaw^ Lw.*. , 
above everything, there ia ote thing we went to know -- and 
I t '■' ■^^'i entitled to k'l. « "'*., and I thi'V «a er« ex- 

pressing, '.be wish of a grant i>iany people in this province -- 
- . :s, why the Governmant , ihtt words of the Financial 

Pos* '*^"'"'9d to enforce existing legislation,* end *l:y it 
permitted dtook racketeers to operate upon an unsuspecting 
public . 

' ■* !C<3 tr j>. we nay be 

able to fcm some opinion aa to auethar we can rely upon the 
Government to enforce any new legislation, or to merely 
declare to the public that nothing can be expected. The 

Government cannot enforce new leglslstlcn any more than the 
oH le-ylslotlon. The Financial Post aays that; It la not 
lutj 'wuuuunii* <s that arc ;:;;.'. iiig on the Government; we are 
merely quoting the Financial Poat, and we want an answer as 
to why the Gov?rnr.ent failed to enforce legislation before 
wo CHH nave any coni"iaoace tnat at will enforce l:. ' r-eT 
legislation which It propoaes now, and which we are prapared 
to sunrort . subject to the analysis and examination and ex* 
pressicns r opinion expressed by those who are aklilaa in t^e 
law and know all of its ramifloationa. 

MR. M. F. H8PBURN fElffln'- ».'r. Speaker. It is not nv 
intention tc take much or the time or the liou^ie ciscussin^ a 
bill which has already been muoh diacuaaad by great legal 



- 666 - 8-7-46 


Th« hon« Attorney 0«Mr«l (ICr. Blaokwall) has spokam 
OB this bill Bomm %hf hours, and X ftppreciat* tne faet that 
bt gave to us a laogtby azplanatloBi «• b«Te also board at 
soma lan^tb froa the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr* 
Jolliffe) who noTed a verbal aBtandment, and before proceeding^ 
Mr. Speaker I should like to know your ruling with regard to 
the ajBendment moved in a verbal way by the hon. Leader of 
the Opposition. 

MR> JOLLIFFB: I have It here in writing, so there 
will be no difficulty about that. 

lit. 3PBAKBI: I understood we should vote on th« 
second reading of Bill No. 41 as moved by Ur. Blackwell, and 
then accept the motion of the hon. Leader of the Opposition 
•8 a separate motion, 

IIR> HBPBURN (Slgln): Well, Mr. Spealcer, in order to 
elarlfy the situation, will you read the motion before the 
Bouse y and the amendment Just now presented by the hon. 
Leader of the Opposition? 

IIR. 3P8AKBR: May 1 say to the bon. member for York 
South (Mr. Jolliffe) — and 1 think I am correct — that the 
hon. Attorney General has moved the second reading of Bill 41. 
Then I have a motion, moved by Mr. Jolliffe, sooondod by Mr. 
Orumnett, that the bill now before the House be referred to 
the CoBBilttee on Legal Bills. 

MR. HEPBUBN (Blgin): Mr. Speaker, the questicn I want 
settled in my mind is, will we vote on the acond reading of the 
bill — 

■R. sraAKBR: If you will let me amswer; 1 am tryias to 
tell you. I will put the motion, first, for second reading of 
the bill. Then, if that is carried, I will introduce the 
motion by the hon. Leader of the apposition that the bill be 
referred to the Committee on Legal Bills, as a separate motion. 


f ft f «?»•»; 

:>ltL b 



Mr*f A Jk - 




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iaum I 



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vAAu. ..UuXi (fid.- 

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- 866 &-7-46 


•od not *B aiMBdmAnt. 

UR. JOLLIPFB: I ««8 quite villlng to b« g\ild«d by 
■hat ««8 a«id at tbe tlsa, I think, by Tour Honour, and I 
raalizad aftar I morad tha amandoant In tba form I did that 
It might paaalbly hava tha affaet of ahuttlni^ off diaoua- 
slon, and that vaa not zoy daalra. It may ba that tha hon. 
■•■bar for Slgln (ltr„ Bapburn), aho has had many y«ara ax* 
p«rlaaea in thla Houaa, would Icnov muoh battar than I vhat 
%ba propar praoadura l9« I want to faollitata dlsouaalon, 
but, at tha aama tima. I want to giro affaot to tha aug- 
gaatlon that it should go to tha Coonlttaa on Lagal Billa. 

UR. MBPBURN (Ilgln): I qulto undaratand that. Mr. 
Spaakar, aa I aald, «a llatenad with great interest to tha 
lengthy explanation of this Bill Noo 41 by the hon. Attorney 
General and to further dlseuaalon by twa other hon. memta ra 
of thl s House . 

Thia bill la before ua aa the result of a OMnitta* 
known as the Urquhart Cammittea on Mining, being named by tha 
preaent Adminiatration. The Committee aaa a creature of thia 
Governnent . 

The Committee heard representationa from all iBter- 
eated parties, and rery rightly ao, because their very 
liyalihood was being affaetad. Tha hon. Attorney Oenaral 

quite frankly and openly said ha had diaragardad many of the 
raeomnendatlrnrt of the Cominlttae. and had added -- 1 presume, 
aitnout further consultation aith the CexoDittee — further 
raatriotire regulationao 

UR, BLACKIBLL: Mr. Spaakar, if I may oorreat tha hon. 
■aabar for llgla. 

UR. BBPBDRN (Ugin): Tea, go ahead. 

UR. BLACKIBLL: I did not, on my frank adalaalon, admit 
that «a failed to follow the 0«Hlaaion in umnj reapeota. Tha 


sz adfflssa 



raapaots in vblob we fallad to follav it were daeldadly 
11ml tod, and that aztant la aa I praaanted It to tha hon. 
maabara of tha Uouaa. That appaara on tha raaard. 

Tha othar natters we iQtroduoed, alaa on the raeord, 
are af a rery limited nature, and I do not think the hon. 
member for Slgln should eraggarata or minlmlta. 

MRa HIPBURN (Xlgio): It la a natter of opinion. 
These are rather drastic; that la our opinion, and that la 
aharad by !BAr<v others in this House. I think It is a tIo- 
latlon or raith to change the regulatlona without giving the 
Interested parties an opportunity to be heard. They have 
no oppartunlty elsewhere. They cannot appear before this 
House and make representations; It can only be done outside 
of this ohaaber. 

VSH, BLACKWELL: Mr. Speaker, I feel bound again to 
correct the expression of the hon. member for Elgin on a 
'breach of faith.* I indicated to the House in what I 

aald on second reading that all the organisations did make 
representations to my office, and may 1 say In that respect 
— so the House can Judge whether it is a breach of faith 
er not -- that it has not been indicated to me until to- 
day, as a result of a wire, which, no doubt, the hon. aeaber 
for Slffln has, that there was any desire to have any further 
representations made. ifveryDody who has had any desire ahat- 
aoever to make representations, or objected to this bill, 
has had that oppertunity 

MR. A. HOLLAND AChS3 (Carleton): Mr. Speaker, fr«B W9 
many years experience in thla Legislature, I know that we have 
a Legal Cocmlttee, and so if there la any hon. aeaber — I 
don't care what party -- 

I. weX 

. fttO"*' 




^ i<f .^ ~»> 


is oewfT 


- see - 5-7-46 

— who suggest that the Bill should go to the Coaaaittee on 
Legal Bills, I think it should go there directly, and ssTe 
all of this see-sa»lng aoross the floor of the House. I 
think tlttt is what the Coamlttee on Legal Bills is for. 

MR. HIPBURN: I thank you. My good friend, the 
Hon. Attorney General, has said he only heard one objection 
but It ean« fron a very important group (£ people, the 
Prospetjb' o 'ind Distributors A8soolation,«ere unanimous on 

UK. BLACKWSLL: This is only on the question of 
good or bad faith. If the Hon. menber for Slgin (Mr. Hepburn) 
auTOcates that it goes to the Connoltt^e, that is permissible, 
but if he charges me with bed faith — 

OR, UEFBUHN: Maybe I oveivieBChed myself in sajrlng, 
"bad faith**. But it la bad practice, after representations 
have been nade before a conmlttee, who, after they have made 
their representations, have a right to believe there is some 
finality to it, and then to find that the Hon. Attorney 
General has arbitrarily changed the regulations — I submit, 
it is at least bad practice. These people have been cut 
off. They can only meet with us in the lobbies, and I don*t 
?.xke that kind of thing. 

I have a telegram here from the Prospectors' and 
Distributors* Assooiation, whloh appeared m the Globe and 
Mall — and I presume the Bon. Attorney General reads that 
very valuable pi^er — and Mr. Norman, one of the outstand- 
ing financial writers of this oountz^, made the same sugs** 
estion, and I will deal with the situation, but I vant to 
be sure that this matter is placed properly before Fsrlia- 
ment. In view of the fact, that we oan make rules or 
break them, I am going to stOve an amendment. I have «ilou^ 
here to enable me to speak at some length, but I want to 
get this to a vote before six o'clock. I am prepared to 




- 669 - 3.7.^5 

support tne L^otlon of Bjr Bon. friend, the leader of the 

opposition (Ur. Jolliffe), but I will rote against a seoond 

reading of the Bill unl«:}a this motion Is carried and I 

cannot Help but believe biiat b7 Hon. friend, the leader 

of the opposition, and the C.C.F. will agree with ■•, and 

we might as well get them eomlng and goiog, and so I noire 


"That the second reading of Bill Mo. 41 
be amended by adding the words *and the 
Bill shall referred to the Committee on 
Legal Bills' - 

MP. PLACKWELL: Mr. Spealcer, If I might take 
some weight ciT the mind of ine Hon. member for Elgin 
(Mr. Bepburn) I am very happy to have this Bill go before 
the Legal Counittee. Why oxt settle the matter instead 
of talking so much about it. 

MA. HXPBURN: You took three hours and did not 
tell us that either. 

MR. BLACKWILL: 1 did not have much of an oppor- 

MR. USFBUBM: Not in three hours? 

MR. ROBERT LlURliiJi (Ottawa East): You are slipping. 

MR. GEODGZ H. MITCHELL (York North): 1 want to 
make a very brief observation, anu direct a question to the 
Hon. Attorney General. uurlng one part of the Hon. 
Attorney General*s observutiona to-day, he said that no aatta: 
how small the fund contributed, even to the extent pf only 
being sufficient to drill one diamond drill hole — the thought 
occurred to me, looking back on those years when the Northern 
minei^ and some of the mining publications, were doi:*g a thriving 
basioess, that It was mainly on representation made on "tli>- 
offs** in this publication regarding the immediate future of 
some hole in the ground, ana so on. 

I want to ask the Hon. Attorney General when moneij 





iBtoaoD \9R 



J 00 

lo 9-: "ellf 

- 870 - 3-7-46 

la applied for for tlia purpoaa of drilling a iiola, hov 
^f ttiesa paopla vho ara putting up ihm aooay for tluit 
purpoaa to know whether or mt a bona flda taat baa baan 
■ada and what the actual flndlnga ara? That la aoaathlac 
that 80 ffiany people vho have Inveated taonmj la thoaa 
yaara are definitely concerned about, aa they are at tha 
aarcy aa in the power of the integrity and honeaty of thm 
people conducting theaa operatiozui. What steps have 
been takan to protect the public ap.aliist Improper find- 
ings or return? 

UH. BLACKWEIX: I thought you were aaklng a 
speech. I did not get the question. If the Bon. msBber 
for North Tork (Mro Mitchell) «>uld take thecjiestlon 
siaply, I will try and answer It. 

UH. MZTCUELL: MTo Speaker, the question is de- 
finitely this; what protection have the Investors as to the 
correctoiaa ot the returns of these mining operations, in- 
sofar as the findings are concerned? 

UR. BLnCKWELL: Ur. Speaker, that is a simple 
question arising from the drilling of one small hole. In 
order to answer that I will have to repeat my speech on 
second £ euaing. Uay 1 auggest to the Hon. mother for 
Tork North (Ur. Mitchell) that he come to the Legal Bills 
Coamittea and partiolpate in examination of the Bill, and 
try to satisfy hSaaelf aa to whether the Bill shall b« 
reported, and whether It daala vlth the matter ha had In 
alxA cor not. 

MR. lILLlaM A. QBUMMRT (Cochrane South): Mr. 
;»peakBr, l do not i«nt to taka up much of the tine oC tha 
Laglalatura and unduly prolong this debate, but ooBlm^ 
from a oonatituenoy in which moat of the Blnlag la dona, 
I think I may be jarmltted to aay a few worda. 

ci h&ii Oi. 


- 871 - 5-7-46 

lh«n I aay "alnlng" I MMin nlolng for th« mataXs 
And mlDl2« for tb« public, vhiob is don« on Bay Street. 

I was plaaaed to bear the Hou. Attorney General 
aay tliat la connection with this problea there were nany 
headaches atid I a* aora I can agree with hlji, becamsa It 
has been quite a headache to go through this Bill, and one 
haa to look into the tranaactlooa on the vtock exchange to 
get the full implication of ehat the bill means. I believe 
tiiat I could aaggast a remedy for all these haadachea and 
all theoe difficulties. Why not socialize the whole min- 
ing Industry? 

I first comment on seme of the aspects of the Bill 
with waich i am heartily lu accord, first the appointment 
of a three man commlasion I think la a very good feature, 
•and I congratulate the Hon. Attorney Oeneral on making that 

secondly, the proTlsion for the extension of the 
bond for two years after the transaction for which It waa 
grunted have ceased to exist la soother very good feature. 

Then, there is alao the feature giving wider powers 
to the commission, and that means a considerable amount, and 
I congratulate the Hon. Attorney General for having put that 
In the Bill. 

Then, again the audit section. The scope of ti* 
audit section has been very materially Increased, and the Hon. 
Attorney General ought to be eommended for giving the audit 
aaotlon a wider scope. 

Now, I oome to one or two features which I do not 
Ilka. When I started to read tha Act one evening, I cam* 
to section Jd and I read down aa follows: **No peraon ahall" • 
and ao forth — "telephone the realdence of a psrson", and 
so on. And I said to myself, "Well, at last here is oni 

e : 


lie c 


. o .>5 : .L 

« 8f8 - 3-7-45 

AOt «e are putting Isto; t&ey ar« dallvering a piinob directly 
to tlia unscrupulous probotera and atook aalaaaan. But than 
I turned over tUe page and I wxaX admit, Mr. 3peakar, that 
having read aab-aection £ of Section 56, I conaidarad that 
the teeth were all pulled out of thia Act, and left it 
poractioally as toothlaaa ae a ma born baby. I cannot aaa 
why the exception ahould h&ve been ;ut into Section 56. 
There is no harm in prohibiting stocK salesman from calling 
the residence of a {arson- It is all right to call an 
offloa, because a man may ue in his office or place of bua- 
inasa, but why bother people at tneir places of residence? 
The prohibition in the first part of the Section, I believe, 
la correct, but then t3 go to work una lake the teeth out 
of it by the exception contained in sub-section 2 and "▲** 
and "B" is something I do not understand, 

Noa, there is unotner portion of the Act I do not 
like. The Urquhart Coiomisslon, in Section 12 of their 
report, purt II, made reconmiendatlon that provision be nada 
in the Act to prevent people obtaining possession of lists 
of shareholders of a corporation and so forth* 

UB, BIACKWKLL: May I Indicate to the Bon. member 
for Cochrane South (Mr. Grummatt) that properly comes under 
the Companies Act, and I may tell him that a Bill will ba 
introduced to look after that. 

MA. ORUMMBTT: I am very pleased to t»ar that, Mr* 
Attorney General, because I think it la very naoaaaary. 
Now, the only thing I have to mention, Mr. Spaakflr, ia in ra- 
gard to the regulations. In the old Act, a traaandoua of 
regulations piled up. In fact, this Act has eight sectiona 
where the old Act had forty. A great, bulk of the old Act 
consisted of r epilations. I hops it will not ba naoaaaary 
to build up regttlationa beliknd this Act. If ttera is any 



u J ; 



■J i 



- 6" - S.7.48 

indBMit, let ua bring it la in tbe shapt of an aBendmant, 
wtaara it can ba incorporated in the ao%, and let ua tate 
the oorreot maaaure, and do not let us have regulations takfttf 
the place of proTlalone of the Act. 

lifi. OVXHALL (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker, I would 
like to naka aona obaervationa on thia Act. The Hon. 
Attorney Ganeral baa aald he is satlafled that the public 
will be adequately protected againat mining operations and 
he further atatea that he belloTea that full details ahould 
be given the public of any mine or development in larticulor. 
Wa understand, of course, that if more details vera given to 
the publift, there would be Ittta awindling of the public. 
They bave an Aot in Britain that takes care of that principle 
in the Bill and about their registration, and no doubt they 
are Intended to be oompliod with* 

(Page 874 follows) 

.?aar:!JDar»jr amt-aeiua 



600 8 Kiaa 



- ©■'* ' 5-7-45 

Jh* Attdrc«7-G«n«ral said that information in raspaet t« 

Blnlng propartias would haT« to bo glron in dotail to 

tho publle. That la vhoro I dlaagroo Lit bo road juat 

a lino or t«D of Sootion 49 (A)\ 

"Ihoro tho aoouritioa to bo tradad 
eonalat of aharoa of a miulng cosn>acy 
a full and up~to-dato roport on tho 
proporty of tho company ana tho dorolop- 
■ont thoroof made by a porson who in 
tho opinion of tho Commission xa a 
qntlii'lod mining ocr.ineor goclogiat or 
proapootor cortifiod by 8':oh poraon 
atfttlng " 

and ac on ';^.a aignificant phraso tc which I wish to dlroct 

tho attont;ion of tho Houst 13 tn^s: "a porson who in tho 

opinion of tho Connlssion is a qnaliftod mining onginoor^goologiat 

or prospoctor." i t.hlnic tfcat 3an bo imDrorod upon, if 

«a aro to havo saToral.pagos or rogistorod broicora or salos-> 

■an, I thinic wo mi(^t vory woll prorido in this subsootion 

somothing about tho roglotration of mining onginoors, goologiata 

and proapoctors. Not that i moan to auggost that all of 

thorn aro not raliablOj but mora dotaila should bo mado atailabla 

to tho publle as to thoir quali float ions to oporato in tho 

■ining flold., and than whon a layman aaw a raport signod 

by a roglstarod mining enginoory goologiat or proapootor, 

ho wvuld plaaa mora rolianoa upon tho roport, and thara 

would bo loas llicallhood of a rogistorod official putting 

hia naoa to Information unloaa ho wea fairly aura that that 

Information waa oorroot 

fo had a groat doal to aay a littla whila ago about 

tho wondorful thlnga wa hava boon ablo to acco:spllsh in 

thia oouatry through ttaa progroaa that haa boon udo in 

aoiantlflc davolapoaont , and I think that Instoad of Ioot- 

ing it all ta tha -9aouritiaa Comj salon appointod by tba 

Qovornmant, va ahauld hava mining onginoara, saologiata,aiid 

aa an raglatarad^and than va would havo aocrodltod and 



3 A9ti^ 


wojia Bid 


.0 AO 

- 87S - »-?-45 

Ifr. OTvnll 

r«li«bl« officials oartifylne t« th« aocuraoy af tha 
Inforr^tlon given. That would pravant nany paopla 
fron beoocainc viciliu, ua taoy oava baan In tha past, 
of unaorupulaua aalasaan af mining aaourltlaa. W& 
ahouia maJca sura that mora datalls ara mada ayailabla 
to tna puoiio, ana shouia try to soe tnat nora of tha 
funda raiatd ga Into tha actual davalapma&t of tha 
actual mlr.lng prapei'tlae for which thav are aubscrlbad. 
It la ooaaaar. knowlad^ il&i to-aay a gooa asal oi tha 
■anay that la aubaotlbadfor mining bharaa daaa not find 
Ita wav Into tha davalorniant of th» property iteelf . 
■• aciv^uia saa that more or taa money subacribad la loada 
availablo for daTaloping our minds and buflding up tha 

URc 3AISBSRG; 3afora the second reading la 
carried may I eiak tha Attornay-Qaneral If he la going 
to anaver tha charges to which I referred in THS FINANCLLL 
POST? If the gevernmant does not want to answer -— 

MB* SPSAEEB: Do not impute that» 

m. SAISBBRG: I say, unless tha Govarnaant answers 
the charges made by the Financial Fost.> 

IS. BULCKiZLL: Tha hano namber rises to aak a 
qaaatlaa, than proceeds to make a sx>aach. It la vary 
difficult for ma ta construe from all ha said, which I 
prasxma waa his contribution on the second reading, what 
it waa he wanted to know. If ha will let me know that I 
will try to anawar. 

m. 34iaB8RG: I quoted from an aditorlal In tha 
Financial Poat, and I thouf^t I had maide layaelf clear. 
I will quote it again. Tha Financial Poat aald; 



- 676 - Z'7-^5 

Ur. 2alsb«r8 

"Nothing oould btt toorm daiaaglng 
to th« systom of IndlTldual •nt«rprla« than 
tolaranoa of tha aotlritiaa of tha 
ralatlvaly aoall but tramandoualy activa 
financial undarworld now oparatlng from 
Toronto whioh is laada posaibla by tha Ontarla 
^aTanuBtnt'a fallura aggraaaivaly to anferoa 
praaant aaourity rac^Iatlons .*• 

That is a aarious charga, ana comiLg from auoh a 
journal, I vould lika to hava an answer fran tha QaTarnioint. 

m. NIXON: Guilty or not gulltv.. 

lIRv BLlCKIfSLL: I appraolata ^xxa hon. nambar'^ '-^°>^ 
leant bacauaa It just QOcurad to ma that I might ba brought 
bafora the bar of thia Lagialatura I might say in raply 
to tha a^Hn oambar far St. Uadraw lllr.> Salsbarg), that ha 
did not Indioata to whioh Isauaa of tha Financial Ptat ha 
rafarr d 'Ria Flnanoial Poat has carriad on a campaign 
through many issuas on this quastlon. I do not know whathar 
It la tha daslra af tha Housa that I ahauld conment 
axbauatlvaly at this tlma with ralatlon to all tha Innuandoaa* 
opinions, and ohargas of tha Financial Peat on this quastlan, 
but I would suggsst that it ba not to>nlght, at flTa mlnutaa 
to alx a'clook. If I am to ba put on trial, I shall ba 
quita happy to ana war o 

MR.. JOLLUFk: I might aay for tha anllghtansMnt 
af tha han. oambar far Sto Andraw that thara la a propar tlca 
far putting of quastlona to tha Ministry, and the sacond 
raading ofaBlll Is not tha right tlma« I hava not objactad 
up to new. 

m. liadlBOD: Ifambara ovar thara hava baan aaklng 

lA. SAL3BZRG: ffo anly hava ozm from thia alda. 

ISv SPEAK£R: I undaratand that tha gavarzuatnt hava 
indloatad thalr wlllingnasa to hava thia bill go to tba 
Ligal Bllla Canaxttaa altar tha aaoond raading* ma Attornay- 

i ft * 

i»vo aiec'srsM A onai 

- 877 - 

Q«n«ral has ia»v«d th« ■•cond r««ding, and I h^f aco«pt«d 
fiotlca af a subsidiary motion from ths Opposltlsn Isadar 
far ths bill ta:i^ to tha Ugal Bills CenBlttaa. «• will 
nav vata on tha saoend raadlng. 

m. HSPBDRN (Slgln): I nsTad an amandxasnt to tht 
■etlan far tha saoand raadlng^ 

MR. SPEAKER: Tha has mambar oovad an aaandaant 
but I had alraady accaptad a subsidiary notlan, and I 
shall hara to ruls his aut. 

in. BliCKWBLL: Da I undarstand that tha ban. Bambar 
for Slgln la not aatlaf lad with tha assuranca that I gsT* 
hiffl that tha bill will ga to tha La gal 3111s Commlttaa? 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): I am quita centant with tha 
assure :ica af tha Attarnay-Ganaral that tha bill will ga ta 
tha Lagal Bllla Casmittaa, and I am praparad to withdraw 
■y aaandnant. 

▲laandmant withdrawn* 

nation agraad ta and bill raad tha sacand tloa. 

le. JOLLIPTE: llTo Spaakar, I nova that tha bill 
ba rafarrad ta tha Commlttaa an Lagal Bllla. 

Ifetlan agraad to . 

UR» J0i.LIFF2: I an so orercoma at tha motion balng 
oarrlad unanlmaualy that I hardly know what to aay, but 
in Tlaw af n^at happanad a littla whlla aga, I think wa 
ought to nava tha mambar far Slgln [Up, Uapburn) noBlnatad 
ta tha Lagal Bills Canmlttaa. Ha haa apakan In a daragatary 
way aara than onoa about qy balng a lawyar. It Is trua 
I an, but as avarybady can saa ha ia a much bat tar lawyar 
than I am, and I think ha shauld ba an that oooiklttaa. Ha 
alsa aojaotad to tha faot that I ha^a a faw dagraas. I am 
sura that tha Uausa ouat haTa raallaad In tha laat faw months 


' "^9 •oiioa 
IT won 


er bB9t IS •& f)«»i5« flv 

.«r woxtil - niafuw ^•i'tito 

- 878 - 
11.5 «-7..45 


that tht h*n. iMBb«r for Slgin (Mr. U«pburn) has b««& 
• ouoh B»r« apt pupil than I. 

MR. ERSW: In Davlng tha adjournaant of tha 
Bauaa, Mr* Spaakar, I might aay that tha buainaaa to-B»rraw 
will ba raauMlng tha adjauroad tebata an tha Spaaoh 
fram tha Thrana, 

Uotlan agraad ta and tha Hausa adjournad at 
6 p.B. 



- 879 - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday , lUroh 8, 1948. 

SPSJLKIB: Honourable f 1111 am J. Stevart, C.B.I. 

The House met at 3 o'clock. 


MR. SPSAKSB: Presenting petitiona. 

Reading and receiying petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 


Introduction of bills. 

MR. UITCHELL F. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaicer, 1 
move, seconded by Mr. Nixon (Brant), that leave be given to 
introduce a bill Intituled "An Act to amend tha Optoaetry Act", 
and that same be now read the first tine. 

Motion egreed to and bill read the first tiJiM. 

SON. B. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, 
may we have an explanation, please? 

MR. HBfBURN (Elgin): Oh -- Well, Mr. Speaker, I flo not 
know whether any explanation is necessary in respect to this 

SBVBRJLL HCn. MEMBERS: Sure, it la. 

MR. HBFBURN (Elgin): Z night say it annuls eoapletely 
the political oomaltaant mada by the hon. Prlae Minister in a 
letter sent to the optometrists five days before the eleetlon in 

Y J S II a 8 . 21 a S H T 

J k a HTnaaxxia 

.S ;H!1AS<^S 

.jCo. S ^a tec '^T 

.anoi;rit«q : ^)(A«^ .fiM 

'-•Tis d<i- ©v«eX y;: 
,,mali -fn: &aei IXltf baa ^t frae^sA ndii;foM 

.38391 .J3XIBX;jXe J3JB OVfiil 38? \.> 

Bill* ot toeqmei at. x^BUZoro&n «i aollBCTBlcrre ras 'lori^a.'fTY wofr2{ 

.ai ti ,c ^afisaMaM .pidh JAHHyaa 

Mi aoitQBlB esljf e^to^ec ititfoio^qo ad* o* ^aee reitai 

- 860 - 8-8-48. 

Ur, H«pbum. 

1943 and glT«n affaot to by l«gial«tloD last yvar. It raatores 
th« bill to its original form, and atops tha azploltatlon of 
tha publlo by optoawtrlatt in connection with tba aala of mf- 

HON. GEORGI A. I»IW (PrlM Mini iter ) : Of ooursa %t la 
lapoaalble to azpaot tha hon. aambar for Slgln (Ur. Hapburn) to 
approach anywhera near the truth. The fact raoaina that not ona 
aingle regulation haa been paaaad under tha Aot» and he aall 
knowa It. 

MR. HIPBUBN (Elgin): They have not the courage to paaa 
the regulatlona, and I will aae that that power la reoored froa 
their control. They have not the courage to do it. 

MR. VITIAN: Va will aaa. 

HON. GEORGE H. DUMBiR (ProTincial Secretary): Gouraeeoua, 

MR. 7RED 1 . TTARREN (Hamllton-Wentworth) : Ur. Speaker, I 
move, aeoonded by Itr, Rlgga, that leave be given to Introduce an 
Act intituled "An Act to enable municipalltiea to eatabliah Con- 
flunlty Planning and Uouaing Authoritiea", and that aame be now 
read a flrat tiiaa. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the flrat tina. 

MB. HAROLD R. SCOTT (Peterborough): Ur. Spealoer, I fflora , 
aeeonded by Vix, Martin (Haldimand-Norf oik) , that leave be given 
to introduce an Act intituled "An Act to aaand tha Profaaaional 
Englneara* Act", and the aana be now read tha flrat tiaa. 

Motion agraad to and bill read tha flrat tiaa. 

MR. EDWARD B. JOLUm (Leader of tha Oppoaitlon): Mr. 
8|>aaker, may wa have an explanation froa tha oovar? 

IB. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, tha purpoaa of thia bill la to 
give affect to aoaa aattara of adBlniatration and control with> 
in the Aiaociation of Profaaalonal Sngineera. Theae are aattera 

.av .38 - 

to i: qx9 •xiJ aqo^s hxA ,jxrxol Jjs rcf exlc> 

-e^ lo elB • olLduq erit 


jia lot i^dmmi j osqxd 

moTl be u^9i 

J" tpfliwoo Sftf ton ere oo 11911;^ 

f . : 9d dVBt 

.;,. Txxm eldano o;f JnA nA" 5p 

iXSTjts 0c^ 97 del iB -IBM . 5eJbnooet 

"•' : (noii'iBoq^. .. ,... .^ lefijaeu., - . . --i 

9i9VfX^ e :1 ao2;^jBaal(Xxo iis evijii e. .TeiLsaqb 

o* B. .> eeoj'ua erf 3- .le^lBoqr JS .SM 

-rl*rw loT-tn. _iimte lo BieJ^^Bic ace T'*^?- p^vr^cj 

- 881 - S-6-4S. 

UM, 500 tt. 

the ca«d for which hM beoom* apparent during tbt last ••T«r«l 
years* •zperleno« In administering the Aet. 

The bill also prarenta the use of tltlea vhloh glTe 
the impreaalon that unqualified persona are profaaaional 

UR. FRBD W. WARBSN (HamiltOQ-ffentvorth) : Ut> Speaker, 
I beg to moTe, aeocnded by Mr. Riggt (Windaor-Walkerrllle) , 
that leaTe be riven to introduce a bill intituled "in Act to 
proTide for the relief of peraons who have auffered aubatan- 
tial Impairment by illneaa or unemployment, or any otheor 
oauao beyond their control, with reapeot to their homea." 

MR. SFBAKBR: Shall the motion stand for t«D days? 

MR. WARBEK: I am Just following the unwritten mles of 
the House. Ve have been breaking them every day. Other hon. 
■sobers are breaA.iug them in introducing bllla — 

MR. SPIAKXR: No, hardly that, fill you permit this to 
stctd as a notice of motion? 

MR. WARRBi: Very well, Ux, Speaker. 

The motion stands. 

BDN. LBLIB K. BLACKIIZLL (Attorney General): lir. Spaakar, 
I bag to more, seconded Dy ur. Frosty, tnat leave be given to 
introduoe a Bill intituled "An Act to amend tbo Public Trustees* 
Act", and the same be now read a first time. 

UotioD agreed to and bill read the rirst timm. 

MR. SDWAFD B. JOLLIPfB (Leader of the Opposition): Will 
the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Blackwell) give us a word of ex- 

MR. BLACKVXLL: Mr. Speaker. 1 would be delighted to glwtt 
a word of explanation. In 194S, when the hon. member for Blgin 
(Mr. ..di)Durn) was irrlmi lunister or this provinoo and a great doal 
more of an iaolationist than he is to-day, he amendad the Publio 

I C,C: 




Mr. Blaekw«ll. 

Trust««a* lot to proTld* that public trust««s oould onlj buj 
the bonds of th« proTlno« of Ontario, or booda guarantaad by 
tha proTlnoa of Ontiurlo. Thla CoTernment faala that stepa 
ahould be takan backward along the road, to national unity, 
and the bill it to repeal that reatrlotlon. 

HON. LI81JX U. FROST (lUnister of Ulnes): Mr; 
Speaker, I beg to oove, aeoonded by ur. Blaokwall, that leaTa 
be glv»D to introduce an Aet Intituled *An Act to amend the 
Mining Aot*, and that aame be now read a flrat time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the firat tioa. 

MB. CALVIN H. TAYLOR (Temiakamlng) : Mr. Speaker, 
would the hon. Minister (Mr. Frost) mind explaining this 

MR. niOST: This bill contains a number of anendments 
to various sections. Some of the amendments were recooimended 
by the Ontario Royal Commission on Mining; some of them hara 
been suggested by the Association of the Prospectors and 
Developers, and some of them have been reoommended by our own 

HON. LESUE t. BLACKWZLL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Frost, that leave ba 
given to introduce a bill intituled **An Act to amend the 
Evidence Act", and that same be now read a firat time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the flrat time. 

MB. SFIAKA: The hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. 
Doucatt) haa asked leave to speak before tba orders of tb« 

HON. OSOBOI H. DOUOXTT (Minister of Public Worka) : 
Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to 
make a statement upon what occurred here laat evening *t 
6:91 o'clock, when a fire broke out in the east end of this 

I. iWiOA 

a 4ft 

-♦■ .. 

era si 



^f\A 'pAatwfrTf 

J 1 

^^iJ i 

fl ^•f^.wSofld Xldiit 

re[ edJ 


bns e 


■z a99d 





Ur. Douo«tt« 

building on the third floor. I am rory happy to raport that 
dua to the attention to duty and praaence of mind of the 
civil aarranta, with the oooperatlon of the rery awlft 
raaponaa of the Toronto Fire Brigade, the fire waa brou^t 
under control and quickly axtlngulahed. 

I %M glad to aay that no eaaentlal docuoenta were dea* 
troyed, due to the efficiency of the ataff which oocuplea 
theaa offleaa. fe atlll hara the budget. 

The daxaage done la eatlmated at about four thouaand 
dollara, which la fully covered by insurance, and I hare to 
asaure thla honourable body that there la no auaplclon aa to 
there being any aparka emanating from what took place hera 

KB. ZDHaRD B. J0LLI7FX (Leader of the Oppoaltlon) : Ur. 
Speaker, before the Ordera of the Day are called, I find it 
naoeaaary to rlae to move the adjournment of the Houae to dia- 
ouaa a matter of very great urgency and public iiqjortance. It 
la a matter upon which the Houae and general public already 
hawB aoma knowledge, although perhaps not aa much knowledge aa 
la nacaaaary. 

In yeaterday* a "Globe and iZall** there appeared a report 

which reads, In part, as follows: 

'*The realgnatlon of the Seven-man Ontario 
Labo\xr Relatlona* Board waa reported to have baan 
narrowly averted, for the preaant, laat night 
after membera of the Board conferred with Labour 
Uiniater Charlea Daley. 

"The aouroe of the trouble waa that tha 
Ontario Board waa raaentful, beoauae it felt ita 
work waa being restricted and impeded by tha 
National Labour Relations' Board. The Federal Board 
reoantly ruled adveraely on two of ita declalona, 
and it la underatood the Ontario Board is inaiatlng 
on the clarification of how it la expected to 
administer the Act in this provlnoa. 

"Tha Board woa reported ready to raaigB 
yeaterday morning. After a brief conferenea with 
Ur. Daley, however, a further dlsousaion with tha 

. tteouoQ , 

- £88 - 


i-flri? froqsi ot vqced visv az "oolt bttrit ef.t no r\ntbltud 

rtiwe •^isT - attaqooo «ri* ri*jtw ,e*njBne« XivJto 

trtsiioid 8BV r :>issllS ait'K o:rnoioT orl^- lo sanocrEO'i 

mmb •rttw s^ ol> XAl;^XI9Q89 on tadt xab o7 5aI,s bib I 

6e;tBa^}8« el exxoA dsofBAJb edl 

. \ - ', 

ai» Y*C[ »rt» lo 8ia£>' id .le^aqC 

-* vor. V. "^ «• -' '' 

.',^i«Ba«oen aX 

:awc "^ '^'^ p " ,d^ 




. e 


as asfif"' 

^exsaqqB di; 

> ^ l2>£a»r 

na»o' '""^ • 


'LK at 

bTBoa Xb-: 

. aoii 

aoi.rBua-i-Bai erll 

• XaXBd asf"" 

' aa^ lo aoTuoa 

.Xx/llneBai bbw .''" uii.;^ju^ 

' anoX^flXaH xi/odsJ 
■^XaBTcerJbB beXx/i \,ijiirj^ 
-•rft &ooi'8Tei)Xii/ eX *! *: '■' 
:.i JBOlliXflXo ^ 

J: a ©a oi' ■^Jbao'i Dsdrtoqai euw XjiboS ariT" 
9^^ .aevaworl ,Y®-i^ 

- 884 - S-e-45. 

Mr. Jointf. 

Labour Ulnlstor wa« arranged for last night. 

'*Tha Board understood that It ahould 
administer the j^et in a broad senaa, l£r. Dalay 
azplalnad. *It faals that restrictions ara 
balng placed on this interpretation, and that 
the restrictions especially aTfeot Labour.* Ur» 
Daley said he had no inforraatlon, howarer, that 
the Board Intended to resign. 

"The Board had done a pralsevorthy Job of 
handling Labour Relations In Ontario since Its 
formation, Mr. Daley said. He expressed the 
hope that the situation could be cleared up and 
an understanding reached which would permit the 
Board to continue In function. 

"The Chairman of the Ontario Board la 
Jacob Finkelman. The other mejibers are Russell 
Harrey, £. J. Hoporand, H. J. Padgett, W. J. 
Corbett, C. £. Shumakar and R. !• Teagla." 

Now, Iat. Speaker, I have not discussed this aiatttr 
at any time with any nomber of the Ontario Relatlona* Board, 
but facts have coma to my attention which I think should be 
In the possession of this House. They Indicate, I think, a 
very serious crisis in industrial relatlonahlp In this proT- 
Inoe, and particularly In the administration of Order In 
Ccudcil 1003. I will explain why in a mciaent. 

I think It should ba made perfectly clear that thla 
difference between the Ontario Board and the National Board 
arises out of a decision reaaerea on tno last day of February 
by the National Board In a case Involving, on appeal fron the 
Ontario Board, the International Dhlon of Mining, Mills and 
Smelter iior&ers, and two empxoyee organisations, the Wright 
Hargreavea Mine and the Suli>ha&lte Mine. 

In that decision of February 28th the National BoarA 
reached what i can only describe as a nonsensical ana utterly 
disastrous decision. If industrial relations In thla prov- 
ince are to be maintained on a satisfactory baais, and If the 
process of certirication is to continue throughout tne ladua- 
try. then the decision of the National Board on the last day 





baa q 



9d^ fEDL 

.Cli^O- JJH:.".-^ 

•■ SBW It 

-vcnc air 


■^31:^ .tad i: 


885 -> 3>a-45. 

Ur. JoUitt: 

of February will hcr« to be rectified. 

I want to mm3» perfeotly olear wbat happened, to that 
there will be no misunderstanding, and I wlah to take thlf 
opportunity of laying again that I think no fault la to be 
found with the Ontario Board nor the aoiribers, and In bringing 
the matter before the House I do ao with the hope that we 
ahall be able to get from all groups In thla Uouae a poeitlw 
and rery strong affirmation of our support of the position 
which haa been taken by the Ontario Board and of our dissatis- 
faction with the absurd way In which 1003 Is being Interpreted 
and administered by the national Board, and I think, in order 
to aTold all the difficulties which are bound to arise under 
this decision, we oust make our position known to Ottawa with- 
out delay. 

The decision is this: last year the mine, mill and 
smelter workers petitioned the Labour Board with respect to ths 
two mines I have mentioned. As a result, the Board directed a 
Tote to be held In each mine. In each mine there were a number 
of employees eligible to vote, - three hundred and nlnety-slz 
in one case, and two hundred and ninety- two In the other, - and 
constituted a voters' list exactly as in our own provincial, 
•. general election, where there art voters* lists of those 
eligible to vote. 

In the result, a substantial number voted for the Inter- 
national Union and a considerable number voted for the Bnployees* 
Association, but neither of the two obtained a oloar majority of 
those eligible to vote. In both cases the International Union 
was ahead of Its rival, and haul a majority over its rival. ITnder 
a previous decision of ttie National Board It was imposslbla for 
the Ontario Board to grant certification to the winner of the vote, 
due to the National Board's doolslon In the Hudson's Bay Ulninc 


»-•- V f r 


jCibnB^B^tetoi/Bla on ed LLtw oieAt 

j^ig. . :i. baa «aTauii,ui 

•w c I »o J no >tt0m 

aor, a •!: ' ecrtJC-r-- I/jb aroi o^ olcfa ed Ilarie 

rnv ^TL/ccfe er*. 


baa Lita ,«niir siij -rr- 

' al nolcloob 

iSifjEi-'n B 9ie 

Y ■ J> - ■ 

.m br,' 

,ialoaivonq tmo 1 

-TO^ill b t b9tov ie 

» a©9\;oI<iaiS eria" rto^ !>•; 

'r,-,.r,; - _ ^ 

aldlBBOCitai BBW 2 

.■- ^'-n^ii 

.^aaoXJaaci svail I box; 
1 iiO0d ni: t 

;il 00^ i9£iXi ,9c., 

ixe imti *vi9ior b b& 
f~ 9todt arterfw ,.. ^'s iBit 

iv^.eaoo bOB noXaV iBoolima 
owi- Oil? lo aeriJion ;^]Jd ,flol;t^BlopB8A 

od nl .otf'ov ot 9l(il:^lLB ©r 
„ ii bod baa ,IflVli B*i lo bBQda bjbw 
10 nolaJtooi) Bx/oirarKq b 
ceo i-ro-r?, o* 6ttfio9 ol' 

ui.».' i : cy .u^.4 J 

- 866 - S-e-45, 

lir, Jolllfr«. 

caa« and others. 

Tb«y thought It boat to have a nev vota, a **xaui-off** 

▼Ota. Thay rut It In that way, and I think It la vary raaaon- 

able. And I think If all the hon. oambara of this Houaa will 

follow thia reasoning they will agree it ia entirely ftiir. 

They said: 

"On the other hand, if we were to diimlsa both 
petitions to thia oasa, we would be ignoring Xh9 
highly aignlflcant foct that between eighty-five 
and eighty>eight per eent. of the eiq>loyeea in thia 
enterpriae expresaed a deaire to bargain collective- 
ly with the employer. Then confronted with a choioa 
between two trade unions, aone votera ezpreaaed a 
preference for one, and some for the other. Are we 
entitled to assuina that each Toter ia so committed 
to the trade union for which he voted that he would 
rather forego the privilege of collective bargaining 
than bargain through the other? That may perhapa be 
the casa, but, in our opinion, it would be highly 
improper for us to make such a deduction without 
further evidence. Such further evidence can only be 
obtained by offering to the employees a further 
opportunity to expresa their views." 

Ind the Ontario Board, therefore, directed a "run-off" 
vote at each mine, so that the employees could select the union 
of their choice* 

The ooapany appealed to the National Board, and the 
National Board directed that there could not be a "run -off" 
vote, - "The whole thing is off; there is no election, no 
choice." They got nothing aa the result of many months of 
perfectly legitimate activities throuc^ the regular channels. 

Before I conclude, 1 taink it is necessary to call the 
attention of the Uousa to the fantastic reasoning set forth In 
the decision, as it affects the situation for taking future 

This decision is affecting the employees of the Union; 
it affects the entire fut'jre administration of Order 1003, 
ic view or tne fact mat iha National fioard has stated point 
by point what the procedu e shall ba to be followed by the 



. 667 - 9>e-45 

Mr. Jolliff* 

Ontario Board. Tbay say: 

1l9 baliere that future difficultias may bt 
obTlatad if «• aat down shortly th« prooadura 
whloh it is proposad should ba followad in daal- 
ing with applications by unions , subjaot, of ooursa, 
to any naoeaaary aodif ioations from tiaa to tima. 

And thia is tha prooadura thay lay down, Mr. Spaakar, 

which I submit will simply hara tha affact of shalring 

tha futura applications for oartlfioation, unlaas a 

subatantial majority of ths amployaaa can ba shown to hava 

alraady joinad tha Union. 

"(1) Upon tha raoaipt of tha application an inTaati- 
gation Offioar of tha Board will axanina tha mambarahip 
raoords of tha applicant union «nd of any othar 
union intareatad in tha application. Ha will ohaclc 
tha mamoarship racorda with tha Company's payroll, 
comparing tha signaturas in tha union racorda with 
tha signaturas in the amployar's racorda, if nacassary, 
aod raport to tha Board. 

"(2) Unlass tha Board is prima facia aatisfied that 
a majority of tha eaployaas affactad ara membars 
of tha applicant union, tha Board will rajact tha 
application . 

"(3) If tne 3oard finds that a substantial majority 
of tha amployaas affactad ara regular nambars of tha 
applicant union - that is, if thay have joined in tha 
regular way, and have paid dues - the Board may 
oartify bargaining representatives without directing 
any Tote. 

"(4) If the Board finda that the majority of the 
aaployeas affected who belong to the applicant union 
la not substantial or that an important aaotion of 
tha alleged majority consists of employees wbo ara not 
regular members, but who hara signed requests for tha 
applicant union to elect or appoint bargaining re- 
praaantatiras on their behalf, tha Board will in most 
oasea, on tha application of tha employer, direct a vote. 

And I Bslc you to note the significant omission. In these 

oiroumatancas the uoara will, on tne application of the employers. < 

who may or may not apply, -direct a vote. 

"(6) The Board will not include in the ballot the name of 
any intervening or competing union unless the Board is alao 
prima facie satisfied that a majority of tha amployaas 
affactad are members of the competing or intervening union. 
Thia will rarely happen, and it can only happen if aoma of 
the employeea affected belong to or aign authoritationa for 





LIT. Jolllff*. 

■or« thmn on* union so that thmj nay b« daaiaad to b« 
iMobart of two or nor* unlooa. 

*(6) If ta« applicant union falla to sacura a majorltj 

Tota of tha aaqployaaa aTfaetad, thla will leav* it 

opan for azu>thar organization to apply and aaak a naw 

Tota on Its application. 

"(7) Whan ttaia prooadora haa baan follovad and an 
application is rajtotad, a naw application by tha saJM 
union abould not ba antartalnad until a period of at 
laaat six months haa alapaad.** 

Thosa ara tha pointa which the national Board la now lay- 
ing down and which maJce it almoat iJipoaaibla for tha Ontario 
Board, adnlrabla though tha paraonnal of that Board may ba, to 
make a aucceaa of administering an order in thia provinea. 

Thara are two principles at st&xa: one ia tha nonaanai- 
eal and abaurd rule that there muat be a majority, a rule which 
will not apply in any other election I have erer heard of. 

SEVSHAL U0I4. UiyBSRS: Oh, yea. 

UR, JOLLIFFB: Ur, Speaker, I hold in my hand the llata 
of tha laat f^eneral election, and there ia not a aingle hon. 
memoer or thia House who had a majority of all the electors 
affected by the laat provincial election. 

MR. DREW: I think you are niistakan. 

UR. JQLLIFFS: 1 think pernapa tha hon. PrlaaMlniatar may 
mlaundaratand ma. I know there are a nuaibar who had a majority 
of all the votea oaat, but there ia not an hon. mambar of thla 
Houae who had a majority of all the names on the Totera* lists. 

Tha National Board have laid down tha prlncipla that you 
cannot gat a certificate unleaa you can gat a majority of all on 
tha Totera' liata. Tha thing ia as abaurd in one caaa aa In tha 
other. Why, Ur. Speaker, if you zaada that a ruling in thla Hoxiaa, 
there would be no Laglalatura; there would be no democratic vote 
of thia kind hare, at all. 

Whan you make that a rule of oollectlTS bargaining you 

•cT d# 6aa«»& ad yais x»iit tAd.^ os ••xoa 

X^Xtpfffl M •ouoat 

r r 

oil* iooqBi .a ow 


X«CI If 


■ aff"*' « 


689 - 9>8-46. 

Ux. Jolllff*. 

nay b« atsvircd that amnj p«opl« will b« dvnlsd th« right of 
oolleotlTt bargaining, to which r^ooQiltion hat baan glfan 
by all the groups in thla Uoxiaa. 

The significance la that the Board laay not run a "run- 
off" vote. This will create other dlfflcultlee In thit pror- 
Inee, xinlese wa make It perfectly clear now to the proper 
authority at Ottawa that It muat be corrected. 

And I Bay aay that In my view the great majority of 
the Induatrlal dlsturbaneea In thla country alnce the ear begaa 
can be laid at the door of the Dominion CoTemmant and of that 
thoroughly Incompetent and totally absurd Minister of Labour, 
the hon. Romphrey Ultohell. 

I think In thla, the largeat Industrial province of 
the country, It la high time we made it clear that the hon. 
Benibara of the Houae, with the ezperiencea they have had, do 
not ahara the vlewa expresaed in the National Board's deoiaion 
nor the vlewa of the hon. Minister of Labour (Ur. MitdaU) with 
reapect to Induatrlal relatione in Canada at the preaent time. 

Now, Mr, Speaker, I ask for the forgiteneaa of the 
Houae if I have exceeded the ten-minute limit, and I act aerio;ia- 
ly appealing for a atrong expreaaion of opinion from the epokes- 
man of the varloua groups in thla House, to the end that the 
Interpretatlona, - reasonable and wise interpretations, - given 
the Order by the Ontario Labour helations* Board, may have the 
support and endoraatlon of thla Houae. 

HGR. CHAPLES DALB7 (Minister of Labour): tir. Speaker, 
In diacusaln^ this queation 1 am afraid that 1, too, would 
have to ask the Indulgence of thla House to poaalbly exceed by 
some amall aaount the ten mlnutea which would be allotted ta 

I quite agree with the hon. Leader of the Oppoeltlon 
(Mr. Jolllffe) that thla la a very i^>ortant queation. I think 

to td^li itAi bmttfb o 
u mn ton yam bn 


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. 890 - 3-6-46. 

llr. Daisy. 

{Ur, Jolllff*) that thla la a Tary Important qxiattion. Z 
think, to bring ny points oior* olaarly to tht Hous* , 
■hould r«ad thla short atatsmsnt Isadlng up to just how thla 
Board csflka to bs sstabllshsA. It said: 

"Ths Coils ctlT* Bargaining Aot was superssdsd by 
ths Vartlms Labour Rsgulatlons and by ths Ontario Labour Ha- 
lations* Board Act. Ths Fsdsral Govsmasnt dslsg^atsd to tha 
Ontario Labour Rslations* Board, sstabllshsd undsr ths last- 
msntionsd Act, ths administration of ths QartliDs Labour 
Rslations' Rsgulatlons, with rsspsct to what might bs tsrmsd 
*war Industrlss* within ths provinos, and mads ths Fsdsral 
Rsculatlona appllcabls to thoss Industrlss which rsoalnad 
witam ins jurisdiction of ths provincs, thus snsuring uni- 
formity In policy in connsction with collsctivs bargaining 
for all indufltrles within ths provinca of Ontario. 

"To promo ts ths uniformity of collsctlTS-bargaln- 
Ing Isglslatlon throughout ths Dominion af Canada, ths GOTsm- 
msnt of ths provinos has agrssd with ths Dominion that all 
dscxsions of ths Ontario Labour Rslations' Board shall bs sub- 
jaot to appsal to ths Wartims Labour Rslations' Board (Nation- 
al). Ovsr four hundrsd casss havs bsanfilsd with ths Board 
smcs its incsption on ^prll 17th, 1944, and a rast majority 
of thsm havs bssn finally dlspossd of. 

'*Vlth ths sxparisncas that ths Bosrd has gainad, 
It Is to bs sxpscisd tnat tne Board will incrsasa in sfflolsnoy 
In ths coming ysar. AoconpllshBants of ths Board can bsst ba 
lllustratad by a rsvisw of tha fsct that ths numbsr of aan-daya 
lost by rsason of Induatrial disputss auring tbs past ysar la 
substantially Isss than during ths prsvious ysar. It Is nots- 
worthy thst ths numbsr of oasss in which ths SB^ploysrs and 
smployass havs baan In dlsagraaoant has baan inflnltsslmal." 


SiJ 'i, U << i. 

Xs-rafjtf? ar!* o&an fins . •' 

ai: i«- 


- 691 - 

Mr. Dtdmj, 

Mtm, Mr. 8p«ak«r, vlth that illustration of wtet tta* 
•SJ:««m«nt waa, and how tba Board waa sat up, I oust aay 
tbat aftsr a yaar'a axparianoa In oparatlng this Board I aa, 
to a graat aztant, absolutaly In agraanant with all laa hon. 
Laadar of tha Oppoaltion (Mr. JoUiffa) has aaid. 

(Paga No. 892 follaws.) 

%dt taAw to aoiian- idi diXn ,rt«3U*qa .<xM ,»uvi 

\az tsum I »<Ti/ t«e b«w 5i«oa •dit wori ba» ^aM^w tn*in»rx9« 

(.•voiioi s«a «oif sa^iL. 

. 692 - 3-6-49 

Mr. D«l«7 

I would Ilka to aay this at tha outsat. I do not 
think thara is a group of uan represantlng labour and nan- 
agamant in lila ProTlnoa or In any othar ProTlnoa that has 
bad graater axparlanoa, that ara mora oonaolantloua, that 
have greater knoaladga of labour and aaaaganant ralation- 
ahipa than tha Labour Malationa Board of tha Provinoa or 

I alao agree with the Bon. leader of the oppos- 
ition that there is little of complaint or oritloiai that 
can be handed to this Board. 1 think under tha existiixg 
ciroufflstances they have done a magnificant job. 

1 would like to go to the extent of explaining 
just how the personnel of this Board was selected. It was 
ay responsibility, as Minister of Labour, to sat up this 
Board. With respect to Labour, I consulted with tha 
heads of the conferences and the railway unions; 1 got 
panels of names from them, and I selected; and I am very 
happy to say I selected three very fine representatives of 
labour with a broad unuerstanding of their Job and tha 
willingnasa to concede and try to reach an understanding 
with respect to labour; and I think they have done an 
excellent Job. I approached, on the other hand, rapres- 
anatives of management ana secured panels of names from 
them; and I alao can say that the naoas that I selected 
from these panala have been fine men ruily conscious of 
their respouaibilities to the oanagamant of labour, and 
alao have done a fine job. 

I will go this far» to say this, that I do not 
believe that thare is a group of man who knew mora about 
oanagamant of labour and Labour relations, or wno have 
had more to do with it; and I aa not willing to ooncada 

- see - 

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to 9oaXJO'iS.. -^sii 

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isr J QD fltfl i on.. . aJiw 06 ot ©> 

- 693 - 9-6-45 

Mr. Dftl«7 

that th«r« is a Board In Ottawa that can sat aaida the da- 
olalooB of this Board, with proper Juagmant. Thasa nan In 
Ontario ara oloaa to the paopla, thay maat tham •yftj day 
and disousa the varioua problana. 

■hen thia Board mas firat bet up, thia Houae will 
recall that thara waa nuoh oritioiaa of P. C. 1003. 
Naturally that had to work. There were statements nada 
right in this House that it would never work. 1 felt at 
that time that these regulations possibly could be mada 
to work, if there waa a sense of fairness and a willingness 
on the part of the Board who were responsible for Inter- 
prating those regulations flexibly. I spoke to the 
Chairman when 1 asked him if he would accept the Chairman- 
ahlp of this board, and he pointed oat, us we had found 
out from discussions with Labour members at this Housa, 
and to discuss at Ottawa, that some of these clausaa may 
be difficult to make operate. And 1 asked this Chairman, 
woo pointed these things out to ma again, ** Ihat would your 
attitude ba when acting as Chairman of this Board, would 
you adopt an attitude, because there were some clauaes ther* 
la which you and some labour leaders do not entirely agree, 
would you adopt an attitude that thia Act would not work, 
because you believed it would not work along these lines? 
Will you do your best to make It work?" and he aaid ha 
would. And ha went to the Board and told the Board what 
1 had said, that the best effort should ba aade that 
couxu ue uKiue to make it work and bring about aatiafaotory 
labour ralutionahips. 

For that reaaon, and knowing that the Board haa 
beeu taking that attitude tiiaa and again. 1 have alwaya 
felt aoma concern because some labour leaders have been, •>- 

r.-. r 

nbtaa ifl? 


*. ^i^• .Tito^- 




,G»e.'^ nv£l 

. 694 - S-6-46 

Mr. Ual«y. 

«hll« th« Bon. iMder of th« opposition aays there has 
b««n no orltlolMD, — aaklng sobm orltioiua of tb* Board. 

MA. BDWaHD B. JOIXI/n (York South): But tot 
by M. 

kH. J3ULIJ1: Not by you. fiat all the tiaa I kne« 
that this Board was leaning In fuvour of labour, vhera 
It «u8 posftiDia, Decaaaa tnera hava oean many caaea 
which hava oooa bafora the Board where, if they had joot 
bean utrlvln^ to make this Act work, they would hava 
thrown cases out; anu tney oave given a hearing. 

The Board has been reproached with trying to 
■aka P.O. 1003 work. The stateinent that the Board was 
going to resign wus greatly exaggerated. The Board 
had no such intention and 1 definitely told that to the 
newspapers. The Board had no intention to resign. It 
ij true that tney are dissutiai'iea tout judgments they 
have given have been set aaida at Ottawa. If you are 
close to the situation, you know that. 

The case wuich the leauer or the oppoaition haa 
cited, where aoma eighty per cent of the people working 
In a plant have expressed the desire to have scna collec- 
tive bargaining, and to say, "Ho," because they have not 
had an actual majority, is ridiculooa, — I subsiit It la 
ridiouloua. And, therefore, thia Ontario Labour Halationa 
board have every reason to ba and they are annoyed, 
but they had no thought of realgning, — they are not 
that kind of people. They have had nany vary difficult 
deciaions to i^aka throughout the yeara. They called aa 
ap, and they dlaoussed thia propoaition with aa, and I 
reitarute again that tliera waa no thought of raalgnlAg, 
but juut dlaaatlafaction, "what can we do?" aoA bara la 


WBfl^i I ■^O' 


«oa cri;t » -jcletf * 

or V 


Si • 

- 896 - S-e-4& 

Mr. Dal*7. 

th« auggcstloB I mad« to this Board: Tou haT* for • long 
tlffi* no« b««n operating this Aot. You and I both knew, 
whan «a triad to oparata It, that thera might ba aaand- 
■ants poaalbly daalrabla; but only axparianoa in oparating 
it would dlscloaa thosa waaknaaaaa. Now, if you aa a 
Board will giva your tima and thought to what should ba 
dona to amand this Act ao that It will work, — and do 
not think it has not workad in plenty of casaa, bacausa 
^ara hava bean laany oasas, and I will outline tham to 
you in a few minutes, cases whioh have been satisfactory, -• 
and if you will aubmit to ma what is the unanimous opinion 
of this Board, 1 will go to Ottawa and I will press to 
have these amandments made. 

Ho«, I do not think anything mora can ba dona in 
this House, but that is already in the making; and that 
is two or three days ago, and the Board ia to-day, each 
individual member, concentrating upon what in hia opinion, 
should be amended; and, if put into concrete form, and 
if deamad raaaonable by myself, 1 will go to Ottawa to 
press for aoma aaandmants. 

I think wa are moving aanaly, and we hava, con- 
trary to soma opinions in this Hootfit, azprassad a desire 
to cooperate with the Dominion Government i and I cannot 
aay that they have not baan daairous of cooperating wiili 

Bacauaa I hava read soma place in statistics that 
iu the induatriea of thia country aoma forty-eight par cant 
of the workera are centred in Ontario, I would aay that 
thia Board has had more experience than any other group 
of paopla in the country; and auraly if thay have aonathlng 
ana aound ana reaaooable to offer Ottawa will oartainly 

- ees - 

•w aarlw 

.•VAd »« 


i» ,-■ "^ « ij %i \ 

. 696 - 5-6-45 

Mr. D«l«7. 

f Tery unwls* If th«y do not glTe then •rery eonalder- 
atlon; ftnd I think they will. 

I think, «hll« I am disouaaing thla Board I might 
aa nail olaar up two or thraa other quest iona which hava 
baan brought up in connection with the Board. In tha 
flrat place, it ia mentioned here that it ahould ba a 
full-time Board. Let us Just consider that for a moaant. 
It is certainly Impossible to get three high ranking 
business man to take on the poaition of a full-time Job 
on a Labour Relations Board. They are giying two daya 
a week, and often three, and I have personally sat with 
them on a Sunday in order to get this work dona. 

Now, you aimply could not get the type of man, 
and you have to have them, to take a poaition on u Labour 
Halations Board. 

Who are the representatives on the Board? 
They are high-ranking executivea in the Labour luovement. 
Do you think these men are going to sacrifice everything 
before them in the Labour ilovement, which offers them an 
opportunity to have a full time Job in It, and allow 
thamselTea to be cornered down into the Labour Relationa 
Board? It la aimply not possible to have them on a full- 
time Job. 

I think it is not necessary to keep harping apon 
a full-time Labour Helationa Board; it Is getting ridi- 

Since the inception of the Board, in 1944 to 
/ebruary the 28th, 1945, four hundred and twenty-nina 
petitiona and applioationa were filed with the Board. 
Two hundred ano eighty-aeven out of thaa have bean ooa- 
pleted. Appllcationa for oonoillation aarvlcaa, one 
hundred and twenty-eight. Batabllahaant of grievanoa 



a su 



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- 897 - 5->e-40 

Mr. DAlaj. 

proo«dur«, thr««. L«av« to piro8«out«, nlnt. Uls- 

c«ll«Q«ous, two. Eaurlnss and continuations of baar- 

laga vara hald In thraa hundrad and alxty-ona eaaaa. 

Ona hundrad and flfty-tlirea oartlflcatas aara grantad. 

Nlnaty-saven applications for conciliation aarTlcaa vera 

rafarred to tha Ulnlstar of Labour; and thraa i^pllea- 

to prosecute 
tlone for leava/were made, two of which wr* vlthdravn 

and ona dlamlsaed. Thirty-three applications for iesTa 

to appeal to the National Board were heard. 

Sixty petitions f or oertlficatta vere referred to a referee 

for Inquiry and report. 

I can say to you to-daj that this weak every 
case that Is before that Board, that la ready for hear- 
ing, vill be on the agenda. This Board is absolutely 
up to date on their work. So, what Is the sense of 
talking about a full-time Board, when there Is absolutely, 
up until the present time, no necessity for 1%, and 
absolutely no possibility of getting a personnel to 
■in itr 

AS 1 say, thiu Board loeets at least tiD days a 
weak, three and four daya In aoma weeka, and the Nat- 
ional Board meets every other week or possibly a day or 

1 would also like to clear up another que;itlon 
that has been raised here, about the varloua applicants 
who are making applications to tha Board be notified to 
coma to the Board at ten o'clock In the morning, and aoaa- 
tlaas they have to sit there several hours. 

I have given a great deal of consideration to 
tliat, and have discussed it with the Board aaveral times; 
and It Is a Tary difficult thing to correct. Cases slated 


8 7 ..■ 








- 898 - 3-8-46 

Mr. l>al«7. 

to b« hMrd by tut Board for fn o*olo«k, and It la 
oonsid«r«d, •ceordiz^ to tli« b«st of thtlr opinloA, 
tbdt thMt otta* will takt an hour, or mfb* t«n «lDttt«t. 
Bol, for Tarious raaaona, and I will aay again aoMt* 
tlaaa daa to tba lagal opinion they haTa thara, ttiat 
caaa takaa two or thraa or four houra. Thay thought 
thay could complata that oaaa in an hour, or It nay 
ba thay thought It would ba Just a brief hearing and 
It would ba adjourned. How eould thay apaoa 
their oasea ao that there would be no waiting? 

Souetlffles the very highest type of legal 
opinion will be coming In to represent the union or 
the aanagefflent, and thay expect that It «L 11 take aoaa 
tlaa. But, acmetlmas. In five minutes It la all OTer; 
and, If they had no one notified to be there, the Board 
would be kept tliere waiting. I do not think It la a 
aerlous case that people can complain about, If they 
ceae there and have to wait for aoma tlaa* We have 
fixed up the quarters for them and now they have a quite 
oojhfortable place to wait In. 

■ov, aa to unnecesbary delay In giving Jud^Mat 
or In passing their rullnga. There la a good deal of 
misunderstanding In connection with that. I have In- 
vaatlgatad many oaaea, and often there la a great deal 
under the surface that haa to be Isreatlgated by the Board 
before they can give a ocapatant ruling on a qmastlon. 
A oasa was brought to ■• vhara I waa told tiMra waa only 
the union and the employer, who were both In agreement 
that the union ahould be certified; and that there waa 
great crltioiai of the Board because it took aavaral 
weaka to eomplata that oasa. But, actually, whan you 

,fjo! ojs .fi«is6ianon 

;fad* ,»i»flJ svan yori 

XBOi li 10 (OuOi i saao ;ts<lJ •;ts.i :}Xi/oo \91ii 

bns antiBsrf "^ - .i iRi/f ad Mifow :t i td-'Uicrit varil acf 
0QAJ& 'y;anj x>iiJ09 woli .jdoaiiiot^^ 9<^ ^•'•^ 
?3isl;fl8v on ecf frluow eioii^f iutii oa aasfio 'xlaii:^ 

lo aoixtii on J juausiqc : oj nx •^. ^ 

•OQ8 a>l0^ XX Jar il iRiiS ;;r9aqxe ' naoi si 

{•SSTO XXa al ii eaiunlxn av/^ ,_,„.. .A,n^.t 

biooQ. eAi (aioXiJ ao oj UBiliioa aao 01: I/ua; \^£^ ,ouit 

a al ^1 ^IdJ .tiam •fMt tqt ?v 

Yari" ti ,tuo'.. ..., .ulJ aaao 

aviiix dU . aaix^ •»: la ei" 
•ilDp a aTBii y^^^ v 

i'aaioaiJifC aaXTi 
lo XAa6 doos .33^: 

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Q - 899 • S-8-45 

Ur. iMl«7. 

got tlx« faota, there vere t.«o uniune la tiittt partloalar 
oas«, end both of them were claialog that otrtain groups 
of inuiTlduals ehould be in one organlxetion or the otli«; 
mna tne boera oea to aeclde to whieh orgaaizetlon the 
groups should be attached; and that took oonalderable 

I think we would get along better In our labour 
relations work If these criticisms were not made which are 
uiifounded but were Investigated fully before they wers 

(Pisge 900 follows) 


IBltJOlS OW<f 919W 9101. 

aquota nlB" fi9m •a«o 


a aqii' 

•19W yeilJ 


( a*N, 

UR. ARTTIUB flLLIAUS (Ontario) : In yoxir r«mark« «r« you 
laplTlng tht stattnenta that hav* bean oada by tha hon. aaabara 
of this Houaa regarding tha Labour Relationa* Board have been 

MR. DilST: No, I was not, beoauaa, in thii particular 
oaae, from four of his colleagues I got the eTldenoe, and hand- 
ad it rignt to him, and ahowed him where he waa abaolutely wrong, 
and hia faoa waa qiiita red. He realized hla critioiam waa en- 
tirely unfounded. But, that vaa not a manbar of thla House. I 
know the i;;;n. oeaber for jntario (Mr. 7/illiaffls) has been quite 
bitter on ooeaalons in his oondamnation, you might say, of this 
particular Board. 

UR. IILLIAUS: "CrltleisiT is a better word. 

MR. DALEY: It really paaaed that point. 

MR. A. A. CASSEIJIAII (Niplaalng) : You are going to gat 
into an argunent, firat thing you know. 

MR. DALIT: I am not ad Terse to that when I know I am on 
Bound ground. 

I do not think the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. WlHlaBS) 
would object to my telling this, but he wrote to me once, end it 
was quite bitter, -quite vicloua remarka in this letter, and I 
read it very carefully, and I called my secretory, and I said, 
"In reply, after carefully reading your letter of such and such a 
date, my firat impulse was to tell you to go to hell, but" i s&id, 
"on further thought," — the hon. member can correot bm if I as 
wrong, — 

MR. WILLIAMS: You are perfectly right up to ttie present. 

UR. DALIY: I will be Tery kind to you. I said, "on 
further thought, knowing you, as I do, to be a kindly, friendly 
sort of parson, whose only idea in life is to do sosie thing for 
the working people of this province, I will rasarra tha pleasure 


• BflQ 


•^ Jl fiBai 


- 901 - 8-8.4S. 

of telling you where to gp xuitll aone later date." 

I aooetlaea wlah, nov, In polltlca, that I had a 
little more ability to dislike people, but I find It Tery 
difficult to dislike people, eTen the hon. aaaber for 
Ontario (Mr. nilllaos), although be does carry am over tha 
coals. I will say thla In his defence, he raises a question, 
and he will have much to aay about it, no doubt, but in the 
opinion of the Bocurd aoma of the oaaea that the hon. meober 
for Ontario haa brought before that Board have been moat 
difficult. I will say that. They haTS bean most difficult 
oases* Many cases come, and are quite easy to aandle, but 
the hon. menber for Ontario has been vmfortunate, {or prob- 
ably the people whom he represented were fortune ta he had 
those cases,) In having very difficult cases before the 
Board. But, I must say, his attitude, at tinea, aa has bean 
evidenced in this House, is not conduclTe to friendly lela- 
tlona. I think you will agree with that. But, I think, Mr. 
Speaker, that that Just about eoTtra what I have to say in 
eonnection with this matter. 

Now, while there never was a thought of resignation 
on the part of the Boerd, I do not aay aome individual mmj 
not have expressed the opinion he waa going to quit. I 
would not say that, but never waa there an indication of tha 
Board*a intention to resign, and the Board haa now concen- 
trated its efforts to designing ways and maana of asking for 
awendmanta to thla Act for Improvementa , if they can have an 
Improvement, and I think all the people of this province, 
particularly the labouring people and the reprcsentatlvea of 
Labour, are both very grateful to the work that the Board haa 
acooiq>llahed during the laat year. 

MR. JOSEPH B. SALSBZHG (St. Andrew): Ur. Speaker, I 
agree tnat tne matter brought before the Houae by the Leader 

B b.. 

■\ja8V ' attorn e 

-(Jot c %o] 

n«9Cr BBti &B 

al xe: 

Ysm iBub 

9d} ■: 

a aBv 

- 902 - 3-8t4S 

Of th« Opposition (Ur. Jolllffo) is on« of great laportaae* 
and of public xirganey. I think that it la ao l^^ortaat 
that parhapa tha Spaakar vaa fully Juatlflad In Ignoring and 
winking at all tha rulaa and allowing tha hon. lllnlatar ta 

ICR. SPEAKBfi: That la juat anough. I will glTa tha 
wldaat paaalbla latltuda to avary hon. mambar In thla Uouaa, 
but tha hon. Ulnlatar (Mr. Dalay) aakad for tloM, and wha& 1m 
azoaadad his tlaa I draw hla attantion to It. Thara li no 
winking at rulaa. 

UB. SAI^BEBQ: 1 do not aaa why you ahould ba wrath- 
ful becauaa I thought you wara Juatlflad, and I do not think 
It la dlaraapaotful on the part of any hon. mambar to agraa 
with tha Spaaktr. You know what I naan. 

Ml. SPEAKER: You hava not aald It. 

MR. SILSBSBC: Tha unfortunate thing la, tha Speaikar 
waa aTldantly lulled by tha long apaaoh that preoeadad mlna, 
and did not haar what I said. I aald I agraa with the Speaker. 

Mr* Speaker, I waa Impreaaed with the fact that the 
hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) waa perhaps better prepar- 
ed to deal with an unexpected emergency laaue than he waa for 
a long tins In thla Houae. 

MB. DALBY: It waa not unexpected by oe. 

MR. SALSBSRO: So he waa aware of the eaarganej, whlah 
apeaka well for the hon. Minister of Labour, except, of course, 
that only a week ago yesterday I, considering my task and my 
duty, apeke of thla same probleA, and I warned the House of 
the Bountlng crisis of Labour relatlona in thla proTlnee, and I 
vaa sniped at and criticized by the Prloa Minister and by other 
hon. ■aabara of the Covamaiant for taking tine, unneceaaarily, 
of thla Houae. The record will prow that, and it la regrettable 
that only a week elapaed to reveal the crlals to be eren more 




■■ ' ..SUB 

)h.T aqAaivq tmdt 




?.o©d Xwl 




I biia ,®o-' 



- 903 - 8-8-45. 

■•rlout than I saw it and than I pietxirtd it btfora thla 
Houaa a vaak ago yaaterday. It ravaalad a laok of ^ppracla- 
tion of the aarlousQeaa on th« part of tha GOTammant» aa ra- 
Taalad In tha Spaaoh from tha Throna and on tha part cC tha 
hon. Mlnlatar (Mr. Dalay) latar on. 

Ur. Spaakar, I fully agrea with tha Intarpratatlon 
that tha hon. Laadar of tha Oppoaitlon [Ux, Jolllffa) gara of 
thla ruling of tha deolalon of tha liatlonal Labour Board. I 
agrea with that, and I hava Inpllad this might ba azpaptad. 
In fact, you will recall, lilr. Speaker, that a weak ago I stat- 
ed the situation is becoming so critical tha mimto«T» of tha 
Board were thinking of resigning, which was denied In tha 
Bouse. That was a week ago yeaterday. 

MR. DALS7: It still la. 

MR. SALSBSRO: Wall, I did not give the statamant to 
the hon. meaba rs yesterday. I think It came from the hon. 
Labour Minister* 8 office, - not frcm me. 

I do want to say thia, that the crisis that has bean 
brought to a head by the decision of tha National Labour 
Relationa* Board reveals exactly what I pointed out a weak ago. 
fa are confronted with organized opposition through collectlTa 
bargaining in this prorlnoa on the part of certain Tory re- 
actionary eiq>loyer8. 

HR. R. BDBB8 TA^TLOB j( Huron ) : I would lik» the hon. 
mesiber to ay right (Mr. Salsberg) to name soaa of those Tory 
reactionaries that are blocking Labour. He made that accusation 
in this House a weak ago, and I feel that he gets the greatest 
"kick" out of it by giving nonentities, and doing a diaservloe 
to Labour and to this country, as a whole. I would like him ta 
name one Tory reactionary or raforaad Liberal aiq)loyar that is 
adverse to collaotive bargaining. 

oi ^n9st9^c 

n«9(f sod ^Ba:f als. 

-61 t1 

..-<--..-n ^..^. ,j+ -v ^ *r!JOiS -i.; 

eoxv" =»- - Sj .; ^, 
Bl taA^ 1BXC 

- 904 - S-e-49. 

MR. SALaBIRO: I will, In du« tiat, pr«8tnt Xh» Hout«, 
on th« request of th« hon« namber and th« Toronto *01ob« and 
Hall", • full Hat of auob aaployvra, but I muat aay, — 

Iffi. QALSY: Juat ona. 

UR. SALSBERO: I will glva you mora than ona. 

(Pa«a Mo. 905 followa.) 


has ©<J Bdam srr eric 

.•J30 osxIS- ei'. 

- 90S - ^8-45 

Mr. 3alsb«rg 

I juat want to say, the hon* aaBbar to ny left has 
axciudad tha monopoly to raaotlonary Tory amployara, but tkara 
are otbera wko hava tkan* Tha raaaon why thasa appeals 

have been made to the National Labour Relations Board oon« 
tlnuously is because thoaa employers are datermload to 
obatruot oollective bargaining and the carrying througli 
of the spirit of 1003 and tha intent of that Act, aa far 
aa poaaible for them to do^ an:l they are disaatiafiad vlth 
the decisions that the Ontario Board brings down. Thay 
appeal againat one deciaion after another. They drag 
negotiationa ou" aa long aa poaslbla, they stall and frua- 
trata, and by so doing, they provoke labour into aotlona 
that they do not care to partlclratft In. I want to aay 

that the preparation of 1003, I inzTiK, Ur^ Speaker, alao 
bears the imprint of a man who is now the national president 
of the party that is the governing r>a:*ty In this House, I 
think Ur. McTague had something to do wim that. That 

ahould not be forgotten. 

I want to point out this, that the National Labour 
Relations Board has done sooetning for which we cannot pos- 
sibly find Justification or excuse and we must protest againat 
it, we must demand that they review thet decision again, that 
they re-examine it and that they reopen it and bring down an 
entirely different decision upholding the decision of tha 
Ontario Board. But, it would be wrong If tha hon. Uiniatar 
of Labour (Mr. Daley) created the impreasion hare that tha 
National Labour Relatione Board doea not include labour 
repreaantativea. It alao haa labour rapraaantatlvaa in 
It axtd I, without any pleesure, I asaure you, would like to 
know how the labour mambera in the National Labour Relations 
Board voted in thia inatanoa. I aa not aura yat, I have 
not got tha facta, but I do know one nembar of that Board 

- 906 - 3-8-46 

Mr. 3al«b«rs 

Is kaad of tke C«iMdlan Congrats of Labour. I do not know 
bow Ifr* lloakar TOtaA. I do not think that lion, aaabars of 
tke Opposition would ba praparod to oondaam lilB alona, with 
parhaps th« majority of tbe Board, without first asoartainlng 
how ha Totad on thia quastlon, and 1 do not think thay aaot to 
do that. 

MR. JOLLIPFB: It Is not a quastlon of persooalltiaa 
at ail. 

MR. 3ALSBSBG: If I raaall tha apaaoh of tha hon. 
Laadar of the Opposition (Mr« Jolllffa), ha spoka of tha 
Board as a who3 « . I think that la rigat, and I do not dif- 
fer with UlB on tha daoision they rendered, but I would point 
out I do not know how Mr» Mosher anl Mr^ Molyneaux voted on 
this question and I thlrk the hon. Leader of the Oppoaition 
la aa aware as I aia that Mr. Moshar la one of the most 
prominent supporters of nls party and trade unions to-day. 
3ince ke voted for that decision, regardless of his attituda 
towards tha C.C.F., I would condemn that decision aa tha 
hon. Leader of the Opposition is doing. I would not 
hesitate to condemn that decision if Mr* Mosher and 
Mr. Molyneaux voted for it, but I do not know, and I want 
to find out how they voted. I am not condemning the Labour 
Relations Boara as a whole without Tirst finding out aow tha 
Labour members voted. I hope they were in tha Binority, and 
if they were not, they should reaaJve the aaaia traataant froa 
ua as the majority of tha Board. 

Tha important thing now ia not ao much to oondaan ona 
board or another, the important thing to oonoluda is that tha 
criaia of labour relatione in thla province, and elsewhere, 
is mounting much to our regret. 

What is naoaaaary ia to aaak lflq>rovaBant aBaodsanta of 
P.O. 10U3 and, If you plaaaa, of tha order gOTarning wagaa, 9384, 

- «07 - 3-&-45 

Itr. 3«lsb«rc 

beeauae tke daclslon of tlM War Labour board in tlia oaaa of 
the Canada Starcb Company oocatitutaa a throat, induatrlally, 
and conatltutea an attaok upon tbt linng atandarda of 
workera in th s country than la totally unvarrantad and 
uncalled for by energenoy and war eeonoay. ffa muat aaak 
to bring abuut an aaandoent of 1003 and 9884 ao aa to aaka 
It lapoasible for react lotiary aBrployera to brin^ about the 
provooationa and threata that they are bringing about. 

I think further, Mr. SpetikAr. If it were at all 
poaslbld *' and I know from proviuus experience you cannot 
move BOtlona or. ,* motion to adjov^- wut» If it vera 
poaaible I would move that va in tbia Laglalature call 
upon the latlonal Labour Relations Board to reopen thla 
eaae and uphold the oorreet deciulcr of the Ontario Labour 
Board, and I believe that this discusQlon, and I agree It 
vaa neoaaaary^ will contribute towards the realization of 
the neoeasity for improved labour relationa, federally and 
provincially, and as a reault of the disouaslon we will 
achieve such improved legislation at an early date, nation- 
ally and provincially» to do away with the defeota wo are 

I fully agree with the Drerious apeaker; I only 
regret to say ihat by the i.ui:e tne Hon. Minister of Labour 
(Ur. Daley) finiahed I waa not eartain that ha vaa certain 
of any eaiargenoy aa he displayed In the first ramarks of 
hla speeoh. I, therefore, want to conclude with what the 
hon. Ulnlster of Labour, I think, did not say, that thera la 
an emergency and this House will be doing its duty by 
seeking to reopen the case and awaking to bring about iar 
proved lagialation in this House at thla aaaaion and an 
improTaaent \r, federal lagialation. 

- 908 - 9-&-45 

Ur. Klllard 

MR. CHARLBS H. KILLARD (York Wast): Mr. SpMkar 
and hoD. neBbars of tha Housa» aa moat of you \cuom, I hava 
recently returned froB attending a world labour oonfaranee. 
One of the things that was particularly notioaabla at that 
conlerence «aa tbat In recent years at least it has been tha 
atated pclloy of tha British £overnnant to anoourage oollaotiva 
barp^ilnlng. partioularly In the Colonies, and we had at that 
labour conference evidence of a labour aoYeoent emerging from 
all the British Colonies. My purpose In mentioning that la 
to show that this jtidmient rendered by the National far 
Labour Board . soln^; to ciiitace against tha natural evolu- 
tionary development of the labour moveaiant In thia country. 

I do rot believe that; the nrovlous speaker (Mr. 
Salsberg) was quite fair in more, or xass white- wusning the 
government at Ottawa. 

MR. 3ALSBBPG- ?^r. Sreolcer on a nolnt of order I 
aubmit that there was nothing In what I salU that could ba 
interpreted as an attempt to white-wash anybody. On tha 
contrary I eni'>>^''5»l«ed with almost undue repetition the 
oaoessity of maintaining the federal labour regulations, 
which is the responsibility of the federal government. I 
did not attempt in the slightest to whlte-waah any govern- 

MR. MILULRD: Uy reference was to the fact that tha 
previous speaker drew particular attention to the board aa 
auch, even singling out for mention Indlvlduala on tha board 
and wanted to know how they voted on thia quaatlon. 

MR. 34LdBSRG: On another point of order, Mr. Speaker, 
I did not want to know. I «aa maraly ate ting — 

MR. SPHIXSR: Order. 

MR. 3AL3BBRa: ^^^ « ;>tate my point of order, Mr. 

. 909 - 3-8-40 

Mr. Millard 

t; I got your point. 
MR. 3ALSBIRG: If you «111 penal t ma, Mr. 9p«alc«r — 
MR. 3PBAXIR: Oo ataeud. 
MR. SALSBBRG: In my renarks I merely auggeatad that 

It perhapa would be unjustifiable to attack the whole board 
without Knowing now iha labour loambara on It voted. I do 
not know how they voted, but I did not aak any hon.member 
of the Houae for inforrnntlcn on to how the labour nemhera of 
the uoara vocea. I do nut they know* 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I do not think I can let thla paaa a 
second time. I did not make any attack on the National War 
Labour Board. I made an attack upon Its decision. If tba 
hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) Is going to be ao 
touchy about the remarks of the hon. member for Tork ffeat 
(Mr. Millard), and he has risen to polnta of order twice 
already, may I say categorically that I did not attack in 
any way the members of the Rational War Labour Board, for 
whom personally I have great respect. But I did attack a 
nonsensical decision of the board and an order In coioncll 
which obTlously would need to be amended by the authorltlea 
at Ottawa. 

MR. MILLARD: The point I wanted to arrive at waa 
thla. I wanted to draw attention to the kind of order In 
council this la, which la the governing order under whloh 
the National War Labour Board made Its decision. I have 
no healtanoy In believing that the oauae of the trouble 
Ilea In the fact that the board deemed It necesaary undar 
the order in council by which they are governed to make 
the decision they have made In this case. It la not a 
natter of how the board or any aaabar of the board voted 
on thla question. 

That brings me to the point that last year wa paaaad 

- fllO - 3-8-45 

Mr. HI Hard 

legislation baaad on that ordar In eounoll» and it was 
the contention of the ■MBhars of the Oovemmant here 
that «e ought to do our beat to make It work. Wa 

hare It from the Mlnlater of Labour (Mr. Daley) here 
to-day that the Ontario board has aonsolentlously tried 
to make P.C. 1003 operate suoeesafuily, and I believe that 
they hare too, 

but tne e7i<ienoe orougjQt ceiore the House to-day 
by ny oolleague the leader of the Opposition (Mr*Jolllffe) 
shows thit Y*.C. 1003 Is not operating, and therefore I 
suhDit it 13 *-^e prerogative ot tens House to reconsider 
whether or not we are prepared to go on and ask the Board 
appointed by the Minister of Labour under the authority of 
this House to administer an Act that is not sound and that 
is bound to cause hardships and create Industrial dia* 
turbanoes In thla country. 

Somebody has said -- I belleTe It was the Minister 
of Labour himself — that there is no Intention on the part 
of the Board to resign. That may be true regarding the 
Board. But I oannot comprehend that a man representing 
labour faithfully and honestly could rtfiain a member of a 
board that under this ruling simply beoomes a rubber stamp 
for a board at Ottawa that la making the ordara under a 
faulty order In council. 

I say In all seriouaness and sincerity that I 
am rather surprised — and I aay thla in a moat friendly 
faahion — that the Minister of Labour, having auch a full 
knowledge of the situation aa iie aos had did not hiaaelf 
bring this Batter before tha Rouse. It is a very serioua 
■atter end one that la going to involve a lot of people » 
and unless we move* and move oonstrucbAvexy , diffioultiea 
are bound to arlae. I could not understand that labour 

- oil . S-6-48 

Ur. Millard 

Ban of the oallbra aantlonad by the Mlnlstar of Labour 
would remain oanbers of a board under the intolerable 
conditions and precedent established by this decision 
of the national Board. They have written into this 
decision with which none of us can agrea the word 
"substantial* as a Joker. Who is going to decide what 
la a substantial aajorlty? 

On the other hand, the Ontario board has nada a 
reasonable interpretation of the order in council. They 
hafe stated that when a substantial majority of the workera 
in an enterpri decide that they want some fonn of col- 
lective bargaining they should have an opportunity of 
deciding In a run-off vote which one of one or more organ- 
izations they prefer for that purpose* 

I suggest that we try to find some way of bringing 
our representations on this question to Ottawa, that we 
should not leave it to the Uinister of Labour, though I aa 
quite prepared to admit his discretion in the matter. But 
we should not leave to him the responsibility of going to 
Ottawa. 1 think that there should be representations made 
to Ottawa with the full backing of thla House. I can tell 
the Houee now that the labour members of the National War 
Labour Beard, regardless of how they voted on this par- 
ticular question, are in favour of vezy necessary and 
fundamental amendments being nada to the order in council 
because I have received that word since this debate started 
this afternoon. I think that we have te find sobs way of 
■aklng our vlewa known to Ottawa and daaaodlng that the 
order in council be amended. 

I want to say further that to my own personal knov* 
lodge the Bombora of the National War Labour Board and the 
Bombers of the government at Ottawa have full knowledge of 

• 912 - 5-&-46 

Ur. MllUrd 

what labour's poaltion xs in regard to ttaa neoaaaary aMend- 
■antSy and thera la nothing to atop than, now tbat thla 
natter has eoota to a head, from revoking thla daolalon 
and maicing tne neoesaary amandnanta, ao that the decision 
af the Ontario board vlll hold. 

I should like to say one word In regard to the 
point raised by the Uliuister of Labour regarding tne tina 
element. I have been one of those, the llinlater of 

Labour wiT i recall, vhn od a number of occaalona hare 
been pressing for a ruil-tlma board ar a board that will 
give more tlm ind attention ta these mattera. 

The decision which now brings the matter ta a head 
waa the result of a vote taken almost seven months ago, 
when 65 per cent in one case, and 68 per cent in the other 
oaae, of the emplayees voted that they wanted oolleetira 
bargaining. In spite of that fact aeven months have 
elapsed and no collective bargaining agreement has baan 

I remind the hon. members of the House that these 
ere the same mine owners, the same employers who have had 
ttae protection flrat of all of llr. Humphrey llitchall and 
aecondly of the hon. member for Slgin (llr. Hepburn) and 
his government. They are the aama employers who have 
triad in every way possible to block oollaotlTe bargain- 
ing in thaae mlnea. 

Now we have the declalon by the National War 
Labour Board that labour, if it wanta to have recognition 
by the democratic procaaa of taking a vote, muat have a 
aubatantlal majority. If there la any quaatlon about it 
the board may consider, on the application of the employer. 
If you pleaae, whether a vote will be taken in any altua- 

• •" ' MP. IClll«r4 

I auggast Isj the hoo. BtalMra of tills Boua« tkat ihia 
■atter is of aufflolant lisporttnos tkat «e mutt find aoB« 
way of iMviBg Ottawa moTa oa tj&la quaatioa, aod aova Unadlata* 
lyi aad altkout apaaklng in aay partlaaa aaaaa or naking aay 
pelltloal attaek aad with all due regard to tke manbara of tha 
group to my left I aay tlut tbe GcvtiracaBt at Ottawa la 
raapoaalbla -- the GoTerrunant at Ottawa and act tha parlla* 
■aat "- tacauae it «a<i riae OoTernment that paaaad tha ordar 
la counc^. That ordar la oouaoH auat ba aoendad» aad 

the reaponalbllity for tnst Kust :>a taKea by the Covenunaat 
at Ottawa ard >^" nobody alsa. And so I auggest to tha 
Biaabara of thltf House that wa Imcediataly nove to find acaa 
«ay of bringing that about. I suggest that In all aarloua- 
aass and slnoarlty. We Bust act ou thla siatter at onoa 
because labour oanaot afford and txxe country cannot afford 
to haTe any crisis develop thst will stop production la 
this country at this critical tina. 

MR. BEBTRAU S. LXAVSNS (Woodbine): On one or two 
occasions we have heard the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salaberg) refer in House to reactionary Tory 
amployerat but all the reactionary aa4)loyar8y I might tell 
him, are not Tories. 

May I aiao poza;; oui that i-.C* 1003 was supported 
on the floor of this House in the last saaaloa by the hon. 
iMBber for 3t . Aadrev, and Mr. Humrthrey Mitchell, the 
federal minister of lacour, who appears to oe a very 
elose bedfellow of the hon. nanbar for St. Andrew, la in 
no small moesure reaponflible for what haa hap^>aBed la 
regarc to tne daciaion or the fait:.^nal War Lai^uur Board. 

MR. SAL3HSR0: Oa a polat of ordar, Mr. Spaakar, — 

MP. T.yjiVT^NS'- I en apeaklag now. 

Ui. SFUXiJih: Tha hon. naabar (Mr« LaaTana) auat 



-ax 131 




51 « ..TllXl 


■aia Off 

- 914 - 3-&-i5 

Mr. 3p««k6r 

take the rvp the seme es etvrybody else. 

MR. 3AL3BBP0: I ea Tery pertlouler about ay bed- 
fellows. The hon. meaber suggested that the federal 
■Ittlster of labour Is my bedfellov. I want to state 
that laat is entirely untrue. He was not eTea a member 
of my party but he. was fomerly a meaber of the Social 
Demooratlo oarty, of which the hon. member's party is a 

MR. J0LLI7FB: Oh, no. 

MR. LKATSIG: If that was a point of order, I 
ean see no por.v in it. 

MR. SPBAKD^: Let us ftlck to policies and leave 
out personalities. ', 

MR. LSAVENS: I would like to say that the Minister 
of Labour in the federal gOTernn.ent is the man who said he 
would follow his skipper blindly and take his orders from 
him. It might be well for the hon. member for St. Andrew 
to remember that In 1917 when Mr. Mackenzie King was work- 
ing for the Rookefeller Foundation and was asked how to 
handle organized labour at the time of a strike in the 
United States he said that the best way vaa to recognise 
them in principle 'but to make them Impotent in practice. 
Tkat is a statement which those on the Labour-ProgresslTe 
benches should consider before too closely associating 
themselTes with the Liberal party beoause that was a 
statement that was directly contrary to the best inter- 
•sts of labour. 

MR. ROBSRT H. CARLIN (Sudbury): Mr. Speaker, I 
would like to make a few obserTatlona on this subject 
beeauae it ooaes so close to myself. Apart from my 
Interest in the general labour movement I hare a special 
Interest in this organisation inasmuch as I happen to be 


J' -•.•;v; : ail J SAlii bij 

« ex Y't 

q fi e*« it«ri 



act: qA3 e. 



XX/uQiijL e 






- »10 - 5-6-45 

Mr. CttrllB 

a B«Bb«r or it. I quote from thti Reasons for Jud^snt 

of tbe Wartime Labour Relations Board (Hstional) In tha 

case of International Union of Mlna, Mill and abalter 

Workers and Wrlght-BargreaTea Mines Limited (Klrkland 


"Tae tao u£.lonfl and bar- 
gaining repress ntatlTes cannot be 
certified uiuesa and uAtil a 
ma.^orlty of the emplojrees affected 
decide to loin one union or the 
other il the two unions 

Join togetnar in electing bar- 


I an not unmir.cirui or KlrKiand Lakce in 1941 » 
when we first .tempted to negotiate with the oparators 
at Kirkland take. At that time after making contact 
alth the federal gOTernment at Ottawa, the Industrial 
Relations Inyeatlgating Cossnlttee, the ohaimian of which 
was then the Minister ".!* Labour Hon, Humphrey Mitchell, 
took a trip to Kirkland Lake and in the two or three days 
that Mr. Mitchell was there he attempted to sell us what 
is known to ererybody in Canada as the Kirkland Lake 
formula or the Humphrey Mitchell formula to glorify 
company unions, and I aee a likeness in this decision to 
the recomBendations that were made by the federal Miniatar 
of Labour, the Hon. Humphrey Mitchell. I suggest thst it 
is a Tery serious matter and if it were to be put into 
affect to-morrow it would destroy all our existing labour 

MR. LSSLIB B. BLACKWBLL (Attorney Oenaral): Mr. 
Speaker, from this discussion so far one important point haa 
emerged that should be crystal clear to thla Rouse snd that 
is that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) in 
iuiroduclng this question took exception, and properly so, 
to a deeidion of the Rational War Labour Board. That 






- 916 - 3-8-45 


vas really the l8«u« that was ralaad har« by hln. Ha ar- 
praaaad the rlaa that ha vaa hopaful that upon tnat rather 
almpla issue being raised thla Houaa would be brought into 
unanimous agreement with his attitude towarda that decision. 

May I at thla point make the obaervatlon that on tne 
aimple principle of that issue the unanimous agreement of 
this House is now apparent, with the exception of the hon. 
■enber for Elgin (Ur. Hepburn) and the group he leads In 
this Legislature. 

As tc the course that has been followed by the 
Minister of Lab .r (Mr. Daley) on that rather simple issue 
raised by the Leader of the Opposition may I say as a member 
of this gOTeriment that it gave me a sense of pride to hear 
him say in such simple and direct language, which must have 
Impressed this Legislature, that practical ooxnmonsense de- 
manded that we should unanimously try to rectify thla 

Information as to the decision of the National War 
Labour Board has been in the hands of our Minister of 
Labour for a few days. Our Minister of Labour, on receipt 
of the decision of the National Board, had two courses open 
to him. He might have immediately brought the matter to 
this Legislature, with all the political advantage that he 
might have attempted to derive for the Progressive Conser- 
vative party by making a political issue of this matter 
with the national gOTernment at Ottawa. However, with a 
sense of responsibility he accepted the situation that we 
have in this province an Act which makes P.C. 10c;i eriectlva 
in this province for all war industry and nakas it so far 
effective as to so-called peacetime industry under our 
board which has been appointed and has been administering 
the order as s result of a written agreanant with the 

- dl9 - 







ibK iflnoi;J-flH ©ri ;oiefo©5 





c. DT^OI^ 3fl , 





. 917 - 3-8-46 


Liberal goTernaant at Ottawa. 

I think uBdar those olrcunstanoas that a oonsolant- 
loua hiiniatar of Labour in mis proviuoa o«as aoiM oDxlgation 
to the conduot of labour relation* generally and to the 
•aenltlea between gOTernnienta ehloh would lead him before 
ralalng this queatlon as a political Issue here to take the 
proper steps to reconcile the Biatter In • businesslike eey 
in the Interests both of labour and management, and thet la 
the oourse he is following. 

The aituation, after all, is not difficult to undei^ 
stand. Nelth<»** the Ontario board needs to be brought into 
this question as e matter of guilt or innooecce, nor do the 
BWDbera of that board individually, and the same remark is 
applicable to the Ottawa board. There is no necessity of 
bringing into question the good faith or bad faith of that 
board or of the representatives upon it of management or 
labour. All that, I submit, Mr. Speaker, would be hazmful 
to the whole question of labour relations not only in the 
province of Ontario but throughout the whole of Canada. 

As the hon. member for York lest ( Mr .111 liar d) hae 
pointed out, the responsibility rests upon Ottawa. It le 
in the hands of the federal Minister of Labour. He is in 
a position, on proper reoonaendatlons being made to his, to 
BUke the necessary reconBendatlon under the 9ar Measures Act 
whereby the necessary amendments can be made to P.O. 1003 
to cure that decision immed lately » if he sees fit. I 
think under those circumstances that the minister of the 
crown who holds the portfolio of Labour In this province 
has the responsibility of making a clYlllsed and decent 
approach to the Minister of Labour at Ottawa, and that the 
vay to do business In this country is not to shower the 
fflBQ you are going to see with abuse before you ^o there. 


- 916 - 3-0-4C 


I ooiiuD«&d th9 Klnlstcr of Labour (Ur. Daley) upon th« approach 
ha has auggaattd. 

Bafora sitting down I would Ilka to ask tha hon. 
mambar for Slgln (Mr, Bapburn) whatbar ha has an attltuda on 
this quastlon, althar as ragards hloisalf or bis group. 

UR. U. P. HEPBURN (llgln): Mr. Spaakar, I did not 
Intend to participate in this debate, but I an quite frank 
to say that I agree with the remarks that have been mada 
by the Attorney General (Ur. Blaokwall). This Issue arlaaa 
partly as a reault tf the war and partly as a result of 
duplication of '^rTlces. I concur In the Attorney 
Qeneral*s suggestion that the Minister of Labour (ICr. 
Daley}, who la a very efficient and capable exeeutlve, 
should make the neeaaaary approach to Ottawa, and I be- 
lieve then that thla whole natter can be straightened out. 
So far as my own view Is concerned and I believe the view 
of the group I lead, we share the oplnlona generally ex- 
pressed In this House this afternoon. 

MR. ARTHUR 1IILLIAM3 (Ontario): Mr. Speaker, I am 
glad that the Attorney General did succeed In bringing the 
debate back to the real point at lasue which was raised when 
the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolllffe) asked for leave 
to move the adjournment of the Houae to discuss an urgent 
matter. We have gone quite a diatance afield In diaouaslng 
these thlr.fts. and In doing so soma things have been aaid 
whicn I tninx it is right, and 1 hope you will agree with 
me, Mr. Speeker, for me to correet. 

It Is a very serious thlni^ that a crlsla has bean 
allowed to develop before action was taken. Ilea ana 
intelligent people would teka action before tha orlala 
develops. But it Is true of human beings all through 
history that they aro uaually In a hurry to look the stable 

- 8ie - 

dQBOl I 

3x1 lexlJe 


ina T jtsy 


dairc '^«Bae:x'r 


- 919 - 3-8-45. 

ICr. Willi 

door after th« hort« la stolen. W« need not hmrB been in 
this unfortunate situation to-day If notice had been taken 
and action followed with respect to the things of which 
this House was warned some months a^. However, there 
was a determination then to go on In a sweeping way and 
now we are faced not only with this narticulor situation 
but wiia uie great likelihood of outer similar situations 
arising later on. 

The order In council wos pretty carefully analyzed 
by more than one aember of this ilouse quite a while ago and 
it was agreed t at it was bad — veil, no, they did not like 
to say that it vas coiqpletely bad, hut there were weaknesses 
in it. But now they are willing to use a little stronger 
terms about PrC 1003, and we find the same opinions e:q>ressed 
about it not only in this House, but outside. 

▲ good bit has been said about the Labour Relations* 
Board of Ontario, and with much of what has been said about it 
I agree, but when I found the Uinister of Labour (Ur. Daley) 
spending so much of his time piling up praise after praise 
on the Ontario Board I began to wonder whether he was refer- 
ring to oen or angels. These people, after all, are only 
human, and like all other human beings they make mistakes, 
as I think the hon. member for Elgin (Ur, Hepburn) would be 
the first to admit. We should keep clearly in our minda, 
lest the adulation that has been showered on the Board by 
the Uinister may blind us to some of these things, that the 
Board is doing what it ought not to be doing. We ou^t not 
to believe that this Board is so perfect that we can go 
alonr blithely, only to be pulled up suddenly with a shock 
when another crisis hits ua in the lace. This Board, let 
it be known, notwithstanding all the praise we care to 

. 920 - 3-6-4S 

shover upon it, It aftklng acne awfully painful blundara, 
blundera of Interpretation. In the particular caae Aleh 
the hon. loader of the cippoaitlon brou^t to the attention 
of the House today the Ontario Board took the aenalble 
course. As a matter of fact, the school ehlldron uho have 
been sitting In the gallery tcacy vouxd not hove nesitatdd 
to take the sane oourae iti ich the Board took because it was 
the simple, easy and understondable thing to do. I fail 
to understand for one minute ity the National Board oould 
not determine in simple and easy fashion, as any >of these 
school children could do, i^ether the workers in these two 
mines should have a collective bargaining agency or not* 

( Page 921 follows } 

. 921 - 3-8-49 

Ur. Wllllamt 

Now, I know there ore oenbers In thlt UouBe who are very 
anxious - very anzlouB - to use some words, that wo 
Slight use on this side of the House in this group, whloh 
mlpiit bo Interpreted as a alur on aoae of the labour 
represoni;aiivus on the v/ar Labour boaroyoccause 
I know that there are soae oeinbers in this House who are 
anrlcus to do that, T want tc declare quite enphatleally 
that w.;utciTer I say about tiio ;;atlonaI '.7ar Labour i;;:<ard 

3 not with the all/shtest Intention of casting any slur 
at all on any of theso neiabers representing labour on the 
National Jar Le' -ur Board, but I am not coinc to allow 
that consideration to temper my reasoning about actions 
that they have taken which I conceive to be wrong. I 
think the llatlonal 'Jar Labour Board did a wrong' thing in 
this particular case and If all the three members represent- 
ing labour were on it they are equally guilty with anybody 
else for the wrong that has been done. Now, I am only 
approaching it from that angle. 1 am not approaching it 
from the angle that some perhaps might like to Interpret 
my remarks as bolng a slam at Llosher. Not that at all. 
I can speak proislngly of Mr. Uosher, as I hove spoken 
about ua-. Finkleman, but I am not going to lot the regard 
I have for them blind myself to the fact that they do wrong 
and deservinc of criticism whon they do it. Now, In this 
particular mtorprotaiion acre it seems to mo a piiiaoie 
thing that an employer of labour - and employer of labour 
mark you - can get preferential treatment within the nean- 
ing of the regulations regarding a vote to bo tai:ea than 
can the worker. 

le are here discussing collective bargaining; «e 
are not (ilscxission trade unionism. We haT* not yet 

Mr. WillitM 

■tarted along th« road to discuss trads unlonisa; «• 

•rs only at this stags discussing oollsctivs bargaining 

and wa oannot gat aaployars to avan oonoade that 

siapla point, and in addition, tha ragulations draftad 

by tha Fadaral OoTamaaat ara an aid and oomfort 

to saployars who do not want to hara anything to do with 


.da raferanoa y4 6tarday in anothar plaoa 
to a part5:jl«r "^^'stion coocarning Intarpratations on 
oonolliatlun* I do not know yat wbathar tha naabars of 
this Uousa raally raalisa tha obstacles that ara put in 
tha way of worke "^^ ^mpllshing avan cullaotlva bargain- 
ing. It has baan said bafora in the Housa -• whether it 
was said suffloiantly wall for oanbers to take uotloe of 
it or to raglstar on mambars' minds cr not, I don't know - 
but at the rlak of repeat J ng It I want to say that there 
was a tiioa when wortcera who are in difficulty with their 
amployars could loake an application direct to tha 
Minister of Labour, or a conciliation board, and a concil* 
iatlon board would be Immediately conceded. But that 
waa too siinpie a way. LO£i;.acles started to arise and as 
my good friend from Sudbury mentioned, the first obstaola 
was the infamous Mitchell formula, iixcept for the liberals 
and coQSdrratlTe wno are iu this House all the other aaabara 
of the House were in a unit at that tiaa in oondanuiation 
of the Huraphrey-Mltohe'' 1 fnrmula- T do not icnnw what has 
ooms over aoaa people's laindti that they could have changed 
regarding that kind of thing, but that was tha first obstacle 
and Mr. uit.^.hAii want up to Kirkland Lake - ha waa not a 
aambar of the federal Parliament; ha waa Just a trouble shoot' 
9X for the right Hon. Mr. King - and whan the trouble was on 




no BBW ti 

. 9£3 . Mr* WilLiaas 

io CirklAnd Lmkm Mr. rfltchall was asnt up th«r« and bm 
bad a aica raaay-aiaaa aoiution to tn* w&ola of ttxa 
problam. and it waa a ooiapany union. Vlian wa rafar to 
tha Mitohall formula wa Hra aar«lv rafarring to tba ag* 
old policy of ttia Priaa Mlaiatar of Canada in tiia graat 
lilciog for oofflpaoy unioniaa. Mr. Mitohall waa carrying 
out that partioular policy in TVr^^^rid [^ica and aftar 
wa had adjustad oursal?aa to turn p&rticular ahatruotlon 
and w^ra abla to aaat it and ovarooaa It. wa find when 
1003 cones into azistano" *"^^t tharr' is an nJditional 
obataola astabliahad and t)M additional obataole is this; 
that you cannot an hava a oo-amiSHicnar ooaa in now to 
oonolliate a dispute until you fir^t of all aalc tha 
Labour Raiaticns Board of Ontario for tnair InterTrantion 
and, bless their little souls, their intervention consists 
of. if they agree with you, aandin^ a latter tc the Minister 
of Labour for Canada telling him that the intervention of 
the Board has been granted and after having sent the letter 
to the Minister the Minister then sends in a oonoissioner 
and after having the oomaissioner we then might get a 
conciliation board. Ail of these obstacles, some within 
the sphere of oolleotive bargaining, and notwithstanding the 
faet that they have got these kind of things, tha employers 
still won't deal with the union. I made a oo-nment about 
that tno last time I spotca on laoour matters in the House 
last week. I still aa of the same opinion. Now, the Labour 
Relations Board of Ontario act in a rather strange way 
aoaetioes - you notice 1 said 'sotaetimas' . You get a good 
employer > there are some, you icnow - you get a good employer 
and no difficulty about dealin^t with tha union, nuita ready 
to aaal witn it. Ha wants to Da satisriaa of course, that 


- 9£4 - IftP. Willi! 

you bav* a .najorlty of tim •aploy««a la tb« union. %o 
w« ooth a»;r«« - saplovar and I 9P-raa - and thla la ona 
of toa aiffiouit oasaa cna Mxnistar of Laoour 
rafarrad to aarliar. If thla la a difficult ooa, goodnaaa 
halp tha onaa that hara soma foraa attaehad to tham - tha 
Ulalatar of Laooux wicn^n a cot;r^* ^f daya a^raas tbat a 
Tota shall bm takan lu raaponaa to tha joint raprasanta- 
tlon of tfia «fflployar and •a\.^a!f, .,. i cnma « raprajentatlva 
from tha Oapartniant of I44;>c>ur -irtC taiMS a rota and blnaty- 
two par oaat of tha paopLa Ir. tha plant rotad for our union 
and vra alt down with tha ampioyar and vm nagotleta an 
agraaoiant, uat w« ran against a anftg In tha nagotlatlons of 
tha agraamant. Vail now, ucdar tha Ordar-lnSouncll 1003, 
sac. 11 of the Ordar parmltg you what /ou ara uoiabla to 
oomplata a collaotlv* bare'.alnlng agraeaant to nalca applica- 
tion to tha Board for its Intarra/atioa, and hara la a 
paoullax thing - and this la froa tha Outarlo Labour Halations 
Board baoausa wa ran against tha snag - wa appllad undar 
aao.ll of tha Ordar for tha Intarrantlon of tha Board, but 
tha Board aald • On. no, wa cannot lutarvana. You hava not 
bean oartlflad. You hava not had pravloua contractual 
ralatlonahlp ao that wa cannot do anything about It. 3o ava 
start all ovar again. Than wa ^o to tha Board to ba 
oartlflad and than wa go oaolc to tha Board and aalc tha Board 
for Its IntarvantioA to aid In tha oomplatlon of an agraa- 
aaat. Silly intarpratatlon. Is not It? 

I took this taattar up with tha Mlnlatar of Labour - 
and I should aay In this Inatanca that It Is not tha hon. 
lllnlster of Lauoox for Catario .?tr. Dalay) I tooK it up 
with, bjt I took it up with tha hon. Mlalstar of Labour for 
Canada (Mr. ^tohall) >- not with tha Intantlon of oaating 


51-6 8-S-46 

- 925 - Mr. Wllllaat 

any rafleotion on tha hoa. Ulniatar of Labour for Ontario 

(Mr. Oalay) but fealing that thia graat aiod down at 

Ottawa ought at aay rate to ba abla to aolTa a alapla 

point liica thia - of oouraa, I waa undar an illuaion. and 

I wrote this latter to the Minister aalcing bia - and thia 

is the tcernel of tha wnoie thin^; 

"Do tha fiagulationa aa containad 
in P.O. Crdar in Couucil 1003 apply 
to bargaining units that hare not been 
oertifiad as wall aa to auoh units aa 
have bean oertifiad?" 

and then I go on to explain tha point. I gat thia letter 

oaok and it ia a gem of oloudlneas; 

"Ycur lett;er of Auguat 'dbth request- 
ing Interpretations of provisions of P.C. 
1003 has bean referred to the undersigned 
by the Honourable Humphrey Mitchell to 
whom it was addressed. 

I have read your ooonunication with 
intereat and would state that it is not 
the praotico of the National Board to give 
interpretationa of the Regulationa". 

Now, that is au intereating thing in the light of this 

serious decision that they have ixade here to-day, is not 

it? That ia not in the letter, I forgot. 

"•••unless required to do so by reason of an 
appeal being made to tha National Board againat 
tha deoiaion of a Provincial Board. 

I have noted froa your letter that it is 
not your intention to appeal the deoiaion of the 
Ontario Labour Relations Board and for that 
reason I do not feel justified in venturing an 
opinion upon the points raised by you. As you 
will appreciate, there may be other faotora 
involved which led the Ontario Board to aaka 
tha decision that it reached. I might alao add 
that it is thia latter factor which has bean an 
additional reaaon why the National Board refuaas 
to give interpretations in hypothetical 

I might aay that it ia my personal opinion 
from the facta given in tha aaoond last paragraph 
of page one of your letter that the Ontario Board 
ia on raaaonabla ground in disaiising your appeal 
if you have bean in no pravioua contractual 
relatione with tha Company. This, however, is «y 


^flil Hi 






- 986 - 3-&-46 

L'r 31 11 tarn* 

own psr^onai opinion and is Tcntured 
k&ovlng tbat there may be factors involTed 
In your particular situation which are un- 
known to me. If the organization entering; 
en bargalnlno relationships fer the first 
time Is not oertified there is nothing 
te prevent the employer froc raising the 
representation issue later and thus cgd- 
pllcatln;: the organization's bargaining 

*When you are next in Ottawa I should 
btt glad to discuss some of the points raised 
by you in your lett;-:r. 1 think that a 
comprehensive answer to soae of toem would 
entail quite a task if the subject were to 
be treated solely by correspondence ." 

That is the end of the letter. I^ow, If you can 

tell me what it telle me about this trouble ' i.d the decision 

arrived at by the regional board, you are a oetter man than 

I an, Crunga-Dln, to quote Kipling, is it not? That Is one 

of the difficult oases. I have only taken two cases to this 

board — one froc the A.oton Wool Combing Limited, of Acton, 

and the other from the Toronto Hosiery, where we have had a 

vote taken and I think in about anhour and a half we will 

know that the union has won another victory in that particular 

plant. The vote finishes in a very shoi>t time. t:ow, there 

waa no difficulty with this company. The company cume to 

the board and said that it would not oppose our application 

for certification. It una as simple as that. Kow. the 

other case, the Toronto Hosiery, I have tue nere froB 

the company. I will Just read this one paragraph. The date 

Is November 4th, 1944, and It is signed bv P. Pressrave, York 

Knitting VJLlis, Limited. The Toronto lioax^y is a civiaion 

of York Knitting Mills, and It says this: 

"We are prepared to deal with the Union in 
question, but before certification Is granted we 
should like assuranoe that a majority of our 
employees are bona fide members of that urlcn .* 

- 987 - 

Ur. ffilUai 

Th«r« «M« no dlfflouity in the oaue ut all -- oona «liat- 
•Ter. Those were the only t«o oaaea I had before tha 
board, ao 1 do not aaa for a a ingle minute hoe the Hon. 
Uinl8t«r (ilr. i*aley) could repreaent that I have taken 
any uxi\icult oaaoa before the Labour rielatlona Board. 

Koa, thia particular thii.g — Oh yos, kr* 
jpeuker. I know X aa trying to conclude — 

*Ln. ^cjuAtH^H: I have given you doable tima. 
.iiUi. WILLlAliU: really, I did not think I had been 
apeaking very long. It ahona how intereated one can be 
in one'a own subject, does it not? 

4ka far aa 1 an concerned in riaing in this de- 
bate this afternoon, it Is not for the purpose of trying 
to emburrasa tne hon. iuinister of Labour (Mr. kitcueil) 
at Ottawa; nor the lit. UonouruLle Prioe kiniater of Canada 
{Ur, Mckenzie King), or any other hon. aeaber of hia 
governoent, cr the Liberal party of Canada, nor any of 
loy hon. friends here. 

But, here, Mr. Speaker, la a grievous injustice 
to workers^ and it should be the bounten duty of every 
oeaber of this House to aea that a grievoua injuatioa ia 
righted. A.a it is only for the purpose of righting 

a grievous injustice that I appaal to all our msBbers of 
the Uouaa to force the idea put forward by the Hon. the 
leader cT the oppoaltion (Ur, Jolliffe), in oroer that 
strong repreaentationa ahould be aada to the Departaent 
of Labour in Canada to aaaiat in having reveraed thia un- 
fair uxin unjust decision* 

HON. vJLOiCX A. DHSW (Prime lUniater): Mr. ^jiaaker, 
I aimply want to aay on behalf of the Oovemmant that the 
moment thia was brought to the a. ttention of the Eon. 
Minister of Labour (Ur. Daley) — in fact, iBMediatflA.7 





ad J 


- 986 - 3-8-46 

kr. Urev* 

after tho decision at Ottawa bad been node — he brou^t 
tne aeciaioa to lue utteution of tae goveraiaent and ex- 
pressed his very great concern about the result, and hla 
dissatisfaction with a situation which would arise froa 
It, ana eapnasized the need for iss&eaiace action to 
pravent the possibility of tho ruling whioh had been nad* 
stifling the efforts that have been o&rriod on to improve 
labour rel&tiuns throughout ;ae i'rovxnue or untario. 

He consulted tho Board with the whole knowledge 
of the governnent, with the request that they should pre- 
pare their several representations as to aoendaents which 
would meet the situation arising out of this and other ex- 
periences which they have had, and Just as soon as the 
Board presents those, It is the intention of the Hon* 
Minister of Labour (Ur. Daley] with the full support of tho 
government, to urge upon the government at Ottawa the 
Immediate amendment of P.O. 1003, to make It Impossible 
to have a repetition of such a ruling to take place. 

But 1 would point out that the Ontario Labour 
Halations Board had been interpreting P.O. 1003 In a way 
which would have avoided such an Impasse as this, as It la 
only the judgment which has been given in the last few 
uays wx;loh has caused this difficulty. So, It is not 
anything of sacae standing. If the JudgMont had been In 
accord with the decision of the Ontario Uibour Helatlona 
Board, we would not have had this difficulty. 

I assure you that the government will do every- 
thing It can to ptirsuade the government at Ottawa to change 
that Order, and In case any Hon. member may say, "Veil, 
you have not hud very nuch success so far**, I can only say 
tuut at least thure hau been a measure of oo-operatloa 


ax iaaoac 






^ixaW»' lii ,19010 Jada- 

Yfia yiiio n'='- 

between tb« Department of Labour and the Ontario Depart- 
Bont of lAbour, wtiioh baa been Ittoklog iu eone otber 
oaaea, and it la my bope, and it la tbe bope of tbe otber 
■eabera of tbe goTernmant, tbat in tbat Department, «e 
■ay be able to aoblere tbe reaulta «e dealre* 

With regard to tbe ronarka ebleb have been made, 
I el 11 tfuy tbat tbe governoent vlil welcome tbe atand 
taken by tboae wbo bave apoken In tbls Legislature, and 
have welcomed tbe aupport of tboae wbo bellcTC tbere should 
be 1 i:):..Hn ) m t. h uotlon lu tbo amendment of P. C. 1009. 

MR. ^FB4KXR: Orders of tbe Uuj, 

HON. OBOaiS ▲. 2»£W (Prime Ulnister); Order No. 

cliSiK OF TUB HOUJH: Order No. I. iieaumlng tbe 
adjourned debate on the aiaandment to the motion^ for the 
conslaerutiun or tne speecn or tnc UououruLtle Lieutenant 
OoTornor at tbe opening of tbe Ses8lon« 

UR. ▲. ▲. Uaol£OD (Bellwoods): Ur. Speaker, wImii 
1 picked up my paper this morning 1 became a little apprehen- 
sive about tbe possibilities that we mlgbt be able to go on 
this afternoon because when I read about tbe fire in tbe 
Treasury offices last night two things occurred to me; first, 
was this an attempt on the part of the government to repeat 
the udlobstag fire and blame it on the Drew Labour Progreas- 
Ive mambera or waa it tbe government following tbe uaual 
practice of regimes which are about to die, and whoae last 
act is to burn incriminating dooumantsT 

Now, if tbe latter Is the ease, I bope at least tbat 
the Hon. Provizioial Treasurer {Ur, Froet) can save Into tbe 
buut;«;i> which he is going to bring down to-morrov, and tout id* 
Hon. klnister of Labour (Ur. Daley) javod tbe finest labour 
laws in the world for tbe benefit of posterity. 





iQ^Oll I 

!o ar) 


iadi tcBai vroW 


tuoubX J-asn .noH 

- 950 - 3-8-45 

Nov, Ur. Speaker, I had intended to aake sone refer- 
ence to the two now Bon. ffleabers to the governiaent faally. 
I do not thluk anybody has done that ae yet. The flrat child,— 
the rirst ministerial child — to be borne after we rose, was 
the new Hon. kinister of Planning and DeTelopnaant (lir. Portor), 
I happened to b^ROTa scot la at the time of his appointffient 
and I Kiua pleuood to send him a telegrac of coogratulation. 
I expressed hifsh hopes for his ^ehleveiaents, and I amresenr- 
in^;^ jaagi&ent now until ne atxir naut he has to itfV . However, 
the Bon- Uliiister (Mr. Porter) hiis now become a aembcr of the 
uneven string of tuunatched pearls which oako up the Treasury 

beaches. Tney say that in oraor to detcrmii.e the genuineness 

of a pearl, you! bite it, and/the extent we have been bitihg 

Into this string, we have discovered a certain pastiness about 

it, that docs not suggest genulae quality. However, I wish 

the Hon. Kinister every success and I coua now to the second 

child, the Hon. Minister without Portfolio,! Mr. Webster) who 

has inherited the mantle of Ur. Goggins. 

Now, this Uinister caate into the governiaent under 
rather unusual clrcuostances. As a matter of fact I aa toU he 
literally blasted his way into the Cabinet by going into the 
office of the Hon. Prime Minister and accusing him of being 
most inaccessible Prime kinister in Ontario's history, and 
for that unusual and fresh remark, he was constantly rewarded 
with a ministerial mantle. Veil, we will tear u report from 
him, ana we will as in the case of the Hon. Uinister of 
Planning ana Dertlopnent (Ur. Porter) Judge hlu on his merits 
and see whether or not the Hon. Prime Linistcr made a wise 

Now, ilay I, Ur, apBaker, Join with the Hon. Imador 
of the opT>osltlon (Itr. Jolllffe) and the Hon. leader of the 
Lioerul party ^lor. ucpoum) in congratulating the Hon. member 

. fSl - 3^-49 

for BaXdlnand Norfolk (Mr. Itortin) and th« Hon. Bsaber for 

Peterborough [Ur. Joott) vho aoved end » eoonded the Botloa 

now before uco The Hon. aesber for Ualdiaen Norfolk 

(Mr. Uertln) elll not mind, I am aure, If I find li 

In the contents of hia apeeeh with which I agrea, MoweTer, 

I want to say to the Hon. member (Mr. Martin) that I have 

learned slnoe tae Saaalon haa opened tnat the Bon. member 

for UaldlBAnd Norfolk (Mr. Martin) haa leat a eon In tMa 

war. and. quite apurt froia any political dlfforencee we 

uay nave, i. wunt to jay to my Eon. friend that we respect 

hlD aa a laan who has made the great aaorlflce In thla war, 

and that h'l share wh^\t I am aure la his hope that thut 

aaorifico snail not have been aade in vain, and tnui within 

hla lifetlaa we will see in this Prorince, and in t 

ixatlnioa, a genuine fruits of the victory for which hia 

aon has given his ia.feo 

Mr. 3p(iakeT, 1 always find it easy to say nica 

things about my Hon. friend from Peterborough (Mr. Scott). 

He ie a very, very genial man, and we, at this end of the 

House, find him very easy to get along withj in fact, X 

find it awfully difficult to put him In the category of 

<"tory reactionary**. He is an awfully nice peraon, and 

the time may come when he will request to have hla desk 

Boved over here, and when tu^v uiiue comes, we will be 

glad to welcome him. 

How, Bay 1 say that 1 have listened with very 

giuui. intereat to sooewhat lengthy addreaa of the Hon. 

leader of the C.i;.F«, the official opposition (Mr. Jolliffe), 

and I found it/extroBely intereating addiaas, very carefully 

prepared, with all the thoroughneaa that we may expect 

from a aan highly trained acudemically, but I «aa x*ather 

diaappolnted that the Hon. Prime Minister of thla Provinoa, 

- »sz »-«^ 

In hi ft thre«-w«y oontrlbutlon to the dahate, almost o< 
plutely ignored everyttilog tbat tbe Hon. Le«aer or tne 
opposition (Ur. Jolllffe) aitld; be did touoh on one or 
two points, and he told us that he Intended to cover the 
others when appropriate Bills oaae before the Boaae. I 
hope that does not Bfean we are going to have fifteen or 
twenty — 

UQK. GXOiCK A. OfiBI (Prime Ulnister): Mr. Speaker , 
I Icnow there will be so aMny inacouraoies, that 1 cannot 
correct then all, but 1 did ro% say "appropriate bills 
before the House", I aald on the estimates of the various 
departments e 

UK. UacUCQDt Ur. Speaker, I very gladly retract 
my statement. ▲pparently I did not haar the Bono Prime 
Ulnister correctly, and there was no desiz^ on my part to 
be untruti.rul. 

However, there is another point which I think has 
been overlooked. I happen to read the classified ads 
occasiuiiaxly and I noticed one not so long ago when I was 
soanning the birth's column, thut the Bon. leader of the 
opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) is now the father of a young son. 
He IS to oe congratulated. 1 beat him to it by thirteen 
months. I was tryiz^g to explain to myself just why the 
hon. leai-icr of the oppooltion (Ur. Jolliffe) was so terribly 
irritable yesteraay afternoon during the closing moaants 
of the Session, and being unable to think of anything else, 
1 thought perhaps he had been up until the small hours of 
tha momlmg with hi a newly born son. 1 hope that does 
not happen too often, because the hon. leader of the oppos- 
ition is not partioularly pleasant, when he is in an irri- 
table mood. 

The Speech frcn the Throne refers at the outset 


Mr. MioLeod. 

to Uk9 outstanding fact of our Iif« to-daj, oainly, »e ar« 
still engagod terrible «ar» and tb« lu>n. ieauar of 
the oppoaition, in nit aore extauded reoarka on tbat aab- 
Jeoty pointed out the vary great improTaoant that had 
taken plaoa In the alXltary siiuuvion alnca thla Houaa 
adjourned Juat about a year agu« I think that those ohangaa 
have bean so great that it la a littXe difficult for 
people like ourselTes tc ^..pi'ohead jUwV bov great they 
are. Who would have thought tij. vould be possible 
within a year to sea Trance liberated la a large meaaura 
the greater part of Itaxy, nuumania, Bulgaria, the greater 
part of Hungary, the greater part of Yugoslavia, Poland, 
and Finland, and that to-day the aSB^les of the vestorn 
▲llies wcaia oe un toe Hnine, ana our r.orinern AJLlies 
fighting within twenty-fiva ml lea of BerlinT That is a 
tramendous aehleveaent. 3ut, Ur. Spaaker, I aB bound 
to aay in ay juognent, there ia some oio^e oonnaotiCB. be- 
tween theaa amended military achievements and the matter 
which 1 raiaed when I first spoke in this House a year ago. 

1 dwelt at sane length with the historic meeting 
that had taken plaoa in the Peraian capital between Ur, 
Ohurohill, Ur. Hoosevelt and Premier Stalin — the first 
■eeting between these three man. 1 said then 1 ahould nB^t 
look upon them aa ordinary indiwlduala, but would xrather 
aaa thaaa men be repraaantative of the oollactive intelllgenea 
of aankind trying to lay down a basis for ending this w«r 
aa quickly as posaibla, and laying the foundation of a paao« 
atructuxe, which would make another cataatropha of thla kind 
iapoaaibla. I think that every thing aald in the way of 
attaching Importanoa to thla oaating has bean fully JuatlTkad 
by aubsaquant eventa. Mot only have the militaiy uevelopaedks 
been highly aatiafactory, but there have alao bean voz>y 


- 9S4 - 3-6-45 

Mr. MttoUod* 

outetandlng political erents. Th« Brotton Woods oon> 
ferenot on — I cannot get the words; however, aost of tbs 
Bon. members know what the Bretton Woods conference sas — 
the Dunberton Oaks conference, and, of course, within 
recent uuys — within the last two weeks or so the monetary 
conference, that Is what I was thinking obout; I did not 
why I could not think of it — within the last two weeks 
the second meetlns betveen President Koosevelt, Prias 
Uluister Churehill, and Premier i>talin at which final 
aecisions were taken for the **knoclc-out" blow against 
Germany, and consiaeruble discussion of outstanaing and 
longstandiug political between the Allies, and perhaps 

it important of all, the decision to hold in the City of 
San Francisco on the 15th of April next, the first world 
security oonferencoo 

(Page 935 follows) 


- 93& 


To 100, thtr« l8 •ooething about all this that should 
atlr the hoarts of man forward, and I was struok by tha fact 
that In practically arary European o^pitol the announoaiaant 
of tha Crlnaa Agraaaant vas tha occasion of nore mass derion- 
atratloiis by people of titoae capltols, aho uncerstooa 
the daolslona reached there ware decisions ttiat would make It 
possible for them to live their lives In eecurlty, with brlrht 
prosp jcts, and Lnat the war wnich enveloped so oany of them 
would not occur again for sons generations, If at all. 

I was very glad to see, in the Press, the ether day 

that the s^^Q^ ':/orld Trade Union Conference neia ;& London, 

which was attended by my honourable friend for ^est York (Ur. 

Ulllard) hailed the achleTements mi the Crlioea with great 

enthusiasm. It said: 

"Delegates from thirty-five countrias, attend- 
ing the World Trade Union Conference in London, a:id 
representing over 60,000,000 workers of freedom- 
loving countrlea, have learned with deep satisfaction 
the results of the Crimea Conference.** 

Think of that, 60,000,000 workers. 

'*We hall the announcement that leaders of the 
British, Uhlted states and Soviet' Nations, together 
with their General otaffs, have agreed upon measures 
for even further accelerating the war against 
Hitlerite Germany, and bringing it to a apaady and 
victorious conclusion. 

**We fullyaupport your declaration that every 
vestige of the hateful Fascist reglaa oust be 
eradicated, and the practical me^suras that you hava 
adopted to bring about this result, and to guarantee 
that it shall be uprooted and ccopletely deatroyed." 

And, within the last week or so, the President of tha 

United Stales and the Prima Minister of Britain have felt it 

necessary to appear before supremo bodies in their respective 

countries to report the practical results and achievements at 

the Criaaa. 1 would strongiy urge, nowever, every hou. member 

of this Legislature, #io haa not done a*, shoxild make sura 

that he reads the cciqjlete text of Mr. Churchill's apaaeh to 

^ tC9© 

t amtmitwoo 
.ii«flii:iO ail:t 

. 986 - S-e-46 

Tb« C«maoB« a r«w days afa* aad» as wall, ths spsaoh of 

PrasidsBt RoossTslt to Congrass, ivliloh. psrbapa, aany or us 

beard on the air. Mr. Rooaarelt , in bis address, said: 

"The struotftre of world peace cannot b« the work 
of one aan or one pourty or one nation. It cannot be 
Just an American peace or a Brltlsb peace or a 
Ruaalan peace or a French or Chinese peace. It cannot 
be a peace of large natlona or of soall nations. It 
aust be a peace which rests on the oooperatlre efforts 
of the whole world." 

And he continued: 

"There can be no middle ground here. We shall 
have to talce responsibility for world collaboration 
or we shall have to oear the responsibility for 
another world ooufllot." 

Mr* Churchill said: 

"I supoose that during these last three winter 
months the tiuaan race, all orer the world, has under- 
gone more physical agony and misery than at any other 
period through which the planet has passed. I never 
felt so grave a sense of responsibility as I did at 

And he concludes: 

"The United Nations have the unchallengeaole 
power to lead the world to prosperity, freedom and 
happineas. The great powers oust seeic to serve, and 
not to rule the world. Joined with other states, both 
large and small, we may found a large world organlsao 
tlon, which, armed with ample power, will guard the 
rights of all others, great and small, from eiggression 
or from the gathering of the means of aggression. T am 
sure that a fairer choice is open to maniclnd than they 
have icnown In recorded ages. The lighta burn brighter, 
and shine more Droadly, than oefore. Let ua walk for* 
ward together." 

Now, llr* Speaker. I, for my part, regret that we hear 
in this country of our vices that seem to take what I 
would call a ghoulish delight In casting susplslon on the meeting 
at Crimea and suosequent coaferencea, and not only that, but go 
out of their way to ridicule even such meetings as the ^Torld 
Trade Unioa Congress, from which my hon. friend has just return- 
ed. For Instance, I have here the March issue of the "Canadlaa 
Forum". Now the "Canadian Forum** is not In any aense of the 
word officially connected with the Cooperative Coomonwealtn 
Federation, but it la a fact that the "Canadian Forum" is * -i 

9di . ecoffiinoO eilT 

-' - ^^ 

- 9S7 . s-e-«9. 

icr. Kaeuo«. 

by a group of peopl* who o«rtalnIy a*k« up a larg* part of 
tha brain cruat of tha C.C.F. 

MB. XDVARD B. JOLLISTK (Laadax of tua Oppoaltlon): 
That la antlraiy Inocrraot. 

MR. UaoLIOD: I do aoi {.m^uk. anyone alii dany that 
a vary frequent wrltar of adltorlaia in tula oiatrazlna It tha 
Prasldeut of tha Ontario Saotlon of tna C. C. f. FrofuraaslTa 

UR JOLLIirS: That la not '^orract^ altbar. 

m. UhcLEQD: Who are the ailt 3rs of this oanar? I 
read i:; 9vtry aoaih, ana i riuraxy picjc 'jp an laaua xn wnioh 
there ara not artlclea or reTieva by Profaasor Gruba, Profeasor 
Scott i^ofesaor Hnvaloek. Profftsaor l.'.^C'jrdy. and a number Of 
other profaaaors. it swunas iii;a uia oiricxaJ. itoater of tha 
Toronto Unlreralty, but. If tha hon. Leader of tha Oppoaltlon 
(lir Jrt"n iffft^ takaa n- rftsnnr.53ihi Mty for thla, that la hla 
privllaga, but I am inaraXy quoting ixom the "Canadian Forua", 
and It saya ; 

'*Aftar dlaalsalng tha Crljaaa Confaranoa aa of no 

no oonaequence, it waa juat a caaa of three ageing ntan 
playing with tha human race like so many che eke ra on a 

Than It gata down to tha queation of tha Trade Union Con- 
faranoa, and it aaya: 

"Raporta from London lead to the aaddaning eon- 
olualon that It la not nieraly national (lOTammanta in 
our war- torn world who react to international laauaa 
ill a purely self>centred national ayrup. For one 
tuing, the A.F. of L. of the United Statea rafuaed to 
attend tha conferanae, becauae It will not have anything 
to do with tha Ruaaian Tmde Uniona. whoa it aceuaea, 
with aoae Juatlce, of being only atoogea of tha 
totalitarian soviet Govenuaent," 

And it ooQtinuea: 

*Vo doubt, tha lorld .raae unxur. ' -a will 

conclude with aoma reaoundin^ Jeclarai . ...tar- 

national aolidarity, but at the moaant we are in aona 
doubt aa to how Labour aolidarlty la dlatinguiahed from 
the aolidarlty aohieired with equal eloq\»nce among the 


Ur. llAoUod. 

natlcoAl goT«nuMatf. This •••aw to I^ot^ th^ 
Christian Chur^ai •« tb^ oaly sAtiafaotory •xponanta 
of huioaxx brotbsrhood. Th«y maintain thalr idaala 
unsulliad, by taking oar* neTcf to hold intamational 
asatings with ona anothar," 

Wall. I could go on quotinr fron tha "Porun" pratty 
much along tha aama Una, and I want to aay thla, i:;at tnia 
sort of atuff not only appaara In tha "Korua", it appaara to 
hava ^aan in tha recmlar, Tecom^izoA Prasa of tha Co-Operatlva 
CommonaeaiUi i^eaeratjion in Uritisn coiuiotia, m Ontario, tha 
CoBuaonvaalth publlahad in thla provlnca, and In tha Llarltima, 
tha Commcmaafil th publlahad in th« :/aritliao lYovlncaa, ar.d I aay 
thla acrt or tnmg, at tiila crxticai moioant In world hlatory, 
doaa a very graat dlaaerviea to a system that I belieTa ia 
capable of making a great contribution to thla country. 

X think, lir. Speaker, aa we recall what haa been happen- 
ing In thla world for the laat five yeara, when we recall 
that literally oilliona of human beings hare been slaughtered 
ne«dleaaly, with no attempt on the part of world statesman to 

obviate a forthcoming naoesalty of going through this blood 

bath again, /deserve commandation and the warm-hearted support 

of human beings everywhere in the world. I do not think wa hava 

ever lived at a time in huooan hlatory, and I do not think that 

at any time in human hlatory haa it bean more true to aay: 

"There ia a tide in the affairs of man trtiloh, 
taken at the flood, leada on to fortune. 
Omitted, all the voyage of their Uvea la 
bound in ahallows and In misery." 

The oofflnponlty cannot again stand tha ahooic and tha 
aaorlfioa and the blood apllllns that wa hava gone throug}k 
during the past five yeara or more without oo9^;>let*ly wrecking 
all poaaibillty of aoclal advanoa, and I aay that it is tha 
r^aponaibillty of every hon. member in thla Legiaxature, regard- 
leas of party affiliation, to land his and har support to tha 


- 939 - 9-8-45. 

Ur. liBoL«od. 

or«atlott. of • b«tt«r und«rflt«ndlng of th«s« gr««t eTcnta, 

and not just tak« pot ahota at paopla who ara making a aupr««a 

effort to sava tha wear Id from dlsastar. 

MR. JOLLOTSt Ara thay abora critic last 

UP. MaoLEOD: No. Tbara la a big dlffaranoa batwaan 
orltlctam and slandar. Critlelso^ in tlxaa of war, or, for 
that mattar, at any tima, should ba dlraotad toaard tha attain^ 
Ing of a apaclflo obJactlTa, but no laas oritlclaa. 

Tha hon* Laadar of tha Opposjltlon (Mr. Jolllffa) aald 
m his apaacb ha had graat oonfldanaa In tha fighting soldlar, 
but ha ragrattad to aay that ha did not hava anything Ilka 
that oonfldanaa In tha leadara. 

UR. JOLLIEfl: That la righto 

MR.. UacLEOD: Nov. Ur* Speakar, the graat ayenta that 
the hon. Leader of the Opposition mentioned in hla apeaeh vera 
not juat tne reault of courage, a. :aan can be vary brave, a 
aoldler can be very brava, but unleaa his bravery and eouragi 
ara directed by an effort of military atratagy, unleaa tha 
general staff la able to give the over-all direction to that 
courage and tenacity that tha aoldler haa, eyan hla courage 
can avail very little. 

(Page No« 940 foUova.) 

. 940 - 3*a-^ 

Mr. ltaoLM4 

I tmnt to say that in ny Juugaaot tha huiDan raca 
to-aay aauuxu icax piofouiidiy grutaful for tba fact that 
thare ura such world laadera anc suoh graat atataanan 
as Pranklin italano itooaavalt, ff in aton Ohurehlll* und 
Josapn ^luiin. 

Afi HON. ISMBU: la ara Tory grataful for thaa 
alao , 

hiti, kttcL£OD: Thara ia no uaa talking to my 
friand, baoauua what I au talking ubout now paaaaa hia 
conprahanal r.n nm fust does not undr^ratuod i%. 

AH Ml}:.. U4i<.lA>ii2) . I au alrttla thara ia a lot 
Bora «ho do not.. 

UR. l^cLEOD: However, kr. ;;p«akBr, everything 
that I nave said, X t-hink, indicates that what has happan- 
ad in thla world during the past yaur or two has a vary 
alract bearing upon our own futura aa a nation. Canada 
has thia auoh in eonuaon with other oountriaa, that she ia 
part of tha aaxaa world. Canada ia a nation that dapanda 
Tery largely upon export trade for her suTTlval; und 
it la imposaibla for ua to have a very bright piotura of 
post-war proapaots for thia Doiolnlott, unless wa under- 
atanu l.... tdoaa proapacts can only be raalizad in a 
world of social and eeonomio stability. 

If there is going to be chaoa in Europe, if thara 
ia going to ba oivil war In the liberated countriea, 
than it will ba quite iupuaaibla for Canada to find 
narkets for the saroluoes that she produoea. Canada 
neeas worla aiuoii-xty in oruer to proviae full efflploy- 
■ant and production and general aecurity for her paopla 
in the post-war days. That la why I think it is very 
appropriate to disousa thaaa matters nere. 


- 941 - 3-8-45 

I ma takan to taak last yattr by tha Hon. manber 
for Cootirana for upandlng a lot of tlaa upon oaiieru 
which did not aTfoot Ontario. Ontario doaa not happan 
to ua an island by Itaalf . Ontario la lart of Canada, anA 
Canada la part of the world. 

AN U(tl« MEMBSR: Ontario noada aone attanti3ti 

UA, liaoUOD: I will get down to that in due ooirsa. 
I aay that a country auoh aa oura, with ita induatrial 
potential, Ito potential for producing thlnga thut thla 
world neada, cannot help but feel happy OTer the fact 
thut a supraoa effort ia being aada to iravent a repet- 
ition at the end of this wur of those thlnga that occurred 
during tha la^t war, ana thut kept i^Airopa In a atate of 
turmoil for a quarter of a century. 

Now. I am very f^lad to find that there are paorla 

in taiQ o;>untry, among zxiea. whom we call capltaliata, 

who are thluking of the f utusa in much the same tersa 

that I am thinking of it now. I mentioned one of thosa 

this after nooAr la ay last raioarka hara. 1 quoiea 

Wllaoo, the President of the Royal Bank of Canada, who 

;iaid. first of all; 

"First of all, what are the general ob> 
jectlvaa to be sought after the war? 
It saaffla to aa that wa must think of 
seTeral. (1) Seeking the beat maana 
of turning our abundant natural re- 
sources Into usa for the benefit of the 
oountry. (2) Planning to eliminate 
oass uneaploymant and raiaove the fear 
cauaad by feelings of insecurity. (3) 
bringing together the intereataof bua- 
ineaa, agriculture and labour. (4) 
PreserTing bur front against Inflatiun, 
while protecting ouraelTea against stag- 
nation and dapraaaion." 

I think that ia a very good aantlment. I noticed 

a letter In the Toronto Jtar the other day from tha Bon. 

aaaber from ^i. i>avid (Ur. Danniaon). Tha Hon. maaber for 


J'nsj-ii/. 7ais- 

- 948 • 3<>&-45 

Mr. ItaoLeed. 

dt. lATid vrit«s « lot of l«ttor« to the papers, «ten he is 

not ttttendiag to hie beee or introdaolog Bill*. A&d I rea 

eoroee this letter, — I Just eant to ueke euro that I heve 

what 1 want to 3Ukj from the letter readjr. Just let your 

soal rest In peace orer there* 

Saye the Hon. ateaber for 3t. Iievid: 

•Labour Progreaelye aenbere who are eiooere 
will look beneath the aurface of tnis alter- 
nating Socialist ano oapitalist denagogy 
they will diacover the political opportunlaa 
that ia the real core of Canadian Conmuniat 
po&ioj. They should repudiate the action of 
their leaders who now seek to bolater up the 
faltering Liberal machine by tryinis to de- 
ceire the workers into a belief thut capital- 
ism can or will provide Jobs after the war. 
Thia ia an historically proven faikcy 

lell, Mr. Speaker, if you accept that at its face 
value, then there la going to be large scale unemployment 
and misery in this country as soon as the war ends, if it is 
an historically proven fallacy that capitalism can provide 
Joba. Now, 1 find them very difficult. 

My Honourable friend fran Ontario (Ur. Illliama) 
says he finas it very difficult to unaerstana the workings of 
our minds. That la autual, because you people on the other 
side of the Bouse, when you talk about socialism, usually 
talk about New 2^aland as the model on which you desire to 
base yourselves. It has slways been my opinion and the 
opinion of other students of the question, that New Zealand 
is not a aooialist country. There is no sooialism In New 

MR. JOLUm: It is well on the w^y. 

Uti. MacUDD: That Is just what I wms waiting for, 
and If there are any capitalists here, the fact that aooial- 
itm is well on the amy in Mev Zealand should set your mlnda 
at rest, because there is nothing to happen to you. 

I am quoting from an article in the American Hew 






. 943 - 3-e*46 

Ur. UttcLaod. 

Leuuer, — tbut io a gooa orthodox mtx^fii.iQ9, I !!•▼• no 
doubt that the Bon. loader of the oppoaltlon (Mr. Jolliffa) 
regards it as an onran. 

Mii. Jui.U.//&: Ho, 1 do not. 

MH. liaoLEOD: At any rate, the writer of thla article 

is persona errata with the Hon. leader of the opnosition, for 

it 16 the tion. Walter Kuflh, uiDorite iMputy frxsk^ Kinlater of 

New Zealand, and he says: 

" The fact that Hew Zealand has bean con- 
trolled by a Labour government has not 
■eant that capital inToated in Industry 
has uuffored. On the contrary corporation 
profits and rates of dividends .... have 
consistently increased not only from 1935 
to 1939 but all throughout the war." 

- 944 - 9-&-46 

Ifr. HieLaod 

What on •arta is Kr. Tr«*trail ge.tioc so •xolted 

m. SPVAKnt I ask hon. maBbcrs to atop thesa 
aaldoa. Thay do not oontrloute to tte dabata at all. 

UR. llioLBOD: Thaok you, Mr. Spaakar. So far aa 
«a are corearnad we llatenad In allenca to the Laadar of 
the upposiii .n witaout maxiag aoy interruptions at all. 

MR. SPBAnR: I would aak hon. BBMbars to addraaa 
the Chair If they wish to put a auaatlon. 

lot, &!aoLSOD: If «e can taiiava tha daputy Prlaa 
lllnlatar of Kaa Zaaland there la no aooiallam In that eoun- 

UR. J0LLIF7E: I did not say thara aaa. Read tha 
rest of the article. 

UR. UaoLSOD: I have read all that I hare here. I 
cannot read the whole book. 

UR. CA33BLUAN: Ihen the hon. aaaibar quotea frcn 
an article ha should be prepared to produce It all. 

lot. SPSAKSR: I shall have to name an hon. Ban bar 
If these asides and Interruptions continue. The hon. 
Laadar of the Oppoaltlon la quite capable of taking care 
of hlBaelf . If an hon. neaber desiring to put a question 
addreaaea the Chair I will ask the hon. Damber who haa the 
floor If he conaenta to a question being aakad, but I aa not 
going to have the Houae controlled frcn the aide benohea. 
Thla croas-flre must oaasa. Doaa tha Laadar of tha Oppoal- 
tlon wish to aak a quaatlonT 

UR. JOLLIFFB: I as perfectly satlafiad with the 
way In which tha hon. aambar for Ballwooda haa quoted fzoa 
the article, baoauaa It la juat what I expected of hla. 

UR. MaaLSOD: I do not know that it la the cuatCB 
of the Daputy Prime Ulnlater of Haw laalaod to azpraaa two 

g a iv c *? 






C79<I e 

• 945 - 9-&-48 

Mr. MaoUod 

dlUMtrlcally OT)r)Oslte points of vie* In Xh9 on* artiol*. 

I am aimpxy repoatiug wam h% saldt that a X<ttbour gOTsrar 

■•nt in Itav Zealand baa not aaant tk«t capital Inveatsd In 

industry and fanning; has suffered. On tha eontrary oorpora* 

tlon proflta ana rates of dlviaenas and famars' inocaas 

as vail aa vagaa, haTa oonalatantly Inoraaaad not only 

from 193S to 1930 but ull throughout the war. I aa not 

objecting to that at axx* I an sinqpiy giving It aa a 


But if hon. members opposite are not satisfied with 

that, in line with the sweeping staceaant laaca by tne nou. 

Beabar for St* Darld (Mr* Demilson} I would like to read a 

short quotation frcn what the Right Hon. Herbert Uorrlson 

said, and I am sure non. fflembers will net ob>ot to juy 

quoting hlB beoause he does not have a very high opinion 

of people with my point of view and he has been praised 

by Mr. Coldwell and other leaders of the C.C.7> 1 quote 

Mr. Morrison from an article which appeared in MaeLean*a 

Magazine of May 15, 1944, in whloh he said: 

"In the var we have on the 
whole ri3on to rery great heights 
of unselfish unity. All of ua in 
all elasses have shown readiness to 
aeoept sacrifices and hardahipa In 
the Interest of our country, and of 
a cause wider than our country, in 
which we all profoundly believe. 
If we can keep up to that atandard 
when peace conea there is good hope 
of the better world to which we all 
look forward. If we can't then we 
ahall get ourselvea into trouble 
through our own folly, shortsighted* 
neas and selfishness. Just as man have 
ao often done In the past.* 

Mow listen. Ha goes on: 

"Don't let us look for any free 
and eaay Utopia i don't let ua azpaot 
that heavn on earth will cone all of 
Itself If only the bad old nen of the 
stupid goTernnent or sobm other 
villain of the piece will let It. 

- 946 - 9-&-48 

Mr. ItoeUod 

*Th«r« !• t Mrtaln amount of 
«ord spinning about prlvata antarprlaa. 
For soaa time to coat after tha aar 
— and I don't aaan only the so* 
aallad tr^trtaltlon period whan «a ara 
atlll in a atata of aoonomlo amar- 
ganay, but a period longer than 
that -- the real prttotloal laaua In 
Britain will not be the Baintenanoe 
of private enterprlae.* 

Aooordlng to Mr. Morrison there la no help whatever 
that In tha iBBaAlate future capitalism or free enterprise , or 
whatever you want to call it, mil disappear in Britain. I 
only wish that the leaders of the C.C.P. party in this country 
were talcing the saco oommonsense point of view that the leadera 
of the Labour party In Kew Zealand, and the leaders of the 
Labour party in Auatralia and the lobaera of the Brltiah Labour 
party in Britain are taking. 

MR* DBlQilciuxv: May I aax txie hoc. memoer a question? 

MR. MaoLEOD: I would prefer not to be interrupted. 

l!R. 3PEAKXR: The hon . member desires to ask a quea- 


MR. 3PS1KKR: What la the qxiestlon? 

MR. DENMISON: Wouia tiie Hon, memher like me to in- 
form the House of the rest of my letter and give the one 
sentence vhloh was not put In the Star, which materially 
affects the argument the hoa. member is now making. 

MR. dPSADR: Does the hon. member for Bellwooda 
desire to anawer the queatlon or to proeeed? 

MR. MaoLSOD: There ia nothing to anawer there at 

MR. SPSAKBR: Then proceed. 

MR. lHoLIQD: I do think it la important for ua to 
^▼« a pretty clear picture in our mlnda aa to what the set- 
up la going to be in this country when the war anda. I do 

- 947 - 3^8-48 

Mr. llAoUod 

not think «• stao.xu «ii;a l«tt«rs Ilka this to tHa press 
that acmsbody la daoalTlng tha workara Into ballarlng tbst 
oapltollaa can or will provlda Jobs aftar tbs ssr and 
that that la a hlatorloally proran fallacy. 

I do not know, Ifr. Spsakar, what hlatorlan provad 
It to ba a faUsoy. Tha f-^undar of vnnat I think most 
paopla agrea is aclanti: ' sb, a nan by tha nsMs 

of Karl Marx, aald alghty-fiva yaara ago that aoononlc 
ayatams do not die cr dlaappaar whan thay ara azpsndlng 
and miza tna poasiDixlty of graatar axpanaion bafora Ihsa* 
I think tha outstanding fact of our tima and for aoBS 
little tima to coma la that ennltallam In thia world Is 
Tary strong aa an aconomic ^ystam and nothing that I aay 
sgalnat It or In ita favour can alter ihat fact ona lota. 
Tha fact Is that we live undar this system, and thla Is the 
system wa snail live unaar even if tha O.C.l« ccna into 
power In Ottawa or in Ontario, and any benefits that the 
C.G.f. say that they would give to tha neopla of Canada 
would ooma because of tha fact that capltaiiaa was a stabls 
and expanding eoonomlc ayatem. But that doaa not altar 

the fact for ona moment thnt the day will come in my judg- 
ment whan tha majority uf paopla In this country will ds' 
clda that ospltallam la not a ayatam under idalok tha people 
of thla country can reaeh the klgbeAt level of thatr 
development. That Is my opinion. But that tiis« la not 
now, and loose talk and vague promises do not help tha 
situstion. 2 heard the Leader of the Oppoaltlon (Mr. 
Jolllffe) spesk In Raglna laat year and aay: Tha issue 
feeing you on the 6%li of June, or whenever II was, end the 
issue you will have to decide is whether you are going to 
live under oapltallsa or whether you are going to live In 
a cooperative eomonwealth. 

- 946 - 8-6-46 

Mr. Jolllffc 

MR. JOLLIFFK: Ur. Sp«a)cer, I ask that the hon. 
nafflbar (Mr. MacLeod) to withdraw that stataaant. I siada no 
auoh atatoaant at any tioo ia the JaaieatcaawaD oaapaign. 

MS. MaoLBOD: I am aorry. but I oanaot withdraw it, 
baoauaa I heard it with my own aara. 

MA. JOLLIFFK: I am asking you to withdraw it; you 
did not hear it with your own ears. 

MR. '.fsnT.T?nD Tn the City of Reirlna - 

MR. Ji)LLlI¥i^: Ux. 3i>«dalcer . t.aiiiK Me have had about 
enough of theae rude euid irrelevant atatettanta whioh are 
quoted and taken out of their context , and r wi -: i not have th« 
hon. fflefflber (Mr. MacLeod) quoting as as aayiiig acaething that 
I did not aay at any tine. 

MR. 3PBAKER: May I say tc the hou. member for Bellwoods 
(Mr. MacLeod) that the hon. Leader of the Oppoaition (Mr. 
Join f fa) diaputea a statement , and aaks you to withdraw it. 
Do you wish to do so? 

MR. MaoLSOD: Mr. Speaker, if under the rulea of the 
House - 

MR. SPEAKER: I am asking the question. 

MR. MaoLBOD: Mr. Speaker, if under the rulea of tta* 
House I am compelled to withdraw a remark whioh I believe to b« 
true, then I will withdraw it - 

MR. iPBAiCSR: Oo you withdraw? 

MR. McLEOD: No, I do not withdraw. 

MR. J('FS: Then I wish to inform tha house that the 
statement ia entirely falae. 

HON. OBOfCE A.DRB# (Prima Minister: Mr. Soeaker. I 
have no aasxre to get into tnia, out 1 tmnK cno ruie is very 
clear that if a atatemeut ia made, and the hon. member about 
whom it ia addressed aaid it was not made, then it ia an obliga- 

. 049 * 8-6*46 

Mr. Jolllff* 

tlon upon th« owo quotlu^ tbt words to withdraw tbtm. 

MR. JOLLirFX; Mr. 3p««K«r, I think that is oorr«et, 
but OB tht whola it nay t>« that it it not at iaportant at 
both tht hon. ntabtr for Btllwoodt (Mr. MaoLtod) and I hart 
aadt it apptar. ILrmry hon. atabtr of thit Bout* icnowt at 
wall tnough to know I would aakt no tuoh abturd ttattstnt. 
Tht istut to wbioh ho rtftrrtd will not bt dtoidtd in any 
proTiucial tltotion or aunioipal tltction. Tht hon. laafflbtr 
for Btllwoodt (Mr. MacLtod) knows 7try wall that 7 am 
inttlligtnt tnough to tsake any srtnb statentnt. 

MR. 3PBAXSR: My uoderBtuxiax. ' ■- if an hon. atabsr 
■aktt a atattatnt* and tht ont conotrniog «iioa it wat 
addreattd, danlts it, thtn tht othar hon. nernbtr tautt acctpt 
his word* Doaa tht hon. moaoer for "iorK South (Mr. Jollifft) 
dtny tht ttattmtnt? 

MR. JOLLinrS; Yat , Mr. Speaker. I deny tht atatt- 

MH* MaoLEOD: Mr. Speaktr, I am always rary happy to 
abidt by any ruling that you give, and If it la vour ruling, 
under tht rults of tht Houst, that I sutt wit^iUruw, than, of 
coorat. I will withdraw - and thatt that. 

Now, let ma ooat to Ontario. Ifhtn wt ntt htrt latt 
ytar wt were faced with a aituation where the governmtnt did 
not hart a working majority in this Houat. Wt had bttn 
approaohtd by tht prtss prior to tht optning of tht Houtt.tad 
atktd what our attitudt would bt , and wt said wt would givt 
our fullttt tupport to trtry pitot of good Itgitlation that 
thit goTtroffltnt introduott. ^t rtcognittd that it waa tht dttirt 
of the ptoplt that tht Ltgitlaturt whoa thty tltottd to offiot 
in Augutt of 1948 should find toat way of carrying on tht 
butinttt of tht prorinot. and wt ftlt that ainct tht prtttnt 

- 950 • 5-8-46 

Prim* Mlriiit^r had o««n aumman**! hv Hi a Honour to forn 
A (Suv«riia«at that •ft^iaiu^ s&ould o« Jooa tc raciiitat* 
its prografflma at tha last sassion; oonsaquantly, on aost 
quastlons wa aupportad tha goTarnmant . unlaaa thara wan 
soma olaax-out issua bafora tba Housa, upon wbicti wa fait 
wa should withdraw oar support* 

Suoh a situatio'^ Apo^a wn*. tha budgat m^» finally 
passad by tha Housa. Zvaryci^ aara will raoall tnat on tba 
Spaaoh frca tha Throna tha Opposition introduoad no aoand- 
nant* Thay votad against the Spaash froa tha Throne , or. at 
laast» tha aotion to thanic His Honour for his gracious spaaoh - 
Z think that is it - aui that did not atriica aa as a very 
•ansibla thing to do bacausa* aftsr e^^ it. was slaply tha 
outline of the govarnoant's prograouna* bha notion was one that 
a reply should be properly addressed to tha Lieutenant 
OoTarnor. And I oannot sea why anybody would want to laalca 
political capital out of toting agiainst a notion of that kind. 
UowaTor. when wa got down to the budget, the Opposition did 
■OTs and a—ndaant , although there was pretty general agreaaant 
that the budget night pass without an amendment, but an aaand- 
aant was finally brought In, and it was irery much litce the old 
aaandaanta which the iai« Ur. Woodaworth uaed to tmf in 
parliaaent at Ottawa <• "this Housa regreta that tha OoTarnaant 
is not aatablishing a *Co-operatiTa OooBOBwaalth** 

MR. JOLLIFFB: Oh, no. in waa not. 

MR. MaoLBOO} It was something of that tcind. It was a 
Tery nondescrirt tyce of aaandaant . which neither said what it 
aaaat, nor msBut waat it said, it was siapiy a form of worda, 
and wa rafuaad to be put ic the position of roting for that kind 
of a political aaandnant. and wa. therefore. Toted against tha 
inaaent, sua tnan Totau against tue ouaget. 

. 951 - 8-6-45 

How«T«r, a yaar has pasaad ainoa tbe^ T think 
tha hon. Prima Mlnlatar and hla eollaaguaa on ttaa 
treaaury Mnohea would hava to adodt - and I thlnlc tbay 
would adalt - that no goTarnaant avar faoad a laora oo- 
oparatlra oppoaition than faoad hla laat yaar • by and 
larga* K?arythlng waa dona to faoilitata tha woric of tha 
Bousa to to through the laglalation that na pot bafora ua« 

Howavar, a lot of changua hav<» taken plaoa aiaoa 
than. Tha govariunaut has, in ay Judgsant, ooaplataly 
uaurpad its powar, and has miau^rd the mandate given to it 
mjf this Legislature. 

The hon Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) - 
and now I am going to say something thftt he will like - 
oade a very exhausted analysis of tbe governoent ^£-. 
programiie; everyone of tnex, frox 1 to ^£. and it took 
three houra to do it. Ana tiie gov^ritmouv, on its part, haa 
had little to say. The hon. Prime Minister has complained 
about certain ads which aopeared in the paper, and I am 
franic to say that tha general onargea made in those ads were 
pretty much in line with tbe charges made by the hon. Leader 
of tha Opponition; tha only difference being that he hud a 
iBuoh longer time to amplify, wnereae we were co:apeIied to 
confine ourselves to very soall apace in the newspapers* After 
all. we do not have the milliona that George McCullough and 
"Bill" Wright with whiob to buy space In tbe newspapers; we 
hare to oompreas what we have to say into a very a'aall apace. 
But. by and large, the Indictment by the Hon. Leader of the 
Oppeaitiori is as yet unanawered , and I think it is the desire 
of thia House that at some time some hon. member of the 
government "H^ get up and defend as forth-rightly its poaitlea 
on theae queatiens, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition did 
when he laid Dare the government's record. 

J-4 • •** " »-d-46 

Wow, M'r. 3p«&k«r, In vtaw of the latacaga of th« 
hour, I aoT« ttM Adj^uruaiaat or tte d«b«t«. 

MotioD agrv^d to. 

HON. OKOICB A. DRir«r (Prl<M Minister)- ki t 
•xpIaiQ«d y«st«Adft/t w« will prooeed wit& tte budg«t to>'aorrow. 
Mr* Speaker. I taore the Uousa to now adjourn. 

Motion agreed to.aal the House ti «r.,trned at 6 o*olook< 

- 953 - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, March 9, 1945. 

Honourable IlUlam J. Stewart, C.B.S* 

The Houae met at 3 o'clock. 


MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 


Introduction of bills. 

RON. GEORGE A. DREW (PrlM Minister): Mr. Speaker, I 

have here a lasasage from the Lieutenant Governor, signed by 

his own hand. 

MR, SPBAXSR: "The Lieutenant Governor transmits 
Estimates of certain sums required for the 
services of the Province for the year ending 
31st March, 1946, and recojoDands tham to tha 
Legislative Assembly. 

"Toronto, March 9th, 1945. • 

Orders of the Day. 

HON. OlOBOE A. Zm (Prlns Minister): Order No. 40. 

THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Order No. 40, tne house in 
Comnittae of Supply — Mr. Frost. 

HON. UBLIE E. IROST (Provincial Traasurar) : Mr. 
Spaakar, in moving that you do now laava tha Chair, and tha 
House resolve Itself into Comittea of Supply, I would Ilka 

- cse - 

I J 

1 V ii a 

.8807^l:i3<nc9 V 

M «cii^n r 

Uv iJ 

,baBA txwo si: i 

lOBiooc ;lc-rrV tsIS 


xo s-xaD'iO 




- 994 - ^9-4S. 

ICr. Frost. 

to say that a year ago, whan Introduelo^ th9 Budget for the 
flaoal year 1944-49, I aald that we had net In moat diffi- 
cult daya; that we had a long and difficult path ahoad; 
that this was a wartime legialatura and that the Budget 
would be a ;7artlms Budget. All of these things hold true 
to-day. Victory Is assured If «e adhere to our determlia.tlon 
to win. The path which leads to peaoe la still difficult. 
There are great sacrifices in oen and material still to b« 
made. This is still a wartime legislature. This, again, 
will be a v.'artliaa Budget. 

Last year I discussed at some length Dominion- 
Provincial relationships, including our field in the wartime 
economy, particularly as circumscribed by the Dominion- 
Provincial i^reoment. 

I know that the hon. meiia>era of this House may be a 
little bit tired of hearing about the Domini on-Provincial 
relationships, but, in the lancuage of the Bible, **iqpon It 
hangs all the law and the prophets". 

1 referred to the unselfish cooperation which the 
Province of Ontario was glad to extend in order to assist 
and encourage the Government and Parliament of Canada to wage 
total Trar against the Axis powers. As a result our postwar 
planning has been made much more difficult. TThile most States 
of the American Union have piled uqp huge cash surpluses to be 
used in postwar development, the Province of Ontario hae turn- 
ed over to the Dominion Government taxing righta from whleli 
very large sums would have accrued to the province. 

The Oovexnaent believes that it it meet Important that 
there should be a clarification of the varioxis fields, includ- 
ing that of taxation, to be occupied by tue Dominion and Pro- 
vincial Governments. Otherwise, it is quite Impossible for 

" o afiv aiflit Jarfjf 
dxo en©; 

jcf SXt'C^e 9^9ri;* 


. 995 - 3-9-4S. 

lir. rroat. 

this Proylnoe and its more than 900 nunlelpalitlea to propar- 
ly doal with nostwar questions. It la Inarltable that tha 
iTovince viil Da caoTrontad with great expendituraa followlxiK 
the war. It la neceaaary that «a ahould not only hara plana 
prepared to undertake theaa taaka, but we should know how 
lon^ It will be before wa nay expect to reoelTe sufficient 
revenuea from our own flolda of taxation to meet tha obllga- 
tlona which will be placed upon us. 

Ur. Spea^'er, we do not attei!q)t to conceal our disap- 
pointment at the failure of the Dominion aovemmant to call a 
Domlnlon-Provlnolal Conferenca. It is of the highest order of 
Importance that such a conference should be convened without 
further delay. Wa feel that on that conference depends tha 
ability of the goyemments of all the prorlneaa and their 
municipalities to plan wisely for the postwar days. Ontario 
has been willing and anxious to confer in a spirit of goodwill 
and cooperatioo as a member of a great Confederation with all 
other GO'V'ernmenta. Unfortunately, we hare been denied the 
opportunity. The Goyernment and Legislature of the Province 
of Ontario In good faith entered into the Agreement of 1948* 
In the same spirit of cooperation and good tnith It had tha 
right to expect that in this fiscal year Juat closing, whan 
we are hurrying on to the daya of peace, with all of the 
attendant problaiaa, a conference would haw bean held to tha 
end that this Province and all of the provinces of Canada could 
have planned soundly and wisely for the coming days. 

Denied tha opportunity of meeting at tha confemoe tabla 
with the other Roremiaonta of Cnnnda, the Government of Ontario 
naTartneieas proeaedad to atteaq}t to dispoaa of certain prob- 
laaa within its constitutional powers. Great injuatlcaa and 
inaqualitles exiat in our tax atruotvira. Theaa have bean 


91jB 9W 



. 956 - 8-9-46. 

Ur« Frost. 

aaip&lfled and Bultlpll«4 by the ijq>tot of h««Ty 7«d«ral tax- 
ation. One of tha aasantlala of poatwar planning is to bring 
about fraadon of Invaatiaant. Tba attraction of capital to oar 
Provlnoa, and the frae employnent of the sazna, would create 
prosperity and work, IneTltably leading, among other thlnga, 
to larf^r sources of revenue. Duplication of taxation, 
pexticulflurly in succession duties, has resulted in restric- 
tions in the investmant of capital. It has been plain for 
some time past that this ev^il has been increasing. Barriers 
to development have tliua been created. The GoTernnent of 
Ontario led the nay, as I say, in its constitutional spher* 
in offering to the other proTinces to eliminate the evils of 
oailtlple succession duties. Agreements have been arrived at 
with the provinces of ^uebec and Nova Scotia. Other agree- 
osnts are In contenplatlon. A sound step in the advancttDent 
of Interprovincial relations has been taken* It is hoped 
that this will lead to ultimate uniformity in taxing methods 
and in the slnplificatlon of administrative procedure aa 
between the provinoea of Canada. Other conferences have been 
held on a variety of subjects. What has been achieved at 
these meetings la only a forerunner of what can be aohlaved at 
a wider conference. In such a spirit, the Government of 
Ontario, sinsa August, 1943, has been ready and anxious to 
confer with the Federal GovernoMnt and with the goivermenta 
of our sister pirovinees. 

Th9 Coveronent decided, however, that It should no 
longer wait In making a reodjustnent in municipal taxation and 
the costs of education. Desirabla as a Doainlon-Provlncial 
conference would have baas as a foror\ir.nBr to such an adjuat- 
mint, never theleas, the Govemaent haia t;:at It could no 
longer delay in this iqportant matter if It was to proceed In 

...Jtw '-> 

oa blsj 0£it 
bn3 rro^t j-sx- . 

^- ■ -^ tp'iJ file 


lexjiw B 



;BleJ& le: 

- 9S7 - 3-9-49. 

Mr. Frost. 

Ita of fort* for « tooxxder after- the-war economy. Real ••- 
tate In Ontario haa an asaeaaed Talue of nearly three and a 
half billion dollara. Heary taxation haa dlaoouraged build- 
ing and inproTing, with the roault that thla great aeaet 
baa been, to an extent, frozen. Thla haa In the paat re- 
flected Itself In reduced aotlvltlea of the building trade, 
and It ia In the falling off In thla trade that moat economle 
depreaalona have comaenced. High taxation haa dlaoouraged 
our people fran owning and building their own homea, and from 
owning and operating their own fama. As part of our plans 
for a greater Ontario It was believed that the Covemoent 
should act without further delay, dosplte the fact that our 
Dominion-Provincial relationshlpa had not been clarified. 

Following are some of the considerations Involved in 
the huge shift of the tax burden undertaken by this Govern- 
ment : - 

1. To give full opportunities of education to every 

2. To remo^ some of the crushing burden of taxation 
on real estate. 

3. To encourage our fighting men with the knowledga 
that we are making it easier for them to own thair 
own hoaea* 

4. To encourage activltlea in real estate and induo« 
amployaant in the building tradea. 

5. To enable the municipalities of Ontiario to attract 
business and industry by reason of lower taxes. 

Am stat«4» one of the xmder lying rsasons for the 
Province aaauming so large a share of the cost of education was 
to teJce steps to ensure that every child in the Province would 
have the opportunity to be educated to the full extent of hit 

■ioa 3VCi 

988 - 3-9-45. 

Ifr. Prott. 

or her mental o^;>aclt7, no laatter viiere be or ste nlgbt lire 
or whet the finenolal olroinBtanoes of ble or her parents 
might be. Upon the health and education of o\ir children de- 
pends iixe future of our Frovlnoe. This adjustaent or tax- 
ation, which la the greatest eTor undertalcen by any Province 
in the history of Canada, provides the opportunity for cor- 
recting glaring defects In our educational system. These 
Include equalization of standards of building* and equipnent 
as between larger and smaller connunltles — 

Only a few days ago a teacher said to ma that this 
was, he thought, the emancipation of the a chool teachers. 
Perhaps I shall refer to that again a little later on. 

— providing broader facilities for vocational educa- 
tion, correcting disparities in salaries eoid enabling the 
unification of the small, single-room units into larger and 
more efficient schools with ampler facilities for meeting 
the needs of the day. The Government has not atteaq)ted to 
encroach upon the authority of the school boards, and is 
willing and anxious to cooperate with them in great educa- 
tion reforms. At this time, however, school boards are 
urged not to indulge in extravagonoa but to economise in m 
reasonable and practical way. igain I say, this is a vartuM 
Budget. It this time of crisis economy is essential. 

▲notner reasom for this great adjustment has been to 
reduce the excessive burden of taxation which has been injur- 
ing real estate, since the inception of oxir school system 
by Dr. Ryerson nearly a hundred years a^o school taxation has 
besQ principally levied upon real estate. The burden of 
taxation has inerensed. Tbe relative value of real estate 
has lossenedy - that is, the relative value of their assets 
have lessened. 

- 959 - 8-9-49. 

Mr. yrott. 

We haT« scientifically added to the tax strtictxire vhlch waa 
devised for conditions of a hundred years apx>. it this 
tlas I frankly say tixtxM vhile it is the duty of the school 
boards to economize in every reasonable and practical way, 
It Is the duty of munlclTial councils to nsas the pr«at 
reduction in sonooi levies on "^o tcoir tai^ayers. in so 
doing our aunlclpalitles vlll not only be helping theaaelTea 
and t^r-'r rntftpayors, but xrtll also tia assisting their gorem- 
■ent to onng ah:>ut broader tax adjustments vhloh will reaora 
inequalities and injustices In our tax system, with all of 
th«ir trfl^lo effects on our developiaBnt. A rwneral adjust- 
ment m the tax load will provide tho stimulation nocesaary 
to encourage agriculture, business and Industry to provide 
for the development of our country and for the full employ- 
ment of our people. 

Mow, I should like to say to the House at this moment, 
in an aside, that the mention of the possibilities of redue- 
tlons and the possibilities of the extension of educational 
facilltlos should not be underestimated. 

I have here some of the partleulara of what these 
grants will be, and I notice high up in the list is the good 
old County of Brant. Uy hon. friend opposite (ICr. Nixon) will 
b^ Interested to learn that the grant for his county, outside 
of the City of Brant ford, will be ineraased from $57,800 to 
|1 90,000 in this year. Then, inasmuch as he Uvea so eloae to 
the City of Brentford, he will be lnter«ated to know that in 
the City of Brentford the Inoreasa is fron $36,000 to $10£,000. 

Now, we have not forgotten Northern Ontario, and T see 
my hon. friend froa South Cochrane (Ur. arumaetti aaixing, and 
he has a right to amlle, because the grant there is increased 
from $876,000 to $644,000. 



- 960 - 8*9-45. 

Mr. Froft. 

Uy hon. friend from Elgin (Ur, Hepburn), who raprvs- 
ents ft r«al -- I waa going to eay "average" — but a real 
good, repreeentatlTe county of the Province of Ontario, 
will be glad to go back home and report to his people that 
the grant there will be Increased from $56,000 to |240,000. 

And the hon. iieiit>er8 ftn^m the two Gre3r8 {Ur, Patter- 
son and UTo Oliver) will be glad to know that the grant in 
the entire County of Grey will be increased fron $242,000 to 
1359,000 next year. 

Now, the City of Ottawa, I see, last year for all of 
its schools received $144,000, and this year it will receive 

Now, Ur, Speaker, we very seldom hear fron the City 
of Toronto in this House, but the hon. neidbers, theioselves, 
will be glad to learn, — there are several hon. members, 
including my friend from Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod), —in Toronto 
the totol prant will be ir.creaaed from $482,000, for all the 
schools, to no less tnon three and one half million dollars. 
I have a number of others here which I shall be very glad to 
give the hon. members later, but you will notice I have not 
■entioned cne county or victoria. 

UR. HOSIHD E. BROWN (Welland) : Uay I ask a question? 
ire these all arranged — I presume from these figures that 
have been thrown out these are arranged In ridings. The hon. 
lUnlster (Ur. Ifost) apparently haa the figures all down by 
ridings. (That is the purpose of that? 

UR. rooST: I would juat like to show to this House 
the importance of the magnitude of these grants, and for the 
benefit of my friend frora Welland (Ur. Brown), hla county 
received $92,000 last year, and this year it will receive no 
less than $343,000. 


- 961 . S-9-45. 

Mr. Frost. 

I do that for the purpose of brlagiag to tbo House 
the oagultude of this taxation which InTolvea upward of 
eighteen million dollars. Take, for instanee, ae I said, — 
1 have never been accused of forgetting Victoria County, 
— and I iK>uld like to refer to my own town of Lindsay. I 
received a paper this morning to say the tax rate in the 
Town of Lindsay, which is a typical town, (and again I say 
that the people of Lindsay never admit that,) but it is a 
typical town of less than ten thousand population, in which 
the tax rate will be reduced by no less than seven mills. 
Last year there was another mill which we gave in this 
House which will mean that the educational cP^ants* reduction 
in the Town of Lindsay will be no less than eight mills. 

The tax rate, without taking the two mills which we 
reduced it, was forty-five and one half mills, and this year 
it will be three«four and a half mills. 

For example, a young fellow comes home from the war 
and wants to buy a house assessed at four thousand dollars. 
iThat does he receive? Eight dollars a thousand, he will get 
twenty- four dollars in his pocket reduction in taxes, which 
is Just like giving to that fellow a month's rent to apply 
on a house of that size. 

I would like to say I h«ve been Internatad to note 
in the Town of Lindsay tuere have been two new industries 
located there in the last two or three weeks. 

I only say that to point out the fact that by ^e 
municipalities ayalllng theBMelves of this sub or sums that 
are ooming to thsn, great benefits can come to their people. 

Now, Ur. Speaker, In approaching the problem a thor- 
ough study has been made of our whole provincial tax struc- 
ture. Then I say "thorough" I want to say it has been thor- 


irsasET e 

. 96£ - 3-9»45. 

oush, and not only tbe Trea«\irer. but hit staff for oontbs 
past hava baan studying tba dlffioixlt and oooplloatad prob- 
lam. Extenalva rafer«nc« was nade to this matter in tha 
Budgat spaecii of a yaar aeo. :.'ituout eitioaptin^ a ce&«iiad 
azamlnatlon of tba ri^ta which tha Provinoa derlvaa from 
tha Brit •♦ah r!orth Ajiwrlea Ant. it Ic mcll to renertser that 
our Ci>uct.i&uticii cldoriy iioi^^ ^ti% >o;3ers cr tba prcvinoes, 
which are tha powers of this ASuembXy, aod reserves to the 
central e^oyerniaent all powers not especially delegated to 
provincial authority. 

our powers as a legislature cannot be ecnpared with 
the broad taxation and fiscal powers of the Dooihioxi Parlla- 
nant. V7e have no control of banking and currency, which are 
purely Dominion functions. Ttie Dominion hae oosvlete control 
of indirect taxation, jmything which we might levy which 
would have the operation of taxing indirectly is ultra viraa 
in this Legislature. The powers of the Province to raise 
money are limited generally to the following:- 

1. Direct taxation 

8. Borrowing money on the sale credit of tha Provinoa. 

3« The managamant and sale of public londa and natur- 
al resources. 

4. The imposition of licenses and the carrying on of 
certain ooDoercial enterprises such aa tha Liquor 
Control Board of Ontario. 

In the pressnt difficult tioss «e are confronted on tha 
one haad with making, for the reaaons stated, a very great 
change in real estata taxation which involves a very large in- 
oroase in the amount of the provincial budr;et. At the sooe ti 
we imve tuu desirasiiity of baiancxnc <3ur budget, in the XMoa 
of this we are not blind to the fact that aa havs inaqualitiea 
and iniuatices in our tax system which we believe if not reme- 
died sill materially hamper the davelopment of our country. 

- 963 - 3-9-45. 

Ur. Proat. 

restrict Induatxy, leasan amployoent and dlmlnlah and randar 
leaa buoyant the rerenuea of not only thla COTernnent but all 
the othor goTemaants In the Donlnlon of Canada, ajb atated 
before, ve think that thla la one of the vary Isportant 
oattera ahloh ahould be conaldored by o Domini on -Provincial 
conference, the urgency of irtiloh cannot be over-emphaalzed. 
We have nade a very careful aurvey of further aouroea of 
revenue which could be derived by voy of direct taxation, 
which include auch as euausenont tax, further taxea on tobacco 
and llquora, meala tax and sales tax. In taking the long view 
of our situation the qaostlon preoents Itself as to whether 
we ahould uopose new taxes prior to a Doolnion-Provlnclal ccn- 
feronce w*ilch may radically alter the tccc atructure generally. 
On the other hand we are faced with the necessity of 
consorving our creaix, oy baxoaolng our budget, stabilizing 
our net debt, which the hon. members will recollect has been 
runninr in the nelrrhbourhood of half a billion dollars, and 
reducing the same when possible. I stated previously in thia 
Houae that as aoon aa the Dominion-Provincial tax agreement 
la terminated that wa should make provlaion for the orderly 
retlremant of our present net debt and provide that all 
further borrowings ahould be retired within the llfetlxaa of 
the works for which they were Incurred. This, of course, la 
predicated on balanced budgeta. The great Increase In our 
provincial budget this year, brought about by educational and 
real estate taxation refoxraa, together with the clear limita- 
tions in taxation li^poaed upon ua, ralaoa the queatlon of 
deficit financing to carry ua throu(^ thla difficult period. 
There are oonditlona of emergency In whloh deficit financing 
would have Justification. I ta not opposed to the proper 
uae of credit, it la a real aaaet whloh In the belief of 

- 964 - 3-9-4S. 

Itr, Proat. 

thla Oovernmont aliould be ooa««rT«d aad In o«m« of n«o«i-> 
■Ity should b« soundly us«d. I r«p««t ihat I said laat 
year. Our oredit is a great tferr vhich «e should protect 
and oonserre at all times for use in tiiaas of eaargeaoy 
such as «e shall Inevitably faoe at the terolnation of 
this war when eound expansion and flcvoiopment can be under- 
taken. It nieht be argued that the throat adjustcant which 
we are now underta&lng, and which is designed to create 
better conditions following the war, is an etaergency in which 
we would be Justified in using our credit. I sa not dis- 
counting this argunent. At the same time I feal that this 
is a method to which we should not take recourse unless 
absolutely necessary. It has therefore been decided that 
we should presently adhere to oar resolve to avoid, except 
where absolutely necossaxy, the creation of new debt. The 
Oovemment feels that in sound development schemes of the 
futiire that we are going to require our oredit for the con- 
struction of roads and publie works which will tend to open 
up and develop the Province. V7hen this tiiae comes we hope, 
as stated, that the repayment of the same will be on an 
orderly basis within tho lifetime of the works for which it 
was incurred. 

Uay I here briefly refer to some of the developaant 
scheoos vaica are lu coabsiqplation for postwar days. The 
whole fiold of conservation and flood control ia being sur- 
Toyed and investir:ated. Plans have bean preoarsd which will 
lead to u.e deveiopjoont of the roads of the trovinca and tna 
opaning to our peopla and to the vlaitors whom we >jiow will 
flock horo. totho natural beauties nf our TTQvlnoe - fhB 
Tourist indus:;ry alone will bring to <jatario aany alillons of 
dollars annually in new business. Very extensive Hydro 

- 965 - 3-9-4S. 

Ur. Frost, 

Eleetrle derelopiMnta ar« in contemplation. Our forettt will 
be oonaerved and uaed in auoh a aay aa to provide not onlj 
CGQstantly expanding fielda of enploynent, but new wealth 
which will inure to the benefit of our people. Increased 
exiMnditurea will be made in conserving the fish and wild 
life of the Province from which we can get great benefita. 
Plana are In preparation for the kinlng Industry upon liileh 
we confidently count to contribute greatly to the wealth of 
the Frovinoea 

In facing the problem, the Government first decided 
that a sound stop was that of practising the old homely virtue 
of economy. Every effort has been —i d to avoid unzB cessary 
overhead coats. The Govemoent has constantly checked 
governmental expenditure in an endeavour to constantly keep 
the sane under review, with results which I shcai endeavotir 
to report upon in detail. One of the heaviest charges upon 
the Provincial Government is the payment of interest or our 
Net Debt, which I said has been running in the neighbourhood 
of five hundred million dollars. 

It is customary to refer to the cost of servicing the 
Public Debt and expenditures required to procxire Foreign 
Exchange in order to meet the interest charges as well aa th« 
debt maturities on those debts which are payable in currency 
other than that of the Dominion of Canada as "uncontrollable 
expenditures". This is true only in part, as will be xinder- 
stood on an examination of the figurea which I am about to 
gl-ve to the House. 

Such expenditures are "uneontrollable" to the extent 
that commltflMnts have bean made by borrowing on the credit of 
the Province and issuing bonds with eoupons bearing fixed 
rates of Interest. Uoroover, these bonds which contain a 





. "aei 


to i 

- 9M - 8-9-45. 

12r. Froit. 

provision ontltllng the holder at hit option to payoent in 

ADerican Funds require the purehnae of new York ^changa 

at a cost of 11 par centun preaiua, but, I am glad to 

state, v;e have been able to reduce the cost of interest by 

a very considerable aiaount. 

For example: 

The net cost of Interest and Korei^ llzchange for 

the fiscal year ended Tiarch SI, 1943. amounted 

to --------- ^ 22,945,087.02 

ror the 'iscal y ar ended Uarch 31, 

1944, .13% year, 22,182,488.74 

and for the fiscal year which will end 

on the 31st Uarch, 1945, this month, 

the coat will be ----- - 20,682,600.00 

Thi? shows an estimated reduction for the year 

which ends on tiarch 31st, 1945, of - - $ 1,499,888.74 

This inpreasive accomplishment is the result of 

following sound policy, especially in respect to ra-finaneing 

Biaturing obligations. Three factors are aorthy of soma 


1. Debt Reduction. 

At Indicated in my Budget Address delivered on the 

16th Uaroh last year, the Funded Debt of the Prorlnea 

as of the 31st Idaroh, 1944, showed an actual decrease 

for the fiscal year of - - - - $ 701,567.16 

Treastiry Bllla outstanding were deoreasad 

by -----$ 40,000,000.00 

This year it is expected that the Funded 

Debt will be decreased br the sum of 27,109,209.98 

Last year 1 want Icto aome aetail in the various types 

of debt and so on. Z Infbmad the bon. membara that Info] 

tion would be available concerning thaaa points. 

Now, for the information of the House, I table 



QQ^.i Jfr 


QontroT^ art 

^ -T ■ - ■ ' '_'.*T 'I} i^ f) 

OJ - _- „ 

babmfl a 

-acno'rni Jsfi? aiocfr. 
Oi. ijr; 

> 967 - 9-9-40. 

a itatenttnt giving a d« tailed uvamnrj 

of the eatloated change in the Funded 

Debt for the fiscal ]rear to end on 

linroh 31, 1945, ahowing a net decrease 

of- ---- I 27,109,209.* 

(Page No. 966 follows.) 


- 068 - 



Detailed SumiMiry of Sstimated Changes for the 
Flecul Year to end on Uarch 31, 1945. 

A3 a- ^h 31, 1944 (after deduotin^ SinJclng Funds) 1609,703,362.61 
A L D ale of Debentures :- 

TFF - 3 1/2% - Due Oct. 15, 1973 - - - 

RZ - 2 1/2 - Due Aug. 1, 1945-54 - - 

RAA - 1 1/2 - Due Uarch & Sept. 1,1946-47 

T/ <F1 - 3 1/4 - Due Jan. 1, 1962 - - - 

TI - 4 1/2 • Due Not. 1, 1952 - - - 

TFB - 3 1/8 - Due Jan. 1. 195r - - 

T/ JlFC - 3 1/4 - Dub Jan. 1. 1962 - - 

t 2,000,000.00 








L 5 S S - Redemptions : - 

m - 2 


- Due May 1, 





$ 1,260,000.00 

AL -- 4 

- Due Uay 15, 






AP - 4 


- . Due Uay 15 , 






AS - 4 

Due June 1, 






RK - 1 


- Due June 1, 






RD - 2 


- Due Aug. 1, 






RX - 1 


- Due Sept. 1, 






AG - 4 


• Due Sept. 1, 






RY - 1 


- Due sept. 15, 






AK - 4 


- Duo Nov. 1, 






RQ - 2 

- Due Nov. 1, 






BS - 2 

- Due Nov. 1, 






AH - 4 


- Due Deo. 1, 






AJ - 4 

- Due Jan. 1, 






AR - 4 


> Due Jan. 15, 






RB - 2 


- Due Jan. 15, 


$ 41,389,000.00 

Railway Aid 

i Certificates 






Increase In ulnking Fund and other 
Investioents - Current Year - 



Satlnated as at Uarch 31, 1945 (after deducting Sinking Funds] 

I 862.594,152.88 

Total Redemptions and Increase In Sinking 

Funds .--..-.,... $ 51,009,209.96 

L g S 3 - New Issues ------ 


I 27,109,209.98 





- 969 - 9-9-46. 

Mr. Fro«t. 

Treasury Bllla which were outstanding in the anount 

of $3,000,000.00 at the end of the last fiscal yaar 

have all teen paid off. Therefore, i::e ae crease in 

the Funded Debt and the Treasury Bills Debt for the 

current fiscal year anount to - - $30,109,209.96 

8« I give you ine particulars of mblic Financing for the 

fiscal year which ends on the 3l8t instant :>« 

On August 1, 1944, there oatured $10,000,000.00 of 

debentures issue '^ on Aueust 1, 1937, and bearing a 2^ 

interest rate. These debentures were sold at a rate of 

97.79 or a cost of EoS&^v At maturity they were refunded by 

a $10,000,000.00 issue of Zi% debentures dated August 1, 1944, 

and maturing $1,000, 000»00 in each year from 1945 to 1954. 

The debentures issued on August 1, 1944, were sold at a rate 

of 100.125 and cost over an averaged nmturity 2.485(. 

On September 1, 1944, there matured $18,325,000.00 

of debentures payable in Canada, London and New York dated 

September 1, 1924, and bearing a 4^ interest rate. The 

debentures were sold at a rate of 94.8697 to cost 4.90570j(. 

At maturity they were refunded as follows :■> 

li% Provincial Issue -----$ 8, OX, 000. 00 
Hydro-Repayment of Advances . - - 8,176,575.13 

Consolidated Revenue Fund - - - 2.146.424.87 


The Province issued to refund in part the above matur- 
ity lii% debentures payable in New York in the aacmnt 
of $6,000,000.00 dated Septeaber 1, 1944, and aatux^- 
ing at the rate of $2,000,000.00 on Uaroh 1, and 
Septeaber 1, 1946, and Uaroh 1, and Septeit>er 1, 
1947. This refxinding Isaue was sold at a price to 
cost 1.67)(. The Hydro Electric Power Cosmlssion of 
Ontario issued, to refund in part their repayaent 

taeri juiae. 


YCf be 






- 970 - S-9-49. 

Mr. frost. 

of $8,176,573.13, debenture* in the eaount of 
$6,000,000.00 dated Soptenber 1, 1044, Tjay- 
•bl« In New York and bearing an mtereat rata 
of 1^» TixiB Hydro Issue was sold at a prio« 
to cost 1.70j(o 

(Pa^e No» 971 follows.) 

- 971 - 

Ur. Fro«t. 

3. I am abi« to Inforu tlxv iiuaue tbat intereat 

olMtrgea for tb* fiacal year vlUoh begina on 
ikpril Iftt »lii ahu« a further reductiaa. 
In pianniog tno fiuanoiax progru.j&e of tna 
Governmant lu auofi a way aa %o aeoura tba 
Lenefita of further retiuctlon in Intereat, I 
now iuiorsx tnc iiuuoa or one iruad«iviiu& in 
refunding ahlcti vUl aave aora tJtkan #£25,000.00 
In Interoat charffes niixt yeur - In July of 
x^42 tna aoveiwutnt oi th« oay borrowed 
115,000,000.00 in New Yorlc to aaet maturing 
obligations. Tha coupon rate waa 2^^; tha tent 
of tha loan was ii yeurs; and the prica ob- 
tained for the debenturea reaulted lu tha 
noney costing 35( par annum. I am not at all 
criticising thiti tranaaction, which, in viav 
of tha allltury and world political aituation 
that existed at that time, w^s, insofar aa 1 cam 
Judge, an aavantagaoud transaction for tha 
people of tha Province of Ontario. These bonda, 
baaring a coupon rata of 2^ and amounting to 
#15,000,000.00 mature on July 1st next and wMt 
be mat anu either paid off or rafundad In tha 
United oiatea. To pay them off in aaarlcan Funda 
would entail a coat in foreign i.xoh«nge of 11)1, 
amounting to f 1,650. 000.00. It has baan da- 
cidad to refund the whole loan in liaw York, 
and 1 am gratified - and I am aura that tha 
House will be ^ratified to kr.ow > that wa 
have bean auiu lo ruiuna tois loan at an inter- 
eat cost of allghtly laaa than one-half of 




Mr. ft out. 

thttt of lh9 exi«tiu« loan onut la 194£. TIm 
new loan instead of b««arliig a ooupon of i^ 
per annua, will carry a ooupon of lt)( per annuB. 
Tbe ooet of the oouey will k>e laoa tnan lij( 
per annua, If I raaaaber right it aill ba 1.45)(, 
and the actual uaTing during the currency of 
the loan will be in excess of 4226,000 per 
annum. This one transaction in itself, re- 
sulting aa it does in an annual saying to tha 
taxpayers of Ontario of over #2£5,000 oarlcs a 
new. achieveuient in governioent financing by thia 
Province. Ii .•iiui.caCes tne high credit stand- 
ing of the trovinco and I hope that the House will 
ttgree that some credit is due the Governsient 
01' the Province for the very advantagaous results 
of refunding a loan of $15,000,000.00 curing 
these very unsettled tino difficult tines. 
Mr. Speaker, 1 shoaia non iixe to report for 
the year 1944-45, — that is for the year end- 
ing Uurch 51st, 1945. 
I shouia uov ixKc to report to the House on the bus- 
iness for the year tenainating on March 31st. Tha aaaa 
will be based on ten months* actual business and two Bonths* 
forecast. In so uoiog i suoaia like to reier to the Public 
Accounts of this province which have been published ana ara 
now in the handa of the Members. These Accounts were not 
available at as early a data as 1 should have liked owing 
to the alaost inauperuble difficulties of printing tha sasa 
under wartime conditions. aS I stated last year, there ara 
many iiuproveaents concerning the presentation of the Public 
Accounts which ara in my opinion acsirabla. 

- 973 - 9*«*45 

kr. rrost. 

Now 1 ataoul<l say to the House that the dlfflcultlea vhloh 
we had In thla regard are the same In our slater Provlnoe 
of <^uebeo, which have been received within the last few 
days. Ours were a few days earlier. l>uoh ImproveBents 
at the rresent time are impossible due to Shortage of 
equijnent anu sKixled help. It is therefore not feaiibla 
at the lao&ent to undertake a radical cbaoge la our account- 
ing systemc 

The Province of Onturio Savings Offices must 
not be confused with banks. The Province has no constlt- 
utlunal uathority to en^u^e lu canklng as such. The 
offices are aerely savings offices. We cannot uake loana, 
as such, I mean in the ordinary course. The Province is 
conducting at the present time twenty-three branches in 
which i& deposted, as of December 31, 1944, in excess of 
$36,000,000. The deposits show an increase of almost 
$4,000,000 for the year ending that date. Again the Pro- 
vince of Ontario in its desire to assist in the prosecution 
of the war has encouraged the depositors in Saving Offices 
to inveut in Victory Bonds, with the result that cepoaitors 
from their savings have purchased in excess of six and 
three-quarter million dollars in the purchase of thla great 
security. Despita this the deposits are ateadily in- 
creasing and It is confidently expected they will ba 
much higher dunug the year 1945* 

The expenditures of tne i>epertcient of Highways 
have, as incicatoa m iaut year's Duaget, oeen restricted 
due to wartime conditions. The l>epartment haa followed the 
wise policy of avoidln^r expensive extensions and instead 






88; ■ '.--J 


, avBfi 


- «74 - 8-9-49 

Mr. rrost. 

has oono«ntrated on the type of work which would aitsist 
the greatest number of our people. The a^ioultural 
ooiumunities have benefited greatly by the ayoldance of 
heavy expenditures on King's hi^ways and tha paynant 
to our rural munlolpalitles of larger amounts for county 
and township roads. The scarcity of r;ravel in South- 
ern Ontario Is becoming a serious question. In order 
to conserve gravel and save the surfaces of existing 
x-oads approximately 200 miles of main gravel roads were 
burfaced lAut year with light bituminous pavement. 

I think that is a service which the Uembers 
from the xi.uiiig8 will be satisfied with. It has been 
done with the great knowledge ana experience of the 
engineers of the Department In such work. This work 
has proven a very great success. Plans are being pre- 
pared to the end that very great extensions of highways 
■ay be built without excessive expenditures. 

This year has been exceptionally diri'lcult be- 
cause of heaTy anow fall and high winds. The facilities 
of our snow-flghtlng equlcnent have been taxed to the 
limit. Until thi3 winter it uas been almost inpousible 
to obtain parmlsslon for the purchase of new equipment. 
Owing to the fact, however, that our existing equlpoant 
has been conserved to the limit and, with aoae priorities, 
the Department has been able to do an excellent Job. 

Hie Meabars will be Interested In agricultural 


The liquidation of loans granted under tha agri- 
cultural development and now administered by the CosBalssloner 
of Agricultural Loans is proceeding on a satisfactory baals* 

i^ ol 


- 975 - 3-9-45 

Mr. rrost. 

lliny LiortgHgoru nave besn payiog off their loaiui before 

The number of current loans as of Lecember 3l8t, 
1945 numbered 15,553, mat wus u yeur ago, representing a 
total Indebtedness, luoluulng prlnoipal, interest and 
sundries of $50,663,6*79 QQ. »a of Locember 31, 1944 
current loans numbered l<:,od6, mi in u total luaebtodness 
amounting to $:i:7, 117, 502.76. Throughout the year ending 
December 31, 1944 a total of 967 loans IwTe been paid off 
with total repayments on all loans amounting to |3, 546, 177 .SB* 

AS of December 31, 1943 the number of properties 
re-possessed and held by the Board numbered 63, represent- 
ing $213,349.27. This nunbcr has been reduced and as of 
December 31, 1944 the number was only 46, representing 
$119, 709.79, inaicutiu.; a reduction of 37 properties amount- 
ing to over $93,000. 

It would interest the Hou;ie to know that a year 
ago 42 applications hud been heard under the provisions 
of the Karm Loans Adjustment Act. The total number 
of applications since the inception of the Act to Dec- 
ember 31, 1944 numbered 321, and the reuuctiuns grunted 
by the courts for principal, interest and sundries aaoant- 
ed to $181,665.46 as of that date. 

in cases vnere furueis are laboring uuacr an im- 
possible buroen of aebt they arc encouraged to avail thaa- 
selves of the provisions of this ^ct ia order that such 
loans may be re-arrcuat^cd on a siaisfactory basis. 


Nnw, with the permission of the Bouse, I desira 
to table the a ta tenant of the Gross and Net Ordinary Ex- 
penditure for the fiscal year April 1st, 1944, to March 



k - 976 - 5-0-45 

CC6 |fe>. ffMt. 

3lBt, 1945, consiatiog of ten montafl' actual payaants 
and two uontha* foreoaat, tUe total Kttt Kxpandltura 
being $115,9U9,400.00. 



- 977 - 

Intcria Statemtnt of Ordinary Bzp«ndltur« 
Fiscal T«ar Apill 1, 1944 - March 31, 1946 
10 mcntha Actual - 2 months Foraeaat - 12 montha 






of Revenue to 







Attorney General 







Qana & riaharlaa 

















Landa and Pore at a 













Uunlclpal Affairs 



Planning L Development 



Prime Minister 



Provincial Auditor 



Provincial ieoratary 




Provincial Treasurer 




Public Welfare 



Public forks 










Public Debt-Ii *ereat,&c 
Foreign Bzchang* 
Sinking Fund Inatal- 

nenta k Railway Aid 












Advance payaent of an 
ajDount equal to approx- 
imately thirty- four per 
eent of the eatiaated 
1945 General Legiala- 
tive School Grant a 8.808.000 



124,720,900 8,811,500 115,909,400 



'•O - 976 - 3-9-45 

Uz . Frost c 

With the p»ml88lon of the Houae, I tuble the 
statement of the Gross ana Net Oroltiary lievenue for the 
fiscal year April 1st, 1944, to March ;51st, 1945, con- 
slating of ten uonths' actual receipts and two months* 
estlffluted receipts, the total Net Kevenue flUDOunting to 



oi i^ix 


laaiajiij t. 

- 979 - 

iDtvrlB dtat«B«nt of Ordintrj B«yenu« 
riseai T«ar April 1, 1944 - Miroh 31 » 1940 

10 nonths Actual - 2 months Forcottst - 12 months 


A^ri culture 

Attorney General 


Qum k. Fisheries 


Highways : 

Main Office k Branches 
Gasoline Tax Branch 
liiscellaneous Pemits 
P .noh 
Motor Vehicles xiranoh 



Lands and Forests 



Municipal Affairs 

Provincial Secretary 

Provincial Treasurer: 
Main Office - Subsidy 
Liquor Control Board 
Controller of Revenue 
Juccession Duty 
Corporations Tax Sub- 
Income Tax 3ubTention 
Corporations Tax 
Income Tax 
Race Tracks 
Security Transfer Tax 
LaxK! Transfer Tax 
Law Stamps 
Motion Picture Censorship k 
Theatre Inspeotloa Branch 
King's Printer - Ontario 

Province of Ontario Savings 






of Revenae to 















































































Public Welfare 
Public lories 

Public Debt ' Interest, A:c 
Foreign Exchange 



if SUM ; 


117,263,500 1,239,700 116,0£3,e00 


6ft. 691. 600 






124,635,300 8,811,500 116,023,800 

oirnsvefi vtc;- !r3?si-£ nJ-is^ti: 

BT; 'igA 



.aT I9l-'- -.. 

xc xT 5a 6 J 

. _toM 



. 960 - 3-9-45 

kr. rrost. 

S U U U A a Y 

With tlie permlstion of the Houfie, I table • 
Sumiuary of tbe sttttementa of Ordinary Expenditures and 
xievenuesehioh, by reaaon of a careful administration at 
our revenues, shows ttvut, after providing for Sinking 
Fuuu reqaiitiuenis, I aja ulXi tj rei^ort an Interib ;>ur- 
pius of $8,92^2,400. Tui^ loagniflcent surplus oakas it 
poasiblo to give to our tuxpaycrs fro--* this yeur»s roT- 
enueii u large aaount in dirtict uunicipal tax rouuction. 
I propose to submit to the Hout>e Suppleiuentary Estimates 
authorizing the ucvance paysent to the school Boards of 
^ui^tlQ of an ajaouni equal to approxiiuateiy thirty-four 
per cent, of the 1945 general legiulative grants. This 
sum, which amounts to $8,808,000 will be paid to the 
jchool Boaras immediately the Supplementary Estimates 
are approved. This disbursement from the surplus for 
the year will leave un undistributed' balance after the 
uQvance payment to the oohool Boards of $114,400. 

I am sure that the Houae will readily authorize 
the aiiitribution of the surplus to the School Boards. 
By the payment of the sum of 16,806^000 in advance we 
set a precedent and by this we hope to give an added bene- 
fit to the fflunicipalitiea in saving theci fr^iu ^..v vU,ffioul' 
ties ana oxpenae of extra financing involving the payuent 
of larf;e suns of interest In unticipution of taxes which 
they are bo receive iu Lae autumn. e.'^k,!:^ iuutiioipulity 
in Ontario will aave lar(^e amounts in interest alone. 

The Summary which I have Juat referred to I 
now file. 





- 961 - 

S U M M A R T 

Ordinary Rerenue and Ordinary ]fixp«ndltur« 
fiscal Tear April 1, 1^44 - Marob 31. 1946 
10 ooatha Actual - £ oontha Foraoast - Ik, aontba 

Nat Ordinary Reranua 

Less: Net Ordinary iSxpandlture (before 

providing for Slnlclnt; Funds .Maturing 
Railway Aid Certificates and Advanoa 
Payasnt of School Grants) 

I 116, OSS. 800.00 


Surplus (before providing for Sinking Funds 

Maturing Railway Aid Certificates and 

Advance I yotent of Sobool Grants) ) 14 ,£33, 900*00 



Provision for Slnicing Funds and 
Maturing Railway Aid Certificates 

(before providing for Advance Payment 
of School Grants 


S. 311. 600. 00 

I 8»9££.400.00 

Advance payaoent of an aoiount equal to 
approximately thirty- four per cent of 
the estimated 1945 General Ldgialativa 
School Grants 

Balance of Surplus after providing for Advance 
Payment of an amount equal to approximately 
thirty- four per cent of the estimated 1945 
General Legislative School Grants ) 



With permission of the House. I desire to table an 
interim statetoent of the Cross and Net Capital Heceipt3 for 
yhe fiscal year April L> t . 1944. to karcb bist. 1945, being 
len mjnths* actual and two months* foraoast* The total cap- 
ital receipts are $34,669,600. gross. 




'-d) tui 


eoaBvjbA reeeJ 


c CUB lo ^aaffiXB? 

leq ax 

Jlai^fc- - 


- Mfi - 

Interim StatwMot of Capital R«o«lpt 
Flsoal Year April 1. 1944 • Maroh 31. 1946 
10 months Actual - 2 montha Foraoast - 12 montha 





Laxwla and Forests 


Municipal Affairs 

Prime llinister 

Provinoial Treasurer 

Publio Welfare 

Public Vorlca 





of Receipt a 
to Payraents 










12,766,000.00 12,766.000. 















34,869,800.00 12,766,000. 22,103,800.00 

And, kr. ^ipeaker, witli the perulsaion of the House, I 
desire to table a statement of Gross and Met Capital Bayaenta 
for the fiscal year April Xst, 1944 to March 31st, 1945, being 
ten months* autuul and two months* forecast, the total pay- 
ments being 920,098,600. ^rous 

^n f <x*^*P 





/~< r» /-^ /\ i*v t^ <\ 

). iiJ iq , 

8 y^i. » ij 


TA XaqloiiiulA 

•iyi i> d B e*ii xa x •. 

eiBlXeW I 


. 969 - 3-9-45 

Mr. rroat, 

Fiscal Tear April 1, 1944 - March 31, 1945 

10 montfaa Actual - 2 montiia Forecast - 12 montiia 

Qroua At;:iicution Met 

Capital 01* rieceipia Capital 

DeB^rtaent Fayaenta t o paymenta 

1 — r 


Agriculture 249,000.00 249,000.00 

Hlgbwaya 3,910,400.00 3,910,400.00 

Vritm Lllnlstcr 926,000.00 925,000.00 

Fz'dv ^uCi«ii Treasuzrr - 

• i., 892, 400. 00 1,892,400.00 

Public Welfare 12,766,000.00 12,766,000.00 

Public »forJca 555.600.00 355.800.00 

20.098.600,00 12. 766. 000,00 7.332.600.00 

With the permission of the House, 1 now table atate- 
■enta allowing the Orosa Debt, the Indirect Debt and the Met 
Debt of the Province. 

The House will Le «la4 to icr.ow that the Oroaa i)eb% 
will iiuum u aecrease for the yeui- ending Mtu'Ch 31at, 1945 of 
$16,420,350.72 while the Net Debt from which we have offer- 
ed ao much will ahow an estimated deoreaa* of $1,060, 878 .29 • 

to a 


pRoymcK OF oitTAaio 



Or«at Daot as at Maroh 31. 1944 I 666.527.963.39 

a'stloatad Gross Dsbt as at Maroh 31,1946 64e.107.61g.67 

aatinatad D«crsass for tbs fiscal ysar I 16.4£0.360.7£ 

to and on Maroh 31, 1946 

Qross Dsbt Dacraasad by ;- 

Surplus - 
Surplus on Ordinary Aooount - - - ) 114,400.00 
RatiraoMnt of Railway Aid 

Cartifioataa iy,47b.29 

Sinicin^ Fund Provision 5.^92.000.00 !5,4£5.e76.29 

Discoutit on Dabanturas.ato. . writtan off - - - 994,700.00 

Xsraings on 3inicin«s Fund Invaatmants- - ... - 16.000.00 

Loan Rapayaents - 

Hydro-iiflaotrio Po.var Coounisaion of 

Ontario ---- ^ i) ,676.800.00 

A^ioultural Davalopmant 3oard. 3.409,100.00 
Loana to Munioipalitiaa, etc. (Nat ) 197,700.00 13,282.000.00 
Oaoraasa in Cash in Banks- ........... 4,003,172.43 

Daoraasa in Incoma Liabilitias --------- 70,000.00 

lacraasa in Resarvaa (Nat) .--_-_-. . g, 700. 00 


Gross Debt Inciaaaad py: - 

Capital Oisbursaaants - 
Higbways, Public Buildings. Public Works atc.| 5. £66. 200. 00 
Laas Capital Hacaipts ----------- 233.000.00 


Paymant ra Quarautaad Dabanturas (Nat) - - - 91.400.00 

Discount on Dabanturas. ate. issuad duririg yaar. 30,000.00 

Co-oparativa Markating Loans (Nat Inoraaaa) - - 219,500.00 


Sstimatad Dacraass for tha year to end on 

March 31, 1945. I 18. 420, 360. 7£ 

oeG ;tcfeQ bbo-:! 

i. •££! 


^cv ?. &efi«TceO fca.-r 




C«atirig«nt Llabillti«s, Beoda, ato*. luaraotaad by tba ProTinoa 

Istlaatad aa at March 31. 1946 


aa par Publio Acoainta, Marob 31, 1944 I l£8,4S6.e3e.43 


New Ouaraataaa ar laoraaaaa for tha 
fiacal yaar to and aa March 31. 
1945 - 

Parle Coauaisaiana | 3*000,000.00 

Powar Ceaiaiaaioii 17,600.000.00 20.600.000.00 

I 143.966.636.48 


Priacipal Maturitlaa radaatnad or to ba 
radaamad during '^lia flaoal yaar ta 
dod 9n March 31. 1946 - 

Ca-aparative Assoclatlona I 3.500.00 

MuQlclpalitlaa ^e,6^^.3A 

Parte Conunisaiaaa 3,1£6,600.00 

Pawor Cajiolsalaa 13,775,000.00 

Railways 136,000.00 

Sohaala 163,769.01 

Qai Tarsi tioa 113.616.50 17,345,307.66 

I 1£6,610.63C.68 

La as 

Siuklag Fuad Dapasits far tha fiscal yaaur 

to aad an March 31, 1945 £3,400.00 

Eatinatad Contingaat Liability af tha Provinca I 126, 587, 130. 68 

aa at March 31. 1945 


Xatiuiatad Cantingant Liability of tha 
Provinca as at March 31, 1J45..I I26,5e7.130.68 

Oontiogaat Liaoiiity of tha Prarioca 
aa at March M, 1944 I£3,466,e3e.43 

gati.Tiateci lacreaaa $ 8.131,£9£.16 

CI 6 - 966 - 3-9-4S 

Ur. Frost 

AS AT iUMGU 31. 1945 

Aa at March 31. 194 4 

Oroas U«bt I 666,527»963.39 

Leaa iievenua Proauoing and 

rtoalizttble Assata •. 184.034.399.51 

Nat Dabt I 482,493,563.88 

AS at Marcti 31. 1945 

£at loa ted Gross Dabt # 648,107,612.67 

Lass £atimated Revanua Producing 

and Hoalizable Assets $ 166.694.927.08 

Estimated Net Debt $ 481,412,685.59 

Kstiaated Decrease In Net L>ebt $ 1,080,878,29 

- 967 - 3-9-45 

Ur. Vroat 

■AYS Mliu MKaMS 194S-194e. 
The Problema Inherent in the preporutlon of 
a provxuciux uuu^et are, even in the uout luvdurauxe of 
tiznes, euoh ue to tax the ingenuity and reeourcefulnees 
and dincretion of those «hot»e responsibility it is to 
plan lue ii:ianciai progratjoe of a Province as large and 
important as la the ProTlnce of Ontario. Uuoh nor* 
difflcLilt 11 It in war time. ecpBclally in view of the 
resirictta economy lu wnicu we runctiou anu tne strict limi- 
tations arising from the conditions liaposed by th« 
iXminion-Prnvtrscioi tax agreement. 

i realize that the Members of this House are 
fully aware of conditions that affect the times In which 
we live and I have every confidence chat I nay count upon 
the wholesome goodwill and co-operation of all, in 07 
endeavour to present a sound and workable financial pro- 
gramme for the fiscal year which begins a,^il 1st, and part 
of which progranme involves the meeting of the cost 
of education which for the war years, say from 1939 to 
1944, repreaenteu the expenditure of sums racing from 
twelve to fifteen million dollars annually. Provision for 
meetiii.T the cost of educutica for tne year April 1st, 1945 
to kuiua oxut, 1946 i^ .^ .:. ..uie iu tuiu buuget, requiring 
the expenditure of 925,383,166.43. This large sum, 1 must 
emphasize, is in oaditioti to an advance payment for which 
1 propose to usX yuur sanction, und waich w: .1 be paid 
to all school authorities immediately, so that this ad- 
vance payment is in addition to the $25,383,168.43 that I 
have alreaoy mentxoxied. Moreover, tnia uavance payment 
of ^,608,000 will be paid by this Oovernmant laMdlately 
it Is authorized, and will be received by public and 

968 - 3-9-45 

Ur. ifrost. 

8«parttt« ttotaool autiiorlties of tnls Provliice, euob und 
•very on* of thAm, nnt latnr thun thn 31st day of this 
month of Kkroh, iw4&. 

I have ttirettdy referred quite exteauively to 
the matter of increased taxation. The GoTernaent has 
given full oonsideratioQ to this problem and has decided 
ihat In vie* of the coming Dominlon-lroYlnclal conference 
that it io undssirable to aud to a tax structure which 
we oeilBve in faulty, una therefore it has been oecided 
that nu new taxation of any kind will ue iiupa»ed« I 
am sure that the House will rejoice that not only will 
there be no increase in taxation but in fact great 
relief will be given to the real estate owners in Ontario 
by reason of a moat drastic reduction in municipal tax- 
ation. The Governuent has also been consoioas of its 
plod^e thut, in order to assist the owning and Itaprove- 
acax. of homes and farm lunas which are the very foundation 
of our society, at least fifty per cent, of the school 
taxes charged against real estate should be assumed by 
the i'rovince. It also remembers tnc pledge that was given 
that in every field of employment individual initiative 
would t« encouraged and hard work rewarded by reducing 
tuxes. Tne Hon. leader of the upposiiion referred to 
this the other day, 

i.ti. U. r. HJCPBURN (Elgin): kr. Jpeaker, nay I 
ask the Hon. kiuister will those new educational grants 
be borne by this ProYlncs? 

UH. tBOUT'. Yes, the munlolpalities will re- 
ceive between twenty-five and twenty-seven million dollars. 

Ve are confident that the people of Ontario will 
appreciate that the Qovernment, after eighteen months 


CC19 - 9B9 - 9-9-45 

Mr. FroBt, 

in offlo*, tias b««n able to ({Iva affaot to th08« 
pledge So 

It l8 with pleasure tliat I am nov enabled 
to plaoe on the reoorda the budget Forecast of Ordinary 
HeTenue, Ordinary Expenditure , Capital hecelpts and 
capital Payments for the flaoal year April l^t, 1Q45» 
to March 3l8t, 1946 ana to forecast a balanced Budget. 

- 990 • 

Budg«t Forecast of Ordinary Rarenua 
Fiscal Yaar April 1. 1946 - March 31. 1946 



Attorney General 


Qase and Fisheriea 


Highways : 

Ualn Office & Branches 
Gaaollne Tax Branch 
Viae. Permits Branch 
Motor Vehicles Branch 





Landa and Forests 

Municipal Affairs 
ProTlnclal Secretary 
Provincial Treasurer: 
Main Office • Subsidy 

Liquor Control Board 
Controller of Revenue Br. 
Succession Duty 
Corporation Tax 

InooxDe Tax Subvention 
Corporations Tax 
Income Tax 
Race Tracks 
Security Transfer Tax 
Land Transfer Tax 
Law Stamps 
Motion Picture Censorship &. 
Theatre Inspection Branch 
King's Printer- Ontario 

Province of Ontario Savings 


157, 056.00 






26, 608,290. &9 

SO, 000 o 00 

9 > 000. 000.0 










17, 912,600.00 












of Revenue to 







18,200.00 1,644,680.00 


26,608,290 59 

80; 000.00 

9 > 000^000. 00 












20,960, 480. 35 










314.200.00 314,200.00 

Public Works 

Public Debt 

iiiiSSiiSmiil ^l^^SOOjOO 66^091^^686^ 

48,000.00 3,000.00 48,000.00 
100.000.00 100,000.00 

Interest, Ice 

114,892,617.73 1,224,300.00 113,668,317.98 
6,742,800.00 6,742,500.00 

578.800.00 878.500.00 

m^jij^jijjTj g^jje^goo^ ijj^jjj^jjjig^ 

- 991 - 

Budget Forvoast of Ordinary tzp«ndltur« 
FHoel Year April 1. 1946 - Maroh 31, 1946 



Attorney Genaral 


Qaaa k. Flaherlas 





Landa and Foresta 


Lieutenant GoYernor 


Municipal Affairs 

Planning and 

Prima Minister 

ProTlnolal Auditor 

Provincial Secretary 

Provincial Treaaurar 

Public Walfara 

Public lorka 


Orosa ApplloatloD 
Ordinary of Ra venue to 
Expenditure Kxpandltura 


Ordl nary 


199,900.00 3,396,660.00 

23,383 ,168.48 


18,200.00 12,328,990.00 

























69,038,069.73 1,224,300.00 67,813,769.73 




9Se, 661.55 











Public Debt-Interest 
Foreign Bzchange 
Sinking Fund Inatal- 
Benta k Balleay Aid 
Certificates 5. 370. 300. PC 

6,742,500.00 19,345,400.00 
578,500.00 1,069,500.00 




7.321.000.00 25.765.200.00 
6.545.300.00 113.596.969.73 

. 992 - 

Budget fer«o«st of Capital Raoraiptt 
Fiaoal Year April 1. 1946 - Maroh 31. 1946 

Or««« Applioatioa fC«t 

Capital af Raoaipta Capital 

Dapartmant Baoaipta to Payaanta Raoaipta 

AgriouUura £,600.00 2»500.00 
Higkwaya 6.000.00 6,000.00 
Labour 640.000.00 840,000.00 
Laads aad Paraata 176,000.00 176,000.00 
Miaea 40,000.00 40,000.00 
Prima Ml" i^^«r 1,464,000.00 1.464,000.00 
Prarinoiai Treasurar 12,022,300.00 12,022,300.00 
Publio #folfara 

£7,674,600.00 13,036,000.00 14,638,800.00 

D4 - 993 - 

Budget Poreeast of Capital Pajraents 
riecal Year April 1. 194S - March 31. 1946 




of Receipts 
to Payments 





Qama and Fisheries 









Prime Vlnlster 



Prcvmcioi Tre-'^urer 3,063,500.00 


Public Welfare 



Public *crks 



la, 036, 000. 00 


' 994 ' iij.. rrott 

Mr. 3p«alnr, I now tabl« »ltb tb« pamissloo of 
the Hou8« u sunnary abovlng Batlnatad Ordinary Nat Ravenua 
|113,668»317.73, whloh laaa Ordinary Szpendlturaa and 
aftar making full provision for Sinking Fund raqulreiMnta 
and railway aid eartlfloatas, raaulta In a surplua foraoast 
for the coming fiscal year of $69,326. 

Budget Forecast 
Fi scal Tear April l.ltf45 - March 31.1946 

Net Ordinary Revenue f 113,668,317.73 

Leaa i^et Ordi ly Sjipendlture 

(before } -ovidlng for Jinking 

Funds and Maturing Railway Aid 

Cartifloates) 106. 286.689. 73 

Surplua (before providing for Sinking 

Funds and Railway Aid Certificates) | 5,439,628.00 

Less: Provision for Sinking 

Funds I 5,352,000.00 

Railway Aid Certi- 
ficates ie.30C.OO 5.370.300.00 

Surplus Forftoaat | 69.326.00 

At this time I should like to say that in achieving 
the reaults just outlined and which I know will be received 
with deepest satisfaction by every hen. member of this House 
that we are not In any way stinting the undertaking* of 
this prcviucQ eitaer in administrative, social or develop- 
mental services. 

Department of Agriculture 

The estimated erpendlturea for the current year 
are $5,965,800 The estimated expenditures for the c .. - 
year for this Department are $6, 116, 182 •75, a considerable 
Incraasa In order to assist our farmers to Tialntaln the 

- 995 - 

Kr. Frost 

pro4uotloo of food whleh It so n«o«ssaz7 In our war 
•ffort proTislon la baing aad* to carry on tha prasant 
aubaldlas for tha comln^r yaar. That naana that «a 
will pay hog, ohaasa and augar baat aubaidiaa, and «a 
art Baking prorlalon for thalr paynant* 

Qama and Flaheriaa 

For yaara It has baan contandad with graat 
mar It that this very Important ravenua producing 
Dapartmant has not raealTad sufflolant to carry on 
adaquatoly Its preTontatlve and oonaarTatlon aarvlcaa. 
Tha Govarnmaiit has recognlzad that thla la an arror 
and that the daplatlon of our great gama and flaheriaa 
asseta Is poor economy Indeed. This yaar an Inoraaaa of 
approximately $100,000 la being allotted to the Department 
to enable It to extend Its work . The sum being approprl' 
ated represents an Increase of approximately |170,000 
over the amount expended In tha year 1943. 

Health and Welfare 

Uore than $600; 000 Is being appropriated for 
these Departmenta In exceaa of their actual expanditurea 
for the yaar juat closing. The high standard of sarvlc* 
of the Department of Health haa been maintained In aplta 
of 669 enlistments In the Armed Forces, Including 90 
doctors and 62 nurses from the Department 'a ataff. 
Shortage of medical paraonnal throughout the ProTlnce 
la neceaaarlly rendering the work of this Department 
Bore difficult. 

In the Department of lalfara, llothera' Allov- 
ana«8 have been Inereaaed, and although the number of 
beneflclarlea haa been radueed, tha allawaAoaa hara 

- 996 - »-»-48 

Mr. Frost 

b««n inereaaed throu^out th« y«ar by |27Sy618, food 
allovanoes for rellaf reolpianta have baen inoreasad by 
Inaugurating a nutritional Baaauramant and discarding tba 
old Caoqpbell raport acala. Nina na« Day Kuraarlaa and 
IS Day Care oentres hsTo bean approred of during tba 

These figures » I think, will interest the 
hon. nenbers of the House ^ The expenditures for these 
two Departments In 1943, that is two years ago, ezoludlng 
relief, amounted to $16, 736, 004^86, while the expenditures 
for the year ering March 31, 1946, also excluding relief, 
total no less than $24, 162, 440 „ 00* 


The Sstlmates for the coming year are increased 
by $93,350, which is the largest increase in the history 
of the ProTince« This increase is necessary because 

of additional staff required for Hours of Aork and 

Vacation^Pay Act and the requirements aaauring higher 

standards of safety, health and welfare for industrial 

workers. The Department is also extending ita work 

with relation to full time vocational training for 

registered apprentices. In 1943, two years ago, the 

expenaitures, not inciuaing Youtn Training, amounted 

to 1306,322.03. The appropriation for the coming year 

amounts to $53e,581.S6< 


Thla Department la also s revenue producing 
Department for which plans for greatly extended ser-^ 
▼Ices have been made. Addltionsl spproprlatlons era 
being made to enable the Department to extend Ita sex^ 
vices despite the shortage of manpower. The expenditures 


- 997 - 3-9-48 

Ut. rroat 

In 1943 vera $380»036.64. Th« appropriation for tlia 
coming yaar la |81ft»000«00. 

Lanfla and Foraeta 

Thia la a mattar of aucta intaraat to tba ProTino* 
of Ontario. Tha foundaticna upon uhloh tha battaxvant of 
tha forestry of Ontario will ba laid oust ba mada during 
tba war years. Funds are tbareforo providad for oartain 
basic tblngs wblcb must ba dona now. Rasaarch work in 
aoil8» forest mcinageicant and land stuaioc vill ba carried 
on. Large scale axperlmect in the jse of the powerful 
inseetlclde ,D.T. will be carried out in tha Kipigon 
region to coo^bat the bud-worm r6/<i(^es. Funds are being 
provided for the new Ranger School and tha laboratory 
at Sault Ste. Karle for the study of forest protection 
froE insect enemies. Expenditures cf this Department 
for the year Just closing are |3, 160, 000. The appropria- 
tion is being Increased to no less than $3,600,000, an 
excess of $600,000 on tnat great department. 

The Hydro- Electric Power Commission 

During the present fiscal year the Hydro-Sla ctrlo 
Power Commission has resumed construction r>t rural lines 
on an extensive scale. Four hundred and tiiirty-tbree 
■Ilea of primary lines have been oonatructed with tha 
addition of about 10,000 rural cuatomers. At the and 
of 1944 the Commlaaion waa serving about 146,000 rural 
ouatoMn, inoludlag about 61,700 faxvars. Tbe primxy 
dlstributioB line aggragated mora thnn !'1,000 BUna. Fnr tha 
yaar 1944-194f>, Uio Coij union la plunnlng to eztond iU servioa 
to acMM 12,000 additional custoMurs, chiaflj by the coaatruotion 
of short axtanalona to axiatiag liaaa* Xha Provlnca 


- 998 - Ur. rroit 

plans to pay in grants In aid of such wark oerarlng ana- 
half of tha capital cost the sub of $1,000,000. In ita 
postwar plans the Comnlsslon la contemplating tha early ax- 
tenaion of the blaaaings of Hydra to tha great najority of 
our rural people, to not leaa than eighty par cant of thaa. 

Municipal Affairs 

I aa glad to tell the House that proTisiona hara 
been aada in tha Bstlnates of this Departnent for tha pay- 
sent of the one Dill aubsidy to every nunioipallty in 
Ontario. Thia ia in addition to the educational granta 
which have already been outlined. This involves an ex- 
penditure of $5,075,000.00. Furthermore the Dapartaant 
ia making provision thla year to pay a aubsidy to certain 
mining municipalities — I know that the hon. member for 
Cochrane and othera will be Interested In this — which in 
the opinion of the Uiulster have suffered a loaa of revenue 
by raaaon of increased Dominion taxation of mines. 


As has been atated, the Government feela that tha 
let of our teachers should be bettered. Last year tha 
Province raised its contribution to the Teacbera* and 
Inspectors' Superannuation Fund by paying aoiiar for dollar 
with the teachers. The contribution by each of the teeehara 
, V and tha GovBrnmant la .3^ per cent. The CovernQent now pro- 
poaaa that the contribution of each snali. oa 4 per cent. 
This, however, will enable the follawing benefits to b« 
extended to our teachers: 

1. The minimxuB pension may be inoreaaad 
from $365 to $500. 

2. Tha years of teaching required for full 
panaion shall ba reduced from forty to 
thirty-aix, which will ba of great aaaiat- 
anoa to thoae boya who have loat a lot of 
tlJM ovorsaaa. 

DDIO - «•« - 5-9-46 

Mr. Frost 

3. The OBZlmuc penslou may be looreated 
from $1250 to $1000. 

4« PacaxoDS zoay be permitted -- azia tola 
is of vital li^>ortenoe to the teaohlng 
profesaion '* up to 60 per cent of 
average aalarjr Inatead of 50 per cent 
to which It «aa reduced a few feara ago. 

5. Provi . - ; . ^ " •- . n of 
the ;:'-:.._ . i-^ '! . .<5^ '. ►• -• -r to 
hla wldov 

I ahall now sunmarlze some of the sol lent faaturea 
Of thla Budget: 

1. For thn fiscal year Just ending we hare 
ac - 4 a surplus of |e.9£2»400, which 

pe. the Immediate payiaent In advance 

to the Jchool Boards of Ontario of an 
amount of $6,808,000 .00, leaving a net 
surplus of 9114,400.00. 

2. We will decrease the Gross Debt of the 
Province for the year Just ended by 

3. We will decrease the Net Debt of the 
Province for the year Just ending by 

4. We adhere to a strictly pay-as-you-go 
policy and are budgeting for a moderate 
wartime surplus next year. 

5* We have fully implemented the pledge 
concerning 50 per cent of the cost 
of education. With respect to No. 5 
I would suggest that my good friend 
from Brant (Ur« Nixon) move hia seat 
over here because 1 remember what ha 
said last year. In No. 5 we have 
fully implemented the pledge respecting 
the cost of education. 

UR. NIXON: I will believe it when I see it on ay 
tax bill. 

UR. FBOdT: It la very difficult to convince soae 

people, but It will help to convince them when they see the 

Supplementary Sstinates. Then follows No. 6: 

6« We have provided for the extension 
of administrative, developmental and 
social aervlces. 

We have done that pretty adequotely, as hon. meabers will 

see from the figures I have already given. la have not 

- 1000 - 5-©-46 

Mr. Frost 

•tlntad anybody. Than No. 7: 

7. ProTlslon it mad* for tba paymant of 
ona Bill on tba ganaral assaaamant 
to avary auniolpallty in Ontario. 

That la In addition to the grant. 

6. Provision la mada to subaldlza tha 

Northern mining municipalities. 

0. Tha Taaohara' Superannuation Fund 
baa baan plaoad on a sound financial 
baala and adequate retiring allowencaa 

10. la are budgeting to reduce the Groaa 
Debt of the Province and alao to reduce 
the Net Debt In the coming fiscal year. 

11. T^st year on the 16th of Uarch I stated 

o this House: "I am sure that the 
taxpayers of Ontario will rejoice to bear 
of reduced debt, reduced Interest, en- 
larged benefits, relief from real 
estate taxation and a balanced budget.* 

I am proud to stand here and say that this has bean 

tranalated from a promise to a performance. 

12. fa have taken oonatructlve action on 
postwar planning — 

and this Is a highlight of this budget beoauaa upon It 

depends the future not only of our province but of the 

whole of Canada: 

— and, by conserving our credit, 
Impoflng no new taxes, adding no new 
debt and bnlanclng the Budget up to 
Uarch 31st, 1946, we have left the way 
clear for a dominion-provincial con- 

Let us pauae and contemplate our position. 9a 

are a Confederation. Ill of tha nlna provinces bava 

their own traditions, their own paoullar problaaa and 

tbalr own provincial aspirations. Thaaa are regarded 

Jealously by tbain. In *t laast six of tba provlnoaa tbalr 

obaraotorl sties far antedate tha Confadaratlon of 1867. 

Ontario had her beginnings nearly a century and tbraa- 

quartera ago. iettlemant bagan In tha 1780*a with tbt 

- 1001 - 9-9-45 


arrival of those from the Amerloon 3tetes who preferred 
above all else to live under the British flag. They 
vere Joined with the migration of the first half of the 
last oentury. Upper Canada, at the time of Confederation, 
had an acoufflulation of wealth and traditions going back over 
three-quarters of a century and covering many troubled days. 
During these years through the striving of her people sha 
had prospered and developed. In 1667, the date which is 
over the Speaker's chair, was one of the great foundations 
of Confederation. Rer part in thu Doninlon of Canada has 
been great. Her sons ano caughters went to peopie the 
Western plaina. lluoh of the public life of the lest had 
its beginnings on the farms of old CntHrlo-> Her wealth 
throughout the years has contributea niigntiiy lo cne 
coomon cause. Her taxpayers contribute about one- half of 
all Dominion taxation in peace and In war« 

While Ontario reserves the rights and privileges, 
including administrative, human and developmental powers 
assured to her at Confederation, while she expects the 
ocononio freedom to enable her to function within her 
sphere, she accepts fully her duty to Canada. She 
approaches the Conference In the spirit of our fathers 
which broods over this ancient Assembly, In the spirit 
•f liaedenald and Brown, who with Cartler, Tllley and 
Tapper made poasible the Dominion of Canada. So will 
Ontario strive for a settlement that la as raaaonabla 
as coomon sense Itself. True she will be to har history 
and to har motto — *A8 loyal ahe began so ahall aha ever 

MR. R0BIN30K (Waterloo South): Ur. Speaker, I 
move the adjournment of the debate. 

Motion agreed to and the debate adjourned. 

DD13 - 1002 - 3-9-46 

BON. GIOBOB A. DRJEl (PrlM Minister): Mr. 3p»aic«r, 
I have a DBssaga from the Honourable the Lleutenant-OeTernor 
signed by his own hand, transmitting Suppleaentanr Bstloates 
L for the financial year ending Msr eh 31, 1945. 

In moTlng the adjournnent of the House, aay I ssiy 
thst on Monday we shall take up bills. There will be ne 
erenlng session on Monday but we shall start the evening 
sittings on Tuesday. 

MR. HSPBURN (Blgln): Are we gelng to preoeed with 
the Throne debate or the budget on Tuesday? 

MR. EREW: With the Thronedebate. 

MR. «)OLLIFFE: If the Throne debate Is to be con- 
tinued on Tuesday, when will the budget debate be resumed? 

m. DREW: We will first consider the Supplementary 
Sstlmates. "Riat of course is not the budget debate. In 
any event we shall proceed with the Throne debate on 
Tuesday, and I shall be very happy to confer with the 
leaders of the different groups as to resuming the budget 

Lotion agreed to and the House adjourned at 4.25 p.i 

- 1CX)5 - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Uonday, Uaroh 12, 1945. 

SFIAKBR: Honourable Wllllani J. Stewart, C.B.S. 

The House met at 3 o'clock. 


UR. SPSAKSB: Presenting peltltlons. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by coomittees. 


Introduction of bills. 

HON. R. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): ICr. Speaker, 
I more, seconded by the hon. Ur. Thosq>8on, that leave be 
given to Introduce a bill intituled "An Act to amend the 
Nurses* Registration Act,** and that the sane be now read the 
first time. 

notion agreed to and bill read the first tins. 

■R. fILLIAU DnrniSON (St. David): Will the hon. 
Minister explain? 

MR. YIVIAN: Ur. Speaker, there Is a new principle 
In the bill which gives recognition to a needM classifica- 
tion for practical nurses In the province, whereby, for tak- 
ing a period of training, they may cooe under the title of 
"Registered iVssistant IMrse". This will not In any way 
Interfere with those who wish to do practical nursing, but 


_'U , Ui'i 

- 10O4 - 3*12->45* 

It does aatabllah a definite oategory for thoee wbo bare 
taken training. 

UR, 7RBD W. WARnBI (Bamilton-ffentworth) : Mr. Qpaakar, 
I move, seconded by Mr. RiflMi ^^a^ leave be gl-ven to intro- 
duce a bill intituled "An Act to proride relief for persona 
who have suffered substantial iapaimant of inoooa owing to 
illness or unemployment or any other oauae beyond their eon- 
trol, in respeot of their hooas*" and that the sane be now 
read for the first tima. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tima. 

HON. R. P. VIVIIN (Minister of Health): I move, 
seconded by the hon* Mr. Dunbar, that leave be given to 
Introduce a bill intituled "An Act to amend the Venereal 
Diseases* Prevention AOt," and that the same be now read a 
first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tiaa. 

MR. CHARUS A. 8TRANGI (Brentford): Would the hon. 
Minister tell \ia the purpose? 

MR. VIVIAN: I would be delighted. Mr. Speaker, the 
venereal Disease Control Braneh of the Department of Health, 
establisheA in 1939, has made very notable advance during 
the past year. The pxirpose of the aaandments in this propos- 
ed bill are to increase the efficiency wiUi ahieh we ara 
able to deal with venereal disease. 

One outstanding, new principle in the proposal is that 
it will be required that the medical practitioner seeing a 
patient for the first time shall take auoh tests as ara 
necessary to lower the incidence of congsnital syphilis in this 

HON. CHARLES DAISY (Minister ox iadout) : I move, 
aeooQded by hon. Mr. ThQiq>8Ga, that leave be given to introduce 

r » 

a dntldntBe boo. 

AW .v aaHi •flu 

'ftf Jbol>no998 fttrom I 

T 7.13 ic t«9rr^cl«TflT9flr TO SB •nil.!: 

won 90 iiWaflB exi. jaeq^eai xil .ioi-; 

.©rtilt til riirf fc.tP nt bo&T^B aottoH 

o Y(^ b9baoo9m 

. .....^ _* r ifii^r ^'^fT fi^A n:}- fiftsrrtifl ^T.-•^!^^J^^ 

Hduu; ddd&aia Xaeiantv 


,16 8^ ^ejKI 9^ii 

'-a £iax.i&' ftJis x^- ' ^^ ^i''-' dru Illtf be 

7 ilJ^lw lBei> ot 9I4b 


.^ wen ^-...^ - -... , 8030 

B S- 

-.aaoi^iv; ijan »d3" tadi bwiiupea ed illw iTi 



lot taettBq 

- 1006 - S-12-4S. 

a bill intituled "An let to amend the hours of work and 
Vaoetlons :rith Pay Act, 1944, •• and that the aoae be read 
a flrat tliae. 

notion agreed to and bill read the flrat time. 

Iffi. ARTHUR ITIUIAMS (Ontario) : Would the hon. 
Ulnlster give a word of explanation? 

VR, DALEY: This la to fix the mazlwni ->- to author- 
ize the Labour and Industry Board to fix the wytitf watfx 
of hours. 

Briefly, it Is to control the ipllt shift. 

RON. R. P. VIVIAII (Minister of Health): I move, 
aeoonded by ur. Dunbar, that leave be given to introduce a 
bill intituled "An Act to amend the Uedloal Aot," and that 
the same be now read for the first time. 

notion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

UR. UITCHBLL F. HEPBURN (Elgin): Would the hon. 
Ulnlster explain? 

UR. VI7IAN: I do not believe the House would desire 
I give a long explanation of an Act containing some nineteen 
minor amendments at this time. I prefer to deal with that 
on aeoond reading, but I wish to assure the House no new 
principles are Invoked. Like most Acts that need tidying, 
the Uedical Aet doea at this time, and this Act is proposed 
to do that. 

UR. FRBO W. WARRIN (Hamilton Wentworth): I worm, 
seconded by Ur. Riggs, that leave be given to introduce a 
bill intituled "An Act to provide financial protection for 
persons who have suffered substantial ijqmimfant of inooai 
owing to illness, unemployaent or any other cause beyond 
their control," and that the aans be read a first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first t: 

- 1 006 - 3-12-40 • 

UR. VIVIIN: Would tho hon. mmaber explain? 

MR. WARRIN: There ie a eladlarity between the two. 
The first one 1b the oiortgagee Boratoriua, similar to the 
one granted to soldiers last year, and the otaer one la to 
enable anyone who is not able to meet an aooount in regard 
to any assets which they may hare. 

HON. CHARLES QiLBT (Minister of Labour): I Bore, 
seconded by Mr. Thoopson, that leave be given to introduea 
a bill intituled "in Act to ansnd the Mlnlamm Wag* Act," 
and that same be retd now a first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Ontario): I would like a word 
of explanation, particularly in view of the fact I read in 
the paper — 

MR. SPEAKER: No, no. 

MB. DALEY: This, Ux, Speaker, Just authorizes the 
Board to set a minimum wage for part-time workers, establish' 
Ing a rate. 

MR* SPXiKER: I might say to the House three hon. 
BMobers have requested to rise before the Orders of the Day, 
and obtained my oonsent. 

HON. G20RQS A. DREW (Prime LUnister) : I have tha 
privilege, this afternoon, of welcoming to this Legislatxira 
visitors to Canada who arrived here only to-day. I feel 
sure tnat 1 am expressing weioone to these visitors, who are 
sitting under the gallery, on both sides, not only on behalf 
of this Legislature, but on behalf of all the people of 
Ontario, when i ;;eil you this is a delegation of representa- 
tives of the Prenoh Underground Press, aooM of them the 
continuing Press of Pranoe and representatives of the French 
Ma^^uls, who fought the Germans when they were occupying 

- 1007 - 9-12-45. 

Trance. We hare these people wiih ue, here, to-day. If I «.,, 
I would aek those representatlTea of the French Preas and of 
the Uaquls who are with us to atand by their seate, so that 
the Assaiably may see them. 

Z have been Informed that their visit to Toronto Is 
merely a part of an extended visit to Ontario and to other 
parts of Canada, following a visit wnicn aaa carried thorn 
right across the United States. To every one of those Isdles 
and gentleman, (and jrou sea amongst them ladies who have 
taken tneir full part xn the battle for freedom and faced 
the constant threat of death in so doing,) I know I can say 
on behauLf of every one here and on behalf of the people of 
Ontario we adolre, greatly, vzuat you accooQ^lished under 
terrible conditions. Ve welcome you here to-day. fa hopa 
that the trip you have will carry with it not only an 
understanding of our people, but that you will also carry 
back to France ideas which may be useful to you in rebuild- 
ing your great nation. I am sura I speak for every one here, 
(and perhaps, in this, I might speak with some warrant, 
having been in France immediately after the liberation,) 
in saying that you are nearly representative of that great 
spirit which has arisen again in France, and through which 
has emerged the great Trance of the future. 

(Page No. 1008 follows.) 

- *oUO - 9-JJS-%0 

Mr. Xolllff* 

W. K. B. JOLLim (LMd«r of th« Opposition): Mr. 
Spsaker, I am sure that «U hon. m*ab«rs of tht Boum vlll 
with to bo assoolated with the Prime Minister (Mr. Drew) and 
Join in the refflsrka he has Just aadie in eztendini; a oordial 
velocne to our guests here to-day^ Is our giiests are 
probably aware, there are nany special ties between Canada 
and their own country, and the people of this Dominion, 
including the people of this rrorlnce.hare therefore felt 
a very speoiai Interest in the strug^a w:iich was waga4 
by so many of the people of France agalnat the nasi 
Invader during the years of their oocupet ion of Trance. 

May I also say that it la a matter of pride 
to the people of thla country that during those years 
of occuT^ation there were some representatlTes of Canada 
and In particular some French- speak log members of our 
qrmed forces who entered France and were able to play a 
part in the struggle then being carried on» I am sure, 
witn the close cooperation of their French friends. 

It is therefore of particular Interest to us 
that these gueata should be with us to-day and I am sure 
that «e all Join with the Prime Miniater in eztendliig to 
them a hearty welcome and our very best wishes. 

MR. SPEAKER : May I ask our distinguished guests 
to come forward? Thank you. 

I bSTe now the pleasure of presenting our dis- 
tinguished guests to the House. 

Orders of the Day. 

10. ARTRXm IILUAMS (Ontario): Mr. Spaaker. 
want to bring to the attention of the Bouse somi thing that 
I regard as very important and I hope it is not a fore- 
runner of what we are likely to expect in other parts of 
this province. I refer to the disastrous news respeotioi 

- 1009 - 3-1E-48 

Mr. Illil 

■any of my oonatltuents in tba eity of Oahaaa. Tao 
thouaand of than ara faoad with a lay-off i fourtaan 
hundrad of than In tha Aircraft DlTlalon of Oanaral 
Uotora and anotbar aiz bundrad in tba krmy Truck DlTl- 
alon of tba aaaa firm. Tba numbar of paopla working 
in tba plant la approzlsiataly aaran tbouaand, and bara 
«6 have nearly ona- third of tbam balng laid off. But 
wbat is aorsa, Saleotlve darvioa in Oabaaa baa alraady 
intlBBtad that It cannot find work for mora than four 
hundred of these workers. fftaat la going to bappan to 
the remaining aixtaan hundred I do not know, and appair- 
antly nobody else knows. If thia kind of thing is going 
to bappan even while the war Is on. God help ua aa to 
wbat is going to happen when the war la over. I would 
ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) and tba Iflnlster 
of Planning and Development (Mr. Porter) particularly to 
take unaar acviaamant the information I have now given to 
the House in tha hope that their joint efforts might give 
to tbase paopla and their dependents in Oabawa some degraa 
of aasuranoa that thay are not going to ba left nigh and 
dry without a job after having rendered the service thay 
have to this province and to tbla country. 

MR. 3PKAKBR: Ordera of the Day. 

MR. OSORGB H. MITCHILL (Tork North): Mr. Speaker, 
It Bay ba remaBbered by bon. Baabara that I bad oooaalon to 
rlaa laat Monday in thia House with reapeat to a natter of 
public Importance, the matter balng the lay-off of a number 
of amployaaa in a plant <m tba lake front on only two boura' 
notice. I did claim at that tlma tbut tbaaa aan wara In 
a classification tbat entitled tbam to aaven daya * notice. 

On the following day tba bon. Mlnlatar of Labour 

- 1010 - »-18-46 

Mr. Mltetell 

(Kr. Daisy) aaaurad tha Kouaa that ha would Invoatigat* 
tte mftttar, aofC later ba statad tnat oti inrormatloo r«- 
oalved by him thast nan vara to aoaa axtant eaaual 
vorhers and tharafora ha did net BBauiia that tbay vara 
•sgagad for any oonsldarabia lans^A or tis* *nd by virtu* 
of that fact would ba antltlad, not to aavan days* notloa, 
but only to aona eradlt card or slip to ba placad in 
their book for oartaln purposaa. 

I haTa invaatlgatad this aattar mystlf and I 
am now going to ba apaoific and giva tha nana a of thraa 
ampioyees dlsohargad. I find that Mcholaa Uoroahok 
was amployad fo five months; Joseph Horan for aixtaan 
months and Hichaal Zub for approziaately tio and a half 
yaara by this firs. Jack Lawaon ooxonanoad working with 
this concern in July, 1944, and workad approxi&ataly aavan 

These man were tradasman and were employed, in 
the main, on work inside the boata. 

In view of these facta I feal that I muat again 
bring the matter to the attention of the liiniater with tha 
request that he make further representatlona not only to 
tha employer but to the Hon. Hximphrey Uitohall, Dominion 
Minister of Labour. 

I submit, Mr. Speaker, that there la a vary iwr 
portent principle involved hare, and I paraonally do not 
propoaa to let thia matter drop until ttaaaa man have re* 
oelved Justlca in aceordanoa with the Bagulatlona. 

MR. SPEAKSR: Orders of tha Daiy. 

lf{. VMM: Mr. Speaker, I wiah to table anawara 
to Quaationa 1, 6, 10. 14, 24, 25, £6 and ST. 

I aiao wiah to table a return of eorraapondanoa 


- lOU - S-lB-46 

Mr. Dr«« 

tMtvavn this Govanuaint and the Doftlnion 0<nr«rim«nt 
reapeetlng old age panslons. 

In th» abaeno* of the tflniater of Agrioultur* 
(Kr. Kannedj) I vlah to table the interla report of the 
Agricultural Comnlaalon of Inquiry. I ahall be glad to 

send ooplea to the Leader of the Oppoaition and to other 
groupa in the Leglalature. 

If I night have the Indulgence of the Uouae for 
a moaent, Mr. Speaker, I might explain that thla la oerely 
an Interim report, being a compilation of the recosuuen- 
datlona made from time to time during the alttlnga of the 
Commlaaion, and vhis compilation waa handed to the preaa 
without either the authority of the Minister or the Cob- 
mlsaion. In fact, the flrat «e Icnen of it vaa when we 
heard of It In that way. The Commission has certain 
data 11a to complete and will expand the report and bring 
It up to date. As will be aeea upon examination, it In- 
cludes recommendations made froai time to time, many of which 
have been acted upon already, and aome of which are atlll 
under consideration. I shall have copies delivered to the 
other groupa. 

MR. 3PEAKKR: Ordera of the Day. 

MR. DREW: Mr. Speaker, I move thht you do now 
leave the chnlr and that the Bouse resolve Itself Into 
Committee of the Whole* 

Motion agreed to and the Bouse went Into coa* 
Bittee, Mr. Reynolds In the Chair. 

MR. DRSW: Order No. £6, whleh ia The Kleotion Act. 

CLIRK OF TBS BOfDSIt Bouse in CooBlttee on Bill 
No. 31, The Election Act, 1946. 

MR. BLACKWBIL: Mr. Chalnaan, I will reeall to you 

- 1012 - 5-12-45 


and to the Comltt«« that vhaz; «• ware laat aacftcad vlth 
thla bill In oomalttaa «a had reaohad ace! rasarrad con- 
aldaration or saotion iv, aniou la naaaad *Vao Bay rota.* 
It vaa undaratood that vhan thla bill vaa raaiai«d In 
ootnn^lttaa saetlon 17 aould raiBBln rasflrvad and that «a 
aouid prooaad to aaotloit 18. 

Saetlon 17 atands. 

Saetlona 16 an.i )Q agraad to. 

On aaetlon £C • Indiana - when dlaquallflad. 

W. JOLLUFIt The hoo. oamber for Fort fllllas 
«aa anxioua to gat an op1n1 >n from tha Attorney Oenaral aa 
to tha right of wives of inUlana to TOte. Ha draw ay 
attention to the position that certain white wcnen who 
are married to Indiana hare, aooordlng to hln, been denied 
the right to TOte in paat aleotlona. The point did not 
eome to my attention during the alttlnga of tha coBoalttae. 
I think It would arise under thla aeetion, which relataa 
to Indiana. 

MR. BLACKWBLL: I must confesa that I now recall 
tha hon. member for Fort William ralalng that queatlon when 
the bill waa before the Uouae» but I received no further 
Intimation of precisely what information ha waa aeaklng. 
I did not understand In the Uouae tha particularity which 
tha Leader of the Oppoaitlon haa aentloned, and if It ia 
the desire of the Leader of the Oppoaitlon that there ahould 
be an opinion given before proceeding with the aaetlon aa to 
the atatua of white wcaen who have married Indiana and do 
not get the frenehiaa I au«fff»st that the aaetlon be reaervad 
ao that point might be oonaiuered. I preauma that If tha 
Information was that white woaan married to Indiana not 
enjoying the franehlaa» tha hon. meabar for Fort WilliaB 

- 1015 - 5-18-46 

Mr. Blackw«ll 

Intonda to move an aatndBaDt. la that hla intantlont 

m, JOLLIPFB; I balloTa that that la his Intao- 
tion. If I may partlouiariza further, the bon. aeaber for 
Fort ■llllaiB infonui Me -- I have no peraonal luiowleAge of a 
oaae of thla kind -- that under the present Aot there are 
eaaea of wives of Indians who aerved in the iaat var and 
brought a wife back with then froa Ingland , and while the 
huaband has a vote aa a aoldler In the last war, for aoae 
reaaon or other the returning officers have held that their 
wives were not entitled to vote. That aeeoed to the hon. 
nember for Port William an unjust dlserlmlnatlon, and; I 
think he did wish to move an amendaent unless he could be 
satisfied that they have the right to vote under the Act 
as drawn. 

MR. BIACXWELL: I appreciate the Leader of the 
Opposition particularizing further on this natter. Aa Z 
understand it it would not be the intention of the hon. 
member for Fort ffllliam, who is not here to-day, that a 
white woman married to an unenfranchised Indian ahould 
vote but merely that those married to enfranohiaed Indiana 
ahould vote. If that is so I would ask that the aeetion 
be reserred so that a deliberate opinion can be prepared on 
the question. 

Section standa. 

On aeetion 21 -- Appointment of day for nomination. 

MR. JOLUFFB: I do not want to waate tiae but I 
think the attention of the Committee might be drawn to the 
fact that under thla aeetion future eleotiona will alwaya 
take place on lednesday. Thac I tniiiK la a new feature of 
the Aot. 

Section agreed to. 

- 1014 - >l2-45 

teetloDs 22 axki 23 mgfA to. 

On ••etlon 24 — 3upply of ppll boolu and foi 

MR. DBNiasOK: I undoratood that va daoldad that 
a apaclal fom would ba provldad for azpanaaa, tha aaaa aa 
la dona in tha Dominion Act. I do not know whathar thla 
point WHO overlockad In tha Commlttaa'a raport. Tha point 
waa dlsouaaad but I do not know whathar tha coaslttaa Bad* 
a daclalon. Parhapa tha Attornay Oanaral aould tall ua. 

UR. BLACKIBLL: I hava no racollaotlon of a da- 
clalon of the ooBBtlttaa aa to any apeolal form regarding 
axpensas being rrovided aa a aohadula to the Act. Tharw 
waa a reoomiiendation aa to what ahould ba In a return of 
axpensea but I do not think the diseuaalon waa carried 
to the point of a reoonunendation of a special form. 
Perhaps ne might wait uncll we come to that aaatlon. 

Section agreed to. 

Sectiona 25 to 48 Inolualre agreed to. 

On aeetion 49 *■- When returning officer to maka 


MR. ORUMMKTT: I balieve it waa understood In 

the select comBlttee that wherever the municipalitlea 

had divided the munlelnalitles Into polling aubdivisiona 

we would not interfere with their boundaries. But I 

notice that subsection 2 providaa: 

"Where the council haa 
divided tha municipality into 
polling subdivialona tha return- 
ing officer shall not be required 
to make any change In tha boundarlaa 
of a polling aubdivlalon.* 

I do not think that tha worda "ahall not ba 

required* ahould ba in tbara. It would ba better to 

atrika tham out ao that tha section would read: 

- 1018 - 3-12-48 

Mr. OruBMtt 

*Wb«r« the oouBOll has 
dlvld«4 th« Bunlolpallty Into 
polling subdlvltlona tho return- 
ing off loor shall not naka any 
ohanga in tha bouodarlaa of a 
polling subdivision** 

I Bova aoeordlngly, aaoondad by tha hon. mm 
for Waterloo 3outh (ICr. Boblnson). 

MR. BlACKmiX. Perhaps the slaplast thing . ir. 
dealing with the hon. nember's motion would ba to say that 
vhAt he has stated is quite oorraot, vltb reference to 
section 49, that Bunlclpel subdivisions, having regard 
to the lower number that vote In a Buniclpal election 
as compared viti a proviiiolal election, are In aany 
Instances larger, much larger than for the purpoaaa of 
a provincial election. Tha intentiou la that Bunlclpal 
subdivisions should be subdivided for provincial pur- 
poses, but that subdivision should be within tha 
boundary of tha existing municipal division. That la 
what the hon. BeBber*s amendment la directed to, but I 
doubt if the language he haa used in tha aBandaent carrlaa 
out that intention with the preclalon that la daalrabla, 
and I am going to suggest this to hlB. Tha aubaeotlon aa 
he proposes to amend it vouid read: 

**Where the council haa- 
aivided the municipality into 
polling subdivisions the return- 
ing officer shall not Bake any 
change in tha boundarlaa of a 
polling subdivision.* 

I would be prepared to accept hia aaandBant If 

ha would move It in these words, to clarify It: 

"Where the council tana 
divided tha Bunicipallty into 
polling aubdivialona tha return- 
ing offlaar shall not Bake any 
ohanga in tha boundarlaa of a 
Buniclpal polling subdivision 
except by subdivision thereof.* 


- 1016 - 3- IB- 46 


I think that la th« azaet Intent. 

MR. QRUIOIITT: That I oaiiOTe la iha Intent, ICr. 
Attorney General » but If you will refer baok to the vordlnc 
of the section as drafted, that la not elear beaauoa It 
aaya "ahali not be requirea". 

10. BLACK ffSLL: May I read It again, beaauaa the 

fact la he nay be renulmd under prorar ol retinal a noei. 

Will the hon. neaber be iio^^ enoug^i to foiiov tne wording 

of the amendnant: 

"■here the eounoil has dlTlded 
the munloipallty into polling aub- 
dlvlslons the returning officer 
shall not make any change in tha 
boundaries of a municipal polling . 
aubdivislcii except by aubdivlaion ' 

Is not that the intention? 

MR, GRUMUSTT: Yes, that la the intention. 

10. BLACKWSLL: If the hon. otenber is prepared 
to move that I will accept It. 

UR. JOLLIFFS: Just before that is done let na 

point out that the next subsection has aB laportant bearing 

on thla because it refers to the subdividing process which 

the Attorney 3enaral was discussing a moment ago. It raada: 

"Where the list of persona 
entitled to vote in any polling 
aubdivlaion exceeds four hundrad 
names, the returning officer ahall 
divide such polling subdivision Into 
two or more polling subdivisiona for 
tha purposes of tha election.* 

I aaa what the hon. BMsber for Cochrane South and 
the Attorney Oeneral are trying to do, namely, to guard 
against the returning offlear drawing up a new aet of 
boundariea whioh would OTerlap tha munioloal boundarlea 
alraady established. 

m. BLACmLL: That la right. 1 tniiiK tha 

- 1017 - »>1»>46 


hon. membar's anenAiaBt with the addition of tba vorda Z 
propoaad raoonolita tha t«o aubaaotiuna and otakaa thaa aorfc 
togathar. Ona proTldaa for tba aubdlvialon, and tba nazt 
authorlzaa tha aubdlvlalon althln tba original boundariaa. 
I think tha two aubaaotlona ara In parfaot barmoay. 2a tba 
hon. aambar praparad to mora tha aaandaant in that way? 

MR. OROOSTT: I as qulta praparad to Bova tbat 
but would tha Attornay Ganaral axplaln tha aaanlng of tba 
aubsection aa It atanda in tba billT 

MR. BL&CKWBLL: I praauma "ahall not ba raqulrad* 
uaed In aubsaot' r. {2), piua aubaaotion (3) makaa it plain 
bow the subdivision oan be aada. Thara la a permiaaion 
to the returnin/r offleer In subsection (3) to maka tha 
subdivision witaac the original bounaarles» but subaaotlon 
(£) is there for purpo&as of clarity. Thara la no require- 
ment on the returning officer to do it. 

MR. MURPHY: Is it tne imentioc of the Act to 
make the subdivision before the enumeration? There ara 
a great many subdivisions In which the number on tba 
municipal Hats woula number far more than 400 » would 
probably be up to 600* I understand tbat tba enumerator 
will have four days to make his enumeration, make two or 
three calla ana prepare hla lista. Than after his iiat 
la prepared it goea to tha reTlaing officer. In ay own 
riding we have 68 subdlvlsiona on tha municipal Hat. • 
At tha last alaotion thara were 130 and it required 
aaveral days for the enumerator to make return calla to 
people who were not in on tha firat call. I think we 
ahould inatruot tha returning officer to make hla diviaiona 
before the enumeration if there ara 400 neaea on the ■unici- 
pal Hat. 

- loie - »-u-4S 

Mr* Immrmna 

Ml* UUTIIBt Bov mMJOj •ubdlTltlons In %tm hoa. 
noiiber's riding haTs aore than 400 bums on tha Hat? 

MR. MURPHY: Thay dlTldad It at 300 in tba 
last alaotlon. Thay vara dlvidad Into A and B. Tbara 
vara aeveral undar 300. 

in. BUOKWILL: In Tlaw of tha faot that tha 

hon. maabar for Tha Baaohaa baa dlraetad hla quaatlon to 

ma the provision In aubsaatlonO) of aaatlon 49 aa found 

thara now raada: 

*Whara tha Hat of parsons 
antltlad to vota In any polling 
subdivision azoaads four hundra4 
naass, tba returning officer ahall 
divide such polling subdivision Into 
t«o or more polling subdivisions --" 

The raaaon for tha axprassion *t«o or Bore* is 
that throughout the provlnoa the number of naaaa in a 
Bunlcipal subdivision variea tremendously. The ratio 
In the city of Toronto Bight be fairly oonaiataat, but in 
ay own riding there are 100 Bunicipal aubdi vis ions and 
approzlBately 45,000 people on the votera' Hat. For 
provincial purpose a those 100 subdivisions ware dlvidad 
Into 174 provincial dlvlsiona, and by the tiaa it gate 
around to voting, some of these provincial diviaiona bear 
no relation naoasserlly to tha Buniolpal diviaiona. 
▲gain thara they are dlvidad in A'a and B*a. 

The design of thia Act ia simply this. first 
there will not be all this rush during four or five days 
while the enuaaration is talcing plaoa baoauae tha Aet eon- 
templates, in a aeotion that wa have already dealt with, that 
thara ahall ba paraanant returning offioara who will b« on 
tha job and will not wait to make their aubdivisions uBtil 
the anuaaration la about to take plaoa. As soon aa thay 
are appointed thay will ba on their Job and aan tat, and 

- 1019 - 9-lt-4e 


vhare th« nuab«r of persons •ntltlsd to Toto In a Bunleip«l 
•leotlon axcseds 400 utmrnn In a dlTlsion, thars vlll ba a 
aubdlTlsioD rignt within the nunlolpal dirlsion. Applying 
that to my own riding it vlll work out to approzlaataly tOO 
provincial dlTlsiona. All that work ahould ba dona wall 
in advanoa, ana it should ba all aat and ready by the tiSM 
the enumeration takaa plaaa. That la the broad design. 

MR. ORUIQSTT: Would it not be better to sey that 
the returning officer shall not make any change in the 
boundarlea of a polling subdirlslon azcapt as sat out in aub- 
aaetion (9)? 

n. BLACXWSLL) Perhaps the hon. Beaber would sub* 

mlt his amandBant in writing. I think the seetion should 

be read to the Coaunlttee with the new wording. It is noa 

proposed that It should read as follows: 

"Where the eounelli has 
divided the municipelity into 
polling subdivisions the return- 
ing officer shall not make any 
change in the boundarlea of the 
polling subdivision ezeapt aa 
set out in subseation (9) here- 

Z would suggest that instead of saying *aet out* 
«a ahould aay "provided.* 

MR. ORUIOBTT: That Is satisfaotory , yea. 

AaandBant agreed to. 

m. BLACKWBLL: Before Section 49 la carried I 
would like to Biake thie obeervatlon. 2t has been brought 
to my attention that In eartain rural areas, area where a 
aubdivision is below 400 namaa, thara Bight ba vaat dla- 
tsnees to travel and It would probably ba deslrebla to 
retain the A and B oonpilatlon, and if I have parmlaalon 
to do ao I would ask that this seation ba reserved until 

- 1020 - 9-lS-4e 

Kr. BUolra^U 

that question can tm fully azaalnad* 

Section 8taod8« 

On aeotlon SO — Polling places In each polling 

MR. IfURPHY: I nore that: 

*8ubaeetlon (6) of aeotlon 50 
of The lie et Ion Act be anended by 
Inserting after the «ord 'places' 
In the first line the word 'pro- 
vided* and by Inserting after 
the word 'subdivision* In the first 
and second lines the words and 
figure 'pxursuant to subaeetlon 5'» 
so that the said subsection shall 
now read as follows: 

"Division to (6) Where there are two or 
be accord- more polling placea 
Ing to provided In a subdlviaion. 

Initial purauant to aubsection (5), 

letters of each polling place shall 
voters' be dealgnated by the Initial 

names. letters of the surname a of 

the voters who are to vote 
in such polling place, in 
the following manner, that 
Is to say, from A to II 
Inclusive, and from M to Z 
inclusive, or aa may be de- 
termined by the returning 

We have subdivlsiona where the enumeration la divided 
by street numbers. This subsection provides that the return- 
ing off loo: shall have power to make the division by naaes froB 
A to M and from N to Z, but he ean divide it by atreeta instead 
of by initials. 

MR. DINNISON: What advantage would it be when the 
other aubseotloi/ststea that they shall vote In the same build- 
ing? Why go to the bother of dividing it by streets when the 
other subsection provides that they nay be 8id« by aide any* 
whe re? 

MR. UURPHY: The municipal divisions are very larc* 
and take in from four to six streets. The returning officer 
will likely piece a polling place In om part of the sub- 


- 1021 - 9-12-45 

Mr. Murphy 

dlTlsion and another In another. Thar* will b« hardly any 

in tha sajM house under this arrsngeaent* 

MR. BLACXWBLL: I would suggest to the hon. 

member for the Beaches thst the effect of this a— pd—nt la 

slBple. It la to provide that the returning officer vlil 

have that alternatlre under section SO ao that he vlll not 

I^Cve to set up the polls under aaatlon S2 in that particular 

alphabetical way. I vlll read aeatlon 50(2): 

*A returning officer may In 
his discretion, grant such additional 
polling places In any polling sub- 
division as the extent of the sub- 
division and the remoteness of any 
body of its voters from the polling 
place render necessary .f 

If the returning officer was required to do It 
under the conditions of section 56, it would make the grant* 
ing of that remote poll practically useless. This is to 
introduce flexibility and not to make aubseetlon (S) bouxid 
by what were the arbitraryt>rovlslons of subsection (6). 
Is not that it, Mr. Murphy? 

MR. MURPHY: That is right. 

MR. BLiCKWBLL: I am quite satisfied to accept that 
aaandBant* It appeals to ma aa an improvement, and not only 
an laqprovement but a necessity. 

W. JOLLIFFB: Probably it la logical to provide thla 
■achlnery under aection 50 for additional polling plaoaa. There 
Is, however, some danger that returning offlcara may bacoaa a 
little confused as between their powers under section 40. to 
subdivide e polling division and their powers uiidar section SO 
to establish new polling places. It night aaally be confus- 
ing to the general public when they make inquiry as to where 
they can vote. They can hardly be expected to diatlngulah 
between a polling division and a polling plaea. Tbare may 

- 108E - 5-12-48 

Ur .Jolllff* 

bo no solution but I 8«« oonsld«rabl« oonfuaion arlslnc •• 
b«tv««n tta«8t t«o ■•etlons. 

m, BLACXWBLL: 2 do not think tb« oonfualon will 
b« In th« public mind b««au8tt by the tim« voting tak«s pl«e« 
•11 those things have been established and the Toters* lists 
have been Issued aoeordlng to what has transpired. 

If I nay say so» we have three situations now d«alt 
with by seetions 49 and 60. The first one is where there 
is authority for the general subdivision within the ordinary 
munioipal polling division. Thst is not a natter that should 
be left over until election time. The returning officer is 
bound to attend to It as aoon as he takes offle«. It is a 
matter inrespeet of which he makes adjuatmaots from tiaa to 
time as the evidence warrants such adjustments, and ordinarily 
that will be done well In advance of the election* 

We atill have two other situations. It aay be that 
although the subdivision haa not actually taken place* where 
there are close to 400 names In a division, the aere meehanios 
of taking the vote where the vote Is heavy may warrant A and 
B ccmpllation, and that is authorised under section 50(6). 

Then there Is still another situation which will not 
be handled In that fashion. It haa no relation to the aera 
question of the heaviness of the vote but relates to large, 
remote rural subdivisions where it is convenient to make a 
aubdivislon, not alphabetically, but by area. There again 
it la in the diseretlon of the returning officer, and that 
is not related to aeotion 49, for the mere naming of people 
to vote. 

As to avoiding oonfuaion, that can be avoided by 
the Bulletin of Inatructlons which goes out froa the Chief 
Electoral Officer. I aa sure that there would be leas con- 
fuaion than in the past, beoause the returning officers 

- 10£9 - »-l»-46 

■r. Joiiiff* 

will b« p«rman«nt and vlll gst all th«a« thlnga doiM In good 
ordar long ahaad of tha taking of tba anujaaratlon* 

Aaandaant agraad to. 

Saotlon aa amandad agraad to. 

MR. BLACKIBLL: Nov that aaatlon 60 baa baan oarrlad, 
tba ahola aaohanioa of tba aattar ara bafore tba OoaadAa* 
and I tblnk it would ba aafa for ua to ratum to aaetlon 49 
and aarry it in Ita prasant fona. 

On aaatlon 49 — fban returning offloar to aaka 

MR. CASSILMAN: As bon. nambara of tba Houaa aay 
ba oallad upon by tbelr oonatltuanta to Intarprat tba Aet , — 
1 do not maan a lagal Interpretation -- I would like to 
know If I am right In thinking that where there ara two 
or more polling plaoaa they will ba In the sane building 
and divided from A to M and N to Z, ona in aacb part of 
tba rooB. 

MR. BUCKVELL: If it la aatabllabad undar 
aeotlon 50(6) tba hon. member ia rlgbt in that aaaump* 
tion, but on the other hand if it ia tba granting of Mora 
than one polling plaaa undar aaatlon 50(S), ha would not 
be right in that aaaumption. Wbere it ia a mere subdlTi' 
alon on account of tba way they vote in the area it takaa 
place undar aubaaotion (6) of aaatlon 50, but In a largk 
and aparsely settled place requiring Bora pollinf plaaaa, 
that takes place undar aubaaetlon (8) of aaatlon 50. 

MR. JOLLIFFI: My undaratandlng of aubaaetlon (6) 
of seetlon 50 la that tba aattar ia controlled by tba con- 
cluding worda of tba aubaaetlon *or aa say ba datarBinad 
by the returning officer.* Aa I uadaratand tbaaa aub- 
aectlona they ara mada particularly in riew of tba vary 


- 10E4 - 9-i£-48 

Mr. Jolliff« 

large subdivisions you hare in elty ridings «hsr« It asy b* 
dsairabls, Instssd of bsTlng one poll to bsTs tbs aunlolpal 
dlTlsions dlvldsd into sspsrats ooBpilatlons. Tbsr* sr* 
plaoss In the country where that is not feasibls. There 
■ay be one building In a partloular oomunity whloh lends 
Itaelf by means of roads snd everything Alse for use as a 
polling subdivision, and It aay be very desirable in that 
ease to have it arranged from A to U and N to Z In a 
division which has five or six hundred names. I hope 
that that can be permitted within the Meaning of the 

MR. DUNBAR: I did not quite understand the 
last seetion psgarding the subdividing of a poll. One 
hon. fflember has spoken of voting in the saaa building^ 
under the same roof. In my riding we have sixteen polls, 
not subdivisions, all held In one hall in the Glebe. 
They are all held in one church hall. Would this pre- 
vent that being done? The voting takes places in the 
hall because suitable homes are not available for voting. 
Is that permissible? 

MR* BLAOKVSLL: I see nothing to stop It. 

Seat ion agreed to. 

(Page loss follows) 

- 1028 - S-lt-45 

MH. C. ▲ dTHAJIGS: (Brantford): Ur , CbAlrami, la ttwr* 
any reaaon why we oould uot go baok to 3ootloa 17 aovT 

UR. BULCnriLL: The only reaaon waa indicated tbat la 
tne Vpters* Liats AOt and in thia AOt we would reserve 
thoae aeotlona involving large Baaaurea of prlnolpla, and 
we would clean up the detaila of the ACt and ooaa baek 
to thoae. Jfor thut reaaon 1 would rather continue with 
that Act in ita oroer. 

The reaaon that Section 49 waa returned to waa 
that the reaaon for which Section 49 waa reaerved waa 
reaolved in Section 50. The othera are where mattera 
which are entirely mattera of principle are being raiaed. 
MR. JTiUBQE: I thought thut aince the aaBbera 
were given ao much tiaa aa to the new principle, aorely 
they are now able to loake up their mlnda aa to whether 
they will accept such a principle or not. 1 wouIA like to 
aee this matter diapoaed of, ao that we will know where we 
are «t, rather than deferring it from day to day. 1 notice 
that there are over a hundred sectiona in thia ACt, and 
we are now up to Section 51; and I would like to aee 
Saotion Ho. 17 dealt with now. I do not know how we can 
get it baok on the floor. If it requlrea a motion, I 
would do it, ao that we might go straight ahead and deal 
with Section 17 now. 

MB. BULCKWBLL: Mr. Chairman, the Houae unanimoualy 
accepted the view that Section 17 waa to be reaerved in 
the same faahlon that the corjreaponding or like aectiona 
in the Yotera* Liata ACt were reaerved or deferred. I 
might state to the Houae that it waa not ny intention to 
proceed with Jection 17 to-daj. 

MH. STUUOI: When would it be your intention to 

SB71 fc^visa*' 


bat ,to^ Eiri;f :ti sncJ:3'i)'5 'vo air dinri? iferiJ 

.wcii Vi nol*o5c 

laiil OiQBS 9X1 J 

.1C£ cw l>esopnq 

- lose - 3-11-^ 

proceed milh Jeotloa 17? 

MB. BL^CIQinLU It beia|( a govenuMnt aMaaur*, 
X think thut In tlM ordliury eourst «• would reaum* on 
It «b«D «o thouglit the tiJM Mia rlp« to recall It. 
rrankly, I an not prepared to deal with 3aotloa 17 to^ 
day. It la a aeotlon which may or oay not lead to very 
ttubatantlal debate , and I had noit intended to deal with 
Section 17 to-Kiay. I preauae tbat what would be neceaa- 
ary would be that the Bouse would have to reverae ita 
prcTloua deolaloii to reaerva that aeotlon and the other 
aectlona In the Votera' Liata Act. 

UR. 3TBANGS: that I am rather afraid of la that 
the bualnesa of the Houaa la ao appal lln^y alow that we 
are likely to be faced with a terrific ruab, and that aoa* 
of theue princlplea nay not be given the debate that thay 
oay require. 

Frankly, I do not think there will be much debate, 
becauae I think the Hon. membera of the House xiave already 
■ade up their mlnda aa to what they are going to do with 
this particular seotioa. If it is delayed in order that 
there vat^y be repreaentut Ions from persona Intereated, there 
haa been time for thoae representationa to coia in. And, 
from my under a landing, wery little representationa had beea 
made on aeotions 21, 17 or 16. My opinion la that repreaent- 
atlona would be about equally divided for and agalnat. I 
•M qalte aetlafled thut the House la quite ready to dlapoae 
of thla aection. 

■hen I aaked you when Section 17 would be dlapoaed of, 
yoa 0iTe wm a nice, oourteoua answer, but I do not know 
whether we will deal with it at the oloae of thla Act or 
after we go throi^ the next Aoti which haa Sit aectloDS. 


ao 9 

Iff J!>oe3cnq 

•1* in. 


a>ti pais-- 


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; ) ! "5 i.4i; 

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3 5w loila 

5ectlona 51 to 61, Incluslr*, agreed to. 
TUfc uaAliMAlf: Sluixl ;>ection 6£ form part of ihm 

Hit. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Chalnnan, In oonn«ctlon with 
tbla section, auria^ tnia aisoussioa, i nave reoaaTad an 
anqulry about the peaitlon of people vhosa rellgloua aoruplea 
do not permit them to take an oath and who desire to give 
an affirmation? Form 11, referrea to in Election 62, glTea 
an alternatlTe of affirming or aolaanly awearing. I do not 
think that ia covered by the Interpretation section of th« 

liA. BLA.CKWXLL: I quite agree with the Hon. leadar 
of the opposition thtit we ahould add the worda "or affimatlca 
after the worda "subscribe the oath* 

UR, JOLLItn: I will move, seconded by Mr. Cook 
(Waterloo North) that the words "or affirmation" be added 
at the end of Section 62. 

It appears alao in the following aection, and I am 
wondering whether counsel would fix that up for ua? 

MH. BLACKVXLL: Yes, tnat would be applicable both 
to aeotion 62 and 63, and alao to aection 65* 

MR. J0U.1TFK: Yea, 

Vhi^ ciUkitiUK: Shall Section 6S, aa asfanded, form 
part of the Bill? 

Motion agreed to. 

TBI CHAli6uli; Shall section 63, aa amendaa, fom 
part of the Bill? 

Motion agreed to. 

HM, JOLLIFFI: Uia aaoe amwndmnnt ahould be in 
Section 64 and alao in Section 65. 

Section 64 and 65, aa amended agreed to. 

Soctions 66 to 66, Indus ive^a^eea to. 

99aa8 ,' 



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anw S. 


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'Oi h9r- jflx ,8a Oi dd aflOXj"09t 

• 1088 - 3-18-46 

TBI CUAiaiAH; flteli 3«otion 69 form pArt of %tm 

Ua. GAUaEUUM'. Mr. CkwinBAn, X do &ot vnot too 
b«ok up too far, but XhT9 la no proviaion in Saotion 65 
which atatea ho« tha Daputy xiatarning Officer ia goiac 
to know to which political party hia acrutineara giva 
thair allegianca. Would it ba tixa intarpratation oXauaa 
that tha rataming officer odght uak tha oandidata, or 

MB. (aoaat I. BaBVZT Caault 3ta Maria }i That ia 
covered in Section 66. 

Motion agreed to. 

Sectiona 70 to 76, inolualTt, •greed to. 

THE OHAlBMAVt Shall Section 77 form part of tha 

UH, B. I. LS4TINS (Woodbioa); Mr, Chairman, in 
clAUse 2 there the affirmation ahould go im in Section 76. 

Wherever that appeara, will that be changed? 
It ia mentioned in the form, but not in the aectioa. 

Mfi. BlACKWELLt Tea, that followa, I just wanted 
to check the form* 

THE CtUiaiAH: Shall Section 76, as amended, form 
part of the Bill? 

Motion agreed to. 

Sactiona 77 and 76 agreed to. 

Ma. HkUBY STSIL (Immbton Waat)t Section 79 ia an- 
other one. 

MB. JoLLIFFI: Thia ibight be cured by the dafinitioo 
aeotion. I do not think it ia covered in tha intarpratation 

MA. BLACiOrBLL: 1 would be aatiafied that in all tiMaa 
aaotiona the oounaal, la cheeking thia act, ahall correct that. 






.79100 a 

.ti b9 


..•5 3 


;c& . iot9 - 3-is«-4e 

MH. U4V9I8: It would b« Mtlsfaotory, Mr. Cbair- 
■an. If «• understand tlxat tHat will b« otaaiiged in ••oh oaoo. 

MB. BI^nriLL: !••• 

d«otions 79 to 66 Ineluslve, •^••d to* 

Mfi. aTHANOI: Mr. Chftlraan, I vould llko to ••k th* 
ContBultte^ If Any oonslderation was given to tho hours of 
voting? In Bost placos tho polling sub-dlvlslona tLtm op«n- 
•d •t e.OO o'clock, and In most cassa, no p«raon eoasa to TOt« 
at th« poll until half-paat tan or eleven o'clock. 

1 wonder If eny oonalderatlon vould ba given to 
opening polla at eleven, rather than at eight o'clock In the 

MB. BL^iCKNlLL: I have n«ver heard of each a aog^atlok. 

(Page 1030 follows) 





. ^■ 



- 1030 - *-l£-46 

8«otioaa 66 to 91 %gje—d to. 

TBI GHAZMIARi S«otioo 94. 

MR.HABRY C. NIXON (Brant): Z think thl« is •n 
•ppropriat* plaos to plno« th* ui«ndiMnt that I ga?« ootio* 
of th« othar day «rh«n w war* disousalng thia Bill, baoauaa 
undar tha aziatii^ law 3«otlon 96 of Tba Ilaotion Aot pororidaa 
for tha TouohlBS of TOtara in rural distriota and in tha 
amaioipalitiaa of 3.000 or laaa, and in thia draft of th« 
Bill that provision • which haa for aoaa twenty yeara baan 
in tha Ilaotion Aot tha lait of tha proTinoa and for a nuabar 
of yeara in tha Dominion alaotion law aa wall, I baliaTa 
baiog 3aotion 46 of the Oosiinion Aot. It haa baan ooittad 
from thia Bill now bafora tha Houaa, and, aa I gara notioa 
the other day, I would like to moTe that that section, whieh 
was SeotioQ 95 of The Blaotioo Aot, ahould be restored to this 
Bill. I do not know if it is tha thoughta of tha hon tba 
Attoruey General (Mr. Blaokwell) that thia matter should b« 
settled now or the seotion be held over to be dealt with bafora 
tha House with the other seotions that have been reaarvad. I 
hare no desire to inflict a apeeoh on the Rouse aa my hon. friend 
(Mr. Blaokwell) will understand, but if you wiah to dispoaa of 
this matter now .... 

MH. BLACKWILL: Like my hon. friand from Bramt (Mr. 
Nixon) I, too, hare no desire to inflict a apeeoh on tba Houaa 
on thia section. 

In the prooeedings of the Seleot CooAittee on Tha 
Election Aot, those of us who repraaented urban oonstituanoiea, 
as a mattar of fact than held and atill bold no Tiavs on tbls 
queatiou. We relied abaolutaly on the iNabara rapreaenting such 
constituencies as the hon. msAbar for Brant (Mr. Nixon) has in 

There is, howsTar, thia conaideration: There would 

00 . 


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.\S SC B40 


,fw x-*^ isrf^o ed.i lo 





I 9rBd 

at ao 

,ejf ei9riT 

0D*2 . 1031 . 8-I2-46 

••ta to t>« a littl* danger of dlffioultj Id aost ntral 

oonatltuonoiaa in tha prorinoa by tha raatoratlon of 
toat seocioa t<j tao Aot, out 1 wouia A,i^99i to ens boo. 
■aatMr from Brant (ifr. Nixon), that wa alght raaarra it 
and I would be rary nlaaaad to sit down and aea how it 
ougnt oa auitaoiy inaartaa ia tna Aot, if that SMt with 
tha Tiawa of tha rural Sfaabara of thla Houaa. I faal 
they rapreaent thoaa oonat ituenoiaa and thay ara in a 
mucQ oetter position than any uxoan ooaatituaooy ia to 
Judga thia oat tar* 

MR. NIION: It ia tha wish of tha hon. tha Attomaj 
Ganaral (Mr. biaoKweil) that thia aaaDdaank ba , v • suiKiiitt«d 

MR. BLACXMILL: I would prefer that. 

MR. J0LLIFF8: Before we leave tba point I undaratood 
tha bou. taaaDer for Brant (Mr. Nixon) to aay that ha bad io 
mind preserving the old Seotion 95. Now, old Section 95 
contains soina aafe-guarda againat the awearing io of votara 
in urban areaa adjacent to the citiea which are not really 
rural munioipalities at all. I am very ^iioh interested 
in aeeiog that tnoae aafa-guarda ara contiauea if wa ara to 
restore Section 95 or aooiething oorrespondiog to that aaotion 
to the new Act, and I am aura tha Attorney-General would 
agree toat is uecedjary. 

Z would like to aay alao, aa f^r aa I as personal ly 
concerned , I thinic I bare bean parauadad by the argumeota 
of the non. aaaoar for Brant (Mr. Nixon), that thia ia not 
tba time to daprifa rural alabtosa of that right. I raalita 
there may be caaaa whara it could oe abuaed . I uodarataod 
in tna odd place it oaa oaan aouaad. out I aa inoiioad to 
thiok now that the ri^ht of the rural elector to ba aworo in 
by bsiog Touohad for by one of hia naiffhbours ahould ba 


IbII" .1: 

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B *ei33 

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3ai©c( x«^ 

- I03«i - 5-18-46 


3eotion stenda. 

Seotlooa 96 to 100, iD0lufliT«, agreed to. 

THK CHAinfAlf: 3hall SaotioD 101 form part of 
the Bill? 

MB. BOBB^: Mr. Cbairaao, Section 101 la thia 
Seotloa under «M,oh any ohaage to preferential vote would 
ordinarily ooaie. I hare hora rather a lengthy aiaandaent 
to this aeotloii that I would iiKe to present, which 
probably may require aome consideration by the legal 
offioera of the Crown and the Attorney-General, and may not 
wlaii to dispose of this nuitter at the moment, but In order 
to get It on record now I would more, seconded by Mr. Hepburn 
(PrinMsXdward-Lennox) that Section 101 be OMnded. I do 
not know that it la tne wish of the House that I read this 
oousidoraole amendoient as it Inrolres a oonsiderable amount 
of amending forma, &c. 

MB. BLACiCtVSLL: The amendment will be printed and 
the members will hare an opportunity of reading it. 

Section stands. 

THS CHAIRTJAN: Shall Section 102 form part of 
the BlllV 

MB. 3ALSB8B0: May I, with your perndsslon, go baolc 
to Section 100? Hare I that permlaalon? I would like to 
ask of the hon. the Attorney-General (Mr. Blaokwell) whether 
that Section 100 would oorer thoae who ara illiterate. 

MISS MACdHAIL: We oannot hear a word. 

MB. SALSBIBG: I will ba glad to Mka myaalf heard. 
Z am inquiring of the hon. the Attorney General (Mr. Blackwall) 
whether Section 100 will also apply to a voter who oahnot write 
in any language and whether that proTlsion takes oara of 
it or any other provision is provided. 


JT M P. ti-r. 



'fiilG. »tii 







^aK : CBSm 



( IlawAijHi 

- 1033 - 8-M-46 

MR. BLAOKMBJ*: Mr. 0)i«irm«n» in r«spoas« to th« 
fUtttion of tba boo. a«ab«r for St. Aodr«« (Mr* Sal«b«rg) 
tb« Sootion ••«u to 99 to b« roctonably cl««r on that 
qacstion- it provides wter* a Totor does oot uodvrstaod 
th« logliab lan^aga. I thinic tbat ia a bappiar axpraaaion 
than illitaraoy. which would ba hard to oonatrua In tha 
Sanaa of Blaotion Act and whara illitaraoy raaohaa a point 
that tha TOtar doaa not understand what ia said to hits and 
ha ia unabla to oaica himaalf olaar, it ia in tha disoration 
of tha Deputy Ratuming Officer to enploir an inter prater. 
I thinK that anawara tba question. 

UR. aiLBBna: It does and it does not. I oorrectad 
ogrself whan I used the terca 'illitaraoy', I said 'did not 
'write*. There are voters and eran native born people who 
do not Icnow how to write and they are f^yeu what ia known 
aa an open rote. Now, if there are no other provisions in 
the Act, then this Jeotion aay not be auffieient to guerantae 
that they will have a right to vote. 

MB. BLACEIfSLL: May I refer tha hon. msmtoar for 3t. 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) to Section 99»-(l), whioh baa baaa 
passed already, whioh saeas to indloata tha naotianiaa for 
aaaiating voter < under this oiroat&atanoa to oaat his vote. 
If tha hon* naabar would read that aaotion it would probably 
alleviate hia alarm. 

MR. 3&L8BBB0: I an not really alaroMd.but I do 
0ilC§sst since we are providing for eaoh oaaa, aa wa aaaa to 
in the case of the blind and those who cannot read or write 
Bngliah, that if tba Attoruay-Oeaeral ia aatiafiad that that 
will take care of the type of voter that I bava in «ind, tnen 
wa will let it gp at tbat, beoauae tba 3aation he refers to 
daalaapaoifioally with tba blind. 

jaO exlcf lo 


» T 

r; <;:-.-j .^ /•» .-^ t c:- 

o »T CJ r\ 


• 1094 • S-U-46 

MR. BLACKWILL: Oh. ao, uoabl* to rsad , not 9mr%lf 

froa rtaton of bllndnast. S«otion 99.- (I) says: 

*llM dapaty raturnlng of floar oo tb« applloation 
or any Totar who la unabla to raad or la 
iaoapaoltatad by bllndoaaa or othar phvuloal 
call froa rotlng in tha aaonar praaorlpad by 
thla Aot " 

than ha oao hava tha aaalataooa aMotlooad In tha aaotlon 

and I faal that Saotion 99 (1) la tha Saotioo that la 

raally proridad to daal with tha oaaa brought up by tha 

hon. aaabar for 3t. Andraw (Mr. 3alabarg). It aaaaa to 

ba tha aaotlon that daala with lllltaraoy. which I praauaa 

la Inability to writa. If it la fsaraly a quaation that 

ha wiahaa an intarpratar ha oan ocaa down andar Saction 100. 

Ha la protaotad both waya and in viaw of tha way in whieh 

tha hon. oaabar from 3t. Andraw (Mr. 3alaberg) has put hla 

quaation I wiah tor^axpraaa myaalf aa aatiafiad that wa hava 

oovared the situation unless the hon. oMOibar froA 3t. Andraw 

(Mr. 3al8berg) haa aotaa aituation to taica up In a oonorata 

way that appeara not to b« gorernad. 

n. DUCKWORTH: A Totar wanta to vote for a 
particular iiian,but ha o«nnot raad hia ua<aa« la he going 
to hare aaaiatanoa? Say oaudidataa are Johnatou and Jonaa 
and ha wanta to ?ota for Jonaa. 

MR. BLACKWBLL: That la what tha Aot aaya, ha la 
going tu have help. 

Saotion 102 to 107. inoluaira, agraaA to* 

MB. IXATBIG: Might I aak aoaathii^ on 3aotlon 106, 
in ragard the talcing of tha ballot out of tha poll. Do you 
think there is saffioiant protaotion there, or adequate 
Ifmamktf -for doing auoh a thing? Baoauaa If ha taicea tha 
ballot out of the poll ha oannot ooaa back and dapoalt It. 
Thar« waa a day In tha good old daya whan tbay fought aleotlona 
rough and ready, whan a ballot taken out of tha poll would 

'SiW 011 


UD-6 - 1086 - »-lE-4B 

baoona a floating ballot. There is nothiog bar* 
daala wicu tuat. 

Page 1036 followa. 


'i B acooed 


- 1036 - 9-18-46. 

Sections 106 to 116 p inoluilT*, agrv^d to. 

UR. (OOm H. UITCHILL (York Itorth) : Ur. Chain 
I oust ask your Indulgenca to addraas a quaatlon to tha taon. 
Attorney Gonoral (Mr. Dlaokaall) vlth rafarenoa to Saetioo 
111, where tha aaployar hoa to fix the parloA that tba 
eiq;>loyeeB shall have tine to record their votaa. I praauaa 
all employers will be notified of the now lagislation, so 
there will be no question about it. I haTa, at tiaaa, had 
voters ooiaplQin about their eaployers not being too ooopera- 
tiTa in this regard, and I waa wondering if any atapa had 
been teiken to advise all eaployara of labour in the prov- 
ince that this is the new lav. 

UB. BLACKffSLL: That is what the lot saya. 

Sections 117 to 163, inclusive, agreed to. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall Section 164 form part of tha 

MISS AGHB8 UACPUAIL (York Sast): Ur. Chaixnan, 
when we are on the prohibitions, and llnlnr them un under 
Section 164, may I aak the non. Attorney General (Ur* 
Blackwell) if he doea not think it would be a good idee 
to bring the Provinciad Act into Una with the Federal, 
in the prohibition of car stickers or riODons or pins, or 
soma moana of identity on the day of election, no matter 
to what Party a person belongs, or what his political 
affiliations are. I find, in these tilings, tnat U\9 paopla 
understand them a lot better if the two Acta are tha aaaa, 
or aa near the aana aa poaaibla. 

Xhiring a Tadaral eleotion, on tha day of alaetiOB, 
you cannot wecu: anything; you cannot wear, or carry, or 
have on your car anything that shows, in any way, your 
political affiliationa, and I think thara la aoaathing to 

- 1037 - 5-12-46, 

be said on that. 

I uoderatand in uie Proirlnolal eieotions you oan b« 
aa flamboyant as you Ilka, eTan baTlng oarda, and ao forth, 
on the pollli^ booth, vlth the naoo of a candidate od thaa. 
1 heard, In the ia«t exection, ox one retuxiung orXioer who, 
In hl8 enthualaam, had a display card In the rooA, right la 
front of the neople while they voted, and If ha had occasion 
to hold up anything in front or iiiia iho aispiay cord was the 
last thing a person saw before he voted. I suppose the 
supposition Slight be that It being the last thing they saw 
they would vote for it, but 1 do not think that is true. 
I do not think it would have that effect. But, seeing that 
the Federal Act makes such a point of it, I was wondering 
if this committee took that into consideration, at all. 

UR. BLACKVZLL: Mr. Chairman, my recollection of the 
meetings of the ooanlttee was that that matter was not under 
consideration at that tine, and as there la no reference to 
it in the report there was no reference to it in the Act* 
As a matter of fact, the only possible detenalnatioa of the 
committee, which could be said to havs any bearing on it, 
was with a view of cutting down corrupt practices and includ- 
ing those things which were not necessarily corrupt, and re- 
moving from the Aot a number of prohibitions which it already 
contained. So 1 have not the slightest idea to-day what 
might havo been the view of the hon. members of this cocci t tee 
toward this particular question raised by the hon. ■amber for 
York East (Hiss llacphail). 

MISS UACPHAIL: Wouid you be wliliUG to aaoertain 
that by referring thia whole section back, or do you think 
it is not important enou/th for that? 

I was terribly shoci&od lu tne last election to find 

- lose - 9-12-45. 

our own people phasing out oarda in the polling bootha, 
I tald, "Uy goodneaal That ie thoroughly illegal. What are 
you doing it for?" And thoy aaid, **0h, you know your 
Federal law, but not the Protlnolal." That waa vhat reallj 
brought It to my xaind. I think perhapathqrare dazed enough 
by the day before the election, and we might perhapa gira 
theffl election day free of all baUy-hoo. 

MR. BLACKTTELL: I can only aay thia, Ur» ChalnMUly 
with regard to i^at the hon. oember for East York (Uiaa 
Uacphail) has said. Thia ia pxirely a peraonal attitude on 
the matter, but I think the question ia. Are auoh praotioea 
as are indulged in, —that is, the placing of stickers on 
windshields, and ao on, — haying any objectionable roaultat 
If not, ay whole tomperairiaent la to oroid any further 
prohibitions, oven though it might be a nioe theoretical 
thing to stop thea. 

Ia there any actual harm done by the olasa of adTar- 
tlslng i^ich is done on cars, and so on, on election day? 
I have an version to incorporating into an Act prohibitiona 
and sanctions that leave someone in the position of either 
letting a lot of people do these things or enforoing the 
Act by prosecuting them. 

Aa an ezaiq;)le of what I mean, I may say that I knov 
in the last Federal election in North Toronto, although 
there was a prohibition against advertising, and ao forth and 
so on, in that election oara were run about in the conatltu- 
ency with symbols and nximbera on them in the plaoa of that, 
and I think the matter ia one that ia worthy of conaideratioo, 
and I have no very fixed riewa, one way or the other. But, 
vnleaa there ia good reaaon for the prohibition, I would 

wo do not introduce it at thia tiiaa. 

- 1030 - 3-12-46. 

L1I8S LUCPIUIL: The only good reaccn la that soat of 
our electors federally aay get confuted about the thing and 
go around dlapliQrlng a lot of ilgn* In thalr enthualaoi and 
faith on the day of the Federal alectlon. I wish they coxild 
be the same. I do not really oara whether wo do it or do 
not do It, but I would like tbeiD to be the aaaa, Federal and 
Provlr;clal . Thla la the only way I think wo can have It 
done, beoauae I do not think we can do much about getting 
the Federal Government to change Ita viewa about It. 

MRS. fi. II. LUCKOCK (Bracondale) : Ux, Chalman, I 
feel the same way about It. In the last Provincial election, 
I, too, found aiullar thinga going on. Some polling aub- 
dlvlslona would have advertiaing of a candidate of one Pairty 
quite close to the polling booth, and one ooiogpany coc^lained 
about It. They did not know whether they ahould take It down 
or leave It up there. I think it would be better If clectlona 
were carried on In a similar manner. Let ua take all theae 
thinga out of thla field and give them both Provincial and 
Federal prohibitlona similarly. I think it would be naeih 
easier for the interpre:.ation of the law and the eaucation 
of the people. Anything I think in that way, lir. Attorney 
General {ISr. Blackwell), I think would be bettor. 

UR. hiACKSTEU^: I vouia bo interested in tearing froA 
aome other hon. membera of the House about thla queatlon. 

MISS UACPHAIL: The women are agreed. 

UR, BLaCKVSLL: Then I auggeat aomo hon. aenbera 
draft one for conalderatlon. 

UR, CHARIJIS A. STRANGB (Brentford) : Hot only la this 
really enforced federally, but I believe municipally, too, 
ao I believe the majority of the voters more or leaa expect 
It la Improper and confualng by any ahov of Identl float! oa 


- 1040 - 3-1B-46. 

of the Party you support on election day, ajid by addioc that 
olauae to thla seotion It would clear up the oonfualon, and 
bring about uniformity. 

Most of the Totora aro terribly oonfuaed on election 
day, anyway, and anything we can do to help rellare that 
condition I think ahoxild be done. 

liR. ARTHUR ▲. CA3^ELL;aN (Nlplaalng): Ur. Chalrmci , : 
do not think the rotera were confuaed at the laat election. 
I think my voters were very straightforward. Sooia of tha 
othera xaay have made mistakea. 

Tins dlAlRlUN: Shall Seotion 164 carry? 

UR. J0HI< H. COOK (Waterloo, llorth): Lir. Chairman, In 
regard to Section 164, sub-scctiona "l" and "J": llow, we aaa 
here that one haa reference to the other. Both of theae aub- 
aeotions indicate that a peraon who violates then is guilty 
of bribery, and shall incur a penalty of .^200, and shall, 
also, on conviction, be imprisoned for o term of six aontha. 

Now, that takea care of poraona directly reaponalble 
for giving or offering a bribe, but doea it take care of a 
man behind that peraon? The hon. Attorney General (Ur. Blaok- 
well) ahould know that the people who offer a bribe do not 
offer it to a candidate or would-be candidate, and I would 
like to aak if there is any provision under the Penalty 
Section for any person not directly connected with the 
bribery, but the man behind tho aoenea. 

UR. BLACKIEZX: In view of the fact that almoat all 
aub~sectiona aay "directly or Indirectly**, I auppoaa If aooe- 
body procurea any of those things he doea ao Indirectly, and 
he would come under the penalty clauae of the section* 

MISS ILACFHAXL: If you can locate him. 

UR. BLACXffSLL: If we cannot, the atatute will not 

- 1041 - 3-12-45. 

help us much. 

13. JOLLIFFE: The hon. osmber (Ur. Cook) seeae to 

want to eet at the man behind tho nmn bohlnd the thrcne -- 

l^. UULdCWBLL: The oaa behlad iLo cum behiac th« 
slot machines. 

T!{£ CIIAIRUAN: Shall Section 164 forra port of tli* 


I4R. DBmiSON: 

Itaybe «e should have this section reserred, In view of 

the objections raised. If the hon. r.ienbers want to cban^^e it, 

I think perhaps It should be given furtlior consideration* 

I have noticed in the Uunlcipal Act;, Section 127, 
that they are very, very strict in that oonneotloa in 
municipal elections. No perscn may hand another person a 
leaflet, handbill, card, ticket, or anything having upon it 
the name of any candidate. That is strong and sweeping enougb 
to even apply to a newspeper, I believe. It is very, very 
strong, and that prohibition extends to both municipal elec- 
tions and federal elections, and in view of the fact that tha 
natter was not discussed, - not directly, - at our oommlttaa 
meetings held in September and December, it might be well if 
we reserve this for a day and give us a chance to think it 
over, and perhaps the hon. members of the House might agraa 
on something. 

LR. BLkCKWELL: I am not uaverse to considering such 
an onandaant, and I am quite satisfied to resarra the olausa 
and give the hon. members a little time to think it over. 

UH, JOLLIFFS: I do not feel very strongly about it, 
either, particularly in view of the fact that sobs eleetlon 
propaganda is certainly to be seen by tho electors on elee- 
tlon day, and mere is nothing vuich should bo aone to jre- 
vent it. Billboards, posters, newax>ai>ar advertising, and so 

- 1042 - 3-18-45. 

on, can all be seen by the electors on election day, - they 

are there. 

Hovover, It is true that aoins confuaL on has be«n 
created. As a natter of fact, in one Federal by-4>lootion, 
what heppened vas this: the returning officer, who was 
a Tery experienced returning officer, called in the agents 
of the candldato, and said, '^low, lo<>k here; under this Act 
it is unlawi'ui for you to carry ou ycur cars, on exoction 
day, any cards,** but, he said, **I do not want to waste any 
time dealing witli connlalnts about that on election day; 
would you like to coae to a geutle:aan's agreeasnt, so 
there will be nc complaints, and althovigh both sides regarded 
the other as anything but jventlemen, they came to that agree- 
aent, and everybody carried cards ou election day, contrary 
to the provisions of the Federal Election Act, and there was 
no complaint, and that was the end of it. That incident 
illustrates the confusion which has arisen, because a thing 
which is permitted under the Frovlnciol Act is forbidden 
under the Federal Act and the Municipal ^^ot. 

Section 164 stands. 

Sections 165 -173, inclusive, agreed to. 

THE CHAIKUAN: Shall Section 174 form part of the billf 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Ur. Chairmsn , before 174 carries, i oust 
say that I doubt if the penalty fits the crioa, under Section 
174, for a person to vote, icnowing he has not the right to vota, 
or a person who procures or induces any other person to vote, 
knowing such other person has no ri^tht to vote, he shall ba 
guilty of corrupt pract^ise, and so lortu. it seoxu to me 
tikis is a rather serious offence. Tha offence in the preceding 
section is punished by a penalty of $400; In this section it 
is $200. m my opinion uie offence aentionad in section 174 
should be regarded as one of the aost serious offences. I know 

. 1048 - 3-l«^. 

It la not ea«7 to get the erldanM to onforo* the sect loo, 

but I think it should be taken as bain^ more serioue. WoulA 
the hon. Attorney General (Mr* biacicvell) a^ree on taat 

ISR, BLA(K?rELL: I am not prepared to make a atatament 
on the penalty. ;>uppoaa we reaerye the aection Tor the tiae 

Section 174 atanda. 

Sectiona 175 to 176, inoluslTe, agreed to. 

UR. JOLLIFTB: Ur. Chairman, I would like to aak • 
queatlon in connection with 178. la I right in underatand- 
ing that that would not diaqualify a candidate or other peraon 
convicted in a police court of oi offence under thia Act? It 
that the meaning of Section 178? Would the hon. Attorney 
General (Mr. Blackwell) give ua hia opinion? 

UR. BLACKSELL: There ia special procedure for elec- 
tion offencea, and once that procedure ia taken, it haa no 
effect, as far as disqualification stands. 

Sections 179 to 184, Inclusive, agreed to. 

UR. JOLLIFFE: Now, a similar point ariaea there, Itr. 

Chairman. I am not arguing about it; I am aiiqply raiaing the 

qaeation, whether there ia any competent tribunal, other than 

the election court, contexq>lated in the Act. Under Sectioa 

184, it aays: 

"If, on the trial of an eleotion patition, 
a candidate ia proTed to hare peraonally engagei 
any peraon, aa a canvaaaer or agent, knowing that 
be haa, within eight yeara previoua to auoh engage- 
ment, been found guilty by a coopetent tribunal of, 
or reported by, an eleotion court for a corrupt 
practice, the election of auoh candidate shall ba 

Ia there a diet in ot ion between the two? 

MB. BLaCKWXLL: No other coopetent tribunal, except 

the tribtmal aet up by the laiohinery of thia Aot. Thia 


, BOO. 


LBoudti^ edt 

- 1044 - 9-18-46. 

•tetlon dealt with the queation where It la found that peopla 
hare procured dlequal if i cation, aid ao on, vq>on the perjured 
testimony. Then a motion may be made to the Supreaa Court to 
have that dlaqualifioation lifteA. 

Sections 186 to 186, inoluslTe, agreed to. 

(Page No. 1045 follova.) 

•rr Brad 

*bt. i'liaf 

- 1046 - 8-12-46 

S«etlons 160 to 196 Inoluslr* •gr««d to. 

On ••otlon 199 » Payaantt not to h% aad* •zo«pt 
through official ag«nt. 

■R. J0LLIFP8: I b«ll«To that tha wording of aub- 
aaatlon (1) of thia aaotlon la the aaaa aa that of tba old 
aubaeotlon. I ralaad tha point bafora tha aalaat eoanlttaa 
that thara haa aoaatlaaa baan a dlffaranoa of opinion about 
tha aaanlng of tha old subaaotlon. I had ay omh Tlav of 
what It maant but it haa baan intarpretad by aosta ratumlng 
offloara to aaan that no oontrlbutlon and ao forth In azoaaa 
of $50 shall ba recalvad by or on bahalf of a candldata. Z 
alaaya hald that to ba tha wrong Intarpratatlon baaausa no 
•OBMi followa tba word "oandldata*. Tha concluding worda 
of the subseatlon ara "otherwlaa than through bla official 
agent.** But unf ortunotaly thera ara paopla who have 

undarstood it to maan that tha subaactlon prohlbita any 
contribution in azoasa of $50. I think tha Attorney 
General will agree «lth ma that that la not the right 
interpretation. 1 had hoped that the aubaeotlon might 

ba reaorded so that the matter would ba put beyond any 

MR. BLACKW8LL: I would be glad to reserra tha 
aeetion for reoonaidaration to clarify that point, baaauaa 
the intent of the seation as I undaratand it la that any 
oontrlbutlon over $50 muat go throu^ tha official agant. 

Section atanda. 

Section 200 agreed to. 

Section 801 agreed to. 

On section 202 -- Jtatsment of aleetlon azpanaat, 
ata. to be aent oy agent to returning orricera. 

MR. BLACKIBLL: Thia aubaeation aa drafted doaa 
not in ay Tlew impLamant the raaoHMndatlon of the seleet 

- a*oi 


P8or i^rt' 

981 r 

938 dl/ 8 

ad 8X8«X« 

.^ . -'V 



- 1046 - »- 12-46 


oonunltt«», vhltb is found on pftgt 15 of tb« ooBBltt««*s 
report, paragraph 3, which raads aa follows: 

*Tbat the stataaant to ba aada 

by tba oandldatas or tbalr offi- 
cial agants of oontrlbutlona ra- 
oalvad and paynents aada, ba on an 
aggregate basis ooraring any larg* 
auas donated and proper expendi- 
tures. • 

for that reason I Bova: 

*That subseation 1 of aeation 
202 be amended by atriking out the 
first three llnaa and inserting in 
liau thereof the following: 

808.- (1) A atateaent of tba aggregate 

amount of money or its equira- 
lent reaeiTed as aleetion 
eontributiona, paymanta, loans, 
glfta, adTanoas or depoaits 
and eaeb of whieb exeaads in 
amount or value $90,* 

Retaining the $S0 there maicaa this seetion eom- 
pletely consistent with the seetion we hare just reserTed, 
under which contributions orer |&0 must go through the 
official agent, who has to show on his return the aggregate 
of all contributions over $50 that eama into hie hands, plua 
detailed expenses* 

Amendment agreed to, 

MR. SALSBERO: I am in favour of this seetion but 
I wonder if it eovers the situetion adequately. Any con- 
tribution of $50 or over should be listed, levertbeless 
it is common knowledge that tens of thousands of dollara 
are contributed to aleeticn slush funds that are never 
accounted for and oan never oe traced but wnioh neverthe- 
less influence the outcome of elections and provide the 
■inawa of political war for parties and for certain 
•andidataa. From the point of view of protecting the 
public we really do not go to the root of the problaM 
by aimply aaking for a atatament. For Inatanee, as 

T m'j/ 


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.;ie id 

- 1047 - 3-12-46 

Mr. aalsltrff 

■oat hon. B«ab«rs of lue House knov, 1mt9$ stou of mouBj 
•r« spent even before an election that influence the eholoe 
of candldatea and tba outoome of an eleetlon. It la known 
throughout the country to-day that the Progreaalre Oonaer- 
vatiTe Party » for instance, anploys an ever-increaaing 
number of specialists, special adrisera in this and that 
and ere ry other phase of aoelal or oomunal Ufa, and I do 
not see how this provision vill enable the public to krow 
where the money for that purpose coses from to pay an erer- 
grovlng staff. 

furthermore, what protection haa the publle agalnat 
unduly influencing the choice of candidates and leaders 
through financial contributions which often take the font 
of engaging Individual advisers, people who with no other 
source of ineoma are allocated to party leadership and ao 
on and are able to engage themselves in all sorts of 
activities and even enhance their own poaitlon. The publie 
does not know, and thia Act la not auffieiently atrong to 
enable the publi-c to know, whose adviser is who and what 
ho gets for being an adviser. Yet this involves the 
expenditure of a great deal of money and undoubtedly 
exercises undue influence upon policy. 

MR. JOLLlfrS: It is not alwaya good advice they 

MR. SALSBBRO: I do not know to what the Leeder of 
the Oppoaltion is referring. It la aaid, for inataace, that 
the national laadtr of the Progressive Conservative party ia 
alao an adviser to certain people. I do not know whether 
that is ao or not, but if ha ahould be, and if he reeaivea 
remuneration for serving in such capacity, I would ba lo- 
elinad to think that people engaging political leedara aa 
adviaera would undoubtedly exerciae great influence upon 

SI at 

— i©fc til* 




- 1048 - »-l£-4B 

Mr. S«lsb«rt 

the pollelta of sueb indlTlduals. That rtally BMa« tb« 
atliltatlon of gr«at v«altb to lnflu«DO« polltloAl l«ftd«r« 
and polltioal partlas. 

I would ask tba Attomay Oenaral abather thla 
aaatlon, S0£, proTldas adaquata proteetion againat tha undua 
Via of waalth In influanalng tha pollalaa of polltleal 
laadara and their parties, thereby oontributlng to the 
defeat of other aandldataa and parties. la thla aaation 
aufflolent to provide againat that? I vould appraclata 
aa aasuranoa on thla point. I know that It la hard to 
find and label and to traaa, but I aa aura that thla 
OoTernmant would be willing to enact the best posalbla 
legislation to make sure thot the public will be pro- 

MP. DREW: Is thla a vote of confldanca? 

W. SALSBSRO: I am glad to aea, Mr. Gbalraan, 
that the Prime Minister still haa a aenaa of humour and 
undaratands fully what I am trying to say. I balong to 
a party that haa to oolleet penriles and dlaaa. 

AH HON. MBIBIR: Be careful, now. 
MR. SALSfiERO: The caBpalgna that our party 
conducts are eampalgns that are financed by the working 
people. I do not know how many workers contribute to 
tlM PrograsalTa ConaarratlTe party fuada. X have yat to 
eoma aoroaa one worker who did. I do not know how aany 
aaall marobanta contribute to that party *a funda. I 
have yet to coaa across any of thaa who do. But tha party 
gate tha money from aomewhere. All I want to know ia 
whether thla great ataff of advlaara and llalaon offloara 
and ao on ere provided for in a manaar that doaa not li^ 
properly Influence policy and tha election of the ecndldatac 

biuoar : 

'" .^ rr - ' 

^ *flIO0 

- 1049 - a- 12-46 

Mr. 3«lsb«rc 

of the party. Is this soot ion adequate for tbat purpoaa, 
in the mind of the Attorney OeneralY 

IfR. BULCKWSIX: The hon . mamber for 3t . Andrew 
stands 10 nis place in tn« Legislature obTiousiy sell 
elotbed and sell fed, and It Is hard for ■• to believe 
thnt his crogress has been made on nlokals And dimes of 
tne soricia^aen. It seems lo oe there aust nave been 
something more thnn the pennies of the worklngaan that baa 
oontrlbnted to my hon. friend's advance. 

1 Dexievc, 3ir, that if HIT iierbert Holt vaa a 
young man to-day and woe atartlng all over again under 
eziating clrcumstanoas his ambition would be not to be a 
leader cf finance ana xtiaustry but a laoour orgaal|Zer. 
The hon. melfcber for St. Andrew has told a pitiful tale 
to-day about the nickels and dimes that he depends on 
In comparison with the Tory or Liberal reactionary partiea, 
but may 1 suggest that if there was a complete declaration 
of all receipts and expenditures the advantage would be with 
r.u u^n. member for 3t. Andrew. 

MR. 3AL3BBR0: I did not aak the Attorney General 
aa to advantagea or disadvantages but whether he la satis- 
fied that the law aa now proposed Is adequate to protect the 
public from the undue influence of financial oontrlbutiona 
to party funds. 

:a^. BLACKW8LL: Coming right down to that point, aa 
Attorney General I have thla to aay. I do not think tbare 
is any means or declaration or Act that we could adopt 
that woula aasure toe puoiio shere Mr. Tim Buojc gets xus 
ffloay for election purposes. 

Mift flUdBmO: I would like to continue with my 
question ana aax the Attorney ^neral wneiner ne Teois tuat 



a x^~ 

- 1050 - 3-12-48 

Mr. S«lab«rc 

tba law is adequate to anabla us to kno« «hara the national 
laadar of tba PrograsslTa Conaaz^atlTa party gats his aonay, 
hov muah ha la paid now, and by «bom ha la paid. I juat 
want to follow up that quaatlon. 

Ift. BULCKVELL: I prasuma that tba proper step 
for tba hon. nember for St. Andrew tp take la to get aoaa 
■embar of the federal House to take that up. 

deetlon aa aoanded agreed to. 

deotlona 203 to SOS InolualTe agreed to. 

On aeetlon 206 -• Coounanceinent of Act. 

MR. CONNOR: Can we pasa aeotlon 206 without 
flrat taking up the reserTe aaetlonaf 

MR. BLACKWSLL: I will undertake that the bill 
will not be reported out of oonmlttee until the reaarra 
Qlausea are dealt with. 

MR. MITCHELL: We are near the end of the bill, 
whloh I believe had the full endorsatlon of the menbers of 
the aeleet oonmlttee whloh conaldered It. They were In 
aooord both on the principles and the wording of the aeo- 
tlons, and I think the time of thla Houae would have bean 
saved If we had recognized that. 

M. BLACKWSLL: 3o«a saBbars of the aeleet acs- 
mlttee have already moved amendmanta, but I will aay thla, 
that the Act .aa Introduced was Intended In principle to 
Implement the report of the seleat aoamlttee and axeept for 
minor changes I bellere It does. 

MR. MITCHELL: Tbat la the raaaon I rose» baaauaa 
It saama to ma that the tlma of the House has been taken 
ap In clearing up ao many points that might well have been 
cleared up in aommlttea. That la what the coamltteea are 
for. I realize, of courae, that tha hon. aaabara of the 



r ■•^•^•# *N I 



I9C r- 

am be 


.©e en' 




11 . . 
need e 

erfj 1c 

an 9SJ.' 


• lOei - 9-l£>46 

Mr. liltoh«ll 

Bouse mutt have the opportunity to Bftki eugcestlone end 
propose sBendBents, but It does sees to mm, nevertheless, 
that points of detail Bight hare been cleared up vhen the 
bill was before the special ooBBlttee. 

MR. JOLLIFfB: Does the bill coae into foree on 
any particular date? 


MR. JOLLIFFE: Then it elll come into force 
within the sixty days? 


Seetion agreed to. 

Section 207 agreed to. 

Schedule agreed to. 

Progress reported. 

Bill No. 37, an Act to repeal The Political 
Contributions lot was considered in conmlttee and reported. 

Bill No. 36, an Act to anend the Judicature Act, 
vas considered in committee and reportei. 

(Page 1052 follows) 





<:tT^)^rft^Tft n^ O'Tc-itt 

■ T.T.TnT. .?TTJf 







Ic.'jis iioH. eai iaeqei oJ 


saw #oA enoitud^i^aoO 

rf r? /• ^> 

!< 1 

. s,&)n- 



- 1052 - 
HUN. :;EOf{G£ A. DRIW (PriiB0 Minister): Thirtieth 


CLKiUC or TU£ UOUSli Thirtieth order, "An Aot 
respecting Prospecting 3yn(llcatea haTlnft a Capital not 
Exceeding Ten Thuuuana iMliars." kur. i^iucicwexi. 

HON. LE^LI£ K. BLACKWBLL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, Bill Ho. 42, dealing with an Aot reapectinff Pros- 
pecting uynuxcaiea mtxa luily dlsouased by m» at tne tUM of 
the second reading on the Securities Act, 1945. Nov, in 
Tlew of the fact that that Bill, The oeeurltlea Act, 1945, 
wus attached on secona reuaiix^ anu referred to tne Lcc^^i 
Bills CooBlltee, 1 am going to move Bill Mo. 42, "An ACt 
respecting ProapectlnK Syndicates having a Capital not 
Exceeding Ten Thousand i^uiiars," De now read a second tlae. 
I •■ giving ay own understanding it too, will be referred 
to the Legal Bills Coiamittee. 

Uii. JULLliZE: 1 would concur in that. 
Motion agreed to, second reuding of the Bill. 

HON. GSOinS A. DREW (Prime Ulnlster): For the 
purpose of convenience, 1 would like to call the Thirty- 
Jtighth oraer, another Bill of the Hon. a,ttorney General. 

Mri. JOLLIFFI: Do we not need a motion of reference? 

kii. BLACKWSLL: In case there is any doubt, 1 will 
move Bill Ho. 42 be referred to the Legal Bills Conaittee 
along with the securities Act, 1945. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. OttO^X A. fiiOnr (Prlae Minister); Thirty-Eighth 

CLjuOL of THX UolkiK; Thirty-Eighth order, Bill No. 
63, "An ACt to amend the Public Trustee Act." Mr. Bleckwell. 

Hum. LISLIX S. BIACKWXLL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, in rising to uove second reuding of Bill Ho. 69, 
whioh is an Act to aaand the Public Trustee Act, very little 


10 s 

tt t 'ti 




- 10S3 - »-U-4» 

need be aald In • dlaouaslon of tb« Bill* 

In 1942 vhen the Bon. ■•ml>«r for Ilgin (Itr. 
M* f . Hepburn) ims then Prime Minister, an aafendaent wm» 
enaoted to tti« Public Trustee Act wniob prevented th« 
public trustee in inTestln^ funds which held in trust 
In any security other than the Province of Ontario bonda. 
It was an extraordinary ajBendment to go through the Boos* 
in view of the fact, among other things, Canada «as than 
at war. It prevented the public trustee frciu InTesting 
any of those trust funds In Tlctory Bonds, and this Bill 
is being introduced to cure that situatlont and restore to 
the public trustee the ordinary inventing power under that 
▲ct which will enable the public trustee to invest such 
funds in Victory Bonds and other trustee seoorltles under 
the statutes. I therefore move Bill No. 63, An Act to 
aaand the Public Trustee Act be now read a second time. 

MB. ▲. WILLIAMS (Ontario): Before it Is carried, 
I w'ish the Hon. Attorney General would give an explanation 
further. 1 am qaite in fa-vour of the public trustee being 
permitted to invest funds in the Province of Ontario and 
the Dominion of Canada, but I am not so certain I would 
be in favour of investing funds anywhere he likes. Maybe 
the ACt that was passed restricting the rights for investing 
only In the Provlncd of Ontario might hove been too narrow, but 
will the Hon. Attorney General tell us here, or tell ma, 
anyhow, whether a repeal of this section might not aaka It 
too wide? 

HON. GEOROB A. URBl (Prime Mlnlater): This restores 
it to the position it was before and permits the investment of 
trust in trust investiMnts. 

MR. WILLIAMS: 1 do not know what it was before. I 
never had this wealth that 1 could throw around. 

, XJDlr 

ii.) .MOH 


BQS - 1054 - 5-12-45 

MB. BLA0KW1I.L; Baa tb« Hon. aasber, Mr. Speaker, for 
Oatario (Mr. ffliilaaa) got th« 3«ctlon before him, the inTeet- 
Bant aaotloD? 

MR. IILLIAUS: I only bava the Bill. 

MM. BLiOKIIBLL: I vlll read it: 

"S6 - (1) A tiTUtttee uavxa^ ooaey in his tiaoda 
vhioh It la his duty, or vhloli it la In liLa dla- 
eratlan to Inrest at Intereat, aay Inraat tha 
aaaa in the dabantures, bonda, atook or other 
aacurltloa of, or guaranteed by, the QoTernBant 
of the Dominion of Canada, or of or guaranteed 
by any Province of Canada, or of the Governoent 
of the United Kingdom, or of any municipal oorp- 
oration In Canada, Including debenturea laaaed 
for public school purpoaea or guaranteed by any 
municipal corporation In Ontario, or secured by 
or payable out of ratea or taxes levied under 
the lav of any Province of Canada on property 
situated In such Province and collectible by (m 
through the municipality In which such property 
la situated, li; the same manner and with the 
aame rights of enforcing payment, as In the case 
of general municipal taxes in aueh municipality, 
or in securities which are a flrbt charge on 
land held In fee almple in Ontario, Manitoba, 
Saskatchewan, Alberta or British Columbia, pro> 
vlded such Investments are in other respects 
reasonable and proper, or he toay entrust the 
aame to a trust company incorporated or licensed 
under the laws of Ontario for guaranteed Inveat- 
ment as set out In *The Loan and Trust Corporations 
AOt', provided that in the case of a company 
licensed under the law of Ontario it has been 
approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. 

(2) Subject to the provlao In aubsectlon 1 
any money already invested In any such stock, 
debentures or securities shall be deemed to have 
been lawfully and properly Investedo 19£6, c.40, 
s.£7, (See also The Loan and Trust Corporations 
Act, H*v. 3X.&1. C.223-) 

MK. H. NIJtuM (Brant); Does the Bon. Attorney 0««ral stUl 
think there ahould not be any restriction? 

MH. BLACdttlL: No, I would not think so. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The Hon. Attorney uenaral naa juat 

read Section 26 of the Trustee moX which appllea not only to 

the Public Trustee but to othf>r trustees. This whole provision, 

aa 1 take it, simply restores it to the position it was oefore 

the 1942/and plaoea the public trustee in the saaa poaltlon as 
any other trustee. 


Q^ - 105B - 5-12-45 

UU. BLiOmiXt Thftt is rleht. 

Motion ^^••t to aad Bill read tb« aacond tlao. 

-1056- S-lf-48. 

HON. GXOBGI ▲. DREW (Priaa Ulnlat«r) : Ord«r Ho, 

CXAK Of THE BDUBI: Fortieth Order. 3«ooad read- 
itxg of Bill No* 65, '*An Aot to amend the Xvldence let," )ix, 

HON. LSSUI X. BLiCKIBLL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, with regard to Bill 65, being an AOt to amend the 
Sridenee Act. If the hon. aenbera wlah to follov the not* 
attached to this Bill, It Indlcatea pretty well the prlnol- 
plea of the Bill. These overcome not only for goremoenta, 
but for private corporatlona, xinder proper safeguards and 
proper clrouostanoea, the obligation of holding voluminous 
records to the end of time, and It enables those to be taken, 
subject to the safeguards of this Act, on microscopic film, and 
thereby preserved, with great saving in space, and also It 
enables the maintenance of duplicate records taken by the 
same process to be kept in more than one placa, which pra- 
vents the permanent loss of records by catastrophy. 

It will Interest hon. members, I am sure, to have ma 
remark, In that connection, that if that system had not been 
In force in England, and applied under the Svldanea Aot there, 
on account of the bombings and burninga, countleaa recorda 
would have been lost in Sngland which in this faahion ara 
still available. 

I therefore move that Bill 65, «An Act to aaand the 
Evidence Act," be now read the second time. 

notion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Ulnlster): Order No. 91. 

CLIRK OP THE HOUSE: Thirty-first order. Second read- 
ing of Bill No. 44, "An Act to amend the Public Health Aat," 
Ur. Vivian. 

HON. R. P. VIVIAN (Minister of ueaxth) : Mr* Speajser, 

-1057. 5-12-46. 

m rising to moTe seooad reading of Bill No. 44, "An Aot to 
UMnd the Public Health lot," aaj I say that aa all tbe hon. 
■embers of the House will have the Bill before them, thej 
will note that the proposed enendaents are a nunlMr laeklng 
a common principle, except to tidy up the Public Health Aot 
in its administration, and I will deal with them singly. 

The purpose of Section 1 is to oake it possible for 
regulations prescribing the standard for premises for publle 
cold storage of food for human consumption, and is a most 
important one, with the growth of units which are rented to 
the general publie in the form of lockers. The establish- 
ment of the type of cold storage for food grown largely by 
the persons who rent the lookers is something that is rery 
nocesaary, with the set of standards being set up and main- 
tained through instruction. The purpose is to do this by 
the amendment, and by so doing to provide a system of sus- 
tained supervision over what could be a very real hazard 
in the c(»isuiq;>tion of food, and it is fslt that a license 
t— of five dollars per year should be set up. 

Section 2 of the bill is simply a matter of tidying 
\4> an amendment which was put through this House last year 
regarding the regulations governing swimoing pools, as to 
location, construction, alterations eoid repairs. 

Section 2 of the bill also allows any local 
municipality to have the right, which waa previously limited 
to municipalities adjacent to larger centres. 

Section 3 of the bill: this amendment is necessary 
in the establishment of health units composed of partly- 
organized and partly-xxnorganized territory, and is illustrat- 
ed by the fact that not only were new health units recently 
established, but there were two municipalities in a territorial 
district which united to form this health unit* It waa con- 

- 1058 - S-12-4S. 

sidered to b« Tftry desirable to hare eoiae adjacent ■urroundlBc 
territory included in the unit, the proTlnoe paying the coat 
of the seryloea for thle unorganized territory. The lot hae, 
up to now, however, not made any provision for the designation 
of the area which could be Included in such a health unit, and 
this proposed amendment will deal with that. 

UR. GEORGE H. UITCHBLL (York North) : Is It In order 
to ask the hon. Minister a question, lir* Speaker? 

MR. aPEAKBR; If you care to. 

HR. MITCHSLL: Have you arrived at any basis relating 
to provincial contributions, with reference to these health 

IIR. VIYIAN: Three units have been paid at the rate of 
50 per cent. 

Now, Section 4 of the bill — 

MR. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Ontario): Mr. Speaker, I would 
like to ask the hon. kxmster of Health a question, if I nuiy. 
Before you get to Section 4, is this a misprint, the word 
"six* In Section 2, sub-section 2, where it reads, "six per 
centum of the deferred payments.** Should that not be "three 
per centum"? 

MR. VIVIAN: I will answer that In a moment. I think 
we were do«i to Section 4, and we win came back to the one 
in connection with which the question was raised by the hon. 
neiriber for Ontario (tfr. Williams). 

Section 4 of the bill adds a new section to the Act. 
This oiendment was requeeted by the City of Ottawa, whieh is 
desirous of vesting the control of the Isolation Hospital in 
the General Hospital in Ottawa, isolation nospltals are a 
Boniclpal responsibility, under the Board of Health, in this 

way, a ■unloipality nay secure isolation faoilities, and have 

those faeilitles operated by the General Hospital, within the 

- 1059 - 3-K-45 

In answering tb« qusvtlon by the Bon. Mmber for 
Ontario (Mr. fllliAms) the six per centum Interest rate 
la not being aaeniiedi it Is aa It vaa. 

Section 5 of the Bill adds a nev seotlon e&lob baa 
been given the greatest consideration by this governnent, 
and I am assured by many of the Hon. meBbera of the House, 
In matters that deul with prenioea used for the care of the 
aged or the infirm, on a rental basis. It haa baan very 
difficult to make an amendment that eouid meat the need and 
satisfy the conditions, without constructing such an amend- 
ment that would uttke it almost impossible for those who 
do care — care very well — for our mged people in their 
own homes, and this amendment propoaes to give the medical 
officer of health of that locality the power to ensure that 
conditions In those premises are satisfactory. 

Section 6 of the Bill — It Is the laat section — 
adds a new sub-section. The situation Is this; that tha 
Act as It now reads authorizes a school board to enter lnt« 
an agreement with a county to provide for the Msployment of 
public health nurses in schools. This amendment Is nacessaxy 
ao aa to make provision for dealing with a situation In which 
this service is not established in all of the achoola of a 
county. The amendment will enable a partial aervlca to be 
established, and the cost of that service to be charged a^lnat 
only those local munlclpalltlea which receive the aervlca. 

liR. asOiCS H. UITCUSU.; (York North): Mr. Speaker, 
If I once again might have the Indulgence of the House for a 
moaaBt; in regard to the matter of the care of theaa aged paopJm,, 
and the determlnatlca by the local 11. 0. B« as to the oondltloma. 
I think the uoat Important factor there la the allowances 
which these old people receive, do not enable tham to pay 
for adequate locationa in many oaaea, they bave to look for 

- 1060 - 5-12-46 

the bttok ooDovaslon r»8ld«iio«a, to oftrry on, aad«r tb«ir 

Uii. VIVIAM; kr. Speukvr, vitnoui onterli^ into 
A dabat*, my Z say that tbera Is a aubjoot vbleh ttxa Hon. 
BtBbar for York North (Ur. Ultohall) might better ralsa 
at a later tiaa. la oonnactlun «ltn thia aeotlon, ■# 

are speaking of our aged, and mildly sanlla, and infira* 

The medical officers of health are thoroughly /to daoida 

that ifisue, anytima. The question raised by the Bon. ma«- 

ber for York Uorth (Ur. Mitchell) is entirely Irrelevant. 

n. WILLIaU QBNKISON (St. ijaTlds): I would lika 
to speak on this, but, as it is uo« six o*clock, if you vlah, I 
move the adjournment of the debate* 

UR. SPSAJOSR: Oo ahead. 

UR, DSMNISON: Does this extend to the principle 
with regard to sewage disposal, which might cause more 
pollution in existence, where towns, cities and Tillagea 
have no sewage disposal facilities? At the present tlB« 
the ACt does not allow the local Board of Health in any of 
the amall districts — under two hundred thousand, I believe 
is the number — to say to a householder, "You must join up 
with the sewage system in that city", and if we pasu thla, 
we extend the rights to the local boards of health to ask 
anyone in the towns or Tillages of this province, no matter 
what size, that the householders must be connected with the 
local sewage system. This nmans that in this provin/^9 «« 
have about fourteen cities, nearly fifty thouaaad villages 
without any disposal facilities whatever; they are pouring 
raw aewage into thelakas, streams, and rivers of this provime. 
1 think it is a public diagrace. le are now giving thea 
the right to pour more sewage thera, not treated, but raw 
sewage, destroying the streams, and removing from the whole 

- 1061 - 5-12-45 

of thin Proline* valuAbla mineral alaciAnta «hleh should 
b« removta irou. lotxi ae«ao« snd rcturaea lo tn« land. 

How, it ae«ma to n* *o should leave the Act for 
the aonant as It Is, until ve are prepared to give th« 
cities auvioe, help, and perhaps floanoiai assista&oa in 
building proper sewa^^e disposal facilities. ■• should 
not like them to go to the people who now have other means 
of sewage disposal — various other systems that may be 
working well — and require them to Join up with the city 

iir. Speaker, I Just want to raise that point. 
1 think it is a principle that we should hesitate at this 
time to adopt. 

HON. OEOiCI A. DREW (Prime Minister): Iir. Spaaksr, 
■ay 1 suggest that the point raised may very well be raised 
in oonmittee, where the sections will stand by themselves, 
as this does not affect the priuoiple of the Bill. 

liRS. R. U. LUCOCK (Bracondale) : Ur. Speaker, in 
regard to section 5, concerning aged people; I was wondering 
if that should not be taken up on third reading* I think 
there should be more than one person if a complaint comes 
in. If a complaint is made by a person, there should be 
somebody to appeal to. Oould it be dealt with in eoaaittee? 

MR. VIYlAn: Ur. Speaker, the principle is before 
us now and the details may be manoeuvered a little later on. 

Motion agreed to; The Bill read the second time. 

HOM. GEO^X A. DREW (Prtae Minister)! Mr. Speaker. 
I move the House do no w adjourn. 

MR. XUVAid) B. JOLLIffX (X^eader of the opposition): 
Would the Hon. Prime Minister indicate again what we will be 
doing to-aorrow and to«m<rrow night? 

[Hd - 1062 - 9-i2>45 

HON. GIOHOE ▲. bhn IPriiM MlnUtar): T«s. 

AS indicated on Prid«y, «• «1I1 proc««d riglit through with 
th« op««oli rron tn« Tnron* to-oorrov. 

kR. JOLLUfli Both afternoon and OTanlngT 

UK. DREW: That la right. 

Motion agraadtDitne Houaa adjourned at 6.05 p.B. 

- lOM - 




Toronto, Ontario » 
TuaaAay, Maroh 13» 1945. 

SFIiOfi: Honourable WllllaB J. Stewart, c. B. B< 

The Ilouae net at 3 o'clock. 

Prajrera • 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 

MR. JIUBS de C. HEPBURN (Prince Edward-Lennox) : I beg 
leave to present the second report of the standing Coniolttee 
on miscellaneous privaLo bills aind xdots its adoption. 

CLSSK OF THB HOUSE: Your Standing Conmlttee on aieeel- 

laneous private bills begs leave to present the following as 

Its second report: 

"Your Committee begs to report the following 
Bills without amendment: - 

Bill (No. 5), An Act respecting the City of 

Bill (No. 9), An Act respecting the City of 

Bill (No. 12), An Act respecting the City of 
Port Arthur. 

"Toxir ConiLittee begs to report the following 
Bills with certain amenrtments: * 

Bill (No. 4), An Act respecting the Royal 
Ottawa Sanatorium. 


- 1064 - 3-13-49. 

Bin (Ho. 7), An Aot rt«p«etin< the City of 
Peterborough Cirlo Hocpltal. 

Bill (No. 13), An Aot respeeting the City of 
Ottawa Seperote School BoarA. 

Your Cooualttee would reooMwad that the 
fe#8 leaa the ponaltiea, if any, and the actual coat 
of irlntin^ be remitted on Bill (■0.4), An Act 
reapeoting the Royal Ottawa Senatoriun, on the 
ground that it relates to a charitable inatitutlon, 
and on Bill (No. 13), An Act respecting the City of 
Ottawa Separate school Board, on the grounA that it 
relatea to an educational institution.* 

notion agreed to. 

MR. UARRY A. STSVABT (Kingston): I beg leaTe to 

present the final report of the Standing Connittee on Stand- 

• * 

ing Orders, and move its adoption. 

CLKRX OF HOS HOUSS: "Your Standing Cocmittee on Stand- 
ing Orders begs loave to present the following as their 
Third Report: - 

"Your Conmlttee has carefully considered the follow- 
ing Petitions and find the Notices as published in eaoh 
case sufficient. 

"Of the Corporation of the City of London, praying 
that an .iCt may pasa authorizing the Corporation to 
provide additional acooimnodation at the Victoria 
Hospital at a cost of $100,000.00, and to aaend the 
Act to incorporate the Vestem Fair Asaoclatlon. 

"Of the Corporation of the Township of Stanford, 
praying that on Act may pasa granting the Township the 
standing of a town for the puxposes of Section 12 of 
the Assessment Act and Section 24 of the Public Health 

"Of the Corporation of the Township of Teck» pray- 
ing that an Act nay pass authorizing the said Corpora- 
tion to ten&lnate an agreement with the Teok-Hughes 
Gold Uines, Limited, i>roviding for a supply of water. 

"Of the Corporation of the Town of Paris, praying 
that an Act may pasa authorizing the purchase by the 
Petitioners of the Paris Arena trcm tne Paris Arena, 
Limited, and the issue of debentures of $6000,00 there- 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. SPEAKER; Motions. 

Introauotxon of bills. 

HON. LBSLXB S. BLACXWBLL (Attorney General) : I moTt, 


- 1065 - 3*1S>4S. 

•aoonded by th« hon. Ur. Frost, that Ioat* b« glvan to 
Introduoe a bill Intitulad "An Act to «Mnd tba Liquor 
Authority Control Act, 1944,** and that aaaa ba now read a 
first tiiaa* 

Uotlon agraad to and bill read tba first tiaa, 

UB. JOHN H. COOK (Waterloo Nortb): Would tba bon. 
Attorney General give an explanation? 

MR. BLACKIBLL: Ur, Speaker, the bill, as franad 
last year, provided that the expenses of tba Board be paid 
by the Treasurer of the Provinoa of Ontario. 

This is siiqply an aaendment for teohnical reasons, 
to provide that the expenses be paid by tba Liquor Control 
Board. The reason for that is that it is thought desir- 
able, for the purpose of revenue relations with tba 
Dominion Government, that the expenses of this Board, whiob 
takes the place of the Hotel Department of the Board, ba 
continued to be paid for aceoxinting purposes. 

UR. HABRT C. NIXON (Brant): I beg to move, seconded 
by Ur* Hepburn (Elgin), that leave be given to introduoe a 
bill intituled "An Act respecting the Town of Paris," and 
that same be read a first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

UR. WILLIAM J. GRnMIBTT (Cochrane South): I move, 
seconded by Mr. Dennison, that leave be given to introduce a 
bill intituled "An Act raspectin^ the Township of Teck," and 
that same be now read tho first tlas. 

Uotion agraad to and bill read the first tias. 

HON. QXORGB H. DODCBTT (Minister of Highways): Movwd 
by ayself, seconded by Mr. ChaUies, that leave be givan to 
introduce a bill intituled "An Act to anand the Hi^wsy B^provw- 

. 1066 - 3-15-45. 

iwnt lot," and that aama ba now raa4 a firat tlaa. 

Motion agraad to and bill raad tha flrat tlaa. 

MR. GEORQB H. MITCHELL (York North) : Would tha hon. 
ICiniatar kindly anllghtan ua? 

UR. DOUCETT: Tha only changa in tha prinoipla in 
this bill ia making it permiaslbla for a county to appoint a 
suburban eoomiaaion aa your County Boad Coonittaa. Tha 
rest ara minor aioandaanta to tha Act. 

MR. CYRIL OVERALL (Niagara Falls) : I bag to uoto, 
aaoondad by Mr. Rigga, that laaw ba givan to introduoa a 
bill intltulad "An Act reapaotlng tha Township of Stazaford," 
and that sama be now raad a first tlaa. 

Motion agread to and bill read the first tima. 

MR. THOMAS L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): I mora, 
seconded by Mr. Goodfallow, that leave be given to introduoa 
a bill intituled **An Act respecting the City of London," 
and that sane be now read a firat tlaa. 

Motion agread to and bill read tha flrat tiaa. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. GEORSE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Third Order. 

CLERK (F THE HOUSE: Third Order, reaualng tha 
adjourned Debate on tha aaandjasnt to the anendnant to tha 
motion for the consideration of the Speech of tha 
Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at tha opening of tha 
Seasion. Ur. Drew. 

MR. A. A. MaoLBOD (Bellwoods): Mr. Spaakar, whaa I 
moved the adjoumaant of this debate on Thuraday laat, I 
boxxeve It was, I was discussing the ciroumstancas of tha 
laat Session, and I recalled that at that tlaa all partiaa 
in tha Lagialatura had ahown a eoqpleta willingnaaa to 

. 1067 •> 9-13-4S. 

BAk* It posalbltt for the GoTormant to loplMwat Its Bt-point 
oleotlon platform. 1 stated than, and I repeat nov, that no 
(fOTernnent in Ontario's history had ever foced a more eo- 
operatiTe Opposition. I cannot say, of course, that the 
Covemnant reciprocated. Uany practical and reasonable pro- 
posals were put forward by the Opposition aenbers, but few , 
if any, were accepted. 

When the Seaaion ended none of us, I think, were eoa* 
pletely satisfied with its results, and we, on our part, 
strongly urged that a special Session be called in the Tall 
to deal with unsolved problems. In this connection I pointed 
out the utter absurdity that this suprena Tribune of Ontario, 
charged with the responsibility for 3,500,000 people, and 
passing appropriations amoxinting to ;^130,000,000, should meet 
only 7 weeks in the year. 

The sumiaer months passed and, so far as we could see, 

the Government was hibernating. In August the Tory bear 

emerged, and on the 9th of that month the Premier appeared 

before the microphone to make what was generally regarded 

as probably the most outrageous speech ever delivered by a 

public man in this province. In common with leaders of 

other opposition groups, I issued a public statement condem- 

ing the Premier's speech, from which I quote: "Augvist 13,1944. 

"Premier Drew*s shocking statement that his co^mmant 
will do everything in its power to prevent the 
implementation of the Dominion Family Allowance Act 
should cause a revulsion of feeling among all tha 
people of this province, as it moat certainly will 
in other parts of Canada. It is significant that 
Mr. Bracken lost no time in cortnondinc Ur. Drew's 
stand, which ho termed *a natural reaotion*. Be 
upholds lir. Drew*s arguasnt that Ontario is juati- 
fied in retaining its revenues for its own Social 
oervicea even to the detriment of the national 
interest. That should finally dispose of any 
motion that lir. Bracken is a fit persoa to place 
at the national helm. 


- 1068 - 8-1S-49. 

•tprcaaitr Drew*c teolaratlon of mr agaiiMt th« 
proTlno* of ^ueboe is nothing !••• than • oaleulat- 
od attempt to destroy the Tary eoDfederatlos vhleh 
he profeaaes to defend, and ia all the nora dea- 
plcable coming at a time when Canadiana of all raeea 
are voluntarily offering their livaa on tha field of 
battle for their eountry*a aurriral aa a united nation. 

**If Premier Drew tblnka he can ataoDada tha people 
of Ontario into a rejection of Family Allovaneea by a 
campaign of racial prejudice he ia due for a rude 
awakening. The Premier advancea the apeeicua argUMant 
that Ontario could give Ita people greater benefita for 
the money it will have to contribute to a federal 
scheme of Family Allowance, It la only neeeaaary to 
point out that auch a policy would obvloualy make 
Ontario an object of acorn in other Provincea, alnoa 
all of them, by the very notxire of thinga, contribute 
to the favoured position which Ontario ocoupiea in our 
national life. Would Ur, Drew carry hia argumant to 
the point of auggeating that Ontario ahould inatituta 
ita own scheme of war-aerviee gratuitiea, and thua 
deprive the fighting men of the Weat, Qxiebec and tha 
Uaritlmea of the benefita they receive under tha 
recently enacted federal plan? Perhapa that will ba 
the next atep in hia mle or ruin policy. 

"The Premier's outburst will be recognized, I am 
sure, as an attempt to divert the attention of tha 
electorate from hia own abyamal failure to grapple 
with those problems which lie within the provincial 

"One marvels at the effrontery of Mr* Drew in 
presuming to commit the people of Ontario to thla 
outrageoua courae of action. Let it not be for- 
gotten that on August 4th of last year, two out of 
every three people who went to the polls voted 
againat Colonel Drew. Indeed, he ia Premier of thla 
Province only becauae the members of all parties in 
the Legislature were willing to grant him m 
opportunity to enact the refoms pledged in hia 22 
polnta. This he has fal led to do. 

"nnxile I very muon douot nnether Premier Drew 
haa the courage to teat hia caae before the Legla- 
latxtre, I am convinced that the time haa now coaa 
for the fifty-two Opposition members who repreaant 
two thirds of the electorate to Inaiat on an i»> 
mediate Seaalon of the Houae, eind there demand that 
the Pxamlar either abandon hia propoaed oouraa of 
action, and impleoent hia eleotion pledges, or raai^i 
and make way for a government more truly repreaontativa 
of the beat interests of Ontario and the nation. 

"For the members of the Legislature to maintain 
a policy of alienee or inaction on auoh a grave 
natter would be a betrayal of tha honour md intagrity 
of the people of Ontafio*" 

It will be recalled that Premier Garaon of Manitoba 

- 1009 - 8-1S-40. 

al«o took sharp laaue with Pramlar Drew, aa did tha praialara 
of othar provlnoaa. If I ramambar oorroctly, tha praalar 
haa avan during thla Saaalon attamptad to glTB tha ii^raaaloa 
that Ur* Garaon ahai^d hla attltuda tovard tha Dominion 
Family Allowanoaa Laglaiation. For thax raaaon it la wcrtft 
recalling azactly what Ur* Garaon did aay In two langthy 
la t tars to the "Globa and Uall", from whloh I quota a amall 

(Paga No. 1070 follovs.) 

kr. UttcLeod. 
- — -1070*. 

4^ter taking Issue with the Globe and BSil in Its sttespt 

to nake him a bed fellow of the Ontario Premier, Ur. (Sarson 

oltea that portion or tne irecaer's speson in «r.ioa at OAid: 

"ffe have no thought of adopting any dog in 
the oanger attitude as far os Ontario is 
oonoerned. We recognize that «e have great 
advantages. It is likely these advantages 
will inorease as time goes on." 

"But," continued kr. Qarson, "these 
sentiments are included in Premier Ure«(4 
speech as hia own commentary upon a little 
sum in arithmetic which precede* them and 
which are in direct conflict with then." 

Ur. Oarson is referring, of course, to the Pr^r/ier's outllb* 

of whttt he could do with a hundred uiillon uoilars. 

"It is Premier i)rew*a arithmetic and its 
implications with which I profoundly disagree,* 

says Ur. Carson. 

"CoiiUng from a man of his enlightened view 
Iflnu it very confusing. Uut 11 this confusion 
is resolved, a sui'e rule is that when the 
rhetoric of a speech conflicts with its 
urithaetlc, it is prudent to heed the arith- 

Now, continuing in the letter, Ur. Gar son says the 


'*When Premier Drew undertakes to tell the 
people of Ontario what the Ontario Government 
can do with this ^100,000,000 of Federal 
Government tuxes collected in Ontario if 
the sume amount of money were handled by the 
Provincial Government, he is referring to 
Billions of dollars of taxes tiliich do not 
oome out of Ontario pockets at all. How, 
therefore, can this proposal of Premier 
Drew's be reconciled with his pronounce- 
ment in the same speech to the effect that 
Ontario is prepared to share for the oooMoa 
welfare of all the people of Canada the 
advantages which it enjoys under Confed- 
eration? How can the people of Ontario 
ever beooiue, in the terms of Premier Drew's 
own languat^e, willing to share these ad- 
ventages if they are led to think that the 
inauguration of a national family allow- 
moe scheme will mulct them In Federal Gov- 
^maBi> taxes in the sum of |100, 000,000 
per yeur, particularly if they ere further 
led to think that this large mm, if trena- 
lated into the Provincial Treasury in some 


B2 - ^^^^ - 3-13-46 

. Ur. llMoUod. 

"unexplained mnner, can provide thes with 
Proviuciul tforvicee beyond tiie dreootf of 

**Iu hitt apeeoh Premier Drew ooncen- 
triktea upon one espect of feoily allowenoee, 
ouMly* the ooet. Ue disousees ttxis eobeai 
as if it were aareiy a new Federal Tax 
burden to be iapoaed upon Canada, iucludlng 
Ontario. Ue i^^orea the probability that 
family allonances will so utiaulate oon- 
flumptiun and enployaent, ano thus ao in- 
oreaue the Natiunal Inoooe of all the 
people of Canada that they will tend not 
to increade, but to reduce the Canadian 
people's tux buruen au a percentage of the 
iacua«« which they earn.** 

Mr. Carson taloeo ahurp issue with the PriiBO lUnla- 

ter's attituue towarus i^uebeo and says; 

"The oonceusus of informed Canadicm opinion 
is that family allewanoea, supported by 
Federal Taxes levied in accordance with 
ability to pay would undoubtedly effect a 
redistribution of income as between well- 
to-do and less well-to-do persons and be- 
tween well-to-do and less well-to-do com- 
munities, and that if this is to be done 
with any real efficiency in Canada, It Boat 
be done on a tiational scale. If provided 
properly ou a National scale, competent 
people believe that family allowances oould 
be one of our most efficient depression 
preveutors. This redistribution of in- 

come on a national scale would not, as 
Premier Drew seena to imply, make all of 
the people of the Nttion poorer, or iiake 
the whole population of Ontario poorer. 
On the contrary, competent persons believe 
that it tends to create conditions whioh 
will make the nation as a whole richer. 
If that is 80, Ontario, in the centre of 
all Canadian business, would be richer, tee." 

With the greatest respect, I suggest that this 

coupling of (^uebeo will not facilitate the aolution of 

the c^uebeo issues. It is muoh more likely to impede tha 

aolution of the problem in connection with the Quebec 

Issues. This problem will be difficult enough without 

•oupXing it up in this way. Ha other laaue In thia 

country is of comparable importance, for aoolal aeourltj 

aad national prasperity. 

Hew, Mr. Speaker, the upahot of thla vbola 


- 1078 - 3-i3-46 

Mr. MftoUod. 

oontroTeroy wms that our PriBs kioister last aatuBB «eot 

Into hiding, --In fitot, left tho oountrjr to flud * o«« 

lasu*. — and he has had little to eay about fuUly aIIov- 

anoes until the opening of this Seas Inn, when he uede a 

rather feeble attempt to get out fron unuer. The Houaa 

will recall that In the early days of the aaaalon I put 

a rery almple queatlon to the Premier. I quoted hla 

Auguat 9th apeeoh, In which he saldt 

"I aaaure you that the government Intenda 
to do everything within Ita power to make 
•ure that thia inlqultoua Bill does niot 
go Into effect, — we will not concur In 
any such nlgh-handed procedure by the Dom- 
inion governotent." 

I aaked the Premier what he proposed to do to 

carry out his threat, anu there was no answer. On February 

23rd, the Preoier told this House: 

"AS to the suggestion that we Intend to take 
any legal steps to prevent the Dominion AOt 
iron going into effect, that is not our 
Intention and It haa never been our Intention." 

Well, Mr. spculcer, at that point the gate-lceeper 
at the Valley of Uumiiiatiun, I feel quite sure, auuounoed 
the arrival of George Alexander Drew. 

So that the great drama begun on August 9th, turned 
out to be a farce. The Premier himself resomblea the charac- 
ter In Ollbert and Sullivan* a "Utopia Limited": 

"A complicated gontlaman, allow me to present. 

Of all the arts and faculties the tersa embodi- 

Ue*s a gr< at arithmetician who oan daaonatrate 

with ease 

That two and two are three or five or anythlBg 

you plaaao; 

An eminent logician wlie can make it clear to you 
That black is white - when looked at frou the 

proper point of view; 
A marvelous philologist who* 11 undertake to show 
That "Yes " is but another and a neater form 

of -Bo". 


ki .'!» 



— ,ei/a&i 



■T Ii 

-•UJ Oo 

iuio'i a3j*»»fi 

- 1073 - 3-13-45 

lir. ltooto«4. 

But, Ur. SfMikar, the nugust 9th tpe^ob lives on 
lu the luemory of those who seize evex^ eppertunlty to 
asllgn end slender the people of <^uebee end their ooa- 
petrlots in the Province of Ontario. Here is en ex- 
ample. The Olobe and lie 11 of February the 19th quotes 
Doctor Clarice It, Sllcox» a Tory bralntruster, as 

"There has been a notable colonization .of 
Northern Ontario points by Aoiaan Gathollo 
French Canadians, unaer the tseneral dir- 
ection of the Church, in areas where the 
naln crops seem to be potatoes and children, — 
and the potato crop is not very good at 
that. " 

This Is the same Doctor Sllcoz who, in speaking 
of French Canadians, In a pamphlet called "The Hevenge of 
the Cradles" says "they breed while we bleed." Is not 
that lovely? 

Ur, Speaker, I think that all in all the Leader 
ef the Opposition was given to understatement when. In 
moving his amendment, he said "the fi:overnment of this Pro- 
vince has not assisteu tnc cause oi' Nuciunai unity." 

AS I said a few moments age, the Premier left the 
country after dropping hla August 9th block-buster. And 
after some weeks, when he arrived In England, we noticed In 
the press that soon after he was In that country he was is. 
Session with Major Connie Smythe, who later returned to 
this oountry to startle us with his charges, without proof, 
that our battle lines were being reinforced with what was 
described as "green troops". The Premier oaae book shortly 
afterwards and told a press conference that while he had 
not read Ur. Snythe's charges he nevertheless felt no doubt 
that they were quite true. Colonel Aalsten, then Minister 
of National Defence, went to JCurepe to track down the 

. 1074 - 3-13-45 

Mr. IteoLMd. 

anyttie oharges, and f*aaa tiiem absoluMly b«s«l«s». 

kit. UHEW: Mr. Speaker, I de not intend to pay 
the sllghteat attention, -- on the point ot -privilege, •• 
to the ebeolutely unreliable leader of the Coaauniat Qroup. 
But I do retient thle atateaent about one ef the f Ineat 
aaldlera and beat apertaaen that 1 know. Colonel iiilatea 
did not aay that Major 3n>ythe'a statestenta weie untrue. 
They wexe entirely true as prevea oy Coxouei iAiaton'a 
later atateaenta and roaignatlon. 

MB. :>FBAJSB: We are very pleased to have ao aany 
viaitora in tne gaixery out there oust be no applause, 
tfe do not want to clear the gallery. 

MR. McLEOD: 1 never have been oald so nuob 
attention by a man who does not puy any attenti^a te ae. 

The Prexoier aaya that Uolenel lielaton did not 

nake the atateaent which I have attributed te hia. I 

have here a o lipping from the Preioier'a own ergan, an 

organ of the aoat obaourantiat leaninga, ef October 3rd. 

Colonel Balaton was asked thia queatlon; 

"Did you read Connie Soy the 'a statement 
on Inaafficiently trained reinf orcoQenta?** 

Colonel aalaton said he had. "He is oollectlng 
all the information he can. *The ayatem ia now itdequate 
if carried out,' Colonel lislaton aaid in diaouaaing 
reinf orcementa training. *All oaaeo ooaplained of are 
being fully InTeatigated, but 1 feel they are the excep- 
tion. If there haa been a alip it will be oured. Of 
course, it muat be reaeabered that tne laat unit reoelTlng 
reinforcement a ia never ooapletely aatiafied with the 
proTloua training. That holda good all along the line 
te regiaenta in the line.*** 





- 1076 - 3-15-45 

kr. kucLaod. 

Th«t dooa uot look like oorroberatlon of tb« 
dnyth* ohttrges. l think not. 

UH» DiOEW: Ur. 3po«kBr, X an only rising on tb« 
question ef privilege to keep the record straight. The 
Hon. member (Ur. IteoLeod) has said that Colenel itelstea 
said thMt Uajor Saythe's statements were not true, vhlla 
he has said nothing of the kind* 

UR. MaoI£OD: I have read Colonel Asl8ton*s state- 
awnt. Now, I hope the Premier will leave mm alone. 

What followed thereafter froa Smyths *s statenenta 
is still fresh In our minds. It launched the laost slan- 
derous and morale deutreylng campaign In the history of 
this country, with the man who built the Canadian anqr 
being subjected to vl 1 If Icatlon and plllary by a group af 
Tory politicians headed by the Leader of the Pregresslva- 
Conservutive i^rty, Joan uraci^eu, — Vlr. mMC&eu who has 
not had the coura^;e to seek a seat in the Federal House, 
entered the fray and descended to an all-time low, charging 
thut CanMdian uolaiers naa tnrown away tneir rifles, a charge 
proved to be wholly false by the Defence Authorities. 

Let it be said that that story was given to the MaVio*vaV 


Leaoer of the - Q wttiJta O p yi % iB a, and to his creait let it 

ba said that he refused to use It. 

Mow, I would like to repeat soae wor^n uax! in this H<m»e l»flt yeart 

"Those who deliberately set out to underaiaa 
public confidence in this critical hour 
by spreading the corrosive and deadly 
palson of distruat, envy, hatred and oalioe 
for the one purpose of advancing their 
own selfish Interests, deserve only the 
loathing and contempt of all decent people 
who Relieve we really are fighting as a 
nation to presefve freedom, honour, Justice 
and truth." 

Thase are the words of the Priaa minister of Ontaxla 


Ur. ItooUod. 

directed nBetiti t the Hon. leader of the Opposition l«st 

"^tn VMtr« nrt ^»«t t><in, k«t ^ew art ♦?«* t»4*u »l "Hit T«rt '^•^u . 
year. nw i ^f eaey wf »»<te ki>e»| »li>y a»i tfcoe »e * >' 

day uf < iie oii<j«ft B pB it » t> >i fntfi and I say they aigbt 

well beoooa the political epitaph of the Honourable, th* 

Premier y an4 V«%i v\»\tona^ \t44tt«. 

i he tti^ fc eoKe e f A» »ii* >«»4 t ii* T e»teei wiie Iia4 
t h e unmi t lRe ee d g .eli »e tto e ine »eM4 fl ati U ea a f >a> ii e a i 
6e luiitl l l al B ti e u, » lte Hiat e t ep e r w > r > n >e ) e ea ^h e il» %fa 
OF ey e A e o t t e ai. 

Now, the absurd aspect of all this is that tha 

Tories, «he sought to destroy Geaexax Mcimugnten, had the 

unoltlgated gall to aoggest the recall of Colonel iiilston. 

Has the Premier forgotten the serious charges he made 

against Colonel tialstan at the time of Uong JLong? If 

•a, let me remind him of what he uaid. He chargea Colonel 

Halsten had sent green end untrained troops to Hoog Kang* 

la that not so? It seems most extraordinary that you 

should want Colonel Hslsten back as Minister of K«tloiial 

Defence. Mr. Bracken spoke on this question only a few 

days ago. I quote from the Toronto ;itar of March the 3rd. 

kr. Bracken recalled th^t Oeneral Uclteughton had aucoeoded 

as Defence ianlster Hon. J. L. Halston, "whosa only offanoa 

waa he asked that trained reinforceiaents be sent froa th« 

only available aouroa, Mr. King's home draft ansy.* Mr* 

Bracken said the gavernment had uaed aecuw^j regulations 

twice before. 

**At the beginning of the war whan troapa 
went aver seas without proper aquipoent 
the gaTarnment refused ta permit the facta 
t< be rarealed. The reaaan far that 
i«cur:ty w^is not the welfare of our traapa 
>ut protection of the gavernoMnt that had 
iuigled." "The same was true of the 
eKi>adltion ta Hang Kong. In tint expedition 



■rif— "-S-l9«-*S,t 

I '«<■? »- * f i Kt » rt »%a y mu 

MfjT l t*- 


a J 


- 1076 •- 3-15-45 

Mr. kteoU»4. 

*mon w<ir« Q«nt to flgbt • Tloioua 
and crafty anaaj vlthout •▼•& thalr 
baalo training oomplatad. Tha gavarn- 
utant blaokad tha facta. And tha only 
raaaan tbat thay did aa aau tu hlda 
thair fallura, thalr inaff Icianey, thalr 
mlahandling af an axpadition that OMt 
•a uaarly." 


CC-1 , .Q,. . S-18-4S 

T«t In th« llsbt of all that, Mr. ap«ak«r, tb« 
yregresalTe Con8«rTatlT« Party vsnts to brlnii? Oolocal 
Raiaton b«elc as Miniater of taiio&al Mfenoa. 

X repeat that the Ontario Prlae Minister aaa 
the father of the relnforaanants * erlsla, acd no blood 
teat la required to prove patoruity. At xaasi tbe Oloba 
and Mall glTea bin full eredlt for doing tbe Job. 

After the Orey North by-eleetlon, vhlch the 

frealar of this province aia not enter oy the aay, neither 

be nor Connie 3mythe, the Globe and Mall gava the Premier 

full credit for doing the .lob. Ifter the election «aa 

orer the Globe and Mall earned tna following editorial, 

and In the lending poaltlon. It «aa haaded, "Praaiar 

Drev'a Contribution,* and said: 

*It la not always glren to thoaa 
■an who fight for grfat eauaes to ba^a 
their judgments and their aotlona 
Tlndlcated by the prograaa of avanta 
and upheld by public opinion. Of tan 
tlaas when the TlBdl cation eosaa thoaa 
who carried aoat of the burden In tba 
struggle are unapplaudad, tHHr 
labour and oounaal forgotten baaauaa 
they did not happen to be marching 
In the forefront of the victory parade.* 

It la not strange, Mr. ^aakar, that i^e wus not 
iB the victory parade beaauaa you cannot get Into the Tlctory 
parade unless you ere In the battle; you are not entitled to. 

In the sajna editorial in the Globe, and the other 

George must bare had a hand In thla, I think, the Oloba 

becomea absolutely maudlin In Ita aollcltude for Its hero. 

It says: 

"Ontarlo*8 ptamler will know tbe 
warmth of the inner glow wbleb brings 
abundant satisfaction tp those wh« 
have seen themselves Justified, fbat 
satisfaction maana muab more than the 
applauae of the crowd. 

*fiad he sougnt applause Premlar Oram 

CC2 . 1077 - 5-13-46 

Mr. ItooUod 

oould hare pursued Itin Or«7 Sorth. 
That h« did not it T—»on •nou^ 
for r«««lling hl« ttn#<))tAll«^ odntri- 
bution to the Tiotory, on« vhleb 
Fill stand always as a Bsjor 
sarrloa to tha CanaAlsa psepls 
In tha far froa ooaplstad rsseri 
of one of tbla nation's outstand- 
ing publia Ban.* 

All I can say to that, Mr. Spaakar, Is to rapaat 
vbat the Premlar hlnaelf said the other day: *0 tampors, 
moras,** — Oh Lord, Oh Montreall 

Prom time to time tha Pramlsr hss asds othsr rsln 
efforts to obscure his fsliures by raising falsa lasuas. 
Back In January he took to the alrsayesand ehargsd that 
Ottawa was IntarTanlng In the educational ayataa of Ontario, 
a charge which was categorically denied by the Mlnlstsr of 
National Health as well ss by the General Mansgsr of tha 
Wartime Information Board, and so far as I know, after Mr. 
Claxton*s rejoinder and Mr. Dunean's rajomdar, the Premlar 
nerar returned to the attack. But later ha oaaa back on 

the air, not to discuss the failures of hla own adalnlatra- 
tlon, but to complain that Doctor Frlgon had prevented hla 
from telling the people of Ontario of the fine hospltsl 
treatment our Canadian forces were receiving oTcrssss. Maw 
If eyerybody that goes overseas la going to reserve the 
right of free acoaas to the airwaves on his return to theaa 
ahoras to tall the people of this province what la obvious, 
there will simply be no end to this thing because any 
politician can ask to make a apaaali ovar tha air to tall 
the people what thay already know. After Mr. Frlgoo had 
issued a statement defending his position thara «aa no ra- 
Joinder from the Premier, so fsr ss my maaory sarves. 

I somatlmaa tMlnk that the Premier, who la auppoaad 
to ba an export in weapons, doea not know tha dlffaroaao 


CC3 . 1078 - 5-1S-48 


b«t«e«n a harpoon and a boaa«raa«» baoauaa aTarjr harpoon 
that ha haa throws in tha dlraetlon of Ottawa baa uaually 
vhlrlad baok and hit hia right on tha ehia. 

MR. MDBFHY: Ha la atlll ataodlag up. 

■I. MaaLBOD: fia la atlll atanding up but that 
juat ahowa ho* hard ha la to knock down. 

In an attanpt to bolatar hi a fallan fortuaaa tha 
Premier in latter daya is using another daviee, tha Bad 
bogay. It la pretty veil noth eaten nov, but a daaparata 
polltlelan will try alaost anything as a last resort. Of 
course, it was not new with the Premier. Be had used it 
quite aztenairely baek in tha 30*8 when ha returned to Canada 
from Russia and published a series of articles in Tha Toronto 
Saturday Kight and in the Tory Toronto Telegram. In paaaing 
it might be said that Hitler's decision to make war on Raaala 
may have resulted from his reading those articles. 

According to the Toronto Daily Star of October 11 » 

1939, the Premier is quoted as follows: 

*Colonel Drew suggested that if 
the German people rid themselves of 
Hitler there is no reason why they should 
cot baooma. our allies in ridding 
Europe and ultimately ridding tha 
world of the loathsome poison of 
Russian communism.* 

I do not think that was a very intelligent remark 
to make at that time. 

On January ISth last, in an address at the annual 
banquet of the Ontario Tory party, the Premier aaid: 

"The time he a ooaa to do away 

with the pretence that these oomun- 

Ists represent anything but a sub- 

▼ersive elamant in the cooaunlty. 

It is time this was aaid from the 

pubilo platform on every poaaible occaaion.* 

Aoeording to the Globe, this statement waa greeted 

with prolonged applause. I oaa only say, Mr. Speaker, that 

CC4 . j^o?9 - »-l3-4e 

the Torl«s haT« b*«n known to applaud r«tb«r atraac* thlnga. 
I will give a aaapla. 

liolf in 1994 a Mn by the naaa of ltocl«trata S.A. 

Jonaa of Brantford addrassad an ft^lra Club Baatlag Ir 

Toronto. I an raady to atand oorraetad but I do rot think 

thara ara aany aambara of tba party oppoalta In tba teplra 

Club. As I look OYar its rostar It looka Ilka a blua book 

of Toryism to me. This Is what tha aaglatrata aald In hla 

apeaoh to the Itaplra Club: 

*Faaala«i la avaaplng luropa 
baeause Its natlona ara near enough 
to aea the advantages of Italy *a 
■ystein. Growing faselst ■ore' 
ments existed In not leas than 
twelTe other countries, Inoludlng 
Bngland, whioh has six different 
fascist organizational Lord 
Rothermere being the lataat not- 
able conrert.* 

Then listen to thla: 

*If there waa a Una 
In the fundamental principles of 
fascism opposed In the slightest 
degree td the best Idaala of tha 
British Bmplre I would not even 
be dlspusslng the natter. Should 
Canada at any time in the future In 
Its wladom adopt faaelaa In whole or 
In part It la Indeed gratifying to 
know that the old flag would at 111 
be oura and that the aong of empire, 
God Sare the King, would atlil ba 
that of Canada.* 

And according to tha Toluna of apeeehea publlabad 
by the Kmplre Club, that atatament waa graatad with hearty 
applauaa . 

I pointed out last saaaloa that the Red Bo^y had 
bean used by aona strange people. I referred to an article 
In Liberty aagaslna by a well known Aaarlean flgura who 
wrote: *CoanunlaB la knocking at our gates. Be cannot 
afford to let It in. la muat keep the workera* alnda 
clean and unapolled. Be must aava thaa froa Bad ruaaa." 

CC8 . ,OeO - 8-15-46 


Who vrote that? II vas Al CapoiM. 

Within tha past few aontha tti«r« arc aoaa otbar 
paople «bo huva baan uaing ttm naa Bad bogay. Itot long 
ago the hOD. BCMbar for 3t. Darld (Mr. Dannlson) «ant to 
oourt to absolva hiasalf of Had ohargaa ana ii mix ba 
raaallad that ha raoalTad a eartlfioata of polltlaal 
▼irglnlty and ona dollar and ona eant* 

A fa« days aftervarda tha paopla of tha oiiy of 
Toronto want to the polls and 42,000 people voted for 
Controller Smith, vhloh is a pretty good algn that thla 
Red buslneaa Is wearing pretty thin. 

MR. DINNI30N: Mr. Smith did not run under that 

MR. MaoLEOD: No, but Mr. Sanderson did, and 
the Globe and Mall did and the Telegram did. 

MR. DINNI30N: Mr. Speaker, I stopped Mr. 
Sanderson despite the insults of tne hou. Hiomber for 
St. Andrew. 

MR. MacLSOD: I will dispose of this question, 

Mr. Speaker, by quoting somsthlng that will not be n*w to 

•oa« hon. members of the House, a statement issued a faw 

yeara back by J. B. Priestley, the famous Brltlah author 

and radio commentator. Ba aald: 

"For twenty years this triok 
has been suooessfully worked on ua. 
First you paint a dreadful picture 
of the *Rad8'. Than you have only 
to about *Tha Rada* to put an and to 
any policy that might make your gang 
unooofortabla. With the reault that 
tha blggaat political orooka In 
Suropa have bean buay proteating ua 
all against the 'Rada* for yeara nov. 
Nearly eyery auooaasful mora haa baan 
blocked by this *Rad* algnal. But 
you cannot fool all the people all 
the tlBa. Bzoapt among atuplda tha 
trick la played out. Moat paopla 



now would llk« to ••• d«Mnt and •ueecssful 
•otlon takttn for lis own sak* and Mvar Bind 
tha ooiourad polltleal labala. Tba p«opl« 
ara rapidly baoaalng raallatla in thalr out- 
look. Thla la wall, baasuaa tba can« that 
•Tarywhara wlabaa to fool tba paopla baa 
alwaya baan raallatla. Thay aanufaotura laganda, 
but thay do not ballava tbaa.* 

Th«n last of all, thla llttla blti 

"3oana: an antbualaatlo London Labour aaatlng. 
Star of tba aTanlng: Tba Rlsbt Uo».Barbart Morrlaoa,! 

*Saalou8 obalraan, working up tba baat: *lho got ua 
to *go to It* aftar Dunkirk?* Audlanaa rotfra: 


•Who saTad London from burning In UO-'*!?* 


•ibo gava ua our Indoor ahaltars?* "Morrlaont* 

*Who atartad London *a Orean Bait? Who gara ua 
wooda and flalda and fraah air?* Llttla 
fallow nlpa In qulek: "Oodt* 

Audlanoa (rlgbtaoualy indignant): "Tbrow bla 
our — tba dirty Coiaaunlat!* 

If the Premiar or anyona alsa in thla Bouaa thinka 
thay can bamboozia the people by ualng the Rad bogay, thay 
are due for a ruda awakening, baoauaa It la atlll true that 
you can fool soma of the people all the tiata and all tba 
paopla aome of the tiae but you caa't fool all tba paopla 
all the time. There has bean aoma controveray whatbar Lincoln 
or Bamun originated that, but whoever It waa it is atlll true. 

The GoTernaant now faaaa a test In thla Laglalatura. 
It is called upon to give an account of Ita atavardablp. ffa 
hara heard the indictment by the Leader of the Oppoattlnn^ e^r* 
tending orer several nours, and also Ua& i&4lctaaat by toa 
Leader of the Liberal Party. I have little to add azcapt to 
refer briefly to the promlaaa nada by the Pramler al<diteen montha 
ago,wblob 80 far he has not dealt with in tnis House, naaaly: 

Medical, dental and otbar health 
protection for all; 

Publio worka to oraata postvar •aployaaBt; 

Batabllahaant of an Ontario Houalng 

- laoi - 


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Xi/teB900i;8 bus ^ae^si) 968 oi eaii> 
feaijB laven bn© oaise flwo e* 
elqpeq edT *&l9^Bi Xsoi 

*Bd* anas ®rf* »et;a©0cf ,IIew el ei 

eerl aXqoeq eri-J loot oJ aeiieJiw '^^ 

•,m»aj avaiXed ■" 

:Jid sXJJiX «trfJ ,Xxa lo 

.S«iJ^»®* luorfflJ noSaoJ oi^tcstaurfl-fl* qb :e 
l.aoBi-noM d^nedieH.coH *d8X*I e ^v© ad* lo 

^fi ^08 oril* :tB»d 9rf* iTi; snit^'io?; .r.sail&dt eiioX»*3f* 
:«il8oi eofleiJbiiA J * Ji o* oa' o^ 

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0? cfcenxQ feljfi oi Bit-it i BVBf. I .^^is^ lEtetii io lebaeJ 

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rftXserf tsdio has iBiaeb ,XboX66I( 

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;3ne.n\ t aaiow otidifl 



0C7 - 1088 - 3-15-46 


Oonplata r^Tlalon of tha •dueatioruil 
■y«t«m ; 

R«BOYai or iijCTO trom poiitios, iowr 
rat«s tod rviral pover •iitnalona; 

Land r«olaaatloa In fa^ourabl* trvas; 

Lovar g*n«ral taxaa, allalnatlon of 
duplloata aarvloaa; 

A mora affielant elTll ■•rrloa ayataa; 

laaura adaquate auppliaa ofallk, fual 
othar naoaaaltlaai 

Baplo/aant priority for Tatarana — 
man and woman; 

and, of eoursa, tba flnaat labour lava in tba world. 

Wa would lika to haar aonathlng about, thase things, 

but thara baa baan no anawer to any of tbasa quastioaa ralaad 

by tha Laadar of tba Opposition. It la unnaoasaary to add 

to bis Indiotmant of tba 22 pointa axcapt for this briaf 

poataoript basad upon tba Impraaaiona of a Toronto Jouroallat, 

who, aftar attandlng tbe aaaaion whan tbia dabata opanad, 

wrota the following: 

*Wa noticed that st.veral aebool 
oblldran ware obsarTlng tha prooaadlngs 
from the vial tors' gallary under tha 
watehful eye of their teacher. k 
careful woman this teooher. 3ha 
listened in grim silenos as the Toxy 
speakers lauded the ^program' of 
taalr party, but at a certain 
point gathered her brood together 
and ushered then out of the gallery. 
'Children are ao impreasi enable, * aha 
Is reported to have told the elerator 
man. 'Anything horrible they pick 
up now la apt to diatort their point 
of view for years to o< 

'Miss Fotbaringay, ' one of her 
young pupils asked, **what did the 
man mean whan be said the Tories bed 
fulfilled their 88 point platform?* 

'Hush, deer,' answered Miss 
Fotharingay, *Tou are a little too 
old to be interested in fairy talaa.** 

Tha Laadar of tha Oppoaltlon haa moved an 

iiMndmont to tha main motion, and wa have a further amand* 

ment by tha Liberal laadar. Tha pointa eontalnad in tha 

amendment moved by the L«ad«r of the Oppoaltlon are worth 

repeating. Hia amendment reads: 

o , baa 

^8J mr 



CC8 . X068 - > 13-45 

Mr. MioUed 

*(1) that ttw attltud* of tb« 
OoT«rnia«nt of Ontario tovarda tha 
DoBlnioD and othar provlncaa haa 
not aaalatad In eraatlng conditions 
of national unity; 

*(S) that aftar aora than 18 
■onths In offloa tha Oorarmant hava 
fallad to Implanant thalr proalaaa 
vlth raapaet to aduoatlon, haalth 
aarvlcaa and othar Important aattara} 

*(3) that tha GoTernnant hava 
fallad to foracast laglslatlon that 
would aaaure adaquata prloaa for fars 
produota and security of farm tanura 
In the po8t-«ar yeara; 

*(4) that the OoTernmant hara 
failed to raaognlza tha UaMdlata 
need for laglalatlon that would prc^ 
Tide union security and other eol- 
lectlTe bargaining rights for labour 
In the post-war years; 

"(6) that the GoTernaant hara 
fallad to aoeept their own raapon- 
alblllty for planning and organizing 
the resources of Ontario to guarantaa 
productive entployaent In the poat-* 
war years for men and wonan now In 
unlfoxv and for those now engagaA 
In war induatrles.* 

Tha Leader of the Liberal group haa Bored a aub- 
■aandmant which deals first with the OowarziBant'a prograata 
of rellgloua education In tha achoola and aaeondly eondaana 
the Goyerniaant*s Ill-considered encouragaisant of larg*- 
acale immigration. I want to aay just a word or two on 
tha firat of these two points baoauae I, In eoaaion with 
othar hon. members of the House, hare been recalTlug during 
tha past weak or so represantatlona from the different 
aaatlona of tha raligioua aoiBunltiaa in Ontario, And I 
think it Is naaasaax7 for every hon. mambar of the ttouae» 
In so far as It la poaalbla, to atata exactly vbat his 
poaltion la on this question. 

Aa I undaratand this subamendment» and aa I trl«4 
to follow the Leader of tha Liberal party, no one la auf- 
geatlng that the religious ezerolsea which for years 

CC9 - 1064 - 3^13-48 


have be«n a part of our publlo sebool ayataa abouli b% 
abandonad. No ona for a aoaant «oul4 propoaa that, aoj 
more than any hoh. mambar of thla Laglalatura vouid pro- 
pose that tha rellgloua ezarolaas with ahlah *a opan our 
prooaadlnga In thla abamber ahould ba abaadonad. Thay 
are azarciaea of a sort that every hon. aaabar of thla 
House, whether ha ba Oathollc, Protestant or Javlah, caa 
go through without feeling the all^test aabarraaaaant 
or feeling that hla conaolenea Is being Intarfered with 
In any way. 



• 1066 - 3-13-45. 

ICr« lUoLaod. 

But the foxiB of r«ll(3(loua education Introduead In 
the aohool currloulua by txila GoTerzuaent oeana a very Dig 
departure from what haa plated here down through the 
jreara. it la now no lon/vr a nuestlon of opening the 
achool period with an invocation or a uiDie reading; pro- 
▼lalon la made for rellgloua Inatruotlon In the aohoola. 
I have been through aone of tho texts, and thev ara very 
disturbing to ma. iTor instance, in one lezt i aaw a state- 
ment which saja that "Much will be left to the laaglnatlon 
of the people." !Iow, let us ret atralPcht on this, Vr, 
Speaker. Unfortunately, the ^rotcstor.t conununlty is rar 
from united; there are a great many denmalnatlonal dlf- 
ferencea and dlTisiona, euid anyone who doubta that would 
do well to look at the church page which appeara In the 
'Toronto Preaa** on Saturday, Just to see how many differ- 
ent denominations there are in this city of Toronto, and 
waat IS true here is also true of other cooBunitiea* 

Now, suppoae you hare a situation where the 
teacher of a given class of children belongs to, shall wm 
aay* the British-Israel Federation, with Ita own peculiar 
brand of theology, and it is left to the Imagination of 
that teacher, i^o belongs to that community, tn Interpret 
the text placed In her handa. There la abaoiuteiy no 
doubt in the world that her interpretation will do 
violence to what those children are taught in thalr own 
hoaea and tneir o«i cnurchea. It is not only a question 
of aingllng out that particular group. There arw fifty, 
aerenty-flTe or one hundred different brands of theology* 
and if you start teaoning tueology m tao scnoola you ar* 
aoeentuating rellgloua difftrenceSf and will create din- 

. 1096 - 9*1S«4S. 

unity anongat the ohlldran In our public •ehoola. I think 
the eenelble couree for this CoTemoent to hara puraoaA in 
thla natter waa to take thla Leglaxatuxe lato lie conri- 
denee when It felt that aoma ohvigaa ahould ba made In 
thaae rellgloua exerolaea and that a Select Cotmalttee of ttia 
Houaa ahould have bean appointed to confer wltn tae leadera 
of the different denomlnatlona, to work out the kind of 
rellgloua Inatruetlon which will be aoceytable to tha whole 
church and rellgloua oocmunity, and will not do violenoa to 
the oonaolencea of the minorltlea In thla oltj, who are, 
under preaent regulatlona, being aubjected to hunlllation 
by having to leave the olaaarooma when thla iziscruction 

Now, 1ST, Speaker, I share the opinlona which have 
been expreaaed about the apeecnea made by the hon. Friiaa 
Ulnlater during hla vlalt to England and the book whlah 
waa ao widely distributed, "Ontario, the Heart of tha !?ew 
World." 1 understand that thousanda, if not nuodxeda of 
thouaanda, of coplea of that have been dlatrlbuted, and I, 
for my part, cannot aee how anyone reading that part could 
atay out of thla country; they vould really want to cooo 
here in a hurry. 

And, as I read aome of thoae spaaobaa reT)ortad In 
the "London Daily i^jcpress", wnere ^:ie zxon. friao lixmster 
aaid, "Let theai all oooa,** I waa reminded of tha atateaent 
Bade a few weeka ago by a gentleman in Yancouver. the head 
of a new party, who aaid, "Let us double the popoj-ation, 
and you will cut the public debt and tazea In half; avary- 
body ahould be brou;^t into thla country, except tha 
Japaneae, until there are three hundred nixlion people in 
North merlca, and Canada and the United Stataa baeoaa a 

- 1087 - 3-15-45. 

single republio; all th« peoplt froo the Old Country ean 
oooM over on the first boat." 

MR. MITCHBLL P. MmORII (Klein): That Bust be the 

MR. MAOUOD: That would be Juat lovely — 

SOB HON. MBBBBB: "Sone boat."* 

MR. MaoLBOD: Yea, "aone boat"; that ia right. 

Well, Mr. Speaker, to oonolude, the hon. Leader of 

the Oppoaition (Mr. Jolllffe), in dealing, last year, with 

the queatlon of what conatituted a vote of no oonfidenoe 

in this House, a aid as foll(xa - and I am quoting frcB the 

record of this House: 

**I am authorized to state on behalf of the 
CCF meBi>ars that if, on any division in this House 
the Government fails to receive a majority, the 
reault will not, ao far aa we are ooncemed, con- 
atitute a vote of no confidence in the administration, 
unless it is so stated on our behalf prior to suo^ 
a division; that, so far as we are concerned, tha 
question ia not one of confidence or no oonfldence.* 

New, Mr. Speaker, in moving hia aasndmant now before 

tha House, the hon. Leader of the Oppoaition (Mr. Jolllffe) 

aald — and again I quote from hia apeeoh: 

"And now, at the outaet of thia Seaaion, with 
the end of the war drawing swiftly near, we find 
nothing in the Government 'a Legialativa programma 
to auggeat that it ia aerioualy prepared to deal 
with problema a poat-war crlaia will bring upon 
Ontario. 9e have no confidence in such a Government. 
We take our stand against the forces of reaetion 
represented by the Conservative Party." 

And the hon. Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Btpbum), 
if I remember correctly, took about the aama poaitiom. 

How, while I very much regret that theae words were not 
Incorporated in the amendment, I think we ean aaaums that tha 
two amandments are calculated to defeat the Covemmant. That, 
at least, is the view of the new Cnwnnwealth, the official 
organ of the CCF. In the issue of March lat, it said: 

- 1068 - 8-13-^. 

"CCf** to foro« ■howdovn «lt& Drtm, Jolliff* 
oballenigtt Dr«w OoTernnnnt, Uot«s want-of-oonfl- 
d«nc« ■— nd— nt . " 

"111* first op«n eta«ll«ngt to th« Dr«w Gorsm- 
■•at in tha 1946 Setaion of xh9 Ontario Laglalatura 
wma daliivrad laat va«k bj Tad Jolllffa. Laadar of 
tha OppoaltioQ. Spaaking in tha dabata on tha 
Spaaoh from the Throna, tha 007 laadar nored an 
aaandaant, ahleb waa a atrai^:t aotion of no eonfi- 
danoa in the Govemmant . ** 

Now, ur. spaaicar, with an amandnant and a aub-aaand- 

mant before this House, I am in no position, and oamot, 

under the rules of the House, more an amendment until the 

■ub-aoendment Is disposed of. anan rnia is doaa, aaa if 

the ciroumstanees ara sxieh as to permit it, we shall flK)Ta 

an amendment which will remoiw all aablgulty from thA first 

amendment one rod lo this ^iouse, for wa have no coal Ida naa 

in this GoTemment, absolutely none. 

Tor oy part, I can/describe thia GoTernment and its 

Leader as **a disaster looking for a place to happen." That 

Is my description. 

Now, let me say to the Opposition members, that wa 

are all called upon to make an important decision in tha 

next few daya, and that is a decision which stands far abora 

any differoices that we may have, and we havo dlfferar.eea, of 

course. There are tms, however, vnen lire, itself, orings 

us together, just aa a fire in a home can sometimes reconolla 

neighboura. But the thing we ha-ve to renentier is this, that 

the Tory Party is in power, - the Tory i'arty is m povax* 

▲nd this is the baaoiibead which thay intend to expand to a 

bridgehead, with Ottawa as their final objeotlTW. 

▲ few days a£0 ui, Noseworthy, u. : . P. for Soutb 

York, said, and I q:uote frca **Tha Toronto Daily Star"; 

"There is no end to whloh tha PrograsaiT*. 
ConsarTatiwai wandering Laadar — " 

And ha might have said, "Tha paragrinatlns apoatla of glooM," 

aa tha hon. Prima lllnistar referred to tha hon. maabar for B^sh^ 

- 1089 - S-13-45, 

(Mr. Nlzon) last year. *Lr. I«os«vorthy eo«i oa to sax: 

**Tbo ProgroaalTa-ConaervatlTaa* vandarlns 
Leader wll: not go to vin the next election. 
The Grey North by-alaotlon la indloatlTa of their 
plan of action." 

Nov, Ur. Speaker, I do not want to make anjtody aad, 
and I am not goln^; to nake you oad — 

UR. ARTHUR VILLIiUS (Ontario): Tou are too aodeat. 

UR. UaoUBOD: — but I ha»e hare a oopy of the 

*llaritiine Commonwealth**, the official organ of the CCF in 

the Uaritime Provinces. Thy thia had to oone froa ay part 

of the country, I don*t know, but this is vhat it said: 

"The election of Tory candidate Garfield Caaa, 
OTer Liberal UcNaughton, and CC^ Godfrey, in the 
Grey North by-election, cozaea as a resounding de- 
feat to Mackenzie King' a bxingling man-power policy** — 

I>eriod. I.'ow, listen: 

**Thi8 is of satisfaction to the CCF, which haa 
consistently criticized the Priaa Ulnlster's conduct 
of wixr, and called for conscription of wealth, along 
with men." 

Now, if I understand that correctly, (and I am not 
gifted in following all the little twistinga,) it saya that 
the election of Case and the defeat of UeHaughton, and, yaa, 
even the defeat of Godfrey, is of sat iaf act ion to the CCF, 
which haa consistently criticized the Prima Ulniater*a con- 
duct of the war, and ao forth and ao forth. 

fell, mayba the editor of that paper was up lata the 
night before. Frankly, I do not think my hon. friend frca 
Ontario (Ur. Willlama) ia happy that Caae waa elected; I 
know he is not. I do not think anybody olaa ia glad that ha 
waa elected. 1 am aura of it. It could not poail bly ba. 

Now, this is where I find it a little difficult to 
follow the worklnga of the mlnda over there. Two or thraa 
timea during thla Saaalon, when the fire waa direetad againat 

> 1090 - 3-13-4S. 

Mr. llAoL»o4. 

the Bourbons on the GoTomoant beucbea, aooo of th« bon. 
members over there, somehow or other, aanrnged to £et vq^ 
and make It appear that the hon. aeflft)«r for Sltfln (Mr. 
Hepburn) was the Prima Ulnlster of Ontario. And tba hon. 
■amber for St. David (Mr. Dennlson) started to raad aoa* 
clipping about what the glraffea got to eat baok In tb« 
thirties -- 

UR. OENNISON: Some people may bare forgottan that. 


iJB. UaoIXOD: Let us keep tbe reoord stralc^t. Dur- 
ing the years that the Liberal Party was tba GoTonuaant In 
tbe province of Ontario, there was no one In this provlnoa 
who outdid some things that that Government did. 

IttR. ROBERT H. CARLIK (Sudbury) : You are telling us? 

MR. MaolSOD: Uy hon. friend from Sudbury (Mr. Carlln) 
<— I don*t know what the hon. member was doing to liven 19 
the proceedings. 

MR. UlLLTMiS: It was getting very dry. 

MR. MacLXOD: The hon. aeniber from Sudbury (Mr. 
Carlln) spoke a couple of times since this Cession begtm. and 
I do not know whether there was sooe thing wrong wxth ma, out 
when he mentioned Klrkland Lake he always seeasd to throw a 
"dirty look" In my direction. Mow, T have known the hon. 
member for Sudbury (Mr. Carlln) Tor a long time, lie is not 
called upon to do this now. Surely the bon. member (Mr* 
Carlln) would not suggest that I, and those with vhom T am 
aaaociated, did not airport the Klrkland Lake miners in tbmt 
strike; surely you cannot suggest that you, yourself, did 
not come to na on several oooaslons and Invlta ma to go up 
there and speak at tba mass meeting; surely you would not 
deny that the paper of whlob I wm editor at tba tiaa raised 


- 1091 - 5-13-45. 


thouaands of dollars for that fund, sid that I, ajB9lf, 
■ad* a national tour of tnia countzy, raising aonay for 
the Kirkland Lake Strlka Dafenoa Fund. 

Then the hon. nenber for St. David (Ur. Denntaon) 
apoke the oiuor day aoout me Lokee&ora incident, vail, w^ 
goodneaa , unless ay namory is faulty, w had an avful lot 
to do with the Lakeshore CoEoolttae. It aaa my eollaagoa, 
Mr* A. E. Smith, the father of Controller Smith, of the 
City of Toronto, who went out and raised the money to pay 
for the defence of those men, and we rouhdly denounced the 
Government for Its attitude toward those people. 

MR. OSmiSON: liven the hon. msaber fros Slgin (Ur. 

MR. UaoLEOD: Yes, even the hon. Mober for Slgin 
(Ur. Hepburn), of course. 

iSR. JOSEPH B. SALSBSRG (St. Andrew): And howl 

UR. UacUEOD: But, lir. Speaker, let us hare a little 
luck. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Ur. Jolliffe), the 
other day, in his opening remarks, paid tribute to the 
gallant exploits of General UacArthur in the Philiplnes. 
Now, if you are goin^ to always be consistent, the proper 
HDBg Xbrhim to have said waa that General LSacAXthur ia 
making great progress as he moves toward the Japanese aain- 
land, but let it not be forgotten that the sane General 
UacArthur was tiie saoe man who used tear gaa a gainat the 
bonus i.xffchers in front of the White House in the thirties. 

And, to carry it a bit further, when you praise 
the statesmanship and the courage of Prims Minister 
Churchill, and you want to complete the piotxxre, some very 

iaaoa gn in 

o obam 


iB ^, 



.A .tJJ 


iTJc:; J3CA : iwoxo 

srf:t . f f.'i'^ i:X.!:r.T. .tM^ 


.M ,m 

rijiiiz,- ,ejixiiiVi^ 

'%^. f' 


-ro^G*«.!■ .no/' 

OBifi - 

Y10V eaoB ,a'n;3'oJtc 

F\ <^ .'» r 


. 1092 - v-*M-w 

Ur. Ilaeued. 

horah thing* might be aald about Ur, Cbureblll*a attltud* 
toward the British Union UoTanent in earlier days. But w 
do not do that. But I want to say that I think the hon. 
■ember for Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) would hare to "go sooa" to 
match the record of many other people whoa wa applaaA on 
the basis of the position thoy take tOHlay. 

So far as I n concerned, while, philosphically, 
and in the wider sonse, politically, there can be no oaet- 
ing point between myself md the hon. nsaber for Elgin, 
nevertheless I welcome the fact that the hon. manber for 
Elgin is taking his stand against the Tory GoTBrment in 
the province of Ontario. 

Now, in regard to the reference which the hon« 
Prime Idinistor made to the "Communist Pup", (and that 
must have made tho hon. member for Kent East (tir. Thonq>son) 
aquirm In his seat,) can anybody imagine a man who has such 
backward views toward trade unions, —and they are back- 
ward, I am sorry to say; they are paternalistic, — can any- 
body imagine a man so backward that he should be a "Comunist 
Pup"? And imagine anybody trying to pull a string at the 
hon. member for Grey South (Ur. Oliyer) ; you would really 
break your fingers, would you not? That would be a Tery 
hard Job. 

TIell, Ur. Speaker, the urtiole point is this: this 
country of ours has had some vary bitter ezperioncos. rre 
had them back in the hxingry thirties, as the hon. oaahar 
for Ontario (Mr. Williams) knows, when he was the Leader 
of the East York Vorkers* Aasooiation; we cortdnly had 
them under Right hon. Ur, Bennett, with hia self-deseribad 
"iron heal of ruthlesaness" — and Section 96; we had thaa 
at the tins of the Ottawa trek, when ten yaara ago on* 

- 1093 - 3-l»-48. 

L:r. liaeLeod. 

hundred lada ollDbed on top of box oars plaood at their dlff- 
poaal by the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian !;ational 
Hallways, and started to mow toward Ottawa, to ask for 
conunon, ordinary Justice. And «• rataaabar what happened to 
those boys on the 1st of Jxily, 1035, when they ware attaek- 
ed in the city of Reglna, and when ono doctor, Dr. UcLaan, 
a forrier Leader of the CCP, whom, I understand, is now out 
of the province, said that he remorad twenty-four bullet a 
from those boys that night. You know where we stood on 
that question. You know of the looderaUip ^ven to those 
boys ou that occasion by Jack King, a pilot officer, who 
lost his life in the war, by Arthur Ijvans, oiid by Uatt Shew, 
now serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force overseas. 

But ne do not need to stop at the events of tha 
'thirties. T sometimes think that the Tory : artv in Canada 
has tae coxxosal gall to attack the wor aasuniscration of 
this country, nhen we rocall the Ross Rifles of the lost 
war. T kr.avt soraetMing about tham, fccca'jno I uaed then, and 
carried then. Also, we know about paper al.cos, *...c 
blind horses and shady olections -- 

HON. aCORaS a. DHSW (prime Minister): Ur. Speaker, 
I sill have to take back what I said about not listening. 
Z was listening to the hon. member for Ballwoods (Ur« 
UaoLeod), and may I say that the speaker should ranodber 
that the Ross Rifle Company was fomad under the adalniat ra- 
tion of Six T7ilfrad Laurier and tba Liberal GoTsnnant. 

UR. LlaoLBOD: I do not core who formed it. I know 
that the Ross Rifle scandal was attributed to the Bordan 

VR, DSSIISON: Tliat was a ooalition goromaunt. 

- 1094 - 9-15-46 

Mr MAOUod 

MR. MaoLSOD: j^rma If it was « OOAlltion goftam^t, 
that does not altar tba Indlotiaaot a bit. not a oit. 

I aay that aa wa raoall ttaa war raoord of tba Tory 
Oorarnmant iu tba laat war, and tbaaffaot of tba Banoatt 
adaloistration, wa oan aajr tbat uodar tba aabaa of tboaa 
bittar yaara ara bot eoala of raaaabranoa. Tba paopla of 
tbia oouatry raaeabar tbat, and tba paopla of tbia ooujBtrf 
are not going to permit a return of tbat Iciad of goremawnt 
after this war is over. 

Suraly no wo rae fate oould befall tbia country than 
a return to tbat kind of reactionary rule. To avert aucb a 
dlaaater, tba Opposition aetnoers in tbis Legislature bare to 
bare tba courage to take tbat action wbiah will disrupt and 
daatroy the plan tbat the Tor lea bave for returning to 

Now, wbat happened here on Au^uat 4tb, 1943? In 
tbat election tba Tory Party polled 469,672 votes, a little 
orer 31 par cent; the CCF Party polled 416.620 votes, or a 
little lesa tbau 32 per cent., tbe i^ioerai Party polled 
409,307 votes, a little mora tban 31 per cent., and tben 
there ware amallar groups, maidng a total of 1,S1S.9S8 
votes, wnicn aaana tbat tne total votea againat toe Tory 
Party on Au^st 4th, 1^43. were 044,266, or over 64 per cent. 

Row, in tbia Legislature, the CDPosition aaftbara ara 
fifty- two. and tbe Oovernaeat aaaoara ara tairty- seven, an^ 
if tbia Cove moan t abould oa defeated whan tlUsa aMaadaanta 
ara put to a vote, then I aay tba honourable thing for thia 
Oovernaeat to do ia to resign .-is to r«aign. No alaotioo 
ia naoaasary; there ia a baaia, in thia lagialatora, for an 
alternetive governoant » and thia Parliaaant oan live out its 
full tern. 

-1095 - 9-13-45. 

Ur, UttoUod. 

Th« hon. Prima Ulnlat«r aado aoaa vary aloquant ra- 
nnrks about not ^ranting to ba foroad Into a proTlnoial alaa- 
tlon, ih9 other day, — no wartlaa alaatlon, — but hov 
doaa he square that with what John Bracken aald on tha Air* 
the other night? U% challangad the Federal CoTernaent, and 
deoanded that an \»laction ba held now, and aoouaed the 
Rlglit hon. Prloa Ulnlater of thia country of cowardice and 
lack of courage to go to the country. 

I want to say that I ao not iqpraaaad with the hon. 
irima Ulnlster'a strictures against another wartiaa election. 
If ha thought ha could carry thia pro^noa on what the hon. 
fflember fron Elgin (lir. Hepburn) haa properly called "a 
devil's brow of racial disunity,** he would not hesitate a 
moment to seek a dissolution of this House now. 

But I repeat that an elootion is quite unneoaaaary. 
It is tho duty of this i.agi8lature, in my opinion, to Infom 
Hia Honour that the GoTernment no longer enjoya its oonfidanoa, 
and recommends the fonaatlon of a new administration to senre 
out the life of this Parliament. 

Now, vuat. cuuxd such an alternate govemnant do? It 
could do all the things this Cover nnent haa refused to do. 

First of all, such a (^vernment would stand, first and 
foremost, on a policy of national unity for vxctury over the 
enemy; the aToidance of any action or policy that wduld arouse 
racial, religioua or sectional controToryay. 

(Page No. 1096 follows.) 


2* It would utillt* ttM full«it us« of tb« pc««rt of th« 
ProTinot. within the •xlstlng Conitltutlon, to pr«p«r« 
Ontario for full •mplofaaat aft«r tht war, aod tb« uttott 
oo-op«ration with tlia Ooainion D«parta«nt of ftaoooatruotioa 
in all its plana to aobiata tbia. 

3. It would astabliab a broad Ontario Baoonatruotion Co«aittaa, 
rapraaantativa of gorarnaant, aanagamaot and labor to diraet 
tba r«-ataploymant of vatarana and war workars, with powar to 
act toprerent any daolina of ioduatrial production aa war 
oontraota oaasa. 

4* Suoh goTarnnant oould apply tba 8-bour day, 5-day waak 
without raduotion of pay, to all induatry itnaediataly aftar ttaa 
war; a mandatory two-weak paid Taoation for all aftployaaa. 
6. It oould guarantee the aaoarity of tenure for Ontario fara 
faailiaa, through floor prioea, aubaidiaa and aaaiatanoa to 
oo-operatirea; a govaraoent plan to oback the growth of 
landlordiam and tenancy in Ontario agriculture. 
6* It could take iiaaediate action to enable the ootamenoeaant 
of large- acale public worka such aa the 3t. Lawrence iaaway, 
reforeatation, aohoola and boapitala, aomrminity centres and 
highwaya, aa war production deolinea. 

?• It oould aaauma reaponaibility for tba adoption now by thfa 
Lagialature of Ontario'a plan for poat-war' taxation rafora. to 
be propoaad to tba ooiaing Doninion-ProTinoial oonfenmoe. iuob 
a plan abould be baaed on the broad prinoipla that aocial 
lagialatlon such aa Faaily Allowanoaa muat ba Doaioion-wida la 
obaraoter to be effeotiTe, and the Prorinoa abould now prapara 
to ra-allocata certain taxing powera to aobiava tbia and. 
6. Tba Municipal Act and tba Aaaasaaant Act should ba oban<ad 
to encourage auaicipal poat-war planning and bouains projaota* 
The Province ahould aaaaiM all relief ooata now borne by tba 
Aanioipalitiaa and abould aet itaalf tba aia of raliaving tha 

e. V rfl .s 

aoiCi. :w aoIJaieqo-oo 


- 1 


mi o"' « i. 4 I 

ft^ B»i eintraee 

oiq ©a 

Ifl: 6©8 8tf o 

. tns air ■ rn-A? oj^ 

lbe^i.:e-':- fesseei; aaj riiia Jo; 

. 1097 - 8-19-46 

■nnioipaliti** of all tb« dir«ot oosts of •duoatloa withia 
tb« shortest p«xiod* 

9. Th« •stablishotot of an Ontario Houaioc Coaaiasloa by aa 
Ontario Housing Aot to orgaaia« a |praa% r«-hovsiae* sloa 
olsaraaoa and town planning prosra«ia, in oo-oparation with 
tha Dooinion, and to oo-ordioata tha aotivitias of tha 

10. Non-contributory old-aga panaiona at tha rata of f40 
Monthly . 

11. Ona hundrad par oant worlcman'a ooaponaation. 

1£. An Ontario Labour Balationa Aot to prorida union saourity 

and oollactlTa bargaining for all Ontario woricars. 

It* 7ull support to tha proposail Dominion Haalth Inauranoa 

sohaoa; the fraa hospitalisation of natarnity patianta and 

similar haalth reforas panding tha anaotoMnt of national 

haalth insuranca. 

14. The astablishoksnt of a Department of Youth and Raoraation 

to suparrlsa the welfare of young people, to provide 

physical fitness and reoreational faoilitias and to aaaiat 

▼ooational guilanoa. 

Therefore, I say that we hare a solemn duty, if wa 
oiaan waut has been aaid in all the apeeohaa aaift, and if tha 
aaandjiants now moved mean what thay say, and aay what they 
■aan, tha only honorable course is for us to defeat this 
Government ana aaauma reaponsioility for the affaire of 

Pa^ 1103 follows. 

nliiilv' -" 

aB \<S no Ice i 

avle , ^^ 
diiw aoiiBie 

edi to ee 

•: exld 
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ew ^ t . v.t 




-1103 - S-lS-45. 

RON. R. P. TZYIiH (Hiaiatcr of BeaitAj : ~ '- < r, 
aa the Uaabar of GoTenuaent ehargad with tha raaponalblllty 
for tha adalnlatration of tha Dapartmant of Haalth of thla 
ProYlnea, I rlaa to taka part in tha Dabata en toe sp«««ii 
from the Throne. In apaaklne to you as lilniater of Health, 
I wiah to deal with the remarka of tha Honourable Leader of 
the Oppoaltlon that are pertinent to health, to report ma 
progresa that has already been aohiaTad by the Dapartaent, 
and to outline our plana for the loBMdiate future. 

▲t one point in hia remoriLa, the Leaaer of tne Opposi- 
tion had thia to aay — and I quota: "I wish to aaka it per- 
fectly plain at the outset that It Is not belnf^ put forward in 
any partisan vay but as a constructive suggestioD which wa 
hope will be seriously considered." llr. Speaker, I wish to 
use those same words in regard to ny own eonmants. Tha prob- 
lama for the improvement of health oan only oe aoived by a 
rather complete understanding of the difficulties InTOlwad 
and the waya in which improvements can be suida. 

From the apeech of the Honourable Member for iiouth 
York, I do not believe tliat he appreoiatea the oo^plazlty of 
this problem. He challenges the Govemoent "to give tha 
aystem of socialized health services and its rlTal syataaa a 
fair trial" by setting up demonstration units in which there 
would be a prograaxBB of socialized health serrlees in one, an 
iBplamentation of the proposals m t^a Baagarty Report in 
another, and a continuation of ezlating aarvioea in a third. 
I presume that thla ohallencre has been DUt foxvard in gooA 
faith and for tne purpose or scientific ezperimant. There 
ara, however, a number of diff icultiea that must be taken In- 
to account in considering^ such a proposal. T wish to draw 
the attention of tne nouse to tnese oirf icuitx.ea, wnion are 
apparent to na aa Ulnlatar of Health for this Prorinea and 

- 1104 > 5-19-45. 

m» a ffladleal practitioner* 

I know of no one vlth any knowlodga of tba tubjaot ibo 
la satlafiad with haalth serTlcaa aa thay are at praaant , «ni« 
daflolanclaa of the presant systaa ara ao wall known ttvat 
further atudiy, In a defined area, would only be a waate of 
tlma. The propoaala of the Raasarty Re-nort ha>« aerely ooae 
forward frcm a coaoattee, viion now aeeca lo be In conaldar- 
abla doubt aa to whether or not Ita propoaala oould be applied 
to any area. 

The Leader of the Oppoaltlco aaka that "aoclallsed 
health aarvlcea" ba aet up In a aelacted area. While llaten- 
Ing to hla apaach, I TlaucLllzed aoclallzed health aarvicea aa 
a daflned entity. I am now Informed mat tnla term oovera 
the preliminary raoommendatlona of the Planning Cooaittee for 
Health Sarvlcea of the C.C.F. Party, contalnad in a book of 
aome 52 typewritten pagea. I find that, in tAe main, thla 
book la based upon the preliminary recooiaBndatlona of the 
Uedlcal Planning Coomlaalon of Great Britain, publlahad la 
1942, and the Report of Dr. Slgarlat of Johna Hopkins 
UniTaralty upon hla flndlnga In Soviet Ruaala. The Medical 
Planning Commlaalon waa not caaimittad to Its nronoaala, but 
waa prepared to re-examine tnem in uie lig&t or toe suoae- 
quent dlacusalon. The Conalaalon decided. In 1944, to brine 
Its work to an and without laaulncr a final report. Tbe Talue 
of Dr. Slgerlst*a obsarvatlona on the i>oviet ayatem. In ita 
application to Canada, can beat be ahown by the procedure In 
Saakatchewan. Dr. Sigeriat waa emnlored by the present 
C.C.F. Ooremaant in that ProTinoe to conauci a aurrey of 
health needs. He did not reooiBMnd the adoption of any de- 
fined 83rstem. The Saskatchewan Leslalatxire acted ui^on these 
recQHwndatlona by aoenaing Tna ioibiio uecath Act ana acdin^ 

. 1106 - ^13-45. 

Tb« Htalth Serrlees Act to th« Prorlnolal Statutes. This 

Aot proTldaa that a Planning Coiamlaalon undortaka: 

1. To datarmina tha ooat of proTldlD£ for baalth aarrlcaa 
vlth raapeot to which raoomaandatlona ara raoalvad by 
tba Minis tar, and raoomaind to tha Ulnlatar ways and 
■aans of finanolng thasa serrloaa; 

S. To work out In da tall tha naads of ona or oors baalth 
regions, to datarmina the health serTloas raqulrad to 
satisfy the needs of regions and tha ooat of suoh 
sarvloes; and 

9. To plan a scheme of ooopulsory health Insurance for tba 
population of one or more urban centres. 

In other words, Saskatchewan followed the lead gltwn 
by this admlniistration In this ProYlnca a year a^o. 

It should now be perfectly obrlous that, irrespectlTW 
of what systens may be In operation elsewhere, we cannot trans- 
plant those systems In toto to this Country or to this Prow- 
Ince. Our requirements demand that wa take the beat prinalples 
accepted elsewhere and apply them to our irobleiM bare. That 
has been the policy of this administration. 

A complete health programme Includaa these tbra« main 
divisions: « 

(1) Public Health; 

(2) :.:edical Care; and 

(3) Cash Indensiity. 

We have bean concerned with all thraa of thasa mala 
divisions, la have sought, through fact-finding and tha oon- 
atructlon of individual *blts and plaoea", to sat up that 
portion of a conQ)lete programma now possible and to determino 
the next steps, fe ara now in a poaitlon to place before tiM 
people of this ProTlnoe a blueprint of our preaant sarrloaa 
and. a chart of the course that wa intend to follow. 

The term "Public Health" la ona which danotas a »Tf' 
ice for the prevention of lllneaa and the aafe-guar4ing of 
good health. This service requires poaitlTa action in tho 
fields of hygiene and prevent Iva madiolna, by established 


- 1106 - 8-13-46. 

•gvncloa of goTtmxQeat and paid for by taxation. TlM Statute 
eootaining our authority to do this la Tha Publla Haalth let 
of this ProTlnoa. Our Public Health lot had its origin aoaa 
six years after Confedoration. kaay wnwndiaeDta am^9 eiaoa 
been added to It. Ita present form, therefore, might be ooi^ 
aldered to be oumberaome, but Ita prlnolplea are accepted 
here, aa aimilar neaaurea are accepted elaevhere — even la 
8aakatchevan--a8 the rery oorneratone upon mhioh to build a 
good atate of health. The Prorlnclal Department of Health 
admlniatera thla Act In oo-operatlon with the Health Depart- 
ments of the Uunlolpalltiea. 

The preaent Ulnlatry of thia Prorlnce has undertaken 
to Ij^prove the public health prograjmae, in rat ion, in 
service, and in the method of financing ita coat. An adequate 
public health prograana damanda l^jroTed admlnlatratlon in the 
local area. Thia Is being aceoBpiiahed by townships &: d srji'.l 
urban centres combining into County Health Unite. Plans hare 
been consisted for the establlahment of aooa TO units on thla 
baala. These, together witn an adequate full-tioe aemce m 
the larger urban muni cl pa 11 tie a, will provide the ooi^>lete 
baais administration. 

The financing ol puoiic health eerricea la by taxation. 
These funda are obtained in the local area from real aetata and 
by the Provincial Covemment from Conaolidated Rereoae. Tba 
basic service, auoh aa 1 have Aeacrlbed, eosta 4 total aaooat 
of $1.00 to $1.25 per individual per year. Thia oovemment is 
aaaistm^ the eatabllahment of the County Haalth Unite by paying 
fifty per cent, of thia coat. In tenaa of tha mill rate, I 
vould like to point out that thia aervioa can be brou^t %> m 
county at a fraction of one mill. The uaual rate la beti 
one -half and tnree-quartera of a mill. 

• HOT • 9-19-46. 

The public h«^th prograoM In thim ProTlno« proridts 
a looal serTlo* vhlah may b« defined onder fl^ h««din^: 
!• The adTano«iBBat or public health aduoatlon; 
2. The preTeotlon of acuta and chronic coaaunl cable dlseaaea; 

3. The control of aanltatlon, particularly in respect to 
aewage diaposal and a pure water supply, and the control 
of hazards in the production and handling of food; 

4. The conduct of a prograouM of maternal axad infant hygiene, 
in co-operation with the family medical adTiser; and, 

5. The ministration of a progranae for school children. la 
this connection, I would like to point out the prineipla 
for dealinG with special groups within the larger group 
of the cocanunity. Our children represent our most price- 
less natural resource. In the ire-school period, they 
will recelre the mazinxia anount of attention and serrice 
that it is possible to render in their homaa. At tha 
school-age period, they hare left their hosMs and gather- 
ed together with others in a new enrironment for a major 
portion of their time. This grouping is i^>ortant for 
two reasons: 

(1) Certain hazards, not encountered in the hoaa, can on— 
into being in such groups; and, (2) their very presence as 
a group makea it possible to bring to them eapeeially the 
maximum preventative services that oadical science has 
made possible. 

The Leader of the Oppoaition chidad the ooremmant for 
not mentioning anything about children in the health progr«BM, 
whereas in reality there ia a definite prograDne for them aa 
part of the caamunity health aervice. Demonstrations of this 
programna have been in existance for some time. 

The previous administration established prograanaa for 
school children in some of our Counties. These prograasaa, 
though limited to one aeetion of the population, hav» made it 
poaaible to give the general population a better undarstandlnc 
of what is specifically asant. The school child progra— is» 
therefore, incorporated tnto the basic ccauminlty aarvloa in the 
new Health Units. In this connaation, the County of Oxford ahould 
be oomaanded, together with other County Counoils, loaan*a 
Institutes, and the Federation of Agriculture for their cloaa 
co-operation witn the Oepartoant of Health. 

. 1108 - 8-13-45. 

To eooduet an •rf«otlT« bMie prograie, 4 ;a^^-iia» 
■taff la required. Suoh a ataff aonpriaea aadioal ofrioars 
of baalth, public health nuraea, aanltary inapeetora, and 
payohologlcal warkera» together with the neoeaaarr of flea 
peraonnel. It la juat aa laportant to haftt thla teehiiie«l 
ataff trained in the apeoialty of poblla haalth aa it la la 
any other apeoialty of medical praotloe. Satlafaatory ar- 
rungeoente have been made for such training and to glT* 
financial aaalatance in thla regard. 

In addition, tha baaio unit will require theaerTloaa 
of a dentiat, with poat-graduate training in the preTentative 
field. At the preaent time* plana are under « ay whereby it la 
hoped that the Departiaent, in co-operation with tha authori- 
tiea of dentiatry in this Province, may be able to work out 
the requlrementa in thia field and to proTide the neoeaaary 
peraonnel. The aervlcea of auch a dent let in the prewenta- 
tive field are confined to the prograoaa of pre-aehool and 
achool child hygiene. 

In order to render the m* rl""*p aaalatance to the loe«l 
unit plana have been made for the decentralization of tha 
Provincial aervioe. The DlYlaiona of the Departiaent of Haalth 
that hare a pertinent place in thla progranBa are: ipldaailol- 
ogy; Uaternal and Infant Hygiene and Public Health Nuralng; 
Laboratoriea; Sanitary Snglnearlng; Mental Byglena; 
Tuberculoaia Control; Venereal Dlaeaae Control; and Induatrlal 

Since the incaption of tha Ulnlatry of Haalth In thia 
Province in 192S, all theae Divialona hai« aada notable eon- 
tributiona to their raapeotiva fielda. In Ontario, there has 
been a definite and oontinuod iaproTeaient In the oaternal 
Mortality rate. In 1943, the year for whlah tha laat aoaplete 

. no. . s-i*-"- 

figurss are aTftiiable, Ostario's rate was tha lovaat la thm 
Dominion. The Dataraal death rate par 1,000 lira blrtba for 
Canada was S.8, Ontario's rate vaa 2.S. The death rataa of 
onildran unaar one year, per 1,000 llTe blrthe, for t&e year 
1943, for Canada aa a whole, waa 54, for Ontario, 4£« In 
104S, maaalaa held flrat place as the moat Tararalaat acute 
coBununicabie aiaeaae. The higneat death rata waa 3«4 per 
hundred thouaand population In one of the Frovlneea; Ontario 
had the lowest fieure, 0.6. The flexures for diphtheria show 
that tao higheat deaui rate m any rroTlnce In Canada waa 9.2; 
the lowent rate waa in Ontario, 0.2. In the chronic dleeeaea, 
the bluest death rate for tuberculoala In Canada In 1943 wan 
reported aa 62.3 per 100,000 population, wixa untario .'^Tins 
the lowest death rate of 28.6. k oo^plete atateaent of th* 
altuatlon regarding veneral dlaeaaes In Ontario will be Bade 
at another tiae. In auDioary, however, i wouxd iii^e to point 
out to the Houae that the rate of ayphilla of all typea, 
reported In untarlo during 1943, was 180 per 100,000 population. 
The Incidence aurmg 1^44 Is giTen as 141 per 100,000 of popula- 
tion, a reduction of 21 percent. 

MR. H. CONNOR (Ha&llton Seat): Thanka to the C.C.P. 
May 1 aaic a question? fe onae the reaarx laat year tnat 
Tenereal dlseaae waa a eoonoaio queatlon and the auidloal heelth 
doctor, or the hon. klnlater of Heelth took riolent exeeptloa 
to connecting taeau But, I aee by the Preaa he haa adaitted 
it now. 

m. SPIAOR: Ihat la the queatlon? 

IfR. CONNOR: The queatlon ia, down he egree with it now? 

MB. VlYIijr: The hon. aeober hen aot naked a queatlon. 
The ooaaent which he aakea ia totally off the point. flM 
reduction of incidence of venereal dlseaae in thia Frovine* 
haa nothing to do with the incidence of eoonoaio prosperity 

7« . 1110 - 5-15-45 

•Bd the Bta» w true durlB£ 1042 aad 1945, •■ It «m la 

Ihlltt I do Bot exptot tte hoa. BMibar to roallM 
the ioplleatioBe of itiat haa happened, for his future 
iBformatioB it migbt be iaportajit that he ahuuld study 
the ways 1b which this reduotloB has beea aoeo^>llBhed. 
MR. CORT^R: tfould you like ne to q[uote froa oae 
of your speeches? 

M. SPEAKER: I would like you to obey the rules 

of the House. 


m. VIVIAM: I am Bot, at this tlae, 9o1b« lato 
tke Beoesslty for aa liiq;>roved aeataJL nygleae pro^reaBB 
iB this ProviBoe, aor do 1 propose at this tlBie to deal 
specifloally with oach of these Dlyisioas of the Ceatral 
Department, but I wish to indicate to the House the way 
in which these services caa be oade aore effectlT* to 
tke ladivldual resideat in his own locality. Plans 
haye beea formulated aad soae action nas beoB taJcea 
for the decentralization of serrices. For this purpose, 
the Province has beea divided into regions. Suoh 

areas of the Proviaoe ooataiB betweea 150,000 aad 
SSOfOOO people. This represents a grouping of a auaber of 
ladlvidual Health Uaits. Begioaal sarvlcaa, furaished by 
tiM Departoeat of Health at Froviacial ezpease, iaoluce 

. nil . 6-15-46. 

laboratory ■•rvleaa; aanltary anglno^rlnc. food oootrol 
under the diraotlon of an offloar tralna4 In Tatarioary 
aoienea; a prevention prograoaa for ohrcolo aoHKinloabla 
dlaeaaaa - auch aa, tuber ouloala and veneraal dlaaaaa; 
Industrial hygiene and aadleal progTiMMa ; and aupar- 
vision of public health nursing. The oarsonnol raqulrad 
for the staff are spocialisis in meir par^icuior flelda. 
Including paychlatriata for service in the Mantal Byglana 

In addition, there are three aapaota of the Central 
Department* a programaa worthy of mention. liaalth education 
is a primary requisite to the Imnrovenent of health. Thla' 
service is being revised and augneniea, so inac cne people 
of this ProTince will be enabled to receive accxirate and 
factual information upon topical s\ibjects from an author ita- 
tive aource. The second notable advance will be in me 
service that can be rendered on the aubject of nutrition. 
During the paat few yeara, the science of nutrition has made 
rapid progreaa. There is, however, no definite and preclae 
seaaurtnent of quantitative nutritional requireaanta. Thm 
Provincial Department is deeply concerned with interpreting 
nutritional requirementa to the public in toixoa of food, tbmj 
will be assisted in so doing by the consultant aervioaa of 
outatanding physiologists and by the very vahiabla experienaa 
which haa been gained by our armed roroea during uxe wax* 
▲outa connunioable disease is no reapecter of gaographlo 
boundarlea. To further the already excellent record of tlia 
prevention of ccouninicabie oisease in tnia iTovince, the 
Division of Kpidamiology in the Central Department atanda raady 
to act In the capacity of **shock troops'* to assist olther 
regional or local staffs to control ux*M9 nazarda. ihis la 

. IIU . 3-13-45. 

particularly trua in aucb dlaaaaaa aa infantlla paralyala. 

Thera ia a naw davalopnant in tha flald of Zadoatrlal 
Bygiana that rapreaanta anothar ploaaarlng andaarour by thla 
Provlnca. Ontario haa baaa alngolarly fortunata In tha rary 
abla individuals aho hava baan aaaooiatad with tha Dapartaant 
of Haalth in its Induatrlal nyglana DiTlalon. Thay hava 
been racognizad, not only in thla Provlnca, but throughout tta* 
Continent, for the work with tha Workmen* a Co^(>anaation Board 
and the Factory Branch of tha Department of Labour, for tha 
protection of the worker from the hazards of hia oceupatioa. 
In this new endeavour, I know of no oore capable ataff to 
xindartaka the task than thoaa who have remainad with tha 
Department of Health throxigh aevaral odminiatrationa. 

I hawa nantloned previously the principle of providiag 
a aervice for a special group within tha larger group of tha 
commiinity. Industry ia another exaopla of auch a group. It 
is now proposed to expand oxir present Industrial Hyglaaa 
programme. Thia will only be pose lb le at tha beginning 
through two or three demonstrations. Thaae deiaonat ration* 
are for the purpose of showing the benefits that do occur by 
bringing an iiq>roved tjrpa of preventative health sarvica 
directly to industrial groupa. The isq>roved health of tha 
employee is reflected in lesa absentaaism, a reduction in 
lost wages, more effective work, and ixaprovad induatrlal 
relations. Tha interest that is stiaulatad in sttployaaa in 
maintaining their health is reflected in their hoaaa and la 
tha CI ■■unity. 

Soma larger factoriaa now have auch aervioea, but tha 
demonstration conte^>latad, with Govarnmant aasistanoa, ia aa 
extension to smaller industrial groupa where llttla or no 
aervice exiats at praaant. 

- lll» - 


Cano«r It not a oozaBunloablo dla«fta«. it do«i, bow- 
ever, rank, seeond In the present oavuea of death of the people 
of this Province, and, aa such. It presents a aajor problea. 
Hay I pay tribute to a prerlous adMlnlst ration of this ProTlnee 
in setting up an Aot autiiori^ing the establiaboent of a canoer 
Treatment and Research Foundation. It aas not their prlTileg* 
to implenent this Act, throu^ circumstances which were definite- 
ly bayond their control. That priTilege has been one for this 
adninistratlon. The Canoer Foundation was established last 
year. The pro^traoM, in its broad aspect, wlUL provide for 
an improved service in the seven Cancer Clinics of the Prov- 
ince, which will enable them to undertake diagnosis and treat- 
ment of this coadition, irrespective of the individual's 
capacity to pay. 

Mr. Speaker, it should now be obvious that this ad- 
ministration has complete plans for its programme in the 
public health field. The successful conclusion of the 
war and the return to civilian life of so many of our 
medically trained men and wonen, together with new grad- 
uates, will make It possible to complete the major portion 
of thia prograaae in five years after the conelueion of the 
war. May 1, therefore, say, with all respect to the Leader 
of the Opposition, that there Is a defined time at which this 
programme eac come Into full operation. Bvenwlth the sub- 
stantial stsrt it will take time. This tima is not twenty 
years; it is more likely to be ten years; it eould be within 
five years if thoee f actor e over ebleh we have no eontrol 
should bring this most dreadful war to a suooessful oon- 
clueioa in the immediete future. 

The eeoond main division of any eoBprohanslva 
health progreaM is mediesl eere. Ay medloal car, I 



'«B ft«VO' 


loo esil floJt}£'' .n 

. b fell ri Jiaeri ol ■' '""'■^ 

i a em bnnti^ 
eldisaocr *1 eaiBin Iliw ,-e^6x/ 
2J :e iiaev tj?i i ni eisanoigoTq eix: 

jmi^ Benllefc a t i. starft tsr. IJleoriO e: 

rdT ,»atf »%Bi iltti :i tiaie lat^ttBiz 
■it ;ei8sv ai?J ec eioar et ^1 : eisey 

tA ;raoM Blil;^ s^lid bLuoAa 

*tft ffistbeimst edi cit aolauXo 

11 - 1114 - »-l»-45 

Mr, flvlai 

■•an th« tr«at»«nt tihieh i« oBdcrtakaa for tha ftll«Tl«tloa 
•r eur« of llinMs in tb« affaatatf person. Oortllv* ••r- 
▼1m* ar* • Bftttar of iDdlTldual eooaora. This adalnls- 
tratlon r«eognls«« Ita rtspoMlbillty to UD4«rtak«, on 
bohair of the pooplo of tbla proTlneo, tho fvllaat In- 
Taatlgatlon of Bodloal eara problaas, witb a vlav to 
•stabllahlng In Ontario the boat aaAleal car* procraiM* 
that aaa ba produoad. 

The Departmant of Baaltb baa undartakan in tnia 
flald a fact finding aurrax regarding faailltlaa, aarrloaa, 
and tha financial arran«(aBanta that mli^t ba aada for paj* 
■•nt. Tha xirsi step in tnia regard *aa taKan m ma 
autuan of 1943 by the Joint Study Cooaiittaa on Uoapitalixa- 
tlon. At the aaaa time a atudy vaa eooBanoad on how auoh 
hoapitalizatlon, «banavaliabia» eouid Da brou^bt to tha 
paople, by a batter aathod of payaant. Tbat vaa tba 
baglnning of tha proeadura vhleh subaoquantly daTtilopai in- 
to The Uunlclpal Eaalth SarTloaa lot. Thla Coomittea and 
the A^Tlaory Coounlttaa on Uoapltallsatlon hara Inforaad 
■a that their reports will be ready vlthln tha nast t«o 
Bontha. It la contaapiatad tnat thaaa reports will 
eontaln raconiBendatlona for taoapita Illation on a ragloMl 
baaia to nrorlda for aetlre, ahronla aad oonvalaaaant 

To find a vay to iaproTe diagn^atio faallitlaa, 
a Madloal CosBlttaa haa haan appointed. Tha tazva of 
reference of the Goaatiltea are to inteatlgate and to 
report to the Uiniater of Haalth in reapeet of any 
Baa aura which ahouid ba under taken for tha iaproTasaat 
of the diagnoatia facllitiaa aTailable for asdloal 
poraotitionerat partieuiarly laboratory and x-ray. Tha 



:»mitei»tt. 9Sit neaa 

■* , J,Tf -3 -^Q 

,eeet- eil 

-••'" baa 

10 imufuB 
•^ •MA* »Ai iA 

.;♦•<* a -^d jol^oaq 
9tif ^ -^ 

olrra afl Ii? 

6 ear ino:j TXoalT<W 

"- '■ ' ' -'t ttdi an 

vaootn alBiaoo 
+ ■■-- - „« Qj eicBd 

w X^" s bnti oT 
-:a iie«d e^sd mBti taaoO Xaoii^aM a 
aad^tlflsaod aif^ lo aoaaicetai 

roat ol7eoasal5 aii^ lo 

Mr, TiTiftB 

OMBltt** la tf to obUiD th« •••lsUno«. advl** and 
opinions of any orfsnltatlon or parson Id (ba proTlaaa and 
■ay, If naaaaaary, aaak furthar aaalataoaa alaavtera. 

In ay opinion, thia is ona of tha aoat iaporiant 
AavalopBanta uadar eonsidaration in tba Dapartaant ai ite 
prasent tlaa. It ia fully axpaatad that thalr pralialnary 
raport vlll ba aubaittad at tha aaaa tlaa aa tba raporta 
of tba Coomlttaa on Hoapiialismtioii. A aora faroarabi* 
diatrlbution of madieal paraonnal throu^oat Ontario ia 
dapandent upon tba aatabllabaant of adaquata faailitiaa 
for hospitalisation and dlagnoaia. Tba vary aatabllab- 
aant of thase facilitias vlll go a lonf way to aakinc 
It poaalbla for aany araaa nov inadaquataly aanrad to 
hftTa tba sarTlaaa of ooapatant and «all-trainad aadicAl 

At thia tiaa I would Ilka tba Bouaa to alaarly 
undaratand tha financial aapaata of a aadical aara 
prograaaa. Subaidy from taxation vlll aaka it poaalbla 
for faeilitlaa and paraonnal to ba aora adaquataly dla- 
tributad throughout tha provinoa, «ill proTlda a graatar 
maasura of financial aaourity for thoae randarlng tba 
aarrloa, and can bring to tha indlridual raeiplant auch 
aarvieas at a lover coat if tha procadure is autually 
aoeaptabla to tha givar and tha raoalTar of auab aar- 

Tha problaa ia the typa of arraacaaont that auat 
bo aada batvean tba aadloal praotitionar and tbf paopla abo 
are to reoeire hla aarTloaa. Madieal praetiea auat not 
ba >opardlxad by any raglaantad prooodura vhlah aould 
daatroy tha paaoliarly indlTldual qualltlaa of tba aadloal 
■an blaaelf . Tha aatbod auat alao allov tba patient tba 

« am - 


baa 99ltbB ,eo!T3tet8ea ed^ alBta at -B^tttmrnoO 

J^iiBtf^ocfWi tRoiH ©rft to sno et Btdc ,aotatqo vm a' 


iB effll 
':■ 1 GToa A 

I .eotl arq 

i-niuua Oil 
bfjD 30 ttottudttt^ib 

Liv e^< obI 0B»if# 1o iaea 

I»:jxof)iii ucaxfiiir "ixbw oaa jaBJeqaoo 


5 »ri* «'■'. 

o ' 


BanoBTtr .31 rot 

";? aalrrd rrso ftna .Bolvrea 

XxxiSiJJ^ • JB 2S3iV'I6e 

-roe rfc isvi bne ibtIs ad^ o^ aldei'qaoaa 


ri7 ei aaidoiq ariT 

iiB xBaotfliiatq £Botb9m wii ca^v^ad a£>efl atf 

•".BOifiall .saoiTTteB elrf ov^oDBt o* 5tB 

itluQW aoxav aiuoeaoiq aajaaxisei ■'^6 x<3 casxciaqoat ©^ 

iBCibBm adt lo Bal^lia/ 5lTib*^i xIibI 9dt ^oiJea* 

*OIl8 obIb teisat BodJaar ecfT .*VI©afliirf flem 

odv 6 

Wt» flrian 

wid«st posaiol* obolo* io th^ MUotioa of tiM faallf 
medloal adTis«r. J •■ quit* oartaln that tba tolntlen of 

tbia problaa can coaa froa the nradloal profaailon Itaalf. 
Thay axa Juat aa aaxioua aa any ioaivlduai, or any frovp 
of individaala» to aao an laproTOAont in ■•dioal praotlea. 
It la thair taak to aaaura thatualTaa and aa that suob 
axraQ^waanta of a finaoolai natura will saat t&a full 

If tha ooat of aarrioas for a aadleal aar« nro^jraa 
ara to ba aubaidieed oy taxation, tnaa a aataod auat d« 
proTidad for tha larying and eollaotion of web tax. Wbila 
tha mattar is opan to debate, it is ffanarallr secer^tad by 
health authorities and others, suoh as toa Intaruationai 
Labor Orgaoiiation, that indiridual oontrib itiona to plans 
of this sort are of crime neoeasity. It was raeoxnixad by 
this tiousa laat year toat . if iodiridual contributions ara 
to ba oollaoted, tha only laral of goTaraaaat oapabla of so 
doing ia the nunioipal one. This was the main principle for 
The Municipal Health Serrioea Act* Tbia Act Is aisply an 
inatruoient by wbioh a health program can ba davalopad on a 
tax basis. Its scope is sufficiently wide that alsost 
anything can ba done in tha pronotion of a madioai oara prograa. 
And again I would mention that this prineipla baa baan aocaptad 
by tha prewent Gorernaant of Jaslcatobawan in tha paasing of 
tbair Health Sarrioea Bill. 

At another tiaa I will prasant tba Report of tbt 
Ontario Ifunioipal Health Sarvioaa Board. btt I wish at this tla* 
to draw tba attention of tha House to tba fast taat tba Board 
ia in itsalf a Planning Coaniasion, aada up of rapraaantativas 
of those giving and thosa rtaaiving tba sarvioa. 

w»: e«ioo lao ffi©Idoiq 9lAS 
q iii» ei;clxu£ &.B S^%t$i •IB X*^ 

•«B oS ,&iBDblrlbal lo 

8.1 /».r ©• . vo-iq 

* .-^ 


XJ iK, t o v 

.•^f t' 

1^ H' 

. 111? . »*x»-4e 


nk«lr r*oo«Mndatioo Is to ••iablith otrtslo d«aoo«tr«tion 
units within tbs Prorinos for porpoMS of r«o% sod «ost 

Tbs tbird part ft s soaplsts bsaltb procrsa is s 
ossb indsnnity to an saplofsd indivldusl, aot protsstsd 
by otbsr mssns, to ooapsnssts for lost wagss st tbs tias 
of illnsss. Tbis propossi b«s ssds its sppssrsnss in slaott 
sll of tbs many subalssions on bssltb plans. So far, no oaa 
in Canada bas bssn prspsrsd to fully inrsstl^ata tbs 
pelllbilitl as of providing susb a aarvios. Tbis OovsmaMnt 
has undsrtaksn to fact-find in tbis oonnaction. 

Vs bsTs in Ontario a VorlaMn*a Ooapanaation Board, 
wbiob, through suosaaaiirs adaanistrationa, baa aada a notabla 
contribution to the wslfars of labour. Tbslr spaoifis 
task is tbs admioiatration of The Worlciian'a Coapaoaation Act, 
Such adainistration baa proridad a waalth of infomatioBt 
and tha Board is in tbs fortunata poaition of baring highly 
trained statistical and other staff to iutarprat !%• Tha 
Vorlcaao'a Coapansation Board bas baan aairad to undartaka 
a survey to obtain inforaation regarding tha pasalbilitias 
for the payment of cash indemnity for illnaaa to oartalo 
groups of aaployad IndlTiduals in this Provlnoa. 

Tbs Uiniatar of Labour and the Chairaau of tha Board 
have vary kindly consented to co-operata with tha Oapartaant 
of Hoaltb ii> this undartakii^. I wish to aaka it quita 
clear, and I am sare that tha Uiniatar of Labour dasiras that 
Z do ao. that all that is bsing raquaated of tha Board aad ita 
offisiala is such inforaation aa I have Juat outlinad. Thia 
will be dona without coat to the Vorkiea'a Coapansation Board. 
Vhaa such findings hsvs baan produced, there will than be ao 
opportunity to diacuaa tha aattar with rapraaontatlvaa of 

t] axi I. 

:» am oy xiiamtbai daBo 

-■i7 0iq to aexr 
i avsd oft 

"JiToff eilT lo nol^B^ifetnimfrB erf* r1 31b8^ 
) »iii al el b'iso6 9di ban 

! a if! 'Vfita J 

) le^alaJJia 

. j^ijti»;r:i«'i: ;lJla«ii lo 

911! • ors I bafi ,i0Oio 

^^Bii. - -Juiiolai iloijt: el aiBi»mo 

inoQ iuosiitu Baob »o Iliw 

- 111§ . »-l»-45 
^"' Mr. VlTUD 

indaatry, both «iplojr«r and •■ployed. 

And 10. Mr. Spaakar, whlla tha Laadar of tha OppoaitioD 

"ragrats that tha OoTaraaant hara fallad to laplanaat tbalr 

proaisaa with raapaot to haalth aarTloaa,* Z wiah to point 

out that thia administration haa andartakan: 

!• To aaoartaln tha faota upon whloh a policy can ba 
baaad regarding oath indaanlty for lllnaaa. 

fi. To dataraiina tha baat way of profidio^ hoa pi tali tat Ion 
and dlagnoatlo aarrioa, and to dataralna tha bast aathod 
of payaaat for aarrioaa by sattin^ up auitabla 
daaonstration uoita. 

9. Complata plana hava naan aada for tha laplaaantatlon of 
a public haalth pro^raa, of whioh Dr* John farrall of tha 
International Haalth SarYioaa of tha Roekafallar 
foundation haa this to aay : "Tour aohaaa, in ay opinion, 
la axoallant and, whan fully fflatarialisad , your Prorinoa 
will have undoubtedly a haalth sarrioa unaatohad in any 
large rural prorlDoa or atata.* 

Two new health unita bare baan aat up, thraa "aora 
applioationa are on fila ad in a nuabar of othara tha 
prlnoipla has Dean aooepted. The iapleaantation of thla 
plan will go forward aa quiokly as parsonnal can ba found aad 
trained. The training facilities hare already bean arran^ad. 

Thaaa undartakinga, in addition to what has baan 
acooapllahad in other Dapartaental aotiTltiaa in (1) tha prograa 
for the treataaat of early nental disturbancaa in general 
hoapitala; (£) adTancaaenta in Cental Hygiene; is) a building 
prograa for a new .type of aantal inatitution; (4) tha axtanaioa 
of diagnoatio faoilitiaa In tubarculoala control; (5) tha 
proaotion of additional tubarculoala aanatorius aoooaodation* 
(6) the control of vanaraal diaaaaea; (T) taa proriaion for tna 
traataant of cancer; (6) tha Induatrial Baalth prograa; and la 
(9) tha planned aurvey for tha protaotlon of food. aar. iB 
tha opinion of tha I.aadar of tha Oppoaition. oa a "vara nioDia at 
tha fringe of one of our great eat problaaa,* but X bag ^o tahttlt. 
■r. Speaker, that a aubatantlal aalorlty of tha people of thia 
Prorinoa will consider duon a nioDie to oe q>aita a oita* 


:neiur «(1 ac inimt^B ' "sri^ ^l-u 


ti.Lij <.c uoiiMbauo\ 
e ' ■" *^ "•'*?*». ""■ ".^jqypaa iisow tan uif^^-arxici 

aoi?.n©;tA 901 to ©qy^. w»n b lol AjBasoaq 

e:1t ' -^ at eei:tiiiofll oi;t80fia«ifi ^o 

*fi£i£e fLieoiuoieo. ... .;.. , \^ 

VI. (S) 
fB ©. a eilct to aoiaXqo *:^di 

icr lasJB«TQ ti;o lo sno ^o eanii*^ 9tii 
I '■ " vJXiotfiffl iaxJiifisece a jeaj ,a93i£sq' 

Due 1 •) iilw •oaJtvoi^ 

Mr. TlTiaa 

t. OVBRAU,! Mr. 8p«alMr. M]r X atk tte Mlnlat«r 
a question, with your parBltsloB? I vould ask vbatbar tb« 
arrangaaant at 3t. Joaajih'a laland aatiaflaa tha prloolplaa 
vhloh tba Mlnlatar baa outllaaA. 

m. TIVUN: If it la tha daaira of tba hon. 
■aabers of the fiouaa to antar into a ooaplata dlaeuaalon of 
all the diffleultiaa of nadleal oara in thla prorlnoa, I am 
quite prepared to take the Daceaaarr tiaa. Tha dt.Joaaph'a 
laland progranaa la not a munioipal health aemoa aahaaa 
beeauae it ia paid for on a Toluntary baaia. I ahaXl b« 
glad to dlaouaa that question with the hon. Baabar at acaa 
other tine. 

MI3S MICPBAIL: Mr. Speaker, if I Bay be all««a« 
to ask a question of tha Mlnlatar, he aald that t«o health 
units vere set up. May I aak where thay are. 

MR. VIVIAM: One waa preTlouely In eziatenoa. 
Tha others are in the Porcupine aaap at Tlanlna and In 
the Klrkland Lake oemp. 

MR. MITCKBLL: The Mlnlatar baa referred to aanl- 
torium aeoonmodatlon for tubereuloala. Waa he speaking of 
the future or has he already Bade anple prorlelon for these 

m. viviiif: I am afraid that tha hon. Mrtbar la 
attaaptlng to be a little trleky with hie queatloo. It 
takes tlae to build aanltorla and to raarult tha staff. 
ProTlsion has been aada that aa aoon aa labour la sTaixabla 
the prograoBw ean go narkadly forvarA. 4a tha hon. aaMber 
knowa there are a nuaber of bede available Ic thla proTinea 
at the present tlaa, but we eennot get tne people required 
to look efter thea. Also it la difficult to «at patlanta 
to go froB their local areaa even e slight distance to re- 
ceive cere and treataent for tuberouloeie. The plana will 



^3vg B 


t ■ 

: 9ll 

^ '* - 




e f eiiKit 


X .HM 
afcaJH xh&QtlB arf 8«rf to eiiftf/'i arfcf 


ILtM anaXq ariT .eiaoli/oiecfjudr rrol ^-aoiBd^aei* fcna *XftO oriao 

■r. flTlAB 

b« lfflpl«m«nt«4 and oonatruotion go forward at tba 
••rllaat poaalbla ■OBent «han laboar Mid ataii ara 

Ifl. MITCRILL: atriatly futurlatlcl 

MR. TITIAN: Th# procrttHM la uad«r vay bo«. 

m. MILLARD: I notloa, Mr. 'spaakar, that it ia 
alBoat S.30, and .1 plaoa ayaalf in tba banda of tba Boua* 
abathar I abould atart nov or parbapa tba Roaaa would ood- 
aant to oalling It six o*oloek. I an praparad to go on 
now but would prafar not to bava my apeaab brokan by 
tbe dinnar reoaaa. 

IB. 3PIAKIR: Tba Prima Mlnlatar la not In tba 
bousa at tba moaant. I undarstood tba Intantlon waa to 
rlaa at alx and raauma at algbt. 

MR. MILLARD: I tblnk It la only fair for aa to 
aay tbat the Prime Minister Indicated tbat ha wanta ua to 
proceed with this debate aa rapidly aa poi albla, but ha 
did not know Juat how long the Minister of Health would 
take with his reaarks. I an quite prepared to go on nov 
If the House desires. 

MR. FR03T: It la twanty-flve mlnutea paat flTa 

o*olook and naturally we would prefer to go on now aa tba 

Bouaa la aonawbat In arraara with Its bualnaaa. On tba 

other band we oartalnly do not want to ambarraaa tba bon. 

namber for York Meat, and if ha faala that it would ba an 

•BbarraaaaAnt to hla to prooaad now I would ba agra^abl* 

to oalling it alz o*oloek. 

MR. SMITH: It aaaaa ai»W^falr that tba boa. 


■amber ahould not ba aakad to atart hla apaaoh at thla hour* 
ooly to bare it brokan. Z think arary bon. aaab^r baa tba 
right whan apaaklng in thla dabata to ooaplata hla ap««ah 

BIB ileta Jbaa nw 

1 J i V- i; .1. i. 1.' •.; 

.wort Yow T8onn «i; 


•noo i>i 


9riJ nx Jon al tsS-e^^'IM -^rii*? ariT 

te otuqd 

oj am lot til 

oi fix 

i Tiiiirf* 

" -^ *r r> • 

03 o. 
9i1;r no . ee 

ads eB-'^Tife 

A' ew -^xxr " 

rttA >v 3Moe Bi eeuoH 

.nofl Sri - -.tees ji :ti'ii:.'. 

jTuoit eJrnd- ;r« xiooaqa Bid t-. ')«7LeB ed *on t ladniem 

«rft • A-rldi- I .n&yiot<i tt averi o* rLno 

d8«ayqe exii sjalqaiQa oi' Soficsii 3X12.: ;5aqe iiar 

- 1181 - 9-19-48 

Mr. amith 

at the on« olttlnff. 

MR. SRAKK*' A Botlon to adjourn l* net dahatsbla. 

■I. nPBIJRK (Kigln): Uztd«r tba ruiaa it la xmx 
DBoaaaary to fflova tha adjoumaant of tha Bouaa. All that 
la naoasaary, Mr. Spaukar, la for you to oall it six o'clock 

MR. SPKAKIR: I ma trying to gat tba opinioc of 
the House. 

At six o'clock the House took reeaas. 

isii - 


erii iD 


VTBESsn en 

-li£8 - 
SPUlXKR: HoDOurabl* lllllaa J. St«««r%, C. B. I. 

Toronto, Ot^tarlo. 
Tuesday, mreh IS, 1946. 


The Bouse resumed st 6:00 o'clock, 

UR. C. U. MILIAiiD (York lest); Mr. Speaker, as I 
rise to take ny place In this debate, I would be aalsa If 
I failed to express ny own personal appreciation for the 
reoarks of good will that have been tendered to ae on ay 
return froio a recent trip OTerseas, by asBbers frou all 
sections of the House. And, at the saae tlae, I want 

also to tender my own personal appreciation for the privilege 
ana faTour which is extended to me not only by the Trade 
Union Movement that I have the Honour to represent, but by 
the government of Canada who deeaed the World's Trade Union 
Conference important enough to see that the elected dele- 
gates from the two congresses of labour were provided with 
priorities and transportation to Great Britain. 

To-night 1 propose to deal with five aaln subjects, 
all haTing to do with ay visit to Oreat Britain, to the 
■orld Labour Conference, and to ay trip over to tne fighting 
front in Belgium, Holland and Oernany. I want to talk about 
the world Trade Union Conference and soae of ito iaplleatlona. 
and 1 believe it extends directly and leads into the subjects 
under debate at this tiae, 

X want to talk about ay viait to tha fighting front 
and tell sooa thing about tne oonditiun in anion 1 found our 

- |ft9 - 3-19-45 

Mr. Millard 

soldiers, as noorlv on I can froB my own oeroaial \m&K' 
Bant aac taeir uttiiuaa. Ana i aant to teii. aoaeta^af 
about tbe peopla of Oreat Britain and tba otber luropaan 

I alao want to infom the Meabera of tna ttouaa 
about a visit vbioh I «as able to pay to tbe British 
House of Connons in Session in Westaiastar. And Lastly, 
but not least, 1 want to talk alao about Canaoa aooua 
and its relationship to the Ontario House and tbe work that 
is beiiig carried on in our behalf by tbe A^ents-Geaaral 
in London. 

I must say, at the outset, that baying Just 
returned from Holland, having been up aa close aa seven 
ailes to the front line, having sean our soldiers who were 
in the line In the luomimg and talking to thea by four 
o* clock in the afternoon aa they were getting ready to so 
back on leave, i «ub eunBzed, astounded and astaaaad, bAving 
left tkat serious situation over in Europe, and almost 
Bosentarily by to-day* & transportation ooae back here and 
fina tae level of debate in this House; and I say to sooa 
of the Hon. aeabers, -- and 1 certainly do not vast to deal 
in personalities, but I say tbatr^lfll perforaanca vbiob I bave 
witnessed in this House, they are not aware of the saerifioa 
and tbe effort tbat is being aado by our boys overseaa. 

I want to deal. In tbe order tbat 1 bave outlined, 
with tbe lor Id Trade Onion Conference. I say again tbat 
J bave oonaidered ayself highly favoured, first of all, to 
be selected as a delegate to the first forld Meeting of this 
kind thut has ever been atteapted to held. And 1 waot, 
in the eourse of my remarks dealing with this particular 
part of tbe subject, to quote very briefly froa soaa of tba 

- Il£4 - S-iS»4ft 

Ur. HllUM. 

sp««ohes and soa* of th« d«ol«ratlona that v«r« aada at 
that Oonferenoa, bocausa I ballava that In no otbar aay, 
kr. Spealcar, viii. lae Uon. aastiara of taia iiou«a oava any 
appraolatlon of ttxa iaportanoa of tba work that «aa aeeoA- 
pilahed thera. 

AB a lAttar of fact, vae Frloa Mialatur of 
Great Britain, kr. Churchill, fait that tha Confaranoa 
was 80 Important thut ha, not baing able to attend, 
balac In Yuita at ine Conferenoa, daputiiaa tna iwputy 
Prime Mlniater, Hon. Mr. Attlea, to attend the eonferanca 
in his place and to bring a meaaaga for the Oovernaent of 
Great Urituin to tnuc conference. Su I eaat to quote very 
briefly, from the remarks of kr. Attlea at that tlaa, and 
1 want to point out to the Hon. miBabara of the Rousa« and 
particularly to those by wnou l am aorrouaded nere, tnat 
kr. Attlee himself la a Trade Unionist, and therefore in 
representing the Government and the Priiae Ulnlster, he felt 
entirely at home at that particular conference. 

I want ycL^ Hon. OMibers, if you can, to Tiauallsa 
the London County Council Building where the seating is 
more exteuaiva than it is nere, being mora tnan twice as 
large as thia particular chamber, whera the buainaas of tha 
London County Council is carried on. There we were from 
aiffloat every part of the world excepting anaoy oountries. 
There were dale^ataa thera from tha neutral eountriaa, 
from India, Kgypt, all parte of Africa, froL. Jiamioa. and 
a large repreaantution from the aoviet Unioni ana aose froei 
the United ^statea, Maw Zealand, South Afrioa, and from otter 
parts of the British CooBOnwealth. They were thara in their 
iir9»»9» ano ^neir turoana, witn tneir vunuua tongues. 
▲nd wa had to reaolve tha eonferanca into an intarpratatiom 
of what was being aalA. One person would get up and 

. ll£S . »-15-45 

Mr. MllUrA. 

•PMk in Spanish, and It vould tmr% to b« traaalAt*d Into 
la^lsli, «nd thtn, possibly, from Incllsh into duMlan. 
But, In spite of tbe dlffloultles lnTOlT«d, •• wmf sbis 
to understand one another, because «e aoon found ttaat va 
were talking In teras that we all understund. 

X want to say at the outset that we were not In 
Oreat Britain, -- because It also Included other parts of 
the British Isles, partloalurly In London, long before 
we began to realize that the 61ty In which thla Conference 
was aeetlng, ano before we began to realise sostethlng of 
what the British people had gone throu^ In the eourse of 
this war. 

It Is no secret to tell this House that the boabs 
are still falling. Of course, when you read the press, 
they were falling in the south of Sngland. I sas In ths 
south of fingland then when they fell, because one fell 
very close to the Bouse in which I was. And I aa not 
taking any chance of disclosing any military secret whan 
I say thut the people who «re suffering from boablng in 
1941 are still suffering in London and In the south of 
Jbngland. And I want to tell yoa, so that you aay haye an 
appreciation of the freedom which we have in this country, 
that there is no warning to the oonlng of the V-boabs, 
because no one knows where they are going to strike until 
the daaage is done. 

Toa nay read in the press of some oasualtles. 
I can only tell you of one instance, and I will not tall 
you where it landed, but there were, aa a reault, of the 
one bomb, sixty people killed and alaost one hundred and 
sixty people injured, and a whole city blook blown down. 
I «■ telling you thut so thut you asy understand tho 

- \U6 - 9-15-46 

dlfflcaltloa under ahloh the D«onl« ara living In Lon4oa 
ana toe aoutnern part or Groai iixiUkin. 

So that It »tts lo thla s«t(lnc that v« mm% in 

oonference. Bona of the aaidtsra of «hleh h«d oaim froa 

oountrios toat Haft been pr»Tiou«iy occupied; end otbera 

had oocue from India, and from the other p3*Aaa I have 


I think that eith tho^e worda of introdaotioa 

the Hon. membera of the ttouae will better appreciate the 

worda I am 0Ding to give you, whloh are quotations from 

the worda of the Bon. I4r. Attiee, ine Deputy Pruae uiniater* 

Be aaid, after the introductory remarket 

"It waa here in London in the early yeara 
of the war, when Bltler tried to force 
a quick deciaion by deatroying with boB^ 
our citizena and their hoaea, that the 
common people won a great victory a^inat 
the forcea of agreaaion by their heroiam anA 
endurance. Tou can aee the battle aoara 
of that fight around you. Tou can aee many 
ruined homea. ka you can aee, the apirit 
of Londoners ia unbroken. It can neTor 
be broken. " 

Then, further on in hi a reaiarks, the Deputy Prime 

Mlniater aaidi 

«Xa the free countriee, organised Labour hma 
ahown what free men and women can do. They 
have cheerfully worked very long homra; Xhmf 
have gone to the work that waa moat urgently 
needed; they have ocmtlnaed at work under 
conatant danger froa boiiblnc; they have ttkma 
their ahare of every kind of work, from the 
humbleat routine Job to aervioe in the highest 
places of government.* 

And tneAyiurtner: 

"Tou will kno« that in the eourae of the war 

treat advanoea in aocial and iadaatrial leg- 
elation have been, and era balaCt carried 


I add that beoauae I want you to aee that there ie 
aoaathlag which ia giving the britian people aaeottracMMBt 
to withstand all the daagera and all the fear, and all the 

Ur. MllUrd. 

bardahlps, the rationing, tbe lack of propar food, tb« 

laok of proper abelter, — aouatHing ia undarplnniac 

thaaa paopla; and I want, if I can, bafora I a;m f iniahad, 

to try and give you acme IdoA of vhat that aoaaihiog ia. 

And, near the oonoluaion of hia raaarka, tha 

Deputy Priioa Ulnlater aaid: 

"We need to creata a na« luropaan oon- 
sciousnesa, but thia eonaoiouaaaaa Buat 
extend to the naaaea and not be the pr»> 
aerye of the amall governing olaaa. 
Tfcare «aa, too, a general acoeptanoa 
throughout Europe of opral valuaa. ■• 
must restore this acceptance, but «a 
can and must go further. If Europe 
needs a unity of spirit so does the world. 
A sense of unity must transcend not 
Barely countries but continents. For 
this reason 1 am particularly glad to ••• 
here such a great and vuried aaaaably 
of representatives. 

I am certain that in building up 
this world unity, international Trada 
Unionism has u great part to plaj. Ihmi 
peace comes und conditiona get mora 
settled I hope that with modern tranaport 
aevelopments, intercouraa between tha 
workers of various countries of the world 
will be more and mere close so that peaca 
■ay raat not merely ou organisations for 
the prevention of war, but on a real 
unity of aim and a real consciouanaaa 
of Interdependence between all peoplea 
in the world brought about by actual con- 
tacts and peraonal friendahipa. 

I have no doubt that thia great 
Conference will be the first of many 
Farliumtints of Labour in the yeara to eoat 
and that in the futura aa in the paat 
world Trada Unlonlaa any ba a mighty 
force for Freadca, paaoa and aocial juatica." 

It la not much wonder, then, and I think 
ipsBbara in all parta of the Houaa will agr«« tliftt undar 
an incentive suoh aa that wnioh I have just daaorlbad, 
there in the heart of old London, thara in tha aldat 
of soma of the ruined aactiona, thera in tha midat of 
the people who have carried on from tha ba^nnlng, with 
thia modal group of delagatea, — I aa a«r« ymi o«a 

- use - 9-XS-46 

Mr. l&llUrd. 

understand why «• oame to reallz* very early In oor 
Conference that we must aohieT* unity, and tbat va muat 
do aomettiin^ oonstruotlTa about tba quaatloaaableh «a 
bad met to dlsouea. 

Page 1229 follows* 


- MC9 - 8-13-46 

Mr. Milltrd 

(1) Tb« Conf«r«no« was o«ll«d on • pursiy •zploratory 
natur* to plan full partioipation in tba saaauraa and worka 
oaloulatad to win an early and suocesaful allltarr viotory. 

(2) To atato ita riawa on tha paaoa aettiaaaat. 

(3) To aatabliab a world Trada Onion Con^raaa. 

That waa the main purpoaa of tba oonfarenoa aod that 
waa what the delegatea, representing alaoat 60,000,000 woricera, 
attempted to do in tba space of tiae between February 6tb aad 
February 17th. 

I am not going to taica tba tioe to explain about 
aooa of the diffioultiaa that were encountered, but wa did 
encounter dif ficultiea. We did have to reconcile our varioua 
Tiew point, we did have to ooae to agraaaant and oompromiae, 
but I am glad to report that we were able, through varioua 
declarations, to give acme vary constructive, to my aind , 
vary constructive reaulta aofaras that conference was concerned. 

I want to quote to the memoers something which 

appeared in the Declaration on the Tradea Onion attitude to 

the peace settlement, because with a body auoh as I have describe 

to you. acting in unity of all these countries in the world- 

and they did represent a very large proportion of our population 

in many countriea. particularly in Qreat Britain, the Soviet 

Union, the United Jtatas, and other parte of the British 

Commonwealth. Here ia part of that Declaration; 

" Id the confident hope that victory will oring 
permanent peace, thia <forld Conference paya 
homage to all who have fought and suffered in 
the fight for freedoa. The Tradea anion Bovaaaat 
will hold in everlaating honour those wbo bara 
fallen in battle, by land and aaa, and In tba air. 
and those who bare auffered nartyrdoa at tba haada 
of a cruel enaay. 

" The Conference paya ita neartfelt trioute to 
all who have served in the armed forces of the 
United Nationa, in tba Maroantila Varlnas, in the 
Civil Defence organiiations, in productive industry, 


BBd-li . iAbo - 5-19-46 


''aDd In tb« trtnsport and dittribatifc 
a«frio«s. By their ralour and toduranea, eo 
tha battlafialda. and in arary form of war 
aarvioa, and by their heroic aaorifioaa. a(to 
and woiaan alike hare won tha ri^t to daaud 
that tha riotory of the United Ifationa ahall 
lead to the creation of a world organiaatlon 
oapabla of enauriog a atable and enduring 
peace. The war haa baan fought by worlcihg paopla, 
and peace cannot ba organiaad without thair oo- 
operation and effeotite participation in tha 
oounaela of the peace-making Oorarnownta* 

"Thia World Conference therei|re walooaaa 
the historic Declaration made by tha Priaa Miniatar 
of Great Britain, the President of tha United 
Jtatesa aiKuthe Chairman of tha Oouncil of Peopla*a 
Coounissars of the Union of Soriat Sooialiat 
Rapublioa, following their Conference in the Crimea. 
In that Oaclaration this World Conference finda 
tha assurance that the sacrificaa and auffarlnga 
of tha working paopla will not hara baan aada in TaJ 

I am not going to read much of thia, Mr. Spaakar, but 

tha hOQ. mambara might be interested in oua or two mora aaotiona 

of thia Declaration: 

"From tha Crimea Conference have coaa binding 
guarantees that the Allied Governments will forth- 
with enter upon tha task of establishing a general 
international organiaation to maintain peace and 

'*Only when such an Asaambly ia in being can aueb 
question as general disaraasant , regulation of 
armaoienta, and other esaantiala of aacuritjr be 
adequately dealt with. 

Among theae esaautiala thia World Conference attache 
supreme importance to re-noTal of the economic oauaai 
of war. The Trade Union Morement cannot forget that 
one of the baaic cauaea of war is the scramble for 
markets by monopolising interesta. 

Thia World Conference therefore oonaiders it to be 
one of the earliest obligationa of the JLaaembly 
presently to be eatabliahed to inreatJiirte and pat i 
term to the activities of international cartala and 
monopoliea which militate againat the public intarei 
under wbatarer guiae they may function." 

Than further down in the document thia aignifioant 

aection appeara. I aay aignificant becauae it haa been lef% 

to labour to find aoaa aolution to a great world problem • a 

problem which waa uaed by the eneoy to touoh off thia great 

war in which we have been all engaged. 

BBB-3 - Xt3l ' 3-ia-45 

Mr .Ml Hard 

* This World Oomf«r«no« la of opinion too 
that aft«r th« waj:* thoioagh>golng r«a«di«s 
■Btt b« foand, through iat«rn«tional action, 
for tha wronga inflietad on tha Jawiah paopla. 
Tbair protaotlon against oppraasion, disorii- 
ination and spoliation iu any ooaotry aust ba 
ttia rasponsibility of tha na«r lotarnational 
Authority. Tba Jawiah paopla must ba snablad 
to ooatua tha rabullding of Palastlna aa thair 
Rational Hooa , so auooassfully bagun by 
lamigration, agricultural rasattlaaant and 
Industrial daralopdant . ** 

Than I want to* in conolualon, glra tha iMabara of 

this Uouaa tha banafit of tha oonoluding paragraph baoausa 

it does deal with labour's attituda, not only to tba paaoa 

•attlaaant in ragard to Qaraany, but that in ragard to Japan 


" It is tha viaw of tha Trada Union Moraaaats 

of thosa mefflbars of tha Unitad Nationa which ara 
at war with Japan that tha prinoiplas outlined 
abora, aa applying to the peace aattlamant to 
be iaposad on Germany, are equally applicable 
to Japan, and, in particular, that the Milcado 
shall not be allowed to escape his responsibility 
for tha acts of Japanese ailitarisa. that tha 
Japanese Kmpife shall be replaced by a tasnoorafic 
rapablio, and that the terma of the Cairo 
Declaration shall be rigidly applied in regard 
to those territories which Japan has seised in 
the course of har campaign of aggression.* 

I read that, Mr. Speaker, to tha maabars of tha Hooaa 
in order thatjyou might get aoaa idea of the Tcry forth^rigbt 
way iu which labojr haa gone into the matter of the osusaa of 
war, and what wa oonsidetato b^ the remedy to protaot tha 
world against future wars* 

I aa not going to deal a great length regarding what 
wl|8 partcitC the Conference, which waa to aet up a world 
trade Unioa centre, but I can say that there was enough unity 
generated in that Conference with a contiououa ooaalttaa of 
soma fourty-ona thatbatl baaA aai4dta4» tAainistration 
ooaaitta had been aalectaA* Than the World Trad 9 Union 
Conference will ba repreaented at the Sao Franaiaoo Confar- 
anoa, and that possibly in tha ooursa of tha next aix aontha 

BBBo4 - 1158 - 5-13-46 

*^ Mr.Mlllard 

a Constitutioaal Conrsntion will b« oall«d In whloh 
th* International or Vorld-wld* Laboor Trad* Union 
Congraaa will be eatabliahod. 

Z thiaic, oonaidaring the oatura of tba oonferenoa* 
oonaidaring the fact that it waa the firat tiaa that 
world labour was able to gat together, that oonaiderabla 
progreaa haa oeen nada. 

Now, I want to daal with the next question, whioh 
la the queation of the people of Great Britain, and the 
people of the liberated couatriea whioh I had the 
pxiTilege to viait. I an afraid I will be called ,llr. 
Speaker, as already has been mentioned here, an apoatle 
of gloom if I painted a full picture of what I saw in 
these Tarious ooantriea. I thinic it ia safe to say that 
the people in Belgium and Holland are at the moaant far 
worse off than they were when their country was occupied. 
That is, ilk the matter of food and fuel* The Gorernment 
haa not been able yet to function. The country ia atill 
in the midst of war. Svery road, every piece of aqaipaaat 
is in use to carry on a successful war effort and particular- 
ly the fighting front and the people hare not food to eat, 
tbeyuhave not fuel to keep thamseltres wara and they ara in 
a deplorable condition. I want to tall the aanbers of thia 
Houae or I hasten to assure tham that in ay experience after 
tha laat war the people of Franca and the people of Holland 
and the people of Belgium were not equally ao aloaa to tha 
Alliaa, and parttdularly to the Britiah Coaaonwaalth, as they 
are at thia tiaa. They realise the need for enduring Just 
awhile until relief oan be aat in aotion by Vm««And othar 

I think I 9lK>uld then tall yoa aoaa of tha thinga that 

- lisz - 3-13-46 


I l«arae<l from soat of th« oirilian population. On* 
■an I D«li«T« rapreaantad buainaaa • a buainaaa aan 
in Holland. Whan I aakad bia a quaation about what 
tooK piaoa during tba occupation in ra^ard to iaboar, 
in ragard to tha conduot of his ouainaaa, whioh waa 
intarnational •taaoauaa ha had faotoriaa In Oaraany. 
aa wail as in dalgiua and in Ingland , and in order that 
tha maabars of tha Houaa raight know what valua tO' placa 
on hia judgiaant , he )nd baan in an intarnment camp for 
twanty toonths aa a hoataga, never Icnowing when ha got 
up in the oxorniug whether tie would be allra at night 
or what time the Oeatapo oama along ha would ba called 
and lad out, lilce many of them were, and shot or 
tortured to death. But at the moment... 

- 1)84 - 3-13-45. 

Mr. UilUrd. 

Maybe I should toll the Bouse, in paating, I did not 
go, aotually, into the torttire ohambera. I shuddered just 
to go past them, but I did visit the internnent camps, vhere 
13,000 Hollanders were put to death, -either tortured to death 
or starved to death, or died from exposure, out of a total 
of 30,000 inmates of that parti oulcur ovap. There is another 
camp with almost as Gruesome a record in Belgiimi, which I 
also went by. I understand the Belgium Govexnment and the 
Holland Government are going to lasep these caoqps as a mark 
of what they have gone through and a reminder to future 

I tell that now because I want you to understand the 
significance of this man*s reply to a question I asked. I 
said, **What do you think of the future?** His business is 
not running, and, as I say, the people ej^ hungry; they have 
no fuel; they are enduring the hardships of the moment, yet 
he immediately replied that he did not speak, of course, 
afllelally, but he said he was expressing his own personal 
viewpoint and the viewpoint he had discussed with his associ- 
ates and fellow directors in the particular ooapany ti which 
he was employed, and he said, **Uy opinion is that we cannot 
do this all at onoe. It may take four, it may take five years, 
or it may take longer.** He said the hatred that has been 
generated through this war, "You are suspicious of your next- 
door nel^bour, who is charged with bein^ a collaborator 
because he was friendly to German soldiers, of fi cere or 
officiala." He said those days will have to be adjusted. 
••But,** he said. "T believe I speak for a large nunber of 
the people m ^ioxland when 1 say we will hmy to be pert of 
the united states of Europe, in trtiich Great Britain vlll be 


- 11)36 - 9-13-45. 

Ur. UlUard. 

a ■tnib«r.'* Ha named, at that time, tha Seandanarlan oovmtriaa* 
Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Franca and Great Britain. I 
would not have felt that waa eo slgnifleant If, in following 
up, I had not addreaaed a aimllar queaticn to a reaident la 
Bruaaels, Belgium, and I got almoat the aftoa raply. The 
raply waa different, in that they had not given Tery aerloua 
thought to the matter, but they had dlacuaaad it briefly with 
frlenda, aoqualntanoea and aaaoclatea, and the reply of tba 
man In Belgium waa, "I believe we will have to hava aoaa 
kind of dominion atatua, auch aa Canada and Auatralia." 
Thoee were the two llluatratlona he gave, and he aald, *^e 
will have to be a part of the Brltldi CoDmoQwealth of Rations." 

I tell the hon. membera of the Houae thla beoauae I 
want you to xinderstand that the people have not roX a grlav- 
anoe agalnat the Alllea, have not got a grlevaDoe agalnat 
Great Britain becauae they are not able, at the momant, to 
enjoy proper food and fuel acoocsnodation, but they are 
looking to the future, and they are thinking along the linaa 
that I havo suggeated. Juat in order that you may be better 
satisfied with our lot here in Canada, I think I ahould tell 
the hon, mambera the black market uaed as a patriotic devlaa 
during the occupation time haa now gotten completely o\it of 
control. The Government of these countries have no control 
over that, and a franc, that uaed to be worth eighteen to 
twenty oonta during the laat war, is now aortb two and one 
half centa. If you could buy a ton of coal, it would coat 
three thouaand franca, or $150.00 In our money. An agg 
would coat ten to twenty- five franea, or from twenty-fiva 
to aizty-aeven centa for one agg. Ewerythlng ia in that 
proportion, and certainly, in apita of , the alight inoon- 
venlencaa that we auffered during rationing in Canada, wa 

- i486 - 5-13-45. 

ICr. Millard. 

oould be proud that wa did not hAva to go through the serloua 
oondltloaa they are racing, tne people In Belglxim oad Holland, 
at this particular moaent. 

It 18 always considered that the Dutch people and the 
Flaaleh people, and the people in Balgliam, the Belgian*, are 
Tery dean people, and certainly I found that to be true in 
the last war, and in this case, idierever they oould find a 
aaall piece of soap. To glfe you an idea how much soap there 
is in that ooxuitry, because it is a real hardship when thej 
have to be without it, I can tell the hon. oembera of ttae 
House of a man who used to work for a soap oonpany in this 
city who was offered one hundred and fifty francs for a bar 
of soap, ordinary Lux toilet soap, and that would be approzl- • 
mately t^,75 for a bar of soap. 

Now, I want to say a word about my visit to tha 
Cemadlan troops. I want to eocpress my appreciation, at thla 
time, and the appreciation of my colleagues who were with me 
on this occasion, to the High Commissioner of Canada for the 
arrangttsant he was able to make with the irvy field Cnwanier 
to have vis as guests of the Army for four days, in the 
Canadian Army sector. As I said a moment ago, I was able to 
get within seven miles of the front Una. I was able to sae 
our boys as they came out of the front line in the ■ominf, 
and I talked to them in the afternoon. I was able to visit 
the Base Hospital. I say that to show tl^a diffareaoa between 
the kind of war being fought to-day and the kind of ear whieh 
the hon. meabers of thia House and myself went through between 
1914 and 1919,butIiBuat tell thia Houaa that the Canadian boya 
are out of touch with hoaa. 

The boys are confused about the ait\iation in Canada. 


- 1^37 - 3-15-46. 

Ur. lailartf. 

They do not Idnov what la golzig on orer here, In epite of the 
letters they reoelre. They hare been lifted Into another 
land. They have gone through this ezp«neno« In the laat 
tour or five yeara, In aplte of the fact they hare had 
letters frca home, - moat of them, - they Juat do not under- 
atand the laauea; they do not underatand the outlook* And 
In this connection, VSx. Speaker, I want to auggeat two or 
three thlnga. I think thla Houae ought to back a motion to 
bring It to the attention of the proper authorities at 
Ottawa that If facilities can possibly be provided that 
they be provided, to supply the soldiers overaeaa with weekly 
papera from their own home towna aa frequently aa poaalble. 
I think we ought to go to our municipal It lea, we ou^t to go 
to our various organizations, and try to hare aubaorlptlona 
arranged so that weekly papera will be forthcoming, and ao 
that Ottawa will get them tranaported by airplane or boat to 
the fighting fronts, to get these people back In toudi with 
what Is going on In Canada. They are hungry for newa froa 

I might tell thla particular Incident which occurred, 
because I think It llluatratea how the boya are feeling. 

One young fellow juat out of the linea, and he waa 
well supplied with franca, ready to go on leave, 
aald to ma, "Sir, have you any Canadian money in your pooketa?* 
I aald, "I have very little. THiy?" And he aald, "Would you 
mind letting me have a look at It. I ^uat want to aee aoae 
real Canadian money just once." That boy has not toen hoaa 
for five yeara, and he did not have much money when he left, 
according to the atory he told me, but he ia hungry for a 
touch of hone. 

There la one thing I found a little grievance about. 


- TSJti - 

_ . J u 

•jj-r"- I 


3TB 9T r- 

CCC6 - 1138 - 3-13-46. 

Ur, KlilarA. 

The oaDt*«n Goods ar« supplied through the HAA7, - 
that Is the Army, Navy and Air Foroe Canteen Senr^ee proTid- 
ed by an Institute in Great Britain, and they are eupplyinis tha 
Canadian Army at the front and leave centres behind the froot, 
and they are supplying the goods that the soldier ordinarily 
buys, but they have not got sxiTfioient sv^plles of Canadisn 
products to supply the Canadian boys and the British boys, 
aho also want to deal at these particular canteens. 

It is a wonderful thing vhat the Aiaerloan troops are 
able to get through their systems. They are able to get all 
their American products, their orange Juice and tomato Juice, 
flmd Amerioeui cigarettes and American chocolate bars snd 
American soap and American shoe polish, and all those other 
little things. Yet, the Canadian boys are not able to get 
Camdian cigarettes and other things through the canteen 
aervice. It may be too late In the war to deal much with 
that, Llr. Speaker^ but I do feel it was a sad mistake that at 
least this little home touch, was not provided for the soldiera 

- f 



,cnforf risf 

ati xt' 


. 3iii#te 

.tf»j4 ot 01 da 



DDDl - 1181 - 5-13-46 

Mr. MlUard 

I do want, Mr. Spaakar, through tha atenaai of 
thla Housa to urga upon tha aaabars hara what the hOB« 
membar urgad upon hla return frGB Italy that all of ua 
ask our people to write mora lattara to tha boja orar- 
•aas, and in writing them to put in the little intarast* 
ing detalla, the homely happenings on Main Street, in 
the villages and in the towns as wall aa parsonal aattara 
about the home, because the boya are hungry for nawa frea 
home . 

1 might at this Juncture tall you how they feel 
i^bout the war and about the post-war. They are aadly 
confused about the situation at home. Orer and orar 
again as I talked to non-commissioned offioars, offiaars 
and priTates, I got tha same atory: All we want to do ia 
to get the Job homa and to get back and areate a hoaa for 
ourselTos and lire in Canada, and lire in peace. That 
is their general attitude. 

But I want to warn this House that tha soldiers 
in the front line and in the supply linaa are not in any 
position to vote in any alaotion, whether it be federal, 
proTineial or any other, because they do not uodarstand 
the issues back here. 

2 aa also going to suggest that we through tha 
Tarioua major politlaal parties representee hara laplora 
the political partiea to lay out thair programs and their 
policies Jointly and hare them printed and then put ttaMI 
OTer the air, and saa that the boys OTer there are kept 
in touch with political davelopa»nts and tha outlook in 
this country. 

Tha boys are healthy, aonaidaring the oooaitiona 
under which they are fighting. I aa not going to daaarlba 

- eei 


rljiiai I 

moil «we 


Bi o6 o? ;?n.... 

*iol ftfflori fi •* ' • * 

i inaw I ^xi8 
... fen*' **!~;' 

'T*?'.'?t -5rrs B^'Bfzn-^ CT tt- ._3 ysI i"-* s*- 5^ ed^ 

nadJ 0^'^a [tan \l2ai.o(, eeloiloq 

4 l&a«£)ai »d ^ 

- 1140 - 3-13-45 

Ur. Ulllard 

%h9 conditions In this war btoous« oisy of you can vlsuallM 
them. Mbbj of you haye read In tha press about dam beln^ 
blown up and the land flooded. .Jeter In that country, as 
■oit of you know, creates sud, and our soldiers hare been 
f isbtinc flotd lyin£ In that Dud for days on end , when I 
talked to then as they were Just going on leaiw. 

Our soldiers overseas are getting, X think, the 
UkMt wonderful nedical service that could be supplied. 
Oxir Canadian nurses and Canadian doctors are giving really 
noble service to our boys over there. 

The boys are not discouraged. Jone of than feel 
that the five-year leave plan ahould have been placed la 
operation sooner, and soos of them feel that on coa^s- 
sionate grounds they have special priorities which they 
should be able to exorcise. But by and large they be- 
IJa ve that the leave plan is working equitably, fairly 
and Justly. Uany of then in key positions cannot be 
spared owing to the exigencies of the service, but their 
hope is that the day is not far distant when they will b« 
able to return to Great Britain and to Canada. 

1 think I would be unfair to the aambers of this 
House if 1 built up any false hopes. The boys and tta* 
officers 1 talked to have no illusions about the Job ahead 
of thesu They are quite prepared for any eventuality. 
Many of them, of course, not being able to see the itiole 
piotixre and realizing the intensity of the fighting ia 
which they find thooselves engaged and observing the 
courage, alaost the fanaticism of the eneaqr, are not 
looking for any eeurly cessation of Major hostilities. 
Many of them feel that they will have to spend a con- 
siderable tioe in the axmy of oooupation before they ar« 

BB , 

I iliȣiSi 


oat am 



• 1141 - 3-13-46 

Mr .Millard 

abl« to b«gln %h» rtatoratlon proo«sa«s In Ocrtaany adA tb«s« 
otb«r oouotrlet. Eowwr , I must pay tribut* to our aaa 
aad offloars. This It a dlffarant kind of war froa what 
aoat of ua bava aiparlaaoad. Thla la a fighting , working 
war. For •my man up at tha front thara ara a nuabar of 
oian aupportlng hla on tha aupply llnaa and In tha worlcahopa 
aa OMohariloa and Inatruotora, halplng to faad tha aupply 
llnaa and prorlda tha man at tha front with tha naoaaaary 
aqulpmant . 

Canad'a aqulpaant la standing up wall at tha 
front. Tha offloars and snen ara rary ooapllmantary In 
thalr ranmrka about tha good Job that has bean dona by 
Canadian Induatry and Canadian workara. 

I do feal that I should azplaln that thara la 
a aplandld asprlt da oorpa axlsting batwaan tha otan and 
tha officers. In the reinforcamant camp whloh I rlsltad 
I mat men who were going back Into tha Una aftar balng 
wounda(| and In hospital, and man who had raoantly coma 
from Canada to the ralnforoamant depot In Graat Britain 
and had taken thalr training In Britain and had paaaad on 
to tha ralnforoetnent depot behind tha llnaa In Balglua. 
I talked to theae men and thalr offloera and I muat aay 
now with raapact to thaaa man who have gone OTar froa 
Canada to thaaa ralnforpemant dapota that I think It la 
a matter of public ragrat that a leading man In Canada 
ahould hare glran a wrong iapraaalon about thaaa raln- 
foroamant unite, thaaa Oanaral Jarvloa aoldlara who ara 
now proceeding to take thalr plaoea in tha front Una. 
I aaw more than four thouaand of thaaa man and I bava thla 
to aay to hon. mambara of thla Houaa, that out of four 
thouaand, or mora than four thouaand, oal]f ona man up to 
that tlffla had taken the poaltlon that ha waa not going to 

r p, - IWX - 

nem %vu ci etfxidl^cf y«f , aevewoH »Beltiauoo letiio 

gniijliow , ,- il fi 81 eiil'i .tsocsiieqeo 07BJi eu lo jeam 

oqof^^'"''T-^'-v ft _ bf!R RfiiT ! Tie 9/l:t ."ro mir! anl^ioccrue noin 

YlQQ'-'e ®"^ I>ee1 OS ^alqxQH ,e-ic Jj.i je.. - - -^ 

YiBseeoen a.lct riJiw ^nci f.' 

ycf snob lesa EBif jfarf^ do^ *-,-o£ afi .'c csJiarret ilsifi 

lad* leel oi> I 

bne n^.T! arid' nsewctad -^r-itElxe eatoc pfc Jlirree hlfcnsicre s 
bBSXiii ' 6oioiDi5»'i. i>»ic ii ■ . . .: 

8^ ' -8 Biem oriw a»in 

smoo vJ.trfensT r. .r3:tiarrij -re fcf*. 

ao beeeeq beil bnB aiB^i :^lal»ii liBdi nBJiBt bBA baa 

yse JEu' 3 8it ^aJ DitB iiex;: aeei: , r ~ 

ffioa? lovo enog evari oriw nee; Baedt oi Joaqeea dllw wcm 

-iiloi oeerivt ^jjocfB oaw t bluoda 

918 oriw eieil : :r±ol 

eld* avBJri I Lne neE ewsr awoxltf luot OBtii aioin wbb I 

ILO'^ *zrit .aeiroH eiri? ^o ETwd/rsn: .nor ^«e o^ 

o- %-Uio , Diifiti,or!j li/ot ::flfl5 «ioci ao ,t>aBBUoAt 

oi snlo: »ti iaxii aolilBoq edcf neia^ bail ealt iadi 

- 1142 - 3-13-45 

llr. Millard 

go active with tho rest of bis follotf soldiara — only 
one nan out of more than four thousand. 

I want to say this too because I think it is 
inportant. These General Jeryice reinforcements tbat 
are now going up to take their place in the Una era 
being accepted by the other soldiers, some of whom bav* 
a wound stripe on one arm and sons with service stripes 
indicating three or four years service on thoir other 
arm are being accepted as buddies and pals, as fellow 
soldiers who are anxious to get this Job done, and it 
would certainly be doing a disservice to Canada for any 
public man to raise the reinforceoent issue particularly 
with respect to those who are at this moment proceeding 
to do their duty. 

I am satisfied, lir, opeaker, and hon. menidera 
that the reinforcenents that are gaing over to assist the 
boys in the front lino will uphold the splendid name and 
rocard and reputation that our Canadian boys have estab- 
lished for themselves on the fighting fronts. 

I want to speak a little of my visit to Ontario 
House. At the outset I want to pay tribute to the splendid 
work that is being accoaplished by the Agent General for 
Ontario, Major Armstrong. Ue made xu feel perfectly at 
home, myself and my colleagues. Ha showed us over the 
premises of tnteurlo House emd Ontario Club, which ia 
performing a distinct and useful service not only to 
the arnad personnel from Ontario but for our Canadian 
boya generally and Canadian officers alio want to visit 
the officers* lounge and the quarters provided and take 
advantage of the catering aervioa provided at Ontario 
Houae through Ontario Club* 


- 1143 - 3-13-45 

UX, LI Hard 

I oortQinly would be n«cl^(>«nt if 1 failed to 
z»ntlontbat Major Amstro% ax*rui^ed a bonqfuat at vhlob 
vo icot tho dalagatos to tba CoaBaomraalth Halations Con- 
farenca togatbar vith tba dalagataa to tbo Trada Union 
Cocfaronoe, vharo «e zaat foroar Canadians now living in 
Drxtain oany ol' nhua xiavo uxs-sj-zieuxsaad tbenaolyaa in ttaa 
f ia Id of pulitlcu or in businass and in otbor fields of 
activity thore. i unnt to oxi^roaa v^ npprocia- 
tion at uuin£ invitod to sucn u ounquot azia oavizig tbe 
opportunity of meeting former oanadiana nany of wboa 
bave risen bigh in tbe service of tbeir adoptod country. 

Having said all tbat about i.Ajor Ariistrong and 
about untario uouse i would be tba last one to taioa avay 
any credit tbat is due for tbe i^lendld work tbat is being 
carried on tbore. 1 sbare tbo opinion expressed by tba 
bon. member for £.lGin iMr. Hepburn) tbe otbor day wban ba 
Intimated tbat untario House, ^i. Aticuiarly at tbo present 
time, is certainly x.erforming a very distinct function 
wblob it bas to fulfill. 

But I oust soy tbat i was alarmed at some of 
its functions wbicb x do not believe are tbe proper fuao- 
tions of tntario uouso, and wbicbi if continued, i oa afraid 
will create division and difficulty as between Ontario 
House and Canada House and tl» High Commissioner, and also 
create confusion in tbe mlads of tbe British people ganaral- 
ly. X want to roior again to soiaatbing which has alroady 
been mentioned since my return to this country. 

1X1 1 aa say at tbe outset that x accept tba word of 

the irrioa Linxstcr oxxa bxs stataaont rQcarain^ tho artlclt 

tbat wao written by i3«verley dozter, ...P., in nhloh the 

Prime minister is reported to nave said oartaln thlnca* 
1 aooept the rriae Minister's wcrd honestly and slnoarely 


^ DDOe - 1144 - 9-19-45 

I Mr.lUlUrd 

that b« did not male* the st«t«a«nt. 

MR. DRSl: Walt till you 0«« what b« vrltas about 
you afterwards. 

MR. iniXARD: I accept the Prlsa lllnlater'a own 
word that he did not make the statement. 

But here la a doounent whloh I think the Prim* 
Minister should sea la removed from the reading table of 
Ontario House. I have in my hand a reprint from 
Srerybody's Weekly of September 30, 1944, and It baa 
upon it the stamp of the Agent General, Ontario Houae* 
ProTinoe of Ontario. It was taken off a plla, and 
therefore I must conclude that there vaa a quantity of 
them for distribution, by the man who gave it to na aho 
happena to be an officer in the Air Poroa who brought It 
to me after I vlalted Ontario Houae. Thia officer «aa 
quite exercised about the whole matter. Aa I say, thla 
reprint has the stamp of Ontario House upon It, and I 
aay that that stamp gives some validity to the atatamenta 
which are printed in this reprint and placed on the table 
there for the public and for the visiting soldiers. 

The hon. member for Slgin has already quoted from 
this article and I want to quote from It also. In ay 
opinion it Is not a good thing. I am going to quote 
passages from it and leave the House to Judge for the*- 
aalvea whether it la well to have thla form of propaganda 
distributed containing aa It doea what amounts almost to 
mlarepresentation. quantltiea of thla reprint must nava 
been purohaaed or aeoured by Ontario Bouae or given to 
Ontario Houae and are there azpoaed on the table for 
anybody to read and oonauma. 

After the paaaaga whloh waa nad by the hon. 



- h. 

. J n 3;:; •„ 


A atn -J 

. L'O 

, to^O : 

• -9Cf 


DDD7 . ,,4ft - 5-15-45 

Mr* MllUrd 

■ttab«r for Blgln tlM other day this reprint haa this to 

say «ith reepeet to the Prima llinlatar (Mr. Draw): 

*Ha antared politlos and «aa 
aTantualiy elected to the Ontario 
proTinoial laglalatura aa a Con- 

"Ontario ia the biggeat provinoa, 
the richest and the moat influential. 
By tradition it is Protestant, Britlah 
and Tory. Tat by the time Drea entered 
the Lagialatura the long reign of the 
Tories had ended. 

"Soneahere about 1935 Ontario taald 
an election. Drew aas Sfpaerful member 
of the Party by that time but In the very 
midst of the election broke away frcB 
his leader because of dissatisfaction with 
hia policy. 

*Then George Drea «as to know the 
rough tongue of denunciation. A atoim 
broke over his head and in the uaual 
illogical manner of storma it blew in 
all cirectiona. The immediate result 
was an electoral disaater for hia party. 

"Then the storm subsided, aa ia the 
habit of storms, and Drew was chosen to 
lead «hat vaa left of the Tory party. 
One year ago came the next eleetion in 
Ontario. His enemies aaaailad him from 
all sides. ▲ federal miniatar in Ottawa 
ao lost his head that he aeeuaed Drea of 
being a «ar shirker. Thla vaa a lucky 
break for the Tory leader. Aa a flsllant 
veteran of the last war ha mada no reply* 
He did not need to. 

"Instead he ennouncad hia platform. 
Its firat plank vaa; *I believe in tha 
British Bmplre. ' ffhenthe votes vera 
counted hia party vaa in pover and the 
man vho had come from Oualph vaa Prima 

Than cornea the paaaage vhich the hon. member 
for Klgin and ulao the hon. member for Preaeott, I 
understand, have already read. 

Than the Prime Minister is quoted as having 
apoken of the vaat mineral vealth of Ontario, of ita 
huge induatrial plants, of ita fUrm landa and oreharda, 
ita foreata and its cities. It saya: 


. tot iMfii^a 

-^1 dilw xsa 

i ixorfT I 


- 1146 - 



*It vas like a fathar daaerlblng 
hla faslly to a poor baohalor. I 
askad him If tha rumour waa trua 
that ha ml^t go to Ottawa aa tha 
laadar of tha fadaral Tory Party. 
Ba did not a^en amlla. *I*Ta got 
a man'a Job to do In Ontario,* ha 

Than further down I find tbla: 

"Which of ua would lika to aat 
sail aerosa tha aaaa knowing that wa 
would not llTa hara again? That la 
a saparatlon which will laara Ita hurt 
for many yaara. Without that hurt wa 
naver could hava hald t^a Baplre to- 
gether. Tha Auatrallan who haa navar 
seen Britain apaaka of It aa 'Home*. 
The children do not forget the Mother 
Country even whan a generation paasaa. 

"But aa 
her parents * 

the daughter muat laava 
house for har own, ao It 

is good that girls from hare will go 

out to make their hcaas In Canada. 

So let us talk for a moment of what 

they will find." 

Then skipping some that la not relevant to tha 

point I want to bring out I come to this: 

"The summer is usually blazing 
hot bat Canada haa a million lakaa 
and you can swim and oanoa and dreaa 
your dreama in the soft, moonlit 
auooar evenings. Autumn or tha 
Fall, comes with dramatic auddannasa. 
September la a golden, azure month, 
lovelier than anywhere in the world. 
Following on, there la Oatobar with 
ita miata and the amoke of burning 
laavea. Than one night there la a 
frost and as if a knife haa baaa 
plunged Into the earth the laavaa 
run blood red. Than ooaaa that 
lovely fortnight *a aiaata of Indian 
Sumnar with all its falae faminina 
gentlenaaa. After that you wait 
for the flrat fllckarlng anowf lakaa 
of Winter and aoon the earth la 
covered with ita canopy of white. 

Ho P u b around tha Corner 

"You will not find a pub around 
the comer In Canada." 

The Ulnlster who Is looking after the Liquor Control Board 

had batter take thla to heart: 



«r I ^flipq 

DDD9 - 114? - 5-13-48 

Mr. UUlard 

*In8t«ad ther« la the *4rug 
• tore' whare the boys take the glrla 
for strawberry sundaaa, banana s|>llta 
and all the darloes to vhloh ioe eraaa 
MB be turned. There are beer parlours, 
but they are poor affairs. You must sake 
up your mind to aaj good-bye to tba goodly 
foruB of the *Bara and Hounds.' 

*If your Canadian husband Is a 
famar --• 

Listen to this 

• — you will find that the radio and 
the motor car have aooe muoh to ease 
the loneliness of rural life. Ihat 
Is more the Canadians use the Air Ser- 
vice with no more thought then «• 
travel by train from London to 

*If your husband la a factory 
worker in a olty you will learn that 
the Canadlana are far ahead of ua In 
labour-saving dosBstlc devices. Ibat 
Is more you will discover that good la 
plentiful, good and cheap. 

*Now let me give a word of advice 
to young women going out as brldas. 
RoBMnber that every Canadian soldier 
left a girl behind him, perhaps, two, 
three or even five. They will not be 
particularly enthusiastic that you got 
him Instead of theoi. Your husband will 
want them to like you and admire you — 
and they will, in time. If you play 
your cards well. 

•So here are one or two 'Don'te^ -- 

"Don't start talking of your hona In 
Street ham as if it were Blenheim Palaoa. 
Tour husband knows what It was like and 
the others will suspect it. 


"Don't talk of your parents 'if they 
dined m white glovea every night — 
especially if they did. 

"Doa*t tell the Canadians how muoh 
better everything Is done In Ingland. 
That la the surest wey of breaking up 
your hoaa and the Empire. 

"Don't talk about the Canadian 
accent. The Canadians think It la wa 
who apeak with an aoeant. 

"Don't tell your huaband that bt 
mlaled you about hla hose in Canada. 
Oat behind him and help him to b«o< 
a auccass. 


ztdi oi aB^ntl 




BDDIO - 114« • 8*19-48 

) Mr. VllUrd 

*1)on*t «rlticlst his fonMr ■•••4- 
h«arts. Ask then to your house «taftD 
b«*8 there and bind then to you. They 
will becoBs your real friends for the 
Canadians are naturally kind and daoent. 

"RemeBber this: Canada is a paradisa 
for children and if your heart is Ibnaly 
for the 8veet-aawlllng logllah oountryslde 
lire for your ehlldren end aaka ttaair 
happiness youra. Abore all, ra^liaa 
that you are builders of Empire « aa muoh 
as our ancestors who vent out there and 
blazed the trail through Tirgin foreata 
and by rivers without a name. 

*lnd If you haTe any aerioua cob- 
plaints write to Prlaa lilniater George 
Drew if you happen to liva In Ontario. 
He will regard himself as godfather 
to you all." 

MR. MaoLBOD: May I ask who wrote that? 

H). MILLARD: It was written by Beverley Baxter, 
M.P., a Conservative member of the British Parliament. . I 
suggest that the Prime Minister through the Agent Oeoaral 
ought to see that piles of literature of this sort bo 
discontinued on the reading table in Ontario House. 

Wt* DREV: I propose to Infoni the hon. maaber 
because be has been extremely fair in hia erltlolsB that 
the first I heard of thla was when it was brought up in 
the House. It has been dlseontinued already. It la a 
roprlnt of an article which I em afraid the writer thought 
was humourous, and which I aa afraid others soob to find 
humourous, but I agree that the huaour Is not of the kind 
that should be distributed, even though it waa given 
gratultoualy . 

m, MILLARD: I am glad to learn froa the Prlao 
Mlniater that it boa been dlseontinued, and if we can get 
the aaaa aotion with regard to aoao of the reat of what 
is produced, it will be all to the good. 

Then here ie e letter on the letterhead of Ontario 
House, James S. P. Armstrong, Agent Oeneral In the Unlte4 

oiaaa . 

■*3fiWE '^os:' 'T^ i 


^ .a 


'lis $B9^%UB 

' ■- -- '^ •■ -'---.-Tei 

.».JJ.Bff .5M 

an j^ J £-.7. J 'iejex;:xM 
^iw iioiioB affifis erl^ 


. DDDll - 1149 - a- 13-46 

f Ur. MllUrd 

Klngdoa, tnoloslng an applloation form In respaet to 
prospeetlYe cltlzanshlp In Ontario to vhleh tha hon. 
trnttbrnr for Ilgln rafarrad tba othar day. 

MR. DREW: Did tha hon. Baoibar obtain what ha 
Is going to read now froB Ontario Houaa? 

MR. MILLARD: No. Thaaa doounanta, plua anothar, 
vara handad to ma on my raturn from franaa, vhan I did not 
go baok to Ontario Houaa. I did not pick tham up Byaalf. 

MR. DREW: Did you gat than in Londont 


VR, DREW: But not youraalf? 

le. MILLARD: I did not pick tham up in Ontario 
Bousa. Thay vara brought frca Ontario Houaa to na. I aa 
Informed that they ware pickad up by an Air Forca offloar 
and brought directly to ma. 

Thia latter on tha lattarbead of Ontario Houaa is 

hftsdad "Prospeetive Citizenship in Ontario." I aball not 

raad it all because the hon. mambar for Klgin raad part of It 

to the House tha other day. It saya In part: 

*In anavar to your enquiry for 
information with regard to Ontario, with 
a ylaw to affllgratlng thara, wa anoloaa an 
application form and auggest that you oca- 
pleta it in datail and return it fcrour 

Than it aaya: 

*It la to ba undaratood that in 
ragiataring on our Imlgratlon Llsta 
you ara uodar no obligation to go to 
Ontario should you otaanga your alnd* 
^jr raturning thla font It will anabla 
ua to aupply you with furthar infor- 
nation about llTing condltiona in tha 
provinoa, paralt ua to forward your 
particulars to our Oovarnmant, and 
•wantually, whan a poat-war lanlgratloo 
aohaaa la announoad, wa will ba abla 

llataly to aand you full parti culara, 

•Our Oovarnaant la tI tally Inter* 
astad in encouraging haalthjTi young 

ZH;-' . 






'^ L>6bii&ti 

9 Mr. Ml Hard 

Industrious peopls to ssttls In our 
froTince, and «e tnvlsa^ a sabtBS tbat 
will ba oarafuily controllad and supar- 
Tlsad, so that tbera vlil ba hcaaa and 
Jobs for all «ho go, with a nlnlauB 
of hardships and adjuataant problaaa.* 

Than furthar down: 

*Ihen post'var plana affaotlng 
amlgratlon are announcad by the Tarloua 
governments oonoarned, we will than ba 
In a position to dlsouss your paraonal 
situation and ovary effort will be Bade 
to advise and assist you In the ful- 
filment of your deal re to live In 

MR. ROBERTS: What la wrong with that? 

MR. MILLARD: I have read that latter beeauaa In 
the first few paragrapha the impression Is given to the 
uninformed person who might be wanting to cone to Ontario 
that there is such a thing as oltlzenshlp In Ontario aa 
dlatinct from citizenship In Canada, and It la only by 
the last few words at the bottom, "When cost*war plana 
affecting emigration are announced by the varloua 
governments concerned," that It Is Indicated that there 
are other governments in this country to deal with lb 
respect to citizenship. I wantea to bring to tna 
attention of the House aoaa of thasa thlncs that ara 
quoted as facta about Ontario. I an not aaylng that 
avary one is not a fact, but I faai that too siaziy of 
tbaae Itama do not put Ontario In Ita proper parapaotlva, 
do not give proper infornatlon daalgnad to aoquriir.t tha 
people with the altuation they are liable to B«at. 

On the back of tha letterhead , undar tha 

heading, "Facta About Ontario", I find this: 

"Do you know that the Provinoa 
of Ontario: 

1. ffaa aattlad by the United terire 

SXUfi' g 





DDD13 - 1161 - 5-13-45 

Mr. lfllUr4 

Loyallsto from tb« rebelling U— 
Bngl«nd States in th« l«t« 18th oanturyt 
These people freely gare up their lands, 
homes and savings » and faced ail the 
hardships of pioneer life in a wild 
new country in order that they oould 
eontlnue to live under their British 

Z, Provides grant opportunities for 
an abundant satisfying life among 
people whose love for freadon was 
nurtured » developed and cherished 

in Britain? 

3. Is proud of btiing populated by 
almost 80 per cant British stock 
and intends to retain or Inc-ease 
this percentage V 

4. Together with the Popinlon of 
Canada. 13 further adv anced i n post- 
war p 1 an nlr4»^ prog rang. ' ny 

of the oth-.;r allied '^■--- 

I have underlined that particular item in these 

Pacts A.bout Ontario because as I rend the Speech frcn the 

Throne and from what I have been able to learn of ro*^'*^!' 

plans at Ottawa 1 doubt that any person can truthfully 

make such a statement as that. It f^oes on: 

*5. Is a sportsman's paradise for 
camping, fishing, boating, hunting, 
shooting, skating, curling, and 

&• Baa, at Toronto, its capital 
city with 700,000 population, the 
largest annual Exhibition in the 

7. Was where the world-wide tomen'a 
Instltutea Movement was started — 

in 1896? (It becan, on this Ontario 
model, in the British IsXes at Llanfair 
in Wales in 1915). 

8. Has over 300 species of birds, 

many being quite new to British people — 
such as that lovely feathered Jewel, 
the tiny huoKing bird? 

9. Baa a canal -• The Welland — with 
locka as big as in the Penama Canal? 

10. Has coQimerolal fisheries of great 
Importanee, on four great * inland keaa* 

— Lakes Superior, Buron, 2rie and Ontario? 

cxaaa . 


DDD14 . 115£ - >13-45 

Mr. MllUrd 

(There ere over • Billion lakes 
In Ontario.) 

I do not know who oounted a million lakea In Ontario^ but 

that la what it aaya In thla letter. It goea on: 

11. Producea half of all the cheeae 
In Canada? 

12. Leads all 'Jsnada In the production 
of minerals -- Inoludlng aw9T 90fiot all 
the world's nickel? 

I suhmlt, Mr. Speaker, that aueh a letter at thla 
particular time does not give a clear ploture of the actual 
situation, and that there is altogether too cuoh of thla 
type of propaganda. I humbly suggest to the Prima Mlnlater 
and the members of his goTernment that serioua oonaldaratlon 
be given to the quality of this particular pleoe of propa- 
ganda and as to the wisdom of carrying on thla particular 
work aa a function of Ontario House. I was told by Major 
AnBstrong that they are reeelTlng thousands of Inquirlea 
and that they are doing a land office businaaa aa a resuxt 
In this particular department. If the matter waa going to 
be settled in conjunction with Ontario Rouse, somathlng 
might ha said for it» If the true facts were represented. 
But I am worried over the situation beoauae Ontario Housa 
Is also maklni? a very definite bid for British Induatry 
and British maehanics to be importea uniario. I 
question, Mr. Speaker, whether thla la poaalble azoept 
on a cooperation basis and whether it la raallv a function 
of Ontario Houae. I queatlon alao wnetnar tias aort of 
thing ought to be dona unlaaa there haa been — and 
poaalbly the Prime Mlnlater will enlighten ua upon this 
point — full oonaultatlon pravloualy with the fiarltiali 
government. I made contact with mambara of the Brltlah 
•ar Cabinet and I heard and read aoma of the debates of 
the British Houaa, and I waa lmpraaa«4 that Oraat Britain 




. DDDIB 8-15-46 

I - 1154 - Mr. UllUrd 

f««l8 tHat aha la going to bsT* • vary great problaa to 
•olTa in tha poat-«ar years, that aha will naai an In- 
eraaalng birth rata and a largar population and alii naad 
all tba Industry that ahe can poaslbly gat to ra-aatabllah 
bar export trade alth varloua eountrlea. It therefore 
aaama to ma to be a little unfair for the , Ontario Oorran^ 
Dent to proceed along these llnea onlaaa an underatandlng 
has been arrived at with the British goTernmant, in vhiah 
case I hope that the members of the GoTernaent here alii 
Inform us of It ao that «e may knoa that these plans have 
tha full knowledge of the British goTernment and are expeoted 
to «ork out satisfactorily for all parties concerned. 

(Page 1115 followa) 

o* s: 






HON. GBORQB ▲. DRXW (Priae Uinl8t«r): Ur. 8pMJc«r, 
perhaps the hon. member {Ut. till lard) would prefer that I 
deal with this now, so tiiat no Inaooura'.e lJiq>resslon will b« 
left. SYerythlng that has been done there has net with the 
full approval of the Brltl* Govemnent. and. as the hon. 
nember ioicws, 1 believe, :rom tue i.,sc\.a^j.ons .ie iuxs nad, 
no single advert Iseisent nas, at any tioe, appeared in any 
Bngllsb publication asklne peopl? te ?cr!e l::tc Ontario House 
and apply for issaigratlon. xaa mere i&zx xr^x. zao name or 
Ontario Is up there is bringing them there In their thousands, 
and the hon. member rauat hftve ccme 1-. contact with the fact 
that one or tbo atrougesT; aosires m uritam, to-day, la to 
know about Canada, and all parts of Car.oda, emd any replies 
which are aent cut arc i '. rr.»-.r>rvj» t.r T<.>ouest8 wliloh hare 
teon made. 

But 1 would like to clear up one point, I do not, in 
Any *A7> offer any apology to this Legislature for any 
enthusiastic stateoents which nay have been made about Ontario 
or about Canada because they hafe been our best customers in 
the past, and are going to be our best custonwrs in the future, 
and it is a good thing for us to establish friendly, « 
enthusiastically friendly, •■ rolatiorahips. And it is un- 
fortunate i.iat. the hon. taember saua^u nave introduced this 
material, conveying the impression that this was material 
delivered at Canada House. Ho vory frankly explained how ha 
got iz. The fact is that nor.a of that has been handed out 
sinee October 30th last. 

♦n?. T.!TLLARD: T sMst only nake this known to the House, 
then, tnat tnxs was pict:ea up by an hon. msaoer of this Mcuse 
and handed to me while he was on leove, while I w«a in Londoa, 
and It was picked up on the reading table in Ontario House- 



- 1156- - 


MR. DRIVt I do not want to qutstlon that, and I vlU 

not Interrupt again. It la only beoausa I do not want anj 

mlsxuideratandlng about this, and I think perhapa It will ba 

falrar to both aldaa, bacauaa of tha falmaaa with whloh tha 

hon. mambar haa dealt with this aubjeet, that I aay that Z 

In no way offer any apologies for extremely enthusiastic 

statements about Ontario. I was not awara/thla oatarlal, 

which had been prepared by an organization over there, but 

there will be mlstaices, I presuina, with the good thinga 

. which are done, and our job, no matter who Is raaponalbla, la 

to see that as few mistakes occur as possible. I, ngraalf, 

faal that there Is no occasion to go beyond a perfectly 

proper statement of what the situation is here, because that. 

In itself, tells en ample story. 

And becasue of that concern, I cabled to ascertain 
If theae were still being circulated, whan thla waa raiaad 
here, and I received a cable only yesterday stating that 
they had not been distributed since October 30th. 

And, again, I want to be coo^letely faiir to awary- 
one, so I say It la poaslbla there msQr hava baan an odd ona 
left aroxind, as there Is with all material, but I feel, f: 
the cable I have received, that circulation, except for 
accidental one whloh might be amongst tha papara there, waa 
effectively discontinued aa of that date. 

MR. UILLARD: And I want to azpraaa ay appreciation 
of the fact that this kind of thing haa baan dlaoontlnuad, 
because I think It la high time that thinga ihlch might ba 
considered misleading, or ml^t aialaad, ahould ba dlaoon- 
tlnuad, and I am glad to learn from t2ie hon. I'riaa Kiniatar 
that It haa bean dona. 

May I also aay that I aai wholabaartadly in agraamant 



, JbB8 

Q ii.\ 

- 1157 - 5-15-45, 

Mr. uuiard. 

with eTorythlog that promotes the beet intereato of Ontario 
and Canada, and I heartily aubscrlba to any atataaent that 
aoeoopllahat that end, but I do think they ou^t to ba in 
their proper setting, and 1 hope that Major Araatrong taas 
dispoaed of those which wore Ijring around when I waa told 
these were picked up. 

If that is true, Mr. Prima Mlnlstar, - and I be 11 are 
it is, - I want to bring Just one mora doeunant to yoxir atten- 
tion, and I hope you will send another cable; because this is 
dated November seth, and it was picked up in, and has the 
stamp of, Ontario House on the oomor, and it is the Ontario 
News Bulletin of the Ontario Progressiva-Conserratlwa Haad-* 
quarters, published in Toronto, here, at 85 Richmond Straat. 

MR. DRIV: You know they get the "Daily Star**, as 

MR. MILLAHD: I Just want to read it, because of tba 
question raised of the relationship between Ontario House and 
Cemada House. As the hon. Prima Minister explained to thta 
House last year, they are only one block and a half apart, 
and my impression was that there is a keen desire on the part 
of the Hif^ Commissioner and the AP:ent General to work to- 
gether, but I want to suggest to tne hon. caaooors of this xiousa 
that with this kind of inflo&mable material, it is rery 
diffioxilt to establish cooperative relationship between these 
two reprasentatives of Canada and Ontario. 

Here are Just one or two small items froa thia 
parti ealar paper: 

"The happenings in Ottawa during the past few 
weeks have made for unrest throughout the Doainion, 
and have arrayed the people into two oaiq>s, with 
resulting bitterness at opinion." 

"That is a reprint froa the*Renfrew Marcury*. " 

AnA than thia: 

"Prime Minister King, Canada *s artful dodger, 


• 13f8 - 3-13-46. 

cajoled General Uoriaughton into taking 0T«r tba 
Defenoe Portfolio. In doing thla, ha oada an 
aboolnabla attempt to oq^ltaliza on UoNaugbton't 
popularity with the ovoraeaa soldlera. Uclteighton 
presents such a sorry picture, pla]rlng cheap 
politics to Mackenzie King's tune, that It would 
be folly to discuss him further." 

That is from the *Llmonte Gazette" 

Then there Is this choice bit, which, of course, 

strikes the reader's eye. It is as fnlJmi: 

"In the course of a recent radio address » E. B. 
Jolliffa, Leader of the CC7 Party for Ontario, took 
Premier Drew to task for quarrelling with Ottawa 
over family allowances, when, he Aeclared, we should 
all be bending every effort and erery thought to the 
war effort, itself. Tills is rather good, ccoing froB 
the Leader of a Party which has bean deToting its war- 
time energies chiefly to playing politics, fcoenting 
discontent, and atteropting to set up in Canada a 
system of state socialism, under which we would losa 
the very freedom that our men are flighting to preserra, 
and under which Canadians would be rsgimonted on « 
scale that would make wartime regulations and reatrie- 
tions seam like a picnic* 

That is from the "Simcoa Reforiser". 

My quarrel with that, Mr. Prime Minister and hon. 
members of this House, la ixiat x think it is taking an undue 
advantage of the facilities provided by Ontario House to put 
forth Party propaganda. 

iih, DREW: Mr. Speaker, that should be corrected ixir* 
mediately, and I regret that I cannot apply the Mas TBSwrks 
to this presentation that I did to an earlier one. Tf the 
hon. mambar, nimsair, od tamed zuat itob tho reading taojj^p hm 
knows perfectly wall that material from hara, or all colours 
and points of views, is distributed over there, also bearing 
the Agant General stamp, a:ia t;ie aoac &taaj) as i.:iat. in fa«t» 
if anything is sent frcoi hare, it is put on the tabla, and you 
will find the most unreliable newsparAr in North Aasrioa, "Tba 
Toronto Daily Star," on that sana table. 

UR. JOLUFFX: fill you find the^Ontario Liberal" and 
theTjew Coruiun wealth" on that table? 


- 1159 - S-13-45 

MR. OBIW: I aa p«rf«otl/ 8ur«, if 70a wttnt to a«nd 
tham on, th«y will ba thsra. As a niattar of fact. i)ap«ra 
go fron tMf axid are on ttia taole toaro, aoa you oaa gat a 
wida aasortaoant of oplnlona frooi ttia prasaotatlon of tha 
facta frai the varloua papars. It Is not thara to ba dia- 
tributad, IL 18 part of tba aatarlal piacad tbara so tliat 
paopla nay go la and raad, aod, In Icaaplag with what tiM 
boit. aioiiDer baa auggajtad , tba man orar ttera bava tha op- 
portunity to forn their oplnlona upon tha praaentatlon of 
the aatarlal bafora than* 

MH. JOLLIFFE: Uy queatlon waa not anawarad . 

MR. MILLARD: Mr. 3paalcar. this waa told to ?a«, - 
at ^aaat. I waa Inf armed whan this was handad to aa, - that 
thla waa not plokad up on the tabla whara tba nawapapara 

MR. lULLARO: Did you gat It yoursalf? 


SOME HON. rOMBiSRS: Oh, oh. 

MR. 3PSAKXB: Ordar. 

MR. MILLARD: I would lllce to Inform tha Bouaa and 
tha hon. Prima Mlolat ar that It waa banded to aa by tha hon. 
■aabar for filvardala (Mr. iflaaar) -- 

MR. VI?IAN: 3o what? 

9R. KLLARO: I do not think wa would want to Ivputa 
motlvaa to him. that ha was trying to alsraprasant anything. 
I am only quoting to tba houae what ha told aa about tha 
olroumatanoaa under which thla waa aaourad. 

He want In, and found, on tha aana table where thla 
propaganaa was found, - nut in the reading roon; not whara 
tha nawapapara wara, at all,- but thla ahaat waa there. I 
want to ba fair, and I am willing to admit, now that it la 

I t &%' 

tRBOi ?f» 


- U60 - 5-13-4S. 

quite nosslble that Ualor ArmBtrcxi^ does not \^nam thay wtr* 
tuere. It is quii* poasibi* ztxAt the o1%t]cm, «no war* 
down on the ground floor, had received thaae fron aana an- 
thuaioBtle conserTative, and put it on that particular 

MB. DREW: Let ua not gat thla on a wrong baala. 
What I said waa thia: you were referring, prerioualy, to 
saterial, vhich, of oourae, «aa, f irat of all, an article 
written by Beverley Baxter, (and I only hope he writaa 
about you, and you will find out how ouch raaponalblllty 
you will be able to aaauoa for what he attributes to you,) 
but it may be that in their mistaken enthuaiaaa whoever 
printed it turned out soiiia extra copies, aa they rathar 
likod their own product. 

The second one waa one IsaueA by Ontario Houaa. 
To that I have already referred. 

The other waa a publication printed here in Toronto 
and sent over there, and it waa picked up by an hon. namber 
who handed it to you, (and 1 want to make this quite clear, 
that over there there are papers of different politicca 
stamps, and Ontario House la available to make, in turn, 
arallabla to the troops, publications from tnia provinoa,) 
and I an fully In accord with the viewa of the hon. Bsabars 
that it ia wlae to have opinions exDreaaed which will 
indicate to the troopa the tnoughta tnat ore being oonTtysd, 
and any publication the hon. juo^bt wiahas to send owar, 
I am sure it will be placed thera. But no ant* la respoiw 
•Ible for handing It out. It is not material haadad out in 
Ontario Rouse; it is material aade available for people who 
go there to read. 

UR. UZLULRD: i:r. Spaaker, I do not want to oontinua 
the debate on this particular point, bo causa I do not think 


- 1101 - y^^ Millard. 

It If t]q>ortant enough, but vhat I •uggeatad to the hon. 
iMOibert of this Houaa was that the soldiers at the front, 
and, indeed, the soldiers in Great Britain, ought to be 
informed of the progranne and policies of the various 
political parties, but it should be written Jointly, in a 
joint manifesto, and sent to these people. I do not 
think that one party or parties who ax« knifing at other 
parties — in other words, what I am coming at is that 1 
do not think that we ought to be'Vashing our dirty linen" 
in England, for the prospect i-ve immigrants to read, and 
see about cur difficultjes ond get a one-sided picture 
of the situation. Let us make a Joint submission, whloh 
should be made for the proper dissemination of information, 
and I hope that Ontario House will not be used for any 
party paper of this kind, and that would apply if the CC7 
were in the Goyernnent, or the Liberals or anybody else. 
1 think it is a mistake to supply a party sheet 
of that kind. This is something different from the party 

Now, Just a few words in conclusion, Mr. Speaker* 
I said, a few minutes ago, that the soldiers are 
greatly confused, and 1 think they are honestly confuted, 
about the situation. I want to say to the hon. oembers of 
this House that I found our soldiers, even those in Great 
Britain, are totally unaware of what the issues ore in 
Canada, and they are not very optimistic. They do not know 
what they are coming home to. They have not got any con- 
crete plan placed before then, and the are reading, in dif- 
ferent periodicals and in different reports, such material 
as I am goin(', to present to the House new. (and I will tell 
you who said it after 1 read it,) is not x«asauring then* 
This says: 



- ^" - 3.13-45. 

Mr. lailard. 

**In short, thorofore, I •nTlMgB that period 
of th« post-war boom as on* In which pr irate 
enterprise will be given an opportunity, 
with inazimuB assistanoa from tha Govamnant^ 
to reoonstruot the Conadian busineas systaa^ 
as well as they ara able to do, during that 
short period of prosperity. 

"Such a period of prosperity will ooaa to an 
end In any case, and we mxst also reneobar 
that there oay not be a period of great 
prosperity, at all. ffe are ooupelled, there- 
fore, to look to the fact that there will 
inevitably be a post-war depression, either 
immediately after the war, or at the end of 
this brief period of prosperity." 

The person who made that statement was Dr. Cyril 
James, Chairman of the Government Coooittee on Reoonstruo- 
tion, in the Parliamentary Comal tteo's Hoport of 1948* 
And I say to the hon. oanbers of this House that that kind 
of information is not very reassuring to those bo3ri froa 
the front lines, and in these leave centrea, when it is 
made available to them. 

I wcmt to draw the attention of the hon. Uinistar of 
Development and Planning {Ur, Porter) to sooe remarks that 
he made, becai'se I believe that these remarks do not neat 
the situation, inasmuch as they do not give any aasuranoa 
to those ohaps that What they are fighting for is going to ba 
aeconDllshed when the war is over. And i refer to ths ra- 
oariui made by the hon. Dana Porter, vnen he was speaking at 
the Huronla banquet, their closing dinner, at their annual 
oneting at TTasaga Beech, and rooorted in the '*l£ldland Free 
Press", September 13, 1944* upon reading tnese remarks I 
was rather suipriaad at ay good friend, the hon. Minister, 
maklnc; such a statement, and I just want to refer book to the 
statement txiat na made, so that the otaer hon. members of tha 
House will understand why I am bringing this question up. 





- 1163 - 3-13-45. 

ICr. MlUard. 

b«oaus« I think It doea create, In the minds of tho«« aoldlera, 

an unoerta&nty oa to what la going to take place when the war 

la over, and I want to advise the hon. mambera of tha Houae 

tnat that ia a bad situation. These people want socaething oon- 

orete and definite to hang onto, and I vvxt you to liaten to 

the few worda of the hon. Mlniater: 

"We aay look forward to the future with aoae 
real meaaure of confidence, and hope for more aecurity 
than we haye ever known In the paat," amid the apeaker, 

in conclusion. 

Mom, 1 want you to aee how the worda which precede that 
are Inoona latent with that statement and that part that ia ex- 
tended at the end of the remark; 

"He was not at all conTlnoed that the early 
post-war yeara will be those in tdilch public worka 
will be necessary. These may actually have to be 
delayed, because of the ahortage. 

"It seems to me," said Mr. Porter, "that dur- 
ing the first few yeara there will be a great demand 
for a great variety of gooda of all klnda, and that 
there will be no need for the Government to enter the 
labour market, 

"There la some sort of a aenaible, middle 
road which cem be followed, which takea into account 
tho experience of the paat and approachea the prob- 
lem both with boldneaa and aooe regard for the tax- 
payers. AS I look at the whole province, I eee many 
worka of developtnent which offer great proalae. To- 
day, on the way up, I have aeon aonethlng of reforea- 
tation, and I am sure that with enterpriae a great 
deal of employment may bo created in thia direction. ■ 

That la public worka, and that will require the oovem- 
ment*a going into the labour market. 

HON. DANA H. POROSB (Mlniater of Planning and Develop- 
ment): Do you diaagrae with thatT 

MR. MILLARD: not at all. But it roea on: 

"ISiere was a vast amount of work to be done in 
the extenaion of the northam front iara, and if thia 
waa carried out according to plan, it would lay o 
foxmdatlon for opportxuiity, and make it poaaible for 
men to aettle on and develop landa, ao aa to give thmt 
aecurity and prosperity." 




,ai9JtMoE eac: 

1SW edi it; '■'' 



-aiBTTOO- arid" e*: 

; jI'u 

3 sjfoio 

*i ■ t- .-» f 






- 1164 - 3-13-45. 

Ur. UlUard. 

Now, !'r. STiflakar. T hara Tarv little fault to find 

witii those rooariwa, L^t i voader why ti.e Uon. Ulnlst«r had 

to spoil it by adding ttese rooorks, in the middle of hit 


**1 do not believe there is any final solution 
for the problem of uneiqjIoyiaeD t and depression." 

UR. GZGRSE H. UTTCHBLL (York North): Thay haTS not 
got it. 

UR. SPBiESR: Order. 

UR. UILLARD: It seems to nm, Ux. Speaker, that it 
is small hope and small comfort to say to our soldiers OTsr- 
seas, and to the people of this provinoe, that there is no 
solution to this yery grave problem ohich confronted us up 
until 1942. 

Now, Ur. Speaker, I will say Just one word, and that 
is that the soldiers are confused, and thoy arc confused with 
the kind of little bita of news they are getting, and bits of 
statements which are made. 

Now, I want to refer to what one of the hon. oaiAtara 
of ihe House is repoi*tod to have said, and vinless it is asked, 
I will not state who tnat hon. necber is. xie was speaking to 
a meeting here in Toronto of the Ontario Assooiation of Raal 
Xstate Boards, in convention last ni^t, (this was taken frca 
the '*Globe and Uail** of December 6, 1943, ) ana i want you to 
hear what an hon. member of this House said: 

"He praloed tne eoououio system of Auatmlia 
and New Zealand, but while an admirer of the 
Hussian people and their war effbrt, believed 
that in their seal to correct an existing 
evil, they over-reached themselves beoamsa 
they *taad uelther the brains nor tne exper- 
ience to run a government, as millions 
starved to death*". 

- 1165 - 3-13-46. 

That «B8 made by «n hon. medbar of this Rou0«. 

UON. UMiA a. i'ORTER ( Uizusi«r of x'la^nlng and DaTtlop- 
ownt) : It fraa aot oa. 

UR. ; TIIAPD: No, and not tba apaalcar who preeadad ■• 
In tha dabata, vbo told ua «a ahould forgat all thaaa ala- 
takaa. I aa not trying to bring up thlnga vhloli wara aald 
long ago, nor daal ^n veraonn'^ *, but I am only anphaalz- 
Ing tha point that theae idnda of statenienta ara doing ham 
aaongat our foroaa, and doing hax*m anumgat tha paopla in oraat 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBAR (Mlnlstar of tfunioipal ^aira): 
I think the hon^ mexabara ahouid nania tha aan, bacauaa that it 
▼ery damaging. I hope I never oads a atatement of that nature. 

MR. miJ.AHD ; It waa not you. 

HR. PORTER: It waa not ae; who waa it? 

MR. VIVIIN: Who ia thia follow? 

UR. SPSAKER: I Will ask the hon. taeoiber to allow the 
member for York Weat (l£r. Ulllard} to make hia preaantatlona, 
and to stop Interrupting, or I will have to ezerciae ay author- 
ity. I ask that It be stopped at onoa, pleaaa. 

tIR. MILLARD: If the hon. neoibers are really anzioua 
to know, it waa my GOod friend, the hon. maubor for Elgin (Mr. 
Hapbxmi). And I may say that it waa made at tha and of tha 
evening, too. 

But I would Ilka to alao refer to Juat ona thing that 
I believe ia also beneath the dignity of thia House, and banaath 
the dignity of thia Government, and wbloh laada to oonfualon in 
the mlnAa of the soldiers, the man overseas, who, as I have atat- 
ad before, are doing a nagnif leant job under very grisi and 
aerious oireuostanoes, and they ara rlaklng their all, and thia 
kind of thing I an going to quote now aeeas, aa far aa l can 





- U66 - 3-13-45. 

Lir. Uillard. 

l«am from talking to thesi very trlHlng *iul piffling, and 
we should aot be naeting our tin* in thla Legislature die- 
cussing It. Uaybe I should not even take the tiae to read 
it, but I vaiit the hon. aecbers of t.ixs !iouse to rBoembor 
this in the future. The aan who was apoaking said: 

"Holders of little patronage Jobs, oil oTor tha 
province, are beiug displaced by the Drexr Covornnent, 
but not a single civil servnr^ -: been disnlssed, 
except one for CQx;t8e, since . agresslie-Consexnra- 

tlve Government took office laat auxner." 

Do youaant mo to tell who that vas? 

MR. DUtfflAR: Go aheaa ana naoe ola. That is the great- 
est publicity I ever had in ay life. 

AN HON. MBICKR: And the ff?«ateat yra Trll5 ever have. 

UR.. mn.ARD; "Thj'j was zao bvuteoem or uon. George 
H. Dunbar, Ontario' L'ijtister of Municipal Affairs, 
laat ni^lit 

'*Aa for lay own department, no one can dictate to 
■a, llr. Dunbar told the Kent County Progressire 
Conservatives. 7here little patronage Jobs were con- 
cerned, he said he would discharge or replace as he 
saw fit. 'You^' he told the Progressive Conservatives, 
are now on the inside, looking out. «re will toll Ur, 
Jolliffe, the Ontario CC7 Leader, we're here and 
you're there. ••• 

That was uade by the hon. Ur. Dunbar, speaking to tha 
Kent County ProgresslTC Conservatives. 

SOME HON. ISUBSRS: Shane, shana. 

IbR. DUNBAR: Ur. Speaker, Just let me answar that. Too 
did not read it all. Uay I reply as to why I aaid that? It 
waa beoause it waa thrown acroaa the Houaa at aa for aix years 
by the hon. member for Elgin {Ur, Hepbxim), "7ou arethara, and 
we are hero,** and I repeated It. 

UR. MILLARD: Ur. Speaker, I did not intend, actually, 
to drag any sxE^vietona out of the oloaet, but now that the con- 
feaaion has been mada, I am aatiafled to let it go at that. 

I want to conclude aj remarks with Juat a abort resuma 





- U67 - 5-13-45. 

ICr. lailord. 

of my ylslt to the House of Corxion« at lestmlnstar, beo«ut« 
I do beller* that I dlsooTored aomethlng whloh aasiated th« 
British people In those long, dark days frcm 1989. 

(Page No. U66 follows.) 

- van - 


oxftf isJaisaB do 

- U68 - 3-15-4S 

Mr. HllUrd 

I think that tho British Houat of Cosnnona la 
really damocraey In action. I bad the prlTllago and 
distinction, almost, of sitting in the parllaaentary 
gailary of the Dominion and listening to Mr. Churchill 
Bake his report on the Yalta Conference , when ha oasa 
back to Great Britain. 

And, Mr. Speaker, I was greatly Impressed both 
with the speaker and the procedure of the British House of 
Oomnons, and I must tell you, sir, that I am afraid if you 
vere in the British Rouse of Conaona you would oartalnly 
die of heart failure at some of the carryings on over there, 

MR. 3PEAEER: I am pretty stout heerted. 

MR. MILULRD: But I want to refer to soaathli^ 
that I am sure the hon. Prime Minister has often witnessed, 
aa well as other hon. members who have attended the Houaa 
at Westminster, including the hon. members of the Opp^al- 
tlon — that is, the question period. 

I belieYe. that the question period Is one of tha 
greatest democratic institutions and prooaaaea that haa 
ever been devised, and I believe It would be a good thing 
if the select ooounlttee of this Rouse ahould atudy the 
question of the parliamentary aystam uaad In the question 
period In Great Britain. I nay take a word to azplAla 
how it operates. 

The members of the House of Conaions who wlah to 
aak questions, put them In writing on the Order Paper, 
and within two days, unless it is a complicated setter, 
which requires research and Informatlonand data, the 
answer is given by the minister concerned two daya 
follwffihg the filing of the question on the Order Paper. 
The questions appear In typed form. I have copies of 
tlMB here. On the day which I attended parllaaent — 


bee £ 
"it bi 

, u'; 


er.ifo'' j£ 9Tefl oriw r 


o;J rieiw oriiv r 

eysib ow# li«rtteoxioo lea's inlni an s 

- 1169 - >i>45 

Ur. HlUftrd 

or one of tba days — there were in ail, I believe, s< 

seventy- four queations. Nov, obvioualy, they oannot all 

be anaeered in the firat hour, vhloh ia the tine aet apart 

for the anawering of queatlona. But putting the queatiooa on 

the Order Paper savea time, and if there la a queation aaked 

of the lilniater of Town and Country Planning, for inatanoe -- 

or of any of the varioua ministers — he gets up and 

gives the answer, and when the hour is concluded then the 

balance of the answers are put in the Order Paper, and you 

have them In Hansard the next day. 

But I want to refer particularly to the aupplemen- 

tary questions which are asked. You have the right, under 

the procedure there, to ask a supplementary question to the 

question which you have asked, and if you are/satisfied, 

kr. Speaker,'- and Ur. Speaker uses his discretion aa to 

when he feels that enough supplementary queationa have 

been asked — ydu* can move your question to the adjoura- 

Bent — the adjourning hour during war time being froa 

alz to aix-thirty, and in about ten aaya or two weeks, 

depending on the number of questions that preceded it, 

the Minister and the member eaking the queation stage a 

fifteen-minute debate on the question, if it ia conaldersd 

lapertant enough to carry to that particular tias. In 

otter words, there ia a abort debate on the matter whieh 

tasa been reiaed in queetion fonn. 

The point I went to BSke to the hon. aeabsrs 

of this Houae ia thia; that ksepa the Britiah parliaasnt 

democratic; that keepa the Miniatera directly raaponaible 

ts the psopls, through their elected repreaentatlTea. If 

s poatBta or a peraon girlng sobs kind of civil aerrlos in 

Northern Scotland Bate a a Biatake, or ia buraeuorstlo in 

hia apprsaeh to tbs public, then inwdlstely he osn ezpeot 

- Qdll - 


.-silsd I 


8 " e ^ 

i)sj< Bi-vae aeqa*! "r«fc"' 

-wene 9iii to ^ 
• . yb5 txsrr »rit trrneflsH nt ffl»n . 
-nf5 Li&lU'^ 



fi 93eci 

(■ '. . 

r snJt5Ja/p ill edi^ 


dolriw letf^J-Bci ... 10 siadob ttoffe est ©iwd* «bj[)iow lad^o 

lym. ^H . . '- ^-i-i V ,-*«<■ ■-* ^ ri/-f -J O ff 

nt »olVT«e iivjto lo batA s»moe snlvlg noeieq e » 

-— ^^^.,. ■■' ud ei io , c in e eeoiflia ftael*'^"^ ^-.-^-,'+^,. - 

Jsseqxf- .+aJt5©aBai flad;^ ^oiiduq ad? oi^ aosoiqqa ein 

- 1170 - 3-13-46 

Mr. milArd 

that tlie BMBbtr for that particular ridlof vlll b« con- 
tacted and placa the matter on the quaatlon paper. Then 
the Ulnleter has to go right back down tba line and find 
out what occurred, and why It occurred, and take tha 
necessary action to aee that It does not occur again. 

(Page 1171 follows) 


- 1171 - 3-1S-46 

kr. UllUrd. 

I saw that the Purllament of Great Britain, in spite of 
lt» si^e, In »pite of the hundreds of asnbers It has, 
in spite of the difficulties It has gone through, it 
has Liaintalned close contact with the people and is res- 
ponsible to the people at all times through the alnlstery 
of iho various aepartaents and 1 do highly reonmend 
and suggest to the Hon. Members of tho Uouse and, parti- 
cularly to the government, that conaideration be given to, 
ooumentlng on our rules of procedure an& conduct of thl* 
Uouae, 80 that a similar system may be followed her*. I 
think it would bring very great results to us all and 1 
believe it would help to reestablish the government to 
the cuufidence of the people that it was their instrument 
and responsive to them at all times. 

One last word in conclusion, I want to express 
my own personal appreciation co ine Juapire Parliaxoentary 
Association. 1 suppose every Hon. Uealber of this House 
realizes they are a member of that Association of vnich th« 
Cltrk of this House is the local secretary. i was aole 
through Sir Howard i>*jiigreville and a letter of intro- 
■^^^iioa to vhe assistant secretary, ^ir Oroaaond nhields, 
to receive every attention and courtesy that couid be poss- 
ibly given to ms. I attended the sessions of Parliaaent and 
watched the debate and the Bouse of Lords. I feel that 
the Parliamentary Ausociation can be a great unifying influ- 
ence in the British Cosaaonwealth and in the British Impire 
and I, therefore, suggest that every Hon. Uember of this 
House give more attention to the ParllameAtary Assoelatlua. 
1 believe it can be a great instrument axkd may I soi^gest, 
also, kr. :>peakBry that the government, the Hon. Prlae l&inis- 
ter (Ur. Drew) ascertain the Tlews of this Bouse and if faT- 
ourable, laake representations to the Priae lUnlater of Great 






- 1172 - 3-13-48 

kr. klll«rd. 

britaln who Is now deciding tbe form and set-up of the 
new House of Cozsmons that is being restored aftor the 
oomblngs of 1941, 1 belieye. 1 shouia tniox toui me 
iiiembera of Parliament anywhere within the Conaonwealth 
ought to be in a position to attend the Rouses of Pnrlia- 
nant in any oiher part or the Coonoawealth ana, wnile 
we would not expect to participate or sit In the mSBbers* 
benchos, because we would not be elected representatlTes^ 
wnere we uiight ^e yi siting, but 1 do suggest some aoooomo- 
datlun, some special gallery near the debates and near the 
level of the liembers attending might be arranged. I think 
if some representation was made to the Prin« Uinlster 
through the Parliamentary Association that consideration 
at this time might be given to such an arrangenent in the 
British House of Comnons. 

1 do want to conclude by saying 1 have found re- 
cently and I found in attending at the lor Id Labour Con- 
ference the Parliamentary Association is rendering another 
great serTioe; they have obscrTers attending the Congress 
in the United oiates studying the Congressional Hecord, 
•onHirlzing Congressional speeches in the ^nate, and the 
House of Representatives and a suimary of those speeches 
are available to all Biembers of the Parliamentury ASSooiaticB.. 
I do think, Mro Speaker, we would be able to serve our 
constituents and the Province and the country Jast e little 
oetter if, txirougn this ^urliomentary Association, we could 
have clostf oomaunication with the Par llaDon tar lane In other 
parts of the Comionwealth and with the Congress of the United 

I have taken longer than 1 expected, but I hope I 
have not unduly prolonged the debate and 1 thank the Han. 
UaiDbers for their close attention to what 1 have said* 




- UTS - 3-13^5 

Mil. THCM48 IXJFr(bruc»): Mr. Spmkn, in rislag 
to make my OMll contribution to tnis dab«t«, I 4o ao 
because of tbe deep sexxAe or respoasibixity I feel to 
ihe people of bruoe County as their selected representative 
In this Legislature. Since ay election, Z bave en- 
aauvoored to honestly and sincerely serve all the electors 
of my constituency, regardless of their political beliefs 
and affiliations. In nhut I have to say to-nlgtit, I be- 
lieve I will be olaolng before you the views of all of thea. 

First of all, llr. Speaker, I would like to join 
with the others who have expressed congratulations to thm 
■over ana seconder of the address in reply to the Speech 
from the Throne, It is a serious responsibility for any 
Hon. JHenber to have the privilege of opening so important 
a debate. They performed their allotted tusks with dis- 
tinction in the well-established and considered speeches 
which they delivered. They opened the debate on a high 
plane and it is my hope that this standard will be maintained, 
not only in this debate but through all the proceedings of 
the House during this Sessiom* 

Speaking as the representative of Bruce County, 
I speak with some assurance, because of my knowledfte of the 
contrioutions vnicn Bruce County is making to tae weifaxa 
ana well being of the Province of Ontario. There are otiier 
sections of the Province with greater and xoora concentrated 
populations, but in proportion to its area, its paopie and 
its locution, I think that Bruce County is contributing to 
the Provincial Treasury of Ontario in revenue a sum which la 
higher than the averaga. as a County with great natural 
attractions in scenlo beauty and reaources of gama and flA, 
it has for many yeara attracted thooaaads of tourists 




• 1174 • 5» 15*45 

Mr. Dttff . 

to Its nan/ reaort centres. Through thea, large rer- 
onaes have been oontrlbuted In gasoline tax rerenues, 
liquor revennes, game and fishery licenses, to i&entlon 
only a few of the sources of revenue froic Bruoe Countj 
which have enriched the Provincial Treasury to an extent 
out of proportion to the anounts whioh hare been sp«nt 
from the Provincial Treasury In the developnant of the 
resources and requirements of the County, 

I have mentioned thin in passing, Ur. Speaker, 
because I feel it has soofS bearing on vhat I now propoaa 
to say. It is true that riany lines of developaent have 
been suspended during the years of the war and with our 
first objective the winning of victory, it Is only nat- 
utBl that some of the things which ar» ro icuch needed have 
to be aeld in abeyance. But the aay is coEUng ever 
closer when the war will be over and it will be posslbla 
ones again to devote our money and our energies to the 
pursuit of peace, to the aevelopioent of those resources 
which are needed to promote the prosperity, contentment 
and comfort of oil the people of this Province and of my 
own County. 

Looking forward to the postwar period, so far as 
Bruce County ic concerned, -<- and I thlnic this applies to 
other sections of the Province as well,— one of our graat- 
est possibilities for profitable trading with our neighbours 
to the south, lies in the expaasion aad oevelopnent of our 
tourist industry. Bruce county, with its long expansa of 
beautiful shore Una, its many fine tourist resorts and its 
resources of fish and gt^ma, la a fertile field for the oul- 
tivation of faollitlas which are needed to oopa with the 
growth of tKurlst trade which Is sure to cone whos restriotiai.s 
on uuvexj.j.iig uru ranored* Ko section of the Prorrince can 

- 1170 - 5-13-46 

Offer greater naturul attract Ioua to the tourlat, but 
In oruer to liuve them cuming baolc year after y^r wt aost 
offer tbem more than good roada and fine scenery. ■• 
must develop facllltlea and aooomnodatlon for then at 
locatlona where these will be appreciated and naoaasary, 
and In ao doing provide a meana of livelihood for tha 
increased nuiuurjra of our pqupla* 

One of the problems to be faced in the imciediate 
postwar period, and one about nhlch we hear a great deal 
in this House and outsiae, i:^ t .a.. loxning our men in 

the armed forces to useful ea^loyment when they ooaa back h(ma. 
In what I hqve to say I would lik-a to suggest several con- 
structive sources for their oaployment, and in developing 
tourist resorts and facilities, I think we have one of tha 
most promising of these, j^rtioularly for the man who want 
amtxy from our own section cf the Province and want to 
settle down there on their return. 1 would like to suggest 
to the Minister of Planning and Development that in any 
proposals for the setting up of touriat trade facilities, ha 
give serious consideration to reserving the operation of ttaeaa 
solely for those who will be ooolng oucn. from the axaaA foroaa. 

The county of Bruce, like so aany others, 14r. 3paaker, 
is a rural county. It has a background of good agriculture, 
but a sound lu^ax cowaujaoj consists of more than faraa. 
To be sound, and to provide the best kind of living for farm 
people. It nust have well-established and prosperous Tillagaa 
aau cuaaj.1 towns. No matter what the attrautiuna of tha large 
citiea aay be, it ia my belief that the bast kind of liTine 
is th^t which is found in a busy rural village in the centre 
of a weii-balanced (%ricuitural area. .ut, in or&er to 
maintain that balunce, it is necessary to pay more attention 
to the development of the towns and villages. Thay 


- U76 - 5-13-46 

Ik*. Imff. 

cannot be expected to prosper oereiy aa tbe centre of 
rural areas. They need induatrles whlob will provide 
SBployuent for their people, and In the yearQ after th« 
war, one of the outstanding neaas of our province aiil 
be the uevelopiuont of toese villages and towns by the de- 
centralization of i nduatry. 

It is cooiiauu knowledge thut the great industrial 
effort which Grout Britain has naae in the production cC 
Bunltions and armaments of war was made possible by just 
such a decentralization of industry, by going out into the 
small oozamunities and establishing industries in the quiet 
rural ureas. That is the type of progranaie vhieh is needed 
for Ontario in the postwar yeeurs, and it ia a progranM 
peculiarly adapted to the needa of Bruce County. There is 
a great field for the development of industries in the small 
centres in the processing of farm products. It does not 
seem economical to me to transport these fsxn products 
to the City of Toronto, to have th«a processed there in 
ureus of high property costs, high wages and high living 
costs. It is economicully sound to suggest that the oloaor 
theae farm proaucts are proceusea to the polht of their 
production, the uore economically they can be processed 
and the uore money will bo returned to the original pro- 
aucers on the farms* 



- 1177 - »-13-46 

■r. Duff 

m. KZLLiRD: If I nay ask tbe hon. Beabar a 
quaatloh, doas he feel that the sane rule applies to all 
farm products? 

MR. DUFF: It applias to all the products of 
Bruce County, and I think to the products of other eountlea 

IIR. UILLABD: The point I want specifically daalt 
with -- 

MR. SPEAKKR: The hon. member nay ask a question 
with permission out ne canned ioaJce an arguoent. 

MR. UILLARD: I wanted to ask if the hon. anbar 
feels that meat packlnt^, for instanae, can he done as 
cheaply on a local basis as it can be done m a caatralizad 
plant • 

UR. DUFF: I have tried to make plain to the 
House and to the hon. member what I was talking about. I 
was speaking of Bruce county. 

These processing plants, such as creameries, 
cheese factories, dehydration plants, canning factories 
and even meat packing plants, can be developed to build 
up the towns and villages close to the fama, and to in- 
crease the returns to the farmers for their products. And 
by the development of such industries It will be posaibla 
to open up another source of employment for our ratumiag 
war veterans. 

This leads me naturally to another type of 
development which is required in Bruce county. Before 
suoh Industries can be established suoosssfully, it Is 
vital that they muat have electric power at ratea which 
are oompsrable to those available to industry in the larga 
eentres of the province closer to the source of hydro- 
electric power. At present, our towns and vlllsgaa are 

- 1178 - 9-l>46 

Mr. Doff 

suffering from the inaqualltlas in ratas for aladtrlclty. 
Why snouid the municipaiitlea in Bruoa county nara to 
pay |3Q a horaap<)«ar for powar ahlla oomounitlaa naarar 
to Niagara Fa 11a pay only about $20 ner horsepowart 
The power resouroea of the province are xu^ property 
of all its paopla , and should b« evallabla to all of 
tham on aqunl tArma. In Bruce Cousty, «a hare a splandld 
aource of cheap power right ut the door of our own paopla » 
but it haa not bean developed. On the Sau^ean river 
there la a potential aouree of 10 000 hcraepowar, whleh» 
aeeordlng to the figures of the liydro-Ilartrlc Power Cob- 
mission, can be developed at a cost of $20 per horaepover* 
That power should ba developad and made aTallable to 
the towna and Tillages in Bruoa eoumty and ttaa aurrouBdlng 
diatrlot for the uae of their present and future induatriaa, 
aa well as for the extension of ehaap hydro power to all 
the farms now without power throughout that area of the 
province. That la one way In whleh power in our aroa 
tan ba oheapanad and in which further aaana of aaployaant 
for war veterans can ba provided. 3o I would ask that 

the Hydro-Ileetric Power CoaBlaalon^ in planning for poat- 
war development, give serious eonsldaration to the posai- 
bllitlea of utilizing the power resouroaa of the Saugaan 

Tbla brlnga ma to another subjeot of trwaaadous 
Importance in post-war development, that of raforaatatlon 
and conaarvation of our land reaoureaa* Thla Is a aubjeot 
which la more vital to tbe county I repreaant than to any 
other country in tba province of (tetarlo. In our county 

wa have large areas of land whleh have been cut over, but 
which are not suitauxo for agnc^bura. Thay have no 
productive value. 4a a result of tne cutting down of 


CG03 - 1179 - 3-13-45 

Ut. Duff 

far too much of the original tlrabar in tha eountj, tbar* 
la a gr«at lack of molatura. fella are going dry la 
areaa which fomerly had a plentiful water supply. 
Streams which years ago bad enough water for the opera- 
tion of grist milla and aaw Bllla are now practically dry. 
▲11 of this Is due to the disappearance of foreat ooTar 
from too much of our land, and if we are to iMintaln a 
permanent agriculture, in Bruce county, indeed, in tha 
province aa a whole, this altuation muat ba raaadled. 

This remedy can never be applied, Mr. Speaker, 
unless it becoBBs a definite matter of state policy and 
atate support financially. Acoordine to figurea pro- 
duced by the Department of Landa and Forests, there are 
in Bruce County 280,000 acres of land that should ba 
reforested. Obvioualy, that is a task far beyond tba 
scope of the municipalities of the IndlTtdual faraera. 
It represents a situation which can only be remedied by 
operationa on suclfa aoale that the province la tha only 
agency which can undertake then. What I would au^geat 
for the consideration of the government la that plana ba 
developed for the province taking over these large traota 
of land, ref creating thea and fanoing the* In, ao that 
the foresta will be preserved for posterity and make tha 
greateat poaaible contribution to tha mainteoaaoa of a^l- 

▲part from tha magnitude of this project, tharw 
la alao tha fact tmit waen any project xa uoaartaKaa from 
whiohthe benefita go to the whole of aoclety, tha atata 
ahould bear the flnancitil burden. The famara in thia 
area win not, in tnair lifetiaa, reap tne oeneflta of 
reforestation. But there will aoerue to tha at«ta, in tiae, 
large revenues from the foresta thua created, and tha atata 


- 1180 - 3-15-4B 

Mr. Duff 

should there foro undertake the task of reforestation on 
a large seale. BerSt again, la a project vhleh has 
tremaDdous poasiblllties for the employBent of the Ban 
of the armed forces for manj years to cone, in work that 
vlll be congenial to them, and will give them the oppor- 
tunity of making their mental readjustments In vholeaoaa, 
outdoor emplojrment. 

During the laat year «e hav» h«ard a ^eat deal 
about the government taking oTer tbe ^^ . .u Stoekytrds at 
Toronto. So far, however, this has not baen of any 
benefit to the farmers. The marketing ivestock haa 

gone on Just aa before, through the drovtiru and ocnmiaalon 
men, and the farmers are paying Just the aana ohargas aa thay 
have always done. I have no fault tc : with the ocb- 

mlsslon men on the stockyards. They have their business 
to do, and I think they are doing a good and honest Job. 
But it is only natural that they ahould give their prefer- 
ence In attention to the farmara who are their ateady 
customers, who are shipping every week or so, and to pay 
less attention to the stock of farmers who ahlo only onca 
or twice a year. I have aeen that happen on tne stodc- 
yards, in caaea where the ateady custoaars* oattla wara 
given priority and sold first before any attemnt vaa made 
to deal with the anlmala from toe ooousiooajk snippers. That 
is perhaps only natural, but I would like to auggaat , Mr. 
Speaker, that the new Ontario Storkyardfi Boord could render 
a valuable surviee oy ie ting up its oka alley* : cum 
the stock of the oooa?i( va . shlppara and the Indlvldua. 
famars, so thst tfeV ' I be given Just as fair a bree< on 
the market as thost^ t i ping regularly t^ ''onalaalou ho-nea. 

Wa have lal ■ lard a great d^al about %i torts to 
Improv*: the qualilly i^ ir Ontario livr !»took, and partl3Ularly 


- 1181 - *-l>45 

Mr. Duff 

our eattla. It is my opinion, Mr. Speaker, and thara ara 
■any who agraa with ma, th'. t It Is uaolass to try to aacura 
•ny genarai laproTofflant in iiva stuoK quQiiiy until a propar 
premiua for quality la paaaad right back to tha producar. 
Aa Batters ara now, tha producer of good quality aattla la 
panallzod baoausa of the large axcunt of poor grade cattle 
coming on the market. The ocasunar cuat know irtiat ha la 
buying, and when he doea he will pay a premium for the 
beat quality, '«nd that premium must be reflected in ahat 
the producer reoeiyea for hla anlaala. The only way in 
vhioh that dan be done ao auceeaafully with hoga. The 
producer will never receive the full premium from quality 
cattle until it has been determined what la inaide the 
hide of the animal, and until there la a much greatar 
differential in price between top quality beef anlaala 
and thoae of poorer grade, which ere after all only the 
by-producta of tha dairy industry. 

I hare mentioned the grading of hoga. It la my 
belief that aome conaideratlon ahould be given to the aattar 
of weight a in hog grading, and t:^;. i.he bonua ahould be paid 
on the basia of the weights moat auitabla for producing aldaa 
of bacon auitabla for the British market. If we ere to 

■aintaln any part of that British market after tha war, 
there will baTe to be a till more improvemint in our boga. 
At preaant we are producing only about 35 per oent of Grade 
■A" hoga, and that la the only grade thet la really good enough 
for the Brltlah bacon market. ^1 hogs ere not good enou^* 
MZSa lUCPHAIL: Do you think aoae of then go overt 
m* Wr? After the wer the bonua on the 

B-1 hog ahould be eliminated and added to that peld for the 
Grade "A* hogs . If we are to do thit . we should not wait 
until after the war to cheoK up on our nog grading, but 


- 1182 - 8-13-46 

Mr. Duff 

•bouid start now to lay the foundation! for a continuing 
proaporous hog industry. 

Thar* la only ona aore aattar to vhiob Z would 
Ilka to rafar, Mr. Spaaker. It has baen Intisatad in tba 
Spaaoh from tba Tbrona that tbara la to ba a raorganis*- 
tlon of the Ontario Agrioultural Collaga. That aay ba 
naoasaary and desirable for tba specif io purposes of in- 
atructlon and research, which are the nain funetlona of 
tba Collage. But from the standpoint of tba operating 
fanaar, the College is too far removed frcn the fam for 
tba ganaral application of the results of ita work to thm 
fanns throughout Ontsrio. Operations at the Collaga ara 
at a level far above that of the average famar. What 
ve need is to have a system of demonstration farms across 
Ontario vlth one in each county, where, on an average fam 
of 100 aeras, operated at the practical farmer's level, the 
better modaro practices will be used and damonatrated In 
livestock breeding and relalng, crop Improvement and all 
the branches of farming In which our average fazmara can 
aee for tbemselvea, at their own level, tba benafita of 
improved practices. I would like tc sea such a damonatre- 
tlon farm aatablished in Bruce County, so that our faraars 
eould Visit It with little effort and oould aae for tbea- 
salves how to Incraaaa their farm inooaa by doing a batter 

I wiab to thank you, Mr. Spaaker, and tba asabara 
of this House, for your indulgenoa. If I have aaaaad to 
labour unduly the needs of Bruce County; It is because X 
believe ainoarely that what la good for Bruce is yjod for 
all of that large section of Ontario in wbiob sgrioulturs 
Is predominant. These rural areas are the coat ImT^ortant 
part of the province. Without a souna agriculture and 


0007 - 1183 - 5-13-48 

Mr. Duff 

• proap«rou9 and happy rural people, the whole of our 
OBtlonal eoonomy Is doomed to disaster. But If Is our 
postvor planning that Important fact is kept in alnd, it 
■ill te possible for those in plaees of responsibility to 
Bake a lasting contribution to the future welfare and well- 
being of all our people. 


(Page 1164 follows ) 


- U84 - 3-13-45 

m, KZISOH AM, as iZB9T North): Mr. Speaker, «e baTe 
Ao tlQD for negotiye orltlcisma of ttie 3peeoli firom tbt Ibronfe. 

It Is gratifying that the Department of Ijabour baa 
been able to function aa well aa It haa In the peat year. 

I hope that It la an Indication that we hare oom 
to rooognlze the rights of labour and to accept oolleotlTe 
bargaining aa a necessary part of our desiocraoy. 

Actually, labour unions Ua^e cone about aa a reeult 
of an expanding industrial system as you all know. 

In days whea manufacturing plants were aoaller, tha 
•nployer v7qs in closer touch with i .^ ur^pioyees but with 
the daTelopxaent of Industry there la a great gap between the 
ecployer, and In many oaaea, his thousands of esployeea. 

The employer, even if he is willing to uoaerstand 
the problema of his workers, even if he la ay^pathetlc, 
which I regret to say is not too oft as the case, still la 
unable to deal personally with conaicions throughout the 
plant and with the problems of his workara and It is abao- 
lutely necessary that workers organizations bridge thla gap. 

In an older democracy, such aa Great Britain, prac- 
tically all the workera are organized and no one reoerda 
this as in any way radical but aa a perfectly natxiral, 
democrat io deTolopment. 

It la taking a long tine for that adalrable atate of 
affaire to come about In our own laaa advanoed country. 

There haTs been aoae eoployera ao old faahioned« so 
far behind the tinea and ao ill informed aa to try to oonvlnoe 
tba goTarnaant and the country that trade unioniaa la alaoat 
a subrerslTe element, rather radloal and ewen allfthtly 

Bowerer, even these employers ouat realize mom thftt 
it la necessary to accept the trade union BoweDsnt aa a 
natural and Inevitable dovelopaent lAxloh ouat be recognized 

[8 - 11®* - 9-1S-45 

in a country whloh Is beeomlng mora and nora induatriallsad. 

A strong trada union oan and doaa laad to graatar 
oo-oparatlon batwaci labour and mnagaawnt whan both adopt 
ttaa propar attltuda. 

Tha faot that Canada* a vartlaa produotlon ataowa a 
rooord, of which «e can wall ba proud, goaa hand in hand 
with tha faot that tha trada union movaeiant haa deralopad 
and grown and bo coma atrong during our wartima jaara. 

A damooratlc moTamant such as tha trada union mora- 
mant If syiqpathatloally nurturad and aldad at tha propar 
tlma is not only an aid to graatar demooracy through azpraaa- 
Ing tha thoughta of larga bodlas of peopla, but Is also a 
aafaguard against tha tlda of raaotlon whloh swapt away 80 
many of our denocracles in tha paat and led to this praaant 

.ihen the trade anion moTenent disappeared in Germany, 
swallowed up by an unsympathatlc goTamoBnt, Nasiiam, tbft 
worst form of reaction raignod sutretao. 

Therefore, i soy that this growing traae union 
BOTeoant still in its early stages in Canada and still 
endeavouring to grow under the difficultlaa or inadequata 
lagialatlon must be aided syspathetiealiy ana with our 
utmost understanding at this tlma* 

There has never baan any question of tha labour 
BtoYaoant m Canada being dangerous. 

Most of us hare are advanoad enough to laaow that now. 

Tat damooratlc foroaa itiloh are balJcad whan they 
should be aided often do lead to chaotic oonditiona and do 
retard our progreaa toward a stable and prosparoua aociety. 

I say, therefore, that the greateat and Moat Talu- 
able thing we oan do here in thia aeasion will be to axaend 
inadequate leglalation to auit the seeds of the day. 

Our reoonmandations have been drawn up and prepared 


- 1X86 - 3«13>4&. 

by labour oxporta roproaontlng tba mttab«r«hip of l««diac 

truda union bodloa in tho country. 

I Bay that anything short of tha oarrying out of 

thaae recoouandatlona will fail to fill tha raqulraoAta 

d«Banda4 by praaant oonditiona. 

Briefly, thasa raooaoandatl ona ara aa follows: 

(1) Applioationa and Cartifioationa - 

Saation 5 (1) provldos that **tha anployoaa of any 

oaployor nay elect bargaining reprasantatlTaa by 

a majority vota of tha amployaaa affected." 

In the flrat plaoa, oritioiam ia directed at Xhm 

certification of "bargaining ropreoentctivea" 

rather than "bargaining a^noiea". 

Certification of a "bargainins agency** would aaan 

rocotTiition of the trade union. 

Certainly it ia the Union that workers Join, and 

not the bargaining repraaontatiTea. 

Too much stress ia placed on '^bargaining represanta- 

tiTea", and not enough on the Trade Union wbich, 

after all, is the petitioner. 

;|I) Sleotion of Bargaining Baprasentativwa. 

Secondly, it has already been pointed out by tha Leader 

of the CC? opposition xhAX tne practica of conduotinc 

alootions under these regulations la contrary to tha 

Tary basis of our daaooratio society, ^'rovi:.'cial olKtiaas 


I refer specifically to Section 5 (1) and (£) where 
bargaining repreientatlTaa ouat bo elected by a oajority 
of the amplojaaa affected. 

to Juc .... 

• e;tn0iaa!'iXJJi<&' . til ^U.iW^' .- • . ■ iJiSr^eaiftit^' .. 

:: - --,',»^«r f»*.^ifj ^Yiialrtfi:. . 

©riJ *a fc«>J09i.!:f> jsf jaaJtot?i20.-,.aOBlq. ;t.BTjtl. ^A$ kI r.' 
"a©vJt;)Mv 'v^flS^Mr^" lo noi^BOXlJt^iao' r 

nBaffifilwow":. _ t lo InoiJao 1.1:1 :f*To? ' 

1© Y<f two J YXJo^aX* fJBri.n .^IfrfUW^fii^.i;, 

1 iQ%o o«a5f»' lif o . lo '»i a«tf • x«aT^ :' * 
S) tiM IX) 5. noi*o»8".o^ XXIaOiliooqa ^o1*i,I, 

- llQ6-a 3-13-49. 

Aftor the Board ha» aatltfied Itself that the applicant 
union Uaa a majority of tho application o«urda slgnatf, 
they can then order o vote to be taken. 
In other words, a union must satisfy the Board by tvo 
different oethods that a mjorlty of the eq>loyees wish 
to be represented by the applicant union. 
Delay is the daionlng factor here InTolved, for It allova 
an antl-unlon undemocratic company to take advantage of 
opposing cortifl cation of a union without actually 
violating section 19, which deals with unfair practices. 
(3) Negotiations for an agreement . 

The UiV In Ulndsor has had to deal with a number of oanage- 
oents who do not care to bargain in good faith. 
For ozai:¥>le, undor Soctlons 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14, aTter a 
union has been certified, management may sxiggest an agree- 
ment to the union in which it would be icoposslble t<x the 
union to carry on either its bargaining or administrative 

This, along with the fact that the report of a Conciliation 
Board la not final and binding presents the Union with the 
ultimatum that it must either accept an Inferior agreeoent 

or request the Departnont of Labour for permission to tak» 

a strike vote. 

(a) Union Jecuritj 

ye are oil agreed that Collective Bargaining Is a natural 

outgrowth of the democratic systen as witnessed in the 

other £;reat domocracles of the world - Great Britain, the 

United states and Soviet Russia. 

AB Collective Bargaining evolved democratically, so ''Inlon 

Security* will follow. 

At present trade-union orgsuol sat ions controlled and 

regulated by the provisions of p.C. 1009 and faced with the 

r ©*1A 

ow:f Y_C • o ill 

'^ M a^ 


a 1 

' »p* 

-oc aari aoltiu 

-1 no 

- 1186-b 9-13.49. 

problens of the poat-var or* anzlotia to obtain provisions 
in tnolr ColleotlT« agr«omanta vuicn will provid* a reason' 
abla neature of security for the oontlnuod axlstenee and 
functioning of their trade unions. 

Zt la generally agreed that the trade-union aor aaant 
la in favour of uninterrupted production as long aa our 
boys are fighting to build a world free froa facisa. 
It is only fair to asaunie that a greater measure of 00- 
operation will be deocaded of both in the days of p«ao« 
to follow. 

{b) Conciliation Boards. 
X refer here only briefly to Conciliation Boards, becausa 
it is obvious that they have no Authority and that ^elr 
final deciaion is not binding, uiler these regulations. 

(c) Renewal of Collective Agr^MMnts. 

(d) Grievance procedure. 

Sections 17 and 18 deal with griavanoa procedure, but only 
in the teras of arbitration procedure. 

That is, only disputes arising out of the lntorprotaii.on or 
the violation of an agraaaent may be dealt with. 

In other words, grievances that are not included in 
the agraamont, which probably oigat arise tiirough chang- 
ing conditions and circunstances, cannot be dealt with 
as legitinata Grievances. 

It would not bo difficult to insert a clause in 
colic ctlva ag7««BHnts covering this point, but iliaa aueh 
la attonpted on the part of the Union* inagamanta 
alaost consistently refuse. 
4. i'roeecutlons . 
The affect of section 49 aeans that if a Union should 

d -()■ 

ae Ir 19a eXda 

. uioiiui ebBi:t ilQd:t 1. Joxu/l 



oiinao , aeoiiBJiii.aj-oiJta- i^oA e 

ij xfiiixi 

iliic ^j&e«i. 


oX as 


•i^ nG. 

- Ue« -c - 3-13-45. 

obtain p«rml8alon to prosacuta an flqployar and ba 
sucoasaful, tha azpansa of proaaoution ouat ba boma 
by the proaaeutine party. 

Tha poaition of orsonlzad Laboiir on thia point la 
that by thalr succaaa In prosaeutlng thay would only ba 
upholding the law, and m lAl falrnaas thay bolloTa tha 
a^gpansa and rasponalblllty Incurred should reat with tha 
5. Delay 

Tha experience of the Labour sioveaant In dealing 
with the procedure ostabliehed under the regulations of 
P.O. 1003 leads to the belief that there la too auch rad 
tape, which In turn cauaea delay. 

Delay is one of the deadlier waapona of tha anti- 
union undemocratic eupioyer. 

It couses unrost and dlsaatisfactlonin tha olnda of 
the workers and does not help to create that fbellng 
of cooperation ;:nicr. is supposed to oe one or the pre- 
requisites for tha succeasful administration of any Labour 

Aa Indicated previously, :. intend to aoul briefly with 
F.C. 9384, the :7artlme ffuge control Order. 

In the opinion of oany of our leading trade unionlata 
in Canada thla ruling of tha National 7ar Labour Board 
takes the place of the function of fraa collootlYe barcoln- 
Ing, and aa the war prograasaa ahould be provided with a 
more flexible approach. 

Allow me, Ur. Speaker, to quota from tha Ordar, In 
part, dealing with tha authorization of waco Increcaaa, 
**Only If and to the extent that the national Board flnda 
that such Incraaaad rate or range la naoa8aax7 to rectify 
a groa* inequality of groas Injuatioa.** 


- 1186-d - 3-13-45. 


The terms "gross inaqusllty" and "gross mjustles" 
may be subjected to a Torloty of interpret st ions. 

AS an Illustration, aay I oite the ease or Local 
IIo. 1 ot the National Union of Food Processors In their 
appeal i* the Ontalrio ^or Labour Board for an increass 
of S^ par hour for oon and an Increase of 3i^ per hour 
for waoen. 

The Canada Starch Conqpany of Cardinal, Ontario, 
statod Its poolilon as being only prepared to grant a 
wace Increase to both men and Troaen amounting to 3^ 
per hour. 

in reviewing the case the Ontario Labour Board 
decided that a situation of "gross inequality* and "gross 
Injustice" existed, and awarded tho Union their appeal. 

The Coiq)any appealed the decision of the Ontario 
Labour hoard to ,the National var Labour Board, itto. 
In turn, decided to deal with the matter as if it had 
ooue to them for "decision In the first instance". 

The result was that the decision of the cntario labour 
Board was set aside, and "an increase of three cents an 
hour", w..loh the Company was prepared to pay, was 

Tne Im.urtunoe of this illustration oakcs It only 
too clear that the whole Order la Council and Its adalnls- 
fflust be examined and amended without delay. 

These reconraoauqtxoaa are outlined at greater length 
by the coa.alttee estobllshed by the Canadian Congress of 
i.cbuu: the basis for the aaandaents to be oon- 

siaerea ^y inc labour coaolttoe appointed in toe uouse. 

It reuialns only for the labour comolttea to follow 
these rocoiirr'. n.!ntlons, implenent thorn, and place thea before 
the ;!ou8e. 


- 1186 •• - 3-13-4S. 

Since OTory rooootMndatlon la a logleal and raaaon- 
able ona, I truat there will be no reaaon, i^atever, for any- 
one to oonaolentloualy refuae to accept tbea. 

Ontario la the ooat highly induatrlallzed prorinoe 
In the Doalnion, and lauat lead the way In adreneed laboxir 
leglalation aa It has so adnirably led the way In produc- 
tion to iseet wartiae needa. 

Democraoy muat progreaa or decay, and thua eTazy 
Step forward In the form of nore advanoed legislation la 
a suorantoe of the deiaocracy for which our gallant foroea 
are fluting. 

It waa Intorcatlng to note In the Speech froa the 
Throne that the Departnent of Highwaya and the Departaent 
of Public 7ork8 have coaprehenslve prograaaea to provide poat< 
var anployraent to fill In the gap between wortloe and 
peace tiae production, and that the Department of Planning 
and Developnont will deal with town planning. 

Zt la alao Gratifying to note that the GOTernzMnt 
propoaea to put through enabling leglalation, ao that 
aunloipalltlea can talce advantage of the offer of the 

(Pago No. 1187 follova.) 

- 1187 - 3-i3-45 

Donlsion Gorernioent to aid financially In national 

Those are the elenentaxy stops to be taken m 
providing eiig>loyaient in the Inmedlate postwar years. 

The hon. laeabers of the opposition maintain that 
only a socialist goTernnsnt can neet tho problen of full 
esqployiasnt In peacetime. 

•Jhlle there seeas to be no Ismedlate possibility 
of a socialist order coming about, it remains for the 
coTJltalist systeu, which is on trial for its lifo. to meet 
tna aeoand for full eorployment or its failure mix jviatiiy 
this opinion. 

It IS no longer a question vl political theory, 
the "proof of the pudding" lies ahead. 

It Is largely a question of what we do in this 
House as far as this province is nnncomod. 

There are those on tlie other hon jno maintain that 
throwing out the present system In favour of another 
much illce "throwing the baby out ^th the bath water". 

To be perfectly practical i con only say, since 
socialism is not an Immediate posalbility it is up to 
us to maKe the present system work. 

I say that the moasures outlined in the Speech froa 

the Throne for postwar employaant are elementary beoaus« 
frtiile they take up the slack and are very necessary for that 
puipose lor tne time being, ttiey are only for the time 
being and oust be followed by more planning* 


- 1188 - 9-19-40 

MR. A. KSL30 ROBXRTS (3t. Patriok): Mr. 3p«alc«r» 
In view of tb« latsneas of the hour I nove tb« adjourn- 
A*nt of the debate. 

Motion a^^reod tol 

HON. OlOBOB A. DRSV (Prime Minister): Mr. 3peeker. 
before I laove the adjournment of the bouse, I might sey 
we will proweed with governnent crders tomorrow and be sit- 
ting tomorrow night. I move the house do now adjourn. 

Mr. JOLLIFFK; Do I understand we will be sitting 
tomorrow riignt to proceed with bills or with the debate. 

MR. DSSW: Well, Z frankly think that i*d th some of 
the lengthy bills beforo u3 we will have plenty to do to- 
morrow night. 1 oientionea to tne hon. Leader of the Oppo- 
sition in oonveraation, and I soould mention in the Legis- 
lature that we propose to cnll the order dealing with 
Supplementary Satimates. That is not part of the budget 
debate but applies to the payment out of the past year's 
funds. N« will proceed then with the other gorerriment 
orders, and if there is any time unfilled, the hon. member 
who has adjourned the debate will continue. 

MR. JOLLIFFB: Mr. 3pea!cer. I wonder if it would 
oe possible for the hon. aemoers to <now now whether there 
will be any sitting Thursday night. 

MR. DREW: I thinK we should continue to sit at 
nights. iVe have had the preliainary examination of the 
Dills oy the ooamittees and so on, and I think «• ihould 
get at the business of the house at night as well as in 
the afternoon. 

MR. JOLLIFrS: I woild a^ree until eleven o'clock. 

MR. OfiSW: I have no thought of pressing the ho(^. 
■Mkbers, and the very reeson that I suggest doing this it 
to avoid the necessity of carrying on later than eleven on 
any occasion. I might aay nun t.uat I do not want a repiti- 


- 1189 - 9-13-4B 

tioti of what took plioe last yaar whan «a wera orowdad ao 


flnob. and I oao go baolc to a fact apropoa of tba raaark 

mada by tha hoa. nambar for York Wast (Mr. Millard) tbat 

I feal tbara ara a nunbar of amandaanta which oould ba 

brought down lu ragard to tha praotloa and tha rulaa. and 

I think In tha naar futura wa should oonaidar tha advlaa- 

bility of bringing In tha IstliBataa such aarllar. ao thaft 

wa oould fill la the odd half or thra«~quartara of aD hour 

with iSatifflatas whloh ara alwaya raady to ba eallad. For 

luatanoa, thij aftarnoon we eo*:lc hara taken tha Satimataa 

of aocaa Dapartaaut which prooaoiy wo ild not oa daoataola 

4tnd oould have filled in the extra time. 

MR. NIXON: May I ask the hon. Prlaae Minister what 
the procedure will be in connection with cne vote of tnis 
18,000.000 for Kduoation. Will Mr. Speaker not have to 
leave the chair and the hcise resoive itself into a Cos- 
aittee of Juppiy, 

MR. DBJBIf: Yes, that is right. Votioa of notion 
has oeen given to go into Coomittaa of Jupply, bit it ia 
not to deal with a projected payment; it ia to deal witH 
tha paymebt out of thia years' funds. 

MR. JOLLIFfB: Aa I undaratand it — and I «N>jld 
ba interested to hear what tha hon. aanber for Br«Dt 
(Mr. Nixon) has to aay about it - thaaa Jupplaaantary Is- 
«. .tes are really a part of tha currant yaar*8 budgat, 
and not h part of tha budget which will ba later conaid* 
arad for the year ending March Slat, 1946. 

MR. OBIW: Tea, that ia oorraot. 

MR. NIXON: It haa not oa<»n tha praotloa ainoa tha 
fiscal yaar was changed to have dupplaaantary Bstiaatas. 

MR* DRBW: I quite agree that thia is not tha uaual 
procedure, calling for Supplementary Satiiaatas to fill ia. 


HH 7 - 11«0 - 8-13-46 

*#• bar* a tpaoirlo purpose In paying tbit psrtioalar aaouDt. 
and it doaa aotually oarry out tha sugcastlon tbat waa aada. 
and wa had intandad as wall to do that. Tba auggaation baa 
oaaii mada alsawhara tbat tbaaa paymaota abould ba aada to tba 
aobool ooards as soon as possiola baoausa it ia a vary graat 
adTaotage to tbam in daaling witb tbair finanoial prograaaa 
for tba ramaindar of the year. 

Motion agree to and tba House adjourned at alaran 


- 1191 - 8-14-lS. 



Toronto, Ontario » 
WednbsAay.'Uaroh 14, 1949. 

SPSAKSR: Honourable Villiam J. Stewart, C.B.B* 

The Houae met at three o'clock. 

Prayers . 

UP. SPSAKXR: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by oommittees. 

Mot ions . 

HON. LESLIE U. FROST (Ulniater of Mines): ICr. Speakar, 
In the absence of Mr, Roberts (St. Patrick), I beg leaTe to 
report BlllsNo. 41 and 42, which were deliberated upon by tha 
Legal Bills' Coomittee. I have here ine official report. 

CLERK OF TIIB HOUSE: In the absence of Ur. Roberts 
(St. Patrick), Mr. Frost begs to report the following bills, 
with certain aaandaents: - 

Bill No. 41, The Securities AOt, 1945. 

Bill No. 42, formerly Intituled "An let respeetlng 
Prospecting Syndicates haTlng a capital not azo«adlns #10,000," 
and now intituled "An Act respecting Prospeotlag Syndloataa 
haTlng a capital not exceeding $39,000.** 

Motion sgreed to. 

BON. OBOmS H. DOUdR (Minister of Highways): llow«d 
by Byself, seconded by Mr. Blackwell, that laawa ba glTen to 

I A 

bad" fir: 


aezda a 

ij-c. JJSjjt;^ 


.i.'i , l-Aofi&B^ .&3) 

aXVfin BSTjE.: 


uOI JO-i 

TBriJ , 

t»bncoe2 .^les"/ 

- 119t - 

Introduce a bill intituled "The Sxigar B««t Subsidy Act, 
1945," and that aana be read a first tlas. 

Motion agresd to and bill read the first tlae. 

UB. SDIARD B. JOLLim (York South): Would the hon. 
Minister explain? 

MR. DOUCBTT: This bill is to extend the SUfSSff B»«t 
Subsidy ^vct, the same as in former years, paying up to 01*&S< 

HON. LESLI2 E. BLJLCKWBU. (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, I move, seconded by hon. Ur» Frost, that leat* b« 
glTon to introduce a bill intituled "An Act to snend the 
Fire Departments* Act," and that saoe be now read a first 

Motion agreed to and bill read a first time. 

MR. ROBERT LAURIER (Ottawa SASt): I would ask the 
hon. Attorney General to explain. 

MR. BLACKHBIitt llr. Speaker, this is not a oanda- 
tory bill. It is an enabling bill, which enables any 
municipality to establish the platoon systan in its firs 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

MB. MITCHELL F, IfflPBTJRN (Elgin): Befors the Orders 
of the Day are called, on a point of order, the otner day 
the hon. member for Perth (Mr* Dickson) asked a question 
of the hon. Mlnlnter of Highways, which reads as fbllows: 
"Has the Uinister of Highways iaauaa directions asking 
that all gasoline tax collectors* bonda be handled through 
one source? 

"If so, itxat was tha ^>ne source*? 
*nniat is tha totsl mumt of bonda required firos 
gasoline tax collectors ? ** 

The answers read as follows: 

- 'ZQIL - 




,11A : ( Xflr^XloO Y© 

&3itl MmQ [Od eni'i 


axf;!" 2i3B 3vra;^c^ 


■jicfGns : id ijtot 

ilgDOiri;}- £iB iioJoell La tacit 

TdOTLUOa 9110 

. . -^„ .... gg^ ;fsrw tOB "" 
fl[Gi:!t berucjjpea aiirtc jj-ol^ enr ai 

-00 rs:f anlloafls 

- 1193 - 3-14-46. 

"1. No." 

In other words, no Inatruotlons hart b«on issued. 

"£. Ansvered by No. 1. 

"3. The total aaount of bonds InYolyad, $2,139,000." 

I submit to 3rou, Mr. Speaker , that this qutatlon Is 

entirely wrong, becauae I want to submit to this Housa copies 

of a letter, - at least, one copy, - whloh was sant out, and 

whloh I shall read to the House. This letter was signed bj 

J. H. Robinson, the Chief Inspector of Gasoline Taxes, and it 

roads as follows: 

"lioUanus Petroleums, Limited, 

225 Rectory Street, 
London, Ontario. 

Dear Sirs: Attention F. J. lioora 

"I have been Instructed by the Minister of High- 
ways to advise you that. In accordance with tha 
Gasoline Tax Collectors Articles of Agreement, your 
oooq>any Is required to furnish this Departaent with 
a bond for $45,000.00 to assure payment of your 
collections of the Ontario Gasollna Tax, 

"The Department has just completed negotiationa 
with regard to the natter of premium charges* satis- 
factory arrangements and \indeiwrltlng conditions hare 
been made available by an understanding that all 
colloctors* bonds be handled throu^ one sourea. To 
this end, arrangements have been made with the A. S« 
Wilson Company, Limited, Luaaden Building, Toronto, 
at the following rates:" 

And there follows a schedule of the rates. 

"Participation in this group plan is optional. 
However, may we point out that, where the group plan 
is not adopted, and bonds are obtainad elsewhera, tha 

premium rates msy be higher. 

"Dominion of Canada or Provinoa of Ontario bearer 
securities may be submitted in lieu of tha abova plan. 

"Will you kindly adviaa this Department at your 
earliest convenienoe as to your arrmgaaants la this 

"Tours very truly, 

(Signed) J. U. Robinson." 

I want to sand a eopy of the letter to tha Labour 

Progressive Party, to tha hon. Prias Minister and to tha Laadar 

.beisa&l floed ©vbxI anoxa^owiciani c 

't<i ^& 


10' tH TO 


".noani^oH .II .T, (fee 
•XiJocfB. lotfcTe r f 

^8J 9ri;r .Qj- £)ii8 "i©3-8iiriM ami svlsi T 

- U94 - 3-14-45. 

of the Opposition (Kr. Jolllffe). 

I submit, Ur, Speaker, that the question, the r^ly to 
vhloh appears on page 126 of the Votes and Proceedings, is 
entirely in error, because there, definitely, the hon. Ulnister 
of Hlgfavaya has Intimated that insurance be placed with a 
definite company with which, I am informed, he has been 
asaociated hlmaelf as an insurance man. 

HON. GEOHQB H. DOUCBTT (Ulnlator of nirfiways) : This 
Is just about vrtiat I would expect froa tae iion. ^seober for 
Elgin. Ulght I say that I haye nothing, whaterer, to do with 
the sending out of this letter. 

UR. UEFBUBN (Elgin): Just a minute, Mr. Speaker, — 

MR. DOUCETT: I have the floor. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): He will ha've to reprimand the 
Chief Inspector. 

UR. DOUCETT: The hon. member for Elgin has not seen 
fit, to-day, to read in this House a letter, — I would like 
him to read the other letter that goes with it, and tnen this 
honourable House will have the proper circumstances surround- 
ing the whole subject, and If you do not read that letter, I 
win do so at a later date. 

UR. HBISURN (Elgin) : I just vuit to draw your atten- 
tion to the opening sentenoe, and I understand l!r. noblraon, 
to make sure that he was proapted, - he said ne was in tnis 
letter, «hen he states, "I have been instructed by tha 

Ulnister of Hlghwasra to advise yon that ** and It followa 

that "that" Is to place iaauranoe with the oaapany witn wxuch 
■y hon. friend has been associated as an agent, snd he cannot 
disassociate himself with that. 

I do not know how many letters (X this kind went out, 
but I will submit to the Clerk of the Bouse, through a resolu- 


- ^QLi - 



o^ vl 

.Oi^a -.~;f: ■• 


aeecs jl 


n*> uor ^i 


,U. :- .h,r 


O jtjt. Q ^ m %> ^ 

rr'!;\* sstTSt 

EST ^ 

i:w- I S'ud 

- 1195 - 8-14-45. 

tlon, that th«re be laid before the Houae a eopj 
of the letter written on the official letterhead of the 
Hlghvaya Departmant, the gaaollne tax branch, auggeatin^ 
that their bonda be handled through one particular agency. 

Will the hon. lUnlater deny he haa cTer been 
aaaoclated with thla company in any way? 

MR. DOUCETT: I have no intentiona of denying It, 
and I feel it an honour to be aaaooiated with a com^Dj of 
thla type, but I do deny the fact of haTing anything to do 
with thla letter*a being aent out, and, if you are fair, 
you will produce the letter that saya they can file bonda 
of any type, aa aet out by the Department, and that thay 
have done. 

There Is a lot I could aay about the petroleoB 
company you are talking about, but you interceded. Tou 
came to me to get certain privllegea which I refuaed, and 
now you leave the natter before the Houae, and if you ara 
going to moke aome reatitution with your friend for what 
haa been dbne in thla regard, all right, but I deny it, 

UR. BBFDUSN (Elgin) : The letter waa aent out long 
before the party of the fir at part in thla letter... it waa 
handled in a most abominable manner by the hon. Uiniater, 
bo cause he gave the letter to the public. 

Thot is wny you uprooted me, and I am aaking a • 
oo^>lete inveatigation be held in thla matter, and I will 
aak that Mr. Robinaon be aumnoned to appear before the 
oommlttee of thla Uouae» to aacertain whether, or not, ha 
waa right, land I have reaaon to be Here he waa,) whan ha 
aaid he had been inatructed by the hon. lUniater of High- 
waya and adviaed to place inaurance with the cocq>any with 



ti •TO lit 




0xi iiarir; 3BW 

« 1196 - 8*14-46. 

vhloh you were associated. 

MR. DOUCETT- I think the hon. neokyer for Elgin it 
going too tdiT in inferring that I an a part of the ocapany. 
I am not aasooiated with the ooaq>any, no more than with 
any other insurance ocmpany. I have done business with them, 
but, as far as being a part of the company, I am not, and 
never was. 

MB. KZraUBN (Elgin) : I said you were an aeont of 
the company. I asked a question, but we will have a com- 
plete investigation into this. This Is unprecedented. 

lilR. SPEAKER: The whole thing la out cf order. I 
have had no notice of the question. If you care to giTS na 
a notice. 

UR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Do you thlni: it is in order 
for ttie hon. liinister of the Crown to instruct people to do 
business with a certain company with which be haa been 
associated, as liinister? 

MR.SPSAKER: I know nothing, at all, about it. 

MR. HARRY NIXON (Brant): This was raised on a point 
of order, challenging an answer to a question. 

UR. lIEPBURn (Elgin) : May I just read jrou this 
question: "Has the Minister of Hlchnays Issued directions 
asicing that ail gasoline tax collectors* be nonuied 
through one source?** And the answer is '*No.** 

Here I have produced a letter In which J. H. 
Robinson, who is t:ie Cuiof Inspector, uu;. ; , 'i nave bean 
Instructed by the hon. Allnlster of Highways to adriae you 
that. In aceordanoe with the Gasoline Tax Collectors' 
articles oi ogreaDont, your Qompanj xs requircu 
this Departawnt with a bond for <M&,CX)0 to assure payment 
of your collections of the Ontario Gasoline Tax. 

- 1197 - 9-14-45. 

"Th* Departaant bat juat ooiBplatod nagotlatlona with 
ragard to tha matter of pramlua chargas. Jatlafaotory arrange- 
ments and undenrrltln^ oonditiona have bean made aTallabla 
by an iinder standing that all oolleotors* bonda be handled 
through one souroe. To this and, arraogeiaanta have bean 
made with the a. X. ;711aon Cozapany, LlMtad,** 

Now, I question him, Lr. Spaokar, as regards tha 
aoouraoy of tho anawer made to the hon. nambar for Perth 
(Mr. Dickson) In reply to the question put to the hon. 
Minister of Highways. The answer was '*No.'* Is It "Ho" or 
Is it "Yes"? 

UR. DOUCSTT: May I ask the hon. asaber If ha does 
know that a letter was sent out to cancel thla as soon aa 
It v/as brought to my attention? 

MR. }{EFBUHN (Elgin): After you were caught, prob- 
ably. This letter was dated April the 11th, 1944. Tou glwa 
ma the date of the letter you sent out caneelling it. 

MR. DOUCEIT: You Imow very well. 

UR» KBIBURII (Elgin): After you ware oaxight you sent 
It out. 

UR, SPEAKER: There Is a way of getting these thlnga 
before the Orders of the Day, and that Is by giving mm notioa 
before the House opens. If the hon. m«sb\,r for Slgin (Mr* 
Hepburn) agrees to give a notioa, I will acoapt the notioa. 

UR. IflEtBU H M (Xlgln): Are wo entitled to honeat 
ana war a, or not? 

IB. SFSAKXR: Tas. You mie^t aak a question of tlia 
hon. Ulnister, and you have your anavar, but it la not debat- 
able. I want to help you, if I can. If you glwa ma a notioa, 
I will accept it. 

BON. OBGBQS A. LKSS (FriaB Ulnister): I think I should 




3qo 3e 

J E9©' 

:3*aJ-aJ:M .rrod 
1 tnaxr I 

- 1190 - 3-14'>45. 

point thlo out, in vlov of sone of the r«aarka that hoi»« 
boon made that the tpeaker who has ralaed thla point haa 
not civoQ notice, and it is out of order. If it nsre not 
the hon. aember for Elgin, and any other hon. nariber of 
this House, I would ask for a withdrawal, but I shall not 
do 80 in this case. 

ItB. IIEFBUHN (Slcin) : 7ou can do anythinc you want, 
I will stake my seat. 

UP. Eir/ARD B. JOLLIFFS (Leader of the Opposition): 
I would like to know v;hether the hon. nember for Elgin 
(Ur. Hepburn) la glTlng a notice on motion, or not. I 
think it should be Investigated, and I think the House la 
entitled to loiow whether the hon. iQeBt>er is novlng to that 
effect, or is not. 

(Page No. 1199 folios.) 



- 1199 - 5-14-45 

llr*B«pbum (Il«ln) 

If thero la any truth in the latter a oopy of vhioh 
I bare recelYed, I think there should be an InTeotlgatlon Da- 
oause It Is entirely inoonsistent with the anawer ahlob 
appears in the Votes and Prooeedlngs. 

HON. GEORGE A. ERSW (Prina Idiniater): Mr. Spaakar, I 
might point out that the hon. luember's notion la quite unoaoas- 
sary In view of the faot that the Minister cf Rlghaays plr. 
Douoett) has assured the hon. Domber anc tne house that ha 
will welccme an Investigation, ana I need hardly add anything 
to that. There Is a perfectly rro-ar way of bringing thla 

matter up and the Governoent wixx aeicojoa a compiate inTesti- 
gation of all the factu. 

MR. DOUCBTT: That la what I would prefer. 

MR. lUSPBURi: (Slgin): I have submitted to the Clark 
a resolution asking that all letters of thla kind ba tabled. 
This particular letter was dated April 11th, and I qxiaationad 
Mr. Robertson whether the Minister had Instruotad him or not, 
and ha said definitely th'jt the Miniater had given him in* 
atruotlons to send out word to all those who were gasollna 
tax collectors to place their Insurance with the company 
with which the Minister la aaaooiated. I walooma a Bouaa 
investigation, but first I want to have all the aorraapondanaa 
tabled. I have already aubmitted my motion to tha Clark an4 
I ask that the motion, seconded by Mr. Nixon, ba now put, that 
a cooplate Investigation ba bald and that all tha oorraa- 
pandanoa ba tabled immad lately. 

MR. SFSADR: Two daya notice of tha motion ara 

I3{. DRSW: Thla matter will ba plaoad bafora tha 
Aocounta Conmlttaa. That la dafinita, ao there ia no naad 
for thla motion. 

- 1200 « 3-14-4C 

UR. 3PIAXIR: Orders of the Day. 

MR. ER9I: Ur. Spaa ice r, in aooordanoa vltb «bat I 
explained to the House yesterday I mm oallli^ Order 56. 

HON. LESLIE U. FR037 (Provicolal Treasurer]: Mr. 
Speaker, I move that you do now le:ive the chair for the 
House to resolve itself into committee of supply to oonald^r 
supplementary estimates fox* the fiscal year ending Maroh 31, 

MR. M. F. HEPBUBi: (Klgln): Ur. Speaker, I would 
recall to your attention and that of hon. members, that tb« 
other day when the Prime Minister (Mr. Dre«) asked for par- 
mission to bring down the budget he said that before we 
went into supplementary estimates he would consult with the 
Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal group 
and the Leader of the Labor- Progressive party. That has 
not baen done. 

I do not see any utiuue haate about this thing. 
As a matter of fact the fate of this Oovernment is hanging 
in the balance. There is an sPiendment and a subtBendaant 
pending, and before we vote suppxy to this OoveriuLant 
those amendments should be voted upon. 

MR. DRSV: Mr. Spaaker, I sold quite olearlr.and 
I thinK that most other non. oemoers wixx remeaoe: ar^ 
feotly, that we would not proceed with the budget debate, 
and we have no Intention of doing so, without first con- 
sul ti eg Kith the leaoers of the other groups. 

The puxpase of the motion now before ua to go 
into oonnlttea of auunlv la almDlv' to orovldo for naklQ§ 
an aa Vance payment to t^e ocheoi. boards of this proviao« 
which has already been suggested here. It has nothing 
whatever to do with tbe budget for the coming year. It 
la a paynent out of the funds of the past year to the 






- lEOl - 3-14-46 

Ur. Dr«« 

school boards of the provlnos. It has nothing at an to 
do Kith the budgst debate. 

MR. HEPBURN (Ilgin): I hsre not a copy of Hansard 
before ne st the assMnt, but If my oisniory serves as oerreetly, 
and I be 11 eve It doea, the Prise Minister said that before he 
asked us to vote supplement sry estlBstes he would consult the 
Leader of the Oppesltlcn, the Leader of this group, and I 
believe he also Included the Leader of the Labor- Progre as ira 
party. Before we proceed further with this motion I would 
like to get a copy of Hsnsard to sscertain whether my aasuM|»- 
tioii Is correct that that Is the statement which the Prime 
lUnlster made at that time. 

ISR. E. B. JOLLIFFB (Leader of the Opposition): Tba 
transcript of irtiat was ssld will no doubt tell the stery. Uf 
own recollection is that the statement made by the Prima Klnla- 
ter waa with reference to the continuation of the budget de- 
bate. I think that not much was said at that time about 
supplementary estlmatea. They were mentioned last night 
when the hun. member for Elgin wus not able to be here. But 
the hen. member for Slgln would be correct in saying that 
the Prime Uinister undertook that the budget debate would 
not be continued without first consulting with the laadara 
af other parties. 

W. FROST: I am quite prepared now, Mr. Spaakar, 
to state the purpose of our wanting to go into oonnittaa of 
supply, and I am prepered to give the House the fullest in- 
formation oh the matter. I presume that this motion ia 
debatable. I hara no objeotion to givli.g e full ataUmant 
af the purpose of the motion right now. putting all the 
eards on the teble face up, to uae an evor^aay expre3si.>n, 
so that hon. members and the people of the provinoa of 
Ontario wlJ know Just whst the purpoee of this motion is. 

- ItW - 3-X4-48 

ICr. rr««t 

!• are undertaking In this y««r ■ flnanolftl 
•paratlon of the first napnltud* so ftir as tb« costs of 
•ductition m tnis provir.cs are oonearnad. I sill flTO • 
fas figures to show the loportanca of what is baing dona 
and the neoesslty roe, without further delay, of our 
taking steps to give assistance to the fflu:.lclpailtlas of 

first of sll I should Ilka to glTO the B*usa an 
Indication of the magnitude of the financial oparatlona 
vhloh we are undertaklrig. 

The proposed payment to the school boards of 
Ontario for public and seperate school grants payable to 
the municipalities or to the school boarda in their flsoal 
year, January 1 to December 31 » 1945, aaounts to no lasa 
than $17,615,950. The grants paid last year to public and 
aeperate schools totalled $5^850,000; to continuation sohoola 
$195,000; to high schools and collegiate inatltutea, |660»OOO| 
to vocational schools, $1,351,800. That Bftkaa a total of 
grants paid last year, In 1944, of $8»06e,70C. Thle year 
thaaa corresponding granta will total $£5,603,460. Z 
aball be very glad to give detaila of these figures to any 
■niber of the House who oerea to haye than. 

Let me indicate the finanoial problem which It 
created for the munlolpalltlea by giving one or t«o «SMiplaa. 

Take the city of Chatham, for inatanoe, r«pr«aant«d 
hf ttm hon. member for Kent Weat (Mr. Oordon). In 1944 tha 
granta for all purposes to that municipality were $t9(57e. 
This year In 1945 the grants to thlo municipality will ba 
$189,664, In other eorde a llttla orar five tlmaa as auoh 
aa laat yeer. 

Take the city of Ottewe. Laat year, in 1944, 
the municipality 'a financial year running from January 1 





to. &K 

; 5n 

.^a oJr. Be Brfe 

BDC - i203 - 9-U-4S 

Mr. Froat 

to D«o«iab«r 31, the grants to th« olty of Ottaaa «er« 
^96»30&. This year lh» grants vill ba no lass than 

To tha olty of St. Catharlnaa tha grants iaat 
yaar aare $34,166. 

Mr. MITCHSLL: Br. Spaalosr, thasa flguraa ara 
Tsry Interesting but I thlntc «e vara glvan moat of thMi 
tha other day. 

MR. 3FSAKSB: What Is tha point of ordart 

IfR. MITCHSLL: Uy point of ordar is that these 
figures are not relevant to tha natter under discussion. 

UR. 3PIAKXR: They are quite In order. 

MR. FROST: I think they are very relevant aa X 
•hall explain in a moment. The grants to tha olty of 8t» 
Catharinee last year were $34,166 and this year $866,166. 

Talce the olty of Toronto. Last year tha granta 
were $6£7,000, and this year the grants total $3,SS6,000. 

Ky point Is this. The fact that these grants 
ara payable by the Govemmant means that thaaa ■unlolpalltlaa 
will in ail probability ba levying lasa taxes as thay natural- 
ly expect this money to coma in to finance the oparatlona of 
their school boarda. The point was vary properly raised by 
tba Laadar of the Oppositicu; iMr. Jolllffa) lohla address in 
the Throne debate. 

I have other figures which will reflect to hon. 
■iBbara the situation in tne provinoa of uotario and tha 
poaltlon m which tha sohool boards gaoarally will ba 
pla aad. 

Take the county of laaaz. Taka first tha tow 
ahlp of Anderson. Tha old granta ware $S6e,000. Tba naa 
grants will ba $1,014,000. In one saetlon the old grant 

was $300,000. This year it will ba $l,13£,00c, and so on. 





I* At 

'- OIBW 

i u '.. . . - i J - ,. 


• aoA c 

-.TWO* e^ . 

w©a sdT trie 

Mr. Prost 

In anothttr oas« th« grants laat y«ar ««r« 
|£,776 and this year they «lli b« $6,627. 

I bftTt nuBsrous •saaplas I oouid glvt f fob ay 
own riding. Take the Tillage of Boboaygeon. The grants 
for public aobool purposea on the old beala vera $906. 
On the nee beala they elll be $3»500. In the Continuation 
aehool on the old baa is the grant aaa $726, and on the ova 
basis It Is $4,177. 

In Fenelon Falla the Continuation aehool reeelTed 
$699, and thla year It will reoelTe something In axosaa at 

I noticed an editorial In one of the Toronto papara 
last night referring to rural education and the difficulty of 
pupils In the rural areas In attending Secondary aohools. 
la haYe In the proTlnce of Ontario a great many plaoaa 
where Continuation schools hare been aet up. I shall glva 
one example of thet to ahoa Ita operetlon and to ahoa the 
financial burden that would be thrown ontheaa ■ualoipalltiaa 
if «e did not deal with this problem at thla tiaa. 

Take Little Britain in the toanahlp of Maripoaa, 
and this is a typical example vhloh you could Bultlply by 
one hundred and fifty different oases in the provinoa. 
The old grant aaa $520. The new grant la $4,83S. That 
ia for Continuation aehool purpoaes alone. 

One of the effeeta of these increaaad gmta in 
■y opinloB will be that there will ba a great growth of 
Continuation aohools In the rural areaa whloh will enable 
the aehool children in thoae areaa to go to eentrea oioaer 
to their hones instead of having to go tu the larger eentrea. 

That glTea the Houao. Kr. 3pealcer, aona idea of 
the magnitude of these opeiTit.iciis. 

MR. KITCHSLL: Mr. Speaker, — 




bevleosi lorrioe ;ic Ue. 



- 1208 - > 14-45 

UR. 3PBAXIR: I0 th« hon. B«Bb«r raising • point 
of ord«r? What la the point of order? 

IdR. FR037: I ui Juat ooBlng to the point that ay 
hon. friend la Inpatient to hear about. The Oovernnent In 
meklrig theae granta to the alx thouaand aohool boarda in 
Ontario la recognizing its reaponaiblllty to pey grants of 
thia aize. Nov under the old system the granta «er« 
payable in the month of Auguat and were often paid in 
September or October, nhioh meant th&t the aohool board or 
the municipality, aa the oaae might be, would be oonpellad 
under those circumstances to go to the bank and borrow aonay 
and pay interest upon it in advanoe of tha granta that vera 
payable under the regulationa. 

The municipal year at arte January 1 and enda 
December 31, and we are now receiving widespread requaata 
for assistance in connection with these granta. The aohool 
boarda and the municipalities are asking ua: "Are you going 
to pay these grants in September or October or are you 
going to give us an advance on the money at the present 
time?" That la a very pertinent queetlon and one that la 
very Important to them. 3o we are altering the systam of 
payment and the purpoee of thia supplementary eatlmate la 
to enable an advance payment to the aohool boarda of tetarlo 
of approximately one-third of the total granta bofore lUiroh 
31st of this year. Wa have the money in the treasury ready 
for disbursement. Te have a aurplua whloh haa Wen aoouBulata4 
during the flaoal year ending March 31, 1945, aaountlng to 
$6,922,400 and we are aaking authority now to disburse to tba 
school boards of Ontario InMdlately thia eatlsate as given. 
The ehanues are in tha prooaaa of being prepered, subjeot to 
the approval of this House, and when the House epprovwa this 
estimate the sum of $6,808,000 will be loMadlately diaburseA 

- iaO« - 5*14-46 

Mr. Prott 

to tho six thousand aohool boards of Ontario. That la 

Bore than tha total of ta« granta paia iaat yaar or m any 
preoadlng yaar. 

Thara is no myateiy about this, Itr. Spaakar. Th« 
mttaraaa fully axplainad in ay buagot statanant. la ara 
almply ooming to tho House now for the authority of this 
Legislature to make this payment of ^6,606,400 before 
the flsoal year ends on Maroh 31,1945, ao thut «e oan Bales 
an Immediate advance payment of 34 per oent of tho total 
grants to the municipalities, aBOuntlng to $8,606,400. 
That la the purpose of this motion. 

In conclusion, I believe that the people of Oar 
tario and the school boards of Ontario will valoooM thia 
advance payment as an evidence of our appreciation of 
the financial difficulties which they have in floanoing 
school ooata all across the boerd in Ontario. It sill 
also be an appreciation of the fact that «e recognize 
that they have to pay heavy bank intereat if no advanoe 
payment is made and they have to borrow money fZDB the 
banks in order to oarry on their school operations. 

MR. UITCBBLL: Ths proposal la a very worthy one, 
but that la not the point, Mr. Speaker, that I roae to apeak 
to. Repeated atatasenta are being nede that these grenta 
are to improvn educational facilitlea. The feet is that 
it la relief for the taxpayers that la being gxwnUd, re- 
lief for the property owners. The school boarda have been 
told arid the municipal councils have been told that the 
taxes ffluai be out by approxlBetely the sBount of this 
Srart that is being made this year. I Just Bsntion that 
■o that there may be no misconception about this Batter. 

MR. JOLLIFTS: There la no doubt at all that thia 
development will be very welooae to all the Buniclpalities 







! YIS*' 

^*.lo IbJoJ p.. 'lom 

ii.''5 sew i9:t^fi£!T 


■ 91, :?: noil- 


to oeccrruo exit at JariT 





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oo loodoe 

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.B«»xi ^aq o;f ^v&d \9Ai tBdi 

'•f»f^"- - ? B:(nacf 

.Jtj0oub0 avoiqiai o* ©as 

r-^xonyoo xaq JtoJtiXiJxa »rf ^loJ 

:i'3i Qsa.lxoiqqa ^d *iJO ed ;Jewfli edjcatf 

.'Xci:^ '^^ afism anied el J«ri;t ^faeia 

:q«Ofioaa ad xm. 9i0riJ ;JsriJ oe 

- 1B07 - 3-14-46 


And sohool boards throughoot the provlno*. At tb* last 
•••alcn of this L«glslsture on* of my ooilsaguea, I bo- 
llsTa It Wis tha hoit. mambar for Tamlskanlng (Ur. Taylor), 
urgad that stapa ba takan to maka an advanoa paynant to 
aohool bourda aarll ar In tha yaar than had baan tha 
praotloa* I put forward tha aaoM auggaatlon thia yaar. 

Undoubtadly tha Oovamiaant la to ba congratulatad 
In that It finds itsalf In a poaltion thla yaar to propooa 
maKing {.hasa aavancas to tha aobool boards of tha proTlnoa. 
It will oartalnly naan a aavlng to tha school boarda in 
liitercat ohargea. It will oartalnly make It zauch aaalar 
for then to flnanoa tholr oparatlons ouring tho year. I 
have no doubt that the Govern: ant la to ba oougratulatad 
In that thla oan ba dona this yoor a* a tine »hon tho 
Govcrnaent may ba looking fcr.aru :o u f^nerfii :: 
and when aaal stance to tha mjnioipalltloa nay have aciaa 
bearing on tha altuatlon In that ganeral a loot ion. 

But tha point I wlah to nctjca is tiuit thia larga 
advance of nearly ^9,00C,00C which It la propoaed to vote 
Out of the aurplua of thla year's rovenuea was roolly 
made possible by the taxpayera of Ontario. 

LR. UaoLSOD: Hear, hear. 

Lin. J0LLIF7E: It aaa nada poaalble by the tax- 
payers of Ontario who, by reaaon of the greater voluaa of 
buslnaa in wartlna, have contributed more than ever before 
to the provincial treaaury. It la they really who have 
made it poaalble for the school boarda to get tbia aaaia.ance 
by way of the provincial treaaury. 

But I cannot help wondering exactly iftiat tbe poaition 
la going to be in one or two years from now. Tbe Ooverncent 
pronoaea very larga increases ir aaalatanea to tbe aobool 
boarda, and we are not oppoalng thena inoreuaea for xviaona 

- yOSX 






- ItOe - 3-U-46 

Ur, Joliiff* 

wbieh bavc frequently b««n indio«t«d* 

But what la raally happening at thla tiB« la that 
about one- half of those inoraaaaa to the munlclpalltlea for 
thalr financial yaar fron January 1 to Daoambar 31, 1946, 
la btlng appropriated out of laat year 'a aurplua and the 
other half vlll be financed. 

MR. FROST: The figure la about one- third. 

MR. JOLLIFFC: For the total It will be ebout one- 
third. But about one-half the Idoreaae la being appropriat- 
ed out of the surplus on thla year'a operations for the flaoel 
year ending March 31, 1945. I think the Prorlnclal Treaaurer 
will agree that that la correct. 7^ aaslatanoe to the 
municipalities la being Increased by about $17,000»000 to 
bring It to about $25,000,000, and of that Increase one-half 
la to be voted out of thla year's surplua and the other half 
Is to be found from next year's operations. I hope the 
Provincial Treasurer will find It, but that renalna to be 

Much aa I welcome this aaslstance and am glaa to 
aee the munlclpalltlee get It at a tlae wben It la going to 
do thaffl moat good, I have this comment to make. In his 
budget speech the Provincial Treasurer waa able to report 
and he took juatlflable pride In reporting, a surplua of 
nearly $9,000,000. That received widespread publicity. 
I do not want to take away any of the aatlafactlon which 
the Provincial Treaaurer muat feel in being able to report 
that aurplus, but I thlr.k the public should clearly- uM*r- 
atand that, as the Provincial Treaaurer hlaaelf hea > ntion- 
%Af the actual aurplua on thla yeer*a operatlona, if ^heae 
aupplementary estlBatea are voted, will be ebout $114,000. 
That Is what the Provincial Treaaurer aald, end I agree 
with him. 


'i i. faT 


"tT '-i,>.rv 


Mr. Jolllffs 

Tbe publlo therefore should be under no illueione 
about that nine or ten Billion dollar surplus beosuse in 
order to carry out the ooaBBitaents vhloh hSTe been nsde, 
and whioh in principle have been sppreved by the Uouae, it 
will be neoeaaary to spend over $e,000»000 of that aurplus 
In Inereased oducatiunal grants. 

I think that ia about all 1 hare to aay. I tm 
not desling at the mcment with the queation of eduoationel 
atendards beoausa the queatlon before the House now is 
whether «o should authorize this aaaiatanoe by nay of 
advances to the school boards of the province. 

MR. DREV: Just so that the record will be quite 

atraight I ahould like to quote from Uauaard vhat I aaid 

the other evening when in moving the adjournment I stated 

the bus ire ss we would take up. It will be found at page 

1002 of Hansard, where I find thla: 

"Mr. Jolliffe: If the Throne debate 
ia to be continued on Tuesday* when will 
the budget debate be reaumaA? 

*Mr. Drew: te will first consider 
the Supplementary Katimatea. That of 
course is not the budget debate* In 
any event we ahall proceed with tbe 
Throne debate on Tueaday, and I shall 
be very happy to confer with tbe leadere 
of the different groupa as to resuming 
the budget debate.* 

MR. mPBURN (Elgin): I quite agree with the 
Prime Minister. I ssid that I waa speaking frai 
memory. I have since obtained e copy of Hansard , and 
what the Prime Miniater haa Juat read la quite correct. 
But I am not so much concerned ebout that. Wliat I am 
concerned about ia the matter of procedure. My hon. 
friend a on the Oovernnent benches who form the ruap 
gaverment in this House speak glibly of British parlia- 
mentary practice and procedure. 




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- 1210 - 3-li-4S 

Mr* Bcpbura 

Undttr British nrnetlc* and proc«dure, iib«n • 
OoTernmcnt meets pariiamexit it subait:} Its l«^lslatiT» 
prognuB f«r the conaldaratlon of the House. Tho 
Spoech from the Throne is read by the Lieutenant 
Carernor, and It la felioved by a debate In vhlofe 
■ambers from all sides participate. 

On thla oceasion the Addraas In Beply to 
the Speech from the Throne was botoA, and subaequontly 
two amendments were moved to that motion, one by ttao 
Loader of the Opposition (Ur. Jolliffo) and the other 
by myself, and so the fate of the Oovernmont la definite- 
ly hanging 1: the balance until those amendaenta are dis- 
posed of. 

I want to say quite frankly and emphatically for 
the benefit of the people of Ontario that so far aa ttala 
group Is concerned we Intend to put thla Tory gorernaont 
out at the first opportunity becauae «o hOTo no eonfldonee 
In this Goyernment. Nor do I see how my hon. friend tbo 

Leader of the Opposition can oaoape hla own worda, booauao 
In moving his amendment ho said that ho had no oonfldono* 
In the Government. 

MR. JOLLIFPB: There la no queatlon of any Mtapo. 

UR. HEPBURN (Ilgln): All right. Then tbo 

GoTernment Is dooaoA and It a Imply awaits Ita death aon- 

tenco when 52 BOBbora are going to tou agalnat it. I 

aay» Ur. Spoakor, that thoao MKondBonta ahould bo voto4 

on before parlloBont la aaked to vote any auBs of Boaoy. 

That ia the Brltlah parllaaentary practice. I quote again 

Rule 114: 

•The Comltteo of Supply — • 

which is the ovQiaitbee which votea t.a« m^ney : 

"-- and of lay a and llaana aro appointed 
en motion, without provloua notice, at 





- lail - 5-14-46 

■r.Bapburn - ll^ii 

th« o«iB«ncaBent •t ••eb ScssIob, •• 
••on as an addrtsa tea baan agraad f 
In answar f tba apaaata af tba Llautanant 

In ethar words, or in plainar lan^iuga, tha 
laglslatlTa prograa of ttala Buap c*varuBa&t haa not baan 
•pproTad by the najorlty of tba aaabara of ttala Hauaa» 
•Bd ae I think it la unpraoadanted for the OoTarnaant ta 
aak us to Tot« money to an organisation ahloh, aaoordin^ 
to the Laadar of the Oppoaltlon hlBaalf, has not ttaa ocs- 
fldanca of this Laglslatura. 

k succaadlng goverunant nay ravlaa tbaaa aatiaatat* 
Bay even rerlaa tbam upwards and gl%Bora aquitabla and 
fair treatment to the sehool boards throughout the length 
and breadth of the provlnoe. This OoTernaant haa not • 
monopoly of all the political Tlrtues or promlaaa, and ao 
I say, Mr. 3peaker, that It la better that »e ahould firat 
deolde whether this Goyemment has the confldanoa of thla 
Legislature before the nambara hare aaauma the respon- 
albility of giTing the GoYarisant a blank eliaqua to 
azpend aoiia $6,000,000 in fulfilment partly of a pre- 
ale at ion aMHaltmant. 

k» a matter of prinolpla I say that tl&la motion 
la entirely out of order, and aa far aa thla group la eon- 
oerned we are going to oppose It avan to tba paint of 
aaking for a racordad rota upon it by tba mambara of tba 

MR. DREW: I haTe not apokaa on tba motion, Mr. 
Speaker. I roaa a f aa minutaa ago merely to oarreat tba 
hon. maabar -- it la baoomlnt almaat a regular practice -- 
In regard to a atatamant ha had made. 

So far aa thla eatimata la concarnad tbla la 
neither a blank cbaque nor has it anything to da vitb 

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- liU - 3-14-48 

Mr. I>r«« 

•ntlolpcttd •zpsnsea for th« coalng yaar. It 1« a 
motion vblcb oould bavt b«en m«d« at anj tla«. It !• 
%• ptrmlt th« pftynant out of tho paat year's funda of 
|e,000,OCO to tba achool boorda of tbla pr«Tiooa. 

At flrat It la aaualng but tban It gata tlr«- 
aoma to bear tba bon. Baabar far llgln (Mr* Bapburn) 
oontlnually gattln^ up and tbraatanlng tbla Oararxk- 
Bant. X bara Bada It parfaotly olaar tbat aa ara 
liara aa a gararnBant only aa long aa tbla Ltglalatura 
aupporta ua In tbe House. Tbat la all. 

(Page 1213 follaaa) 


- 1213 - -3-14-45 

UR. U. P. HEPDURK (EUln): Ur. SpMirar, all mm mmk 

is un opporiuuity to aeciae taut. 

MR. DHEW: «• undertook the responsibility of govern- 
mnt and we have carried on, and are villinff to earry on 
only ao long as that support is given. AOd since tne iion. 
■MilMr (Mr. Hepburn) ohallvnges this resolution, «e will 
acoept this resolution as a Tote of confldenee. 

MR. EDWIRD B. JOLLIFR (Toric aouth): Mr. tipmlnr^ 
since the Hon. member for Klgin (Mr. Hepburn) made a ref- 
erence to me, I want to say a word or two on the question 
of privilege. i want to say, in the first piAoe, tmt 
hiu use of the word "escape" in connection with im was Tery 
strange, because l indicated as strongly as 1 Imew how, 
as far back as august, 1944, that we had no oonfiaence 
whatever in the Government in connection with a certain vexy 
important Issue und what we regarded as an la sue on whioh 
it would be necessary for tnis House to ezpreas its opinion. 

It was not, however, until the month of October 
that the Hon member for Elgin discovered that it was an Im- 
portant issue, and discovered in fact wnicn way the wind 
was blowing, and suddenly became seized with anxiety to 
take a public stand in connection with that issue. 

Now« so far as voting confidence or no oonfiaenoe 
in the govertuaent, ay position and the position of th« 
■embers of the C.C.F. in this House is prefectly clear. •• 
wish to have an opportunity to express our opinion, bat 
we wish to express It, Mr. Speaker, on a question of 
principle, such as those embodlei in the aaendaent to the 
address, and not on a question f£ proceaure, no matter 
how ingenioas that amy be, — and the Bon. momber for 
Ilgln (Mr. Hepburn) is capable of some very Ingenious 
steps in tnut connection* Ana wnat is aore, vtaetter there 


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- 1214 - 


Mr. Joiiirr*. 

«aa soma alectlon nroala* or not, «• conoada It to ba Ottr 
auty to vota uu tiie ^ddraaa, and «a not oonoada it to ba 
our duty to dany to tha aohool boarda of this Provlnoa tliat 
which thay bave tha right to axpaot. 

I can sat my Hon. friand froa Sl^ln (Mr. Uapburn'a) 
mind at raat, that wa ara going to vota againat tha govam- 
■ant, -- I think ha haa Icnown that alnoa tha flrat of Aa^aat, -• 
but wa ara not going to ba dlTartad to vota agialiuit tha 
pasalng of sufflciant funda to aaalat tha aohool boarda of 

MR. SPii^KER: It la iitoTad by Ur. froat that I do 
no« Xaava the Chair for tha House to raaolve Itself Into 
OomBlttea of Supply to consider aupplaaantary aatlaataa for 
tha year ending March 31st, 1945. 

Those In favour aay "Aya". 

Call in the meabera. 

Motion agreed to as followa: 


Hon. George a,. Drew 
Bon. O. H. iX)ucett 
Hon. 0. U. Challles 
Hon. L. K. Blackwell 
Hon. L. It. Froat 
Hon. T. L. Kennedy 
Hon. G. H. Dunbar 
Hon. H. P.VlTlao 
Hon. f. 0. Thompaon 
Hon. Char lea Daley 
Bon. Dana H. Porter 
A. H. Aoraa 
T. A. Murphy 


M. r, Hepburn (Blgiii) 

U. C. Hlzon 

r. d. OllYer 

B» lAurler 

A. dt. C. Oordoa 

B. PatteraoA 
B. A. MoBvi^ 

J. rr«nlc Bally 
W. L. Miller 
Boy Doaaia 
B. Batla 

1. A. Dlokson 


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. 1215 • 3-U-45 

Tms (Contluued) my { Coatlna«d) 

R. Hobbs Taylor (Huron) Thcw Jl. iMff 

H. H. Scott I. A. IlioOllilTrAj 

▲. ■. Downer A. A. Mftoteod 

i>«Dt J. B. 3ftUb«rg 

R. D. Amott Mlson Ail«« 

•iiilam Duokvorth L* Hanoook 

Hon. W. G. labster B. flobaon. 

A. Kalao Roberta 

J. de C. Hepburn (Prince Xdwurd- 


W. B. Heynolda 

Hon. W. J. 3te«art 

T. L. Patrick 

W. A. Ooodf allow 

S. L. Hall 

J . J . Hunt 

|7. W. Banna 

b. H. Martin 

J. L. McDonald 

Q. a. Johnston 

J. D. MoPhee 

D. Molntyre 

J. A. Prlngle 

X. B. Jolliffe 

Misa A.Maophail 

George Bennett 

B. S. LeaTena 
Qaorge Lockbart 
0. Anderaon 

0. H. Millard 
A. A. Caaitalaan 


- eisi - 

G 00 

YiJ-xvilllOoaM .A .ii 






woXI eliiooi. 



Sl'XIX . 

iJ- .. .0 

- 1216 - 3-14-46 

Teas: (Continued) 

George I. Burvey 

Harry Steel 

C. U. Taylor (TeiaisiBamlnc) 

f. I. Warren 

0. H. liltoheli 
H. Connor 

A. WiillaBa 
C* A* iitrange 
Will lain Dennlson 

1. J. GruBBBett 

L. 0. Robertson (Waterloo South) 

L. !• Wlsmer 

J. J. Kehoe 

Mrs. H. M. Lucock 

William Robertuon 

f. 0. Hobinsoo (Port Arthur) 

H. 2. br oen 

R. D. Thornberry 

A. H, Carlln 

J. U. Cook 

W. 0. Rlggs 

Cyril Overall 

W. M. Dockor 

Boy dmitli. 

OL£HK 07 TUS tiOUJI; Ur. apeakar, the "Teas" are alxty-eu 
and the "Nay^" nineteen. 

MR. SPIAKIB: The Clerk reports the Teas are aizty-slz 
and the Nayes are Nineteen. 1 deoiare the notion carried. 


- dXSI - 



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xia-Y;rxia •is asaY aricr aiioqsa jiialO ariO. .HM 

.i>9ixi8o aciit^om axlt 6iaLo»b I .aas^aaiH aia aoY^ oii;^- i)aa 

- 1217 - 3-14-40 

Th* Bous« In Conalttvt of Supplj, Mr. Btynolds la 

th« ctmlr. 

TBM CIUIHiaH: Suppl«B«ntary •stlBfttas for tb« y^r 
•ndlng Ifaroh Slat, 1945, Dapartaant of Idaoatloa, Mo. 196. 

MR. 0. 1. HkSma (S. S. Harla): Ur. Cbalrwm, do 
you maan to aay aa ara going to TOta aaay aix Billion dollars 
without ona quastion baing aakad? I would Ilka to aak 
saveral quaatlona. I haard tha Hon. Uiniatar of Xduoatlon 
(Hon. Gaorga a. Draw) aay aomathing a whila ago about tbara 
baing aix thouaand aohool boarda in Ontario; and than thara 
waa talk about tha nuabar of aohool boarda liiloh had baao 
sat up and tha number of conaolldationa, and ao on. Would 
thla ba a fair tima to aak tha Hon. Mlniatar of Iduoatloa 
Juat how laany aohool boarda thera ara in tha ProTlnca cC 
Ontario, or how uany aehool boarda hava baan aat up during 
tha last yaar? 

I am very muoh ^n favour of oonaolidatad aohool boarda. 
I think it ia a crying ahaaa that wa ahould hava aix thoua- 
and aohool boarda in this provlnoa. I would Ilka to hava 
aoma raply ahowing what tha Hon. Mlnlater'a attltuda la tow^ 
araa tha aohool boarda wa hava or hopa to hava. 

nOH. GSOHOJS B. DSOM (Prlaa Mlniatar): 3o far aa our 
attltuca towaroa tha largar unlta, I hava on nuaaroua occaalona 
axprauaad my daaira that tha nuabar ahould ba incraaaad. 
Sixty- two naw unita hava baan foraad during tha paat yaar. 
Thara ara now a total of two hundrad a&d forty- two townahip 
unita throughout tha Provlnca, and tha indloutlon la tiAt tha 
nuabar la going to ba rapidly Inoraaaad, baoauaa thara la a 
largar Intaraat avidanoad In all parta of tha provlnca in 

Mr. hjunXT: Mr. ChalrMa. I only want to point oat 

a faatura of thla :iupplaaaatary Katlaata that haa alraady baaa 


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CC 6 - i£I6 •> S-U-45 

Mr. 0«ss«la«ix« 

ably dlsou8«*d by tti» laadar of tba oppoaitioa. This 
■athod of flnaiioing, to ay Bind, &lght oraata a problaa 
In tha futura. Uara «a ara paaalng a a upplaaantary aatis- 
ata on tha aurpluaaa of ona yattr in ordar to aaat part of 
tlia ooata of una yaar'a grant. Tha aurplua for tba fortb- 
ooiaints yaar will fulfil tha raqulrananta of tliat granf 

X vondar If Tba Hon. Provincial Traaaurar (kr. 
JTrottt) hA& conttiaarad what la going to happan naxt yaar, 
whan thia aaoa grant Boat llkaly will ba paid to tha munl- 
clpalltlas. It saaaa to ma that tha quaatlon of tha 
right of tha llkallhood of pa<ialnti aapplaaantary aatlaataa 
will not arlsa naxt yaar, beouusa thara will t« no surpxua 
naxt yaar to warrant any aupplanentary aatlaatea. I aa Juat 
pointing this out baoauaa It aaaaa folly to aa not to jaaka 
provision for Incraasad ravanua whan wa ara to aaat In- 
craasad costs, and taka the surpluses fron two yaars oper- 
ations to OB at one year's costs, I oan consider not a very 
good fiscal policy* 

I would Ilka an anawar to that aa to how It waa 
poaalble to finance the operatlona of thla province on thaa« 
aurplusesT Our granta ara taken oare of by the aurploa, 
froB all Indications In these aupplaaentary aatlaataa, and 
the aurpluses to be realized next year. 

BOir. LSSLIJC M. PBOST: I aa very glad to aaswer the 
qaeatloa of the Hon. aaaber froa daait ;ite. Maria. I oAnnot 
laaglna that he wanta to lapoaa any new tax. 

I noticed that the Hon. aaaber froa Haatlaga fast 
(Mr. Arnott) aalo aoaathlog about aauaaaant tax. There is oa 
fora of aauaaaent tax, -- 

UR, A. ▲. MbcLEOD (bellwooda): Tou ^9 aaared off. 

- 8iSl - 

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CC 7 - 12X9 - 3>1^46 

Ur. Frost 

UR. FROST: Mm ar« n«T«r vary auob Afraid «li«n *• 
liavt tuoU M •urpiua. I «b spMJclofi •ntlr«ly trom mmaorj, 
but «• liav« be«D ketpiots trftok of tbo DoaixUon-ProTloolal 
•groMiont pr«tty oar«fully, and my r«ooll«ctloa is ttxi; 
tiiat aft«r allowing tha oredita that «a raoaiva from tha 
gaaollna tazaa anu othar thioisa, — in faot I tblok tlia 
gaaoliiia tax la tha only itam frmm ah^oti «a gat in any 
paymaat of ravaauaa from tha iX)mlnion Govarnmant, -- that 
tha Dominion-Provlnolal agraamanta ara coating tha ProTlnea 
of Ontario, at tha praaant tlma, I think It la about 
twanty or tvanty>fiva million dollara a yaar, only apaaklng 
frcn mamory. If na had our taxing powara baok again, 

«a would ba reoaWing from tha Corporation tax, partloalarly, 
vary large suma. I think that the Dominion governaant 

reoelvaa aomathlng In the neighbourhood of ona hundred and 
thirty-five million dollara last year, from tha fact that 
we were out of the taxing field and they received tha pro- 
ceeda. «e would be receiving a p<rtlon of that one hundred 
and thirty-five million dollara If it were not for the Dob- 
Inlon- Provincial agreement. 

I aay to you, Mr. Chairman, that we entered Into that 
agreement gladly baoauaa we were Intaraated in winning tha 
war above everything elaa. But, by reaaon of dolag tliat, 
we have loat conalderable revenua. I oamot tall my friend 
what the revenue would ba, but, apaaklng aa tha poet Tanayaoa 
did, "It la hard for tha aya to«ee"; and It la hmrd to say 
beyond the twelve months what tha Province will reciiva froa 
tha taxing agreement In the future. But If tha taxing 
agraamant ware wiped out, we would have acme difficulties, 
navertheleaa, in tha long pull, provided we have a proaparous 
aoonomy after tha war; and we ara not looking at It from a 

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CC8 . 1220 - 9-14-45 

a«f«atl8t staadpolnt, b«o«ustt w tlilnic Canftda la ipinc to 
go alxaad very wonaerfyilly. 

AM I say, Xh» agr««m«Dts In tlio aantlat, ar« 
costing a« t««nty or twanty-flv* million dollars a yaar 
by raaaon of ttia fact limt wo hava mtaaruan froa tnoaa 
flalds of taxatl on. 

Mbv, our preuant problara la this: Wa do not want 
to imposa naw tuxaa on uur paopie, ana wa want to conaarva 
our oradlt, and «a want to kaap our paopla fraa, and wa 
want to ba abla to alt around tha confarenca tabla and 
aaka a good agraamont not only for tna paopia of our 
Provlnca but for tha whola of Canada. 

I think this Housa will agrea that wa hara dona 
aTarything that this or any othar Goyernoant snouia do, 
la ordar to conserva our poaltlon. 

Uy frland aaka about tha yaar 19k7. Wa hara 
glvan tha raport for tha year 1944-45, and wa hava givan 
a foracaat for tha yaar 1946, and I think It la aa 
accurata a foracaat as can ba glvan with tha infomatlon 
thdt wa have on hand for tha yaar 1945-46. 

Wa can promise tha Housa thla, and tha paopla of 
Ontario, that if wa are hara a yaar from to-day, wa vill 
bring in a budget wuicn wixi aatlsfy tna paopla of Ontario; 
and 1 would say thla, furthensora, in aoonaotion with tlia 
School Boards, that there is anothar natter ,— 

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- 1221- 3-14-43. 

VR, JOSEPH B. 3ALSBER0 (St. yjidrov) : *Tnuid th« boo. 
Mlnlater (Ur, Frost) mind If I a«k if that proaia* oonatitutes 
Point No. 23 now? 

MR. FROST: Oh, we hav« made a lot of pronisea in 
addition to the twenty-two which wa have oorriod out. But 
there la another point I would like — 

m. UITCIIELL F. IIEPBUFN (Slfiin) : Ur. CtaalTMB, BJ 
hon. friend {lix, Froat) aaid that he coxild not foresee into 
the future for another twelve months, and no? he says be 
foresees another surplus. :!ow does he reconcile those two 

UP. FROST: Hell, I have confidence in Canada and in 
the province of Ontario, and in the Party I form part of, 
and I am satisfied we can do a good job. 

UR. HERBERT CCIINOR (Hamilton East): Have the rest 
of the Cabinet the sane confidence in their future? 

UR. DRE:?: Yes, we all have. 

UR. HSraURK (Elgin): Uy hon. friend (Ur. Frost) 
said he did not have the ability to visualize what will 
happen twelve months from now, and now he says he visualizes 
another surplus. How does he reconcile the two? 

UR. FROST: I;o porsoo con siona iiere ana lorocast 
irtxat changes will be made in our tax structure a year from 
now. Uaybe the hon. naoihBr for Elgin (Ur. Henbum) should 
have listened to that, we have to sit aown witn uo otnar 
provinces in the Dominion; there are a thousand and ona 
inequalitiea and differences and adjuatroonts to be con- 
sidered in our tax system. No one can tell what aAjuataaata 
Bay be nade, and there is no one knows what the act\ial 
methods might be a year from now. But I say this, that I 
have no doubt about the feeling of Canada, and no doubt 



. 1222 • 


about the feellnG of Ontario, and I on satlaflvd that vhat 
«• are doing at tha present tioe Is aoxind, and vlll ba aat, 
and I think vlll bring great prosperity and aoployasnt to 
our poople in the move «e are oaking at the present tiaa 
and the moTRB v;e vlll make in the future. 

Nov, to get back to ay hon. friend from Ooult ste. 
Uarle (L!r. ilarrey) : once the school boards receire a 
grant payment, the situation nay not be as acute as it is 
at the present time. Generally speaking, it is ay belief 
that the grant to the school boards should be paid in three 
payments — 

IkR. L. GRSIVE ROBDISOII (Vaterloo South): !:r. Chair- 
man, the same tax agreements rrill be in force nov vhich vere 
in force last year, and if ny msoory sorres as right, the 
hon. Provincial Treasurer (Ur. Frost) forecast a surplus last 
year of $209,000. 

LR. FROST: I tried to be on the safe side. 

UR. ROBINSON (Waterloo South): You certaiiuy vers. 
No doubt about that. I had no idea, at that time, you vould 
realize such a marvellous surplus as almost $9,000,000, and 
vhen you forecast another one of $69,000, 1 just voaaar if 
you are fore costing that on the saiae basis as you forecast 
the 0^09,000 last year. 

Nov, If there is anything you should disclose to us 
irtilch vould make a more accxurate picture of uhat vould be 
realized at the close of next year, ve should like you to 
do so, because it vlll assist the hon. asiiMrs of the 
Opposition in criticizing the Budget, and, really, an 
Inaccuracy of $9,000,000 is substantial. 

Nov, If the Budcot has been Inefficient to the extent 
of $9,000,000 in a year, that is a fairly sizeable sub, and 



- iw . '-^♦^»- 

then I think It should be conceded that the Budget has }>—n 
Inefficient, to ar« glad that you had the ^9, 000, 000, and 
an hon. friend here tells me that If a nunlolpal treasurer 
erred to that extent he would be fired. 

UR. HOVAHD E. BR07N (Welland) : Mr. ChalrMn, la 
the Totlng of this |8»000»000 for a school grant at thla 
tlae, it is something different than the school boards hare 
been accustoaed to. It Is something I heartily agree with, 
however. In the past I think school boards hare recelfed 
their grant along In September or October, or maybe later 
than that, and I belleTS, In regard to the two mills they 
received, most the municipalities barely recelTsd than by 
Chrlstoaa time. 

Now, the hon. Treasurer (llr. Frost) has possibly 
partially answered ay question, but are we going to rote 
this money to be paid at the end of Liarch to the school 
boards? TThat guarantee — What plan has the GOTomaent? 
Is there anything written into the regulatlona that the 
school boards will be able to say that on the 31st of Uaroh 
they will receive one third of their grsDt, on the end of 
June, or the first of June, they will reoelre the seeond 
third, and on the first of Soptent)er they can count on 
getting the rest of the grant? It Maaa to as there should 
be something written into the regulations of this new grant 
system, so tiiat a school board wouxu jmiov exactly whare it 
stands. ?a may go to work now and vote thla nonay, and 
for oil the school board knows, mavbc the Ooremoent will 
find itself m such a position zuat it cannot pay tas rest 
of It until just before Christmas. 

It seems to me at this time there should be sonethlng 
very definite, so as to protect the municipalities, so they 



tsfljOB pd b BmeBB *I 

- 1824 - 3-14-40. 

oan bo aure that tho money thot Is ^olng to eoae to tham is 
'golns to ooiae on a eertaln date, and I would 11^, to know 
from the hon. Ulnlater of Kduootion (Ltr. Dret?) if there ie 
ansrthinc; vrltten into the rer^ulatlona to thot effeot, md, 
if not, why not. 

MR. DRST: A0 far as that la oonoemed, tbe payaenta 
will be definitely payable after the budget ia adopted. 

;ai. BROVN: IJr. mnlater of Sduoation (t:r. Drew), ia 
there anythlnc in tho regulatlona auoh aa atotinfi; that at 
auoh a tino a school board nill know that on certain datea 
it con count on a cortoln a.-nount of uoney? It aoena to a* 
it ahould be In the ref^ulatlona, so thot every achool bocurd 
and every municipality will know exactly where it atanda. 

IJR. DR27: This will be paid, aa a matter of fact, 
aa soon as this amount ia voted. It will inaediately go out. 
And aubsequent amounta will be paid •- 

in, BROWN: ffhon? 

UR. DRBV: By September. 

UR. BRO^: Is that in the regulations, or Juat a 
proralae? Is it Juat -- iVell, nhon will it be paid? 

HOII. iESJ.IS P.. BIJiaWBlX (Attorney General): !!r. 
Chairman, there is no real danr^er, unleaa everybody ahould 
decide to vote Liberal. 

J5?. BROTH: llr. lliniater of Wueation (l!r. DrotrK 
I am acrioua obout this. It aeama i;o oe «e ahould ha to a 
definite answer, and it ahould be in tho roGulationa. Tou 
are assuming cne half the coat of oduoatlon in this provlnoa 
at Ontario. Are you £oins to tie ti;o honda or all thaaa 
achool boarda, or will they have a definite pronlae the Boney 
will be paid on the Slat of •'nrch, and on the lat of J>m% — 
or whatever it la govnc »o be - another payoBBt, ond again 
ci tho lat :>t .ieptomber ? It aeena to ■• we ahould hava a 

si xaf. - 

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- 12«8 - 5-14-46. 

definite atateuent, and the people of Ontario are entitled 
to know trhere the ooney la ooalns from, ani itmn it la 

UR» FROST: The preaent regulatlona, I think, call 
for the paynent of the money — I think it la on the let 
of August, But the fact la, In praotlee for a great mooiy 
yeara the money has not been payable until the money of 
October, generally, or aometlmea oven In NoTtaber. 

We realize the unfairneaa of that altuatlon, and tha 
fact is there are a nui^ber of other ooaea In vhloh paymenta 
to auniolpalltiea ore outlined, emd In the paat It haa baan 
the practice to pay them vory late In the day. 

We are anxious to Insist In municipal financing, 
and this la all part of our dealre to revcunp the whole altua- 
tlOn, and thla la the first sound step by making the flrat 
pay.-uent by the 31st of llarch. L!y own view Is that Instead 
of coming due In ^uguat. It will be paid one lulrd m July, 
and one third about In October. At the preaant tima a good 
deal of study haa been given to that ounatlon, and I oan 
only assure my hon. friend (Uc, Drown) that ne will hare to 
accept our good faith In the fact thot we axa making a wary 
advanced step In that regard at the rnwsent tlma. 

U). BitOWN: Yes, but Lir. Uiniater (Ur. Froat), wa 
have no aaauranoa about thla. You have gone Into thla whole 
bualneaa, and ore talking about re-vaqplng the situation, 
but the muni dpallt lea do not know wtiere they stand, if 
you will give ua a definite anawer here, that you will taka • 
thla Into oonal deration, and give ua on anawer Inter cm In 
thla aoaalon, and tell ua definitely whan theaa gianta will 
be paid, I think the Houae la entitled to knew, and I think 
the people of the pxovlnca of Ontario are entitled to know. 


©x(:f • bnn 

9W , (^8 




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: i :^ i i li crlo lm;r;' e rf . 

- 1S86 - 3-U.45. 

UR. FROST: Z vlll aay to my hon. friend (Mr. Brown), 
in anstrer to hla question, that, after ell, you har* to deal, 
In this vorld, on good faith and good bualneea praetlo*. 

My reoollootlon la that In thla Houae laat year all 
the hon. noobera In the Houae aupported the plank which ww 
familiarly called "the fifty per cent, of education," with 
the exception of the Liberal group, who oppoaed it. The hon. 
member for Brant (Ur« Niion) did not think it could be dona -- 

U). NDCON: We are a till dubious . 

IIR. ?ROST: He aaid he tiiou^u ao ODuld bo conTercad, 
and if he could he would move over to thia aide of the Houae. 
?/e have not been able to find a choir for him yet. The hon. 
meaber for Brant (Ur. Nixon) will recollect thia, that laat 
year the Qppoaltlon said to the GoTemment, "When are you 
going to do tliia?", and it all agrees with tnia oromiae in 
connection with fifty per cent. of the coat or education — 

IS. NIZQI{: And what did you aay? My hon. friend 
(Ur. Frost), said that this waa ao conplicated and intricate 
that they would have to have a Royal COBBlaaion inquire into 
the whole thing. Where is the Royal Coomiaaion? 

UR. FROST: Oh, no — 

W. NIXON: Oh, yea, you did. 

UR. FROST: !• had a tramandoua nuidber of tax bllla 
to examine, and that naturally required a little bit of tima 
to work it out and make it work. 

UR, NIXON: Did you not prcniaa thia Uouaa, in your 
Budget a >ear ago, that there would be a Royal Coooiaaioa to 
InTwatigate all phaaea of education, and that your naw aystaa 
of granta would be baaed on the report of that CoonlaaionT 

UR. DKS3: There certainly will be a Royal CoHolaaloii, 
and one of the Jud^a of the Suprono Court haa bean working 
for aontha on every phaae of thia. ^^a I have publicly atatoA, 






• ies7 . 9«i««as. 

•vory phaj« of this irili be oxamlo«d, 9« do not, for oo« 
minute, any that thlt, to-d«ar, is tit* final ratult, ?• vlll 
havo tho whole ayatea of education In this proYlnoe axHilnad 
thorou«^ay, and at the prtsent tl;^ uiny briefs ore In ; re- 
p^^ratlon for thot purpoae, 

Tho intorestlnis fact Is that we hara oorrled out tba 
Texy suggestion nade by the hon. r.:anbar for Brant (Ur« Hlxon). 
Ha said «e did not need a :{oyal Coaniasion, and 90 have .uide 
thla pa^taent ulihout a import froa any Cotaai8slon» and this 
is en arrangaioent, alao, nhioh will bo subject to study and 
revlaion by tho Hoyal Cooualsaion. 

The hon. i.ukAber for l^rant i'Jr, Uixon) was on the 
Goronuaent side, horo, for ten years, and had a enct deal 
to eay about aaauoinG the oost of educuiioa* but never did, 
at any tirj». 

UR, NIXON: V/e oortainly aaauiaed acre and oore of the 
cost of eduo&tlon, aiid our o]q;>eadi lures in this prcvlnoe vera 
many alllluna higlier than when we oaaa la, in 1934. You wlU 
adnit that? 

UB. DRS:7: Ur, Chalroan, I quite aporeclate the point 
nade by the hon.neobor for Brant (Ur. Ilixon), but ha mat not 
OTorlook that thla year is not lust year. This yaar any ba 
an oluotion year •- 

UR. USPBUBR (Slgln)t Lay ba? Don«t worry; It will 

UR. JOLLIVfl: Utt Chalroan, wa haTs Got off tha point 
raised by the hon. osciber for iTalland (lar* Brown), and X 
think his point is lmi)ortaat. I aa not oaklng any abargaa 
agalnat the preaant administration or a previous adalnlstra- 
tlon. but I aa Infomed that aoaa board* hava baan abla to 
get their grants earllor than other boards. 




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a, axji- - ,341: 

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- 1228 • 3-14-4B 

m^U it thoro zaty b« 0»od reaaon for that, i think 
tho bon. iToaauror lUr, rroat) or tba bon« Frlaa lllalawr 
(Ifr* I3ire«) oueht to a^raa vitb xoa that it la not a rery 
aatiefaotory situation. It faolXltotaa tha plaxlng of 
favourites as botwaan dlfforant lioarUa, If any GoTamaant 
la asaignod to do that kind of tbingi 

JR, :r03T: Iba oUaquoa all go out at tho aaaa tint. 

IStt JOLLiYT^: Thoy oay all CP out at tha aona tlna, 
but If they do, It Is stranco that oooa Doarda tell ■• 
they rooelva theirs at one tin of the yoar and othara at 
othor tloaa of tho year, so thoro tsust be a difference of 
the tloa taken In tha sails --a dlfferenoe of several 

3o there la reel substanoa m tba auggaatlon put 
forvrord by tho hon* laanber for Holland IJOr* Browi), naBsly, 
that there should be a sohadula or tloa-tabla sr aonathlne 
of that kind, ae that tho Joard will know vlthln a ■DBtb 
or two anyvmy iditn thoy srlll gat tbalr Inataljaanta on oooovnt 
of their sranta. 

It taay not be possible to oonpute until lata In tha 
day hov7 muoh they are entltlod to, but I think It ahotild ba 
possible to work out soaa kind of an Instaloant ayatam 
aubject to final oaaasaioant, whloh would enable then to 
know where they are at. I think that la a raaaombla au^ 

Ut« moa'S: fe certainly aooapt that aa a raaaeoabli 

iJl, imJiU: itr, Chalrsoan, f Irat of all, tho ohaqiMS 
all 6P out at the aa» tint* There oay be apeolal oaaaa 
whara aona arraageoBnt is .-oode, but thora la no raoaon to 
ausoaat that fovouritoa are being played* i fool aura 

:movc . 'b (T8-. 

• ;-w. ' . . .. 

tii, ■-:*-.;; _ '""OO • Vi. 1.... 


-1K9- 3-14-46 

Ifr. Srov. 

that the hon. Leader of tha Opposition (ICr. Jolllffa) baa 
had aufflclent contact rrlth achaol board* to undaratanA 
ItAi oircvuas canoes ariae vtiicn call :or a oonauKatloa 
batwaen tba Oepartnant and the school boards, and uadoubt* 
edly thero are certain reasoro far such a consultation, 
x» to the general list; they all go out at the sojae tins* 

I, too, agree there is rery considerable oarlt 
In the suggestion th^t in suoh a Banner that the boarda 
will have an idea as to when they will eet thaa* %f ara 
doing this right now, beoause «• beliere the boards should 
be Bssistod in their financing, and that is the raaaoo. 

LB. C. H. TIYLOR (Teniskanlng) : Kr. Chalraon, In 
▼lew of the faot that I think I was the instigator of tlia 
suggestion of advancing the aohool boarda aoney in advanoa 
to the date set, may I say that I did so for sore reaseaa 
than one. 

I think the rials reason has been that the school 
boards now have to pay fire percent Tot this noney, oad 
the province borrows It for loss. I auKed this question 
of the hon. Prioa Ulnlatar last year and, ha aald be woold 
look into the setter, and that In oaccoptlonal oases this 
oould be done. I oq very thankful to the hon. Minister of 
Sducatlon (lit. Drew) and the Departoent for harlng aaan fit 
to aocept us as an azoaptional case and give us a grant at 
an earlier date. It aaved the town of Cobalt approzlaataly 
one fiull on the tax rate. Ttaat bears out the oontantlon of 
a previous figure that we should have sonathlng definite 
in the regulations as to when we may ezpeot the aonay. liQr 
guoss x» xami ohen the banka gat thair taath into this prop- 
ositloOf ard tiad thay ara ^Ing to loae this Interust, tliay 
will sand a few afplloationa to tbo 9)TaniBaBt, liiothar thay 





xxiae a& 

Y^-i . ;i.i 

- 1230- 3-14-45 

will be postpoDlng the further pajaente* end putting the 
situation baok to vbere It »ae in the prerious year. 

3012B BON. tSiiB2Rii: No, no. 

UR. TAYLOR (Toffliekaaizie) : I hope this vlll be con- 
sidered as a prooedent, this adopting of the supplenentarj 
estimates for adranelng the school grants te an earlier 

Now, the hon. ProTinoial n^osurer (Ift*. nrost) 
stated a while ago, rather jocularly, that he Mtde a l«t 
of promises other than the twenty- two points, which he 
had fulfilled. I would like to draw his attention to one 
he made which he has not fulfilled, and eren these inoreaeed 
grants In advance will not redeem him in the eyes of the 
people up there, i will have a little more to say abeut 
that later on — 

le. FROST: tfe will try to get that smelter open up 

UR. TAYLOR (Teoilskaming) : But 1 de want to urge — 
and I think it is worthy of very prompt action — that 1% 
should be provided in the regulations that these grants 
will be paid at specified times. 

I am also wondering trtiat is going to happon the 
following year. This year you are basing your plaBS on the 
proportion of costs of last year's coots of education, and 
in our case, in o\ir hi^ school, wo get seventy-five 
percent of our costs of education based on lost year** 

Now, next year, because a nunlo ipa lit y will nojl poy 
fourteen mills or over, which is the oatogory up«n which the 
seventy-five is based, but it will be five mlllo to tho 

. to r^rB'.^ .tA 

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- U31 - 3-14-45 

Iff. T^jUr 

taxpayers of Cobalt. .7111 our tax rata ba roduoad oorraa- 
pondingly naxt yaar? 

m, oesv: I think I oaB aaka this rary dafinita. 
Tha hon. Provincial Traaaurar (IT. ?toat) hiteelf axplaiaad 
tha reason wa ara anxious to do thla aaa In faot tba vary 
raason you pointed out, and ahloh I recall tha hon. aabar 
for Temlskamlng (Ur. Taylor) mantlonad last yaar. 

Now, our purpose is to aaslst tha school beards In 
their financing and these paymeats earlier cure a rery great 
assistance to theau 

JUst as soon as the budget Is passed, w will ttaaa 
be in a paaltlon with the school boards as to tha tiaa thigr 
will receive a later payment* 

m, HOWARD 2. BROWN (Velland): It. Chalrasn, I da 
not think that is good enough; I think this House shauld 
knew and the people of Ont carlo have a right to knew. Z da 
not think we should go back home thla yaar wlthaut a 
definite assurance of when thla xoanay will be paid to tha 
people of the province of Ontaria. 

It saeos to na that the hon. Idalater of Bduoatlaa 
(Mr. Drew) or the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Troat) 
should give definite assurance when this aoaay will be paid. 
I cannat see any reason why they will not aay they ara 
goine; to pay It on the 31st of Uarch, — the first Interia 
payment — that they will be paid again In JUaa, and agaia 
later in the fall. I think we should have aasuranca fram 
the hon. ministers that thla will be put into tha rasnl*- 

m, dRSJ: Here wa are dealing with the paymsat of 
16,600,000.00 and that will be paid right awy If thla passaa 
hare to-day. Diat la definite • Aa far aa tha etbar la 



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aex ijjuia. 


loT lot 

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;00« 008,8^ 

- 1232 - 9-14-45 

l&r. Drew. 

conoarntd, that can ba daalt with at tba tloi wa ara dla- 
cuaaing tha budgat. 

UR. A. A. CASasUttN (Nipiaaiim) : Z thiak tha tea* 
manibar for /fallana (Ur*. Brown) should net gat tao parturbad 
and praas tha Govarnmazft tao hard, bacauaa ha abould raaaHbar 
whan anothar yaar ralla around, thay will not b« tha Cavar»- 

:iCi;. GEORGS H. DtOfBAR (lUnlatar of L'unlclpal Affaira}: 
I am rathar aurpriaad, Itr. Chairmn, liatanlng to tha raaarka 
of SODS of my hon. frlands and particularly tha hon. aaabar 
for dfalland (Mr. Brown), aa ha balng in tha Town Counoil of 
Valland, or tha City Council, that ha waa not parturbad at 
that tloa regarding tha aubaidy. Thara haa baan a ona«Blll 
subaidypaid for a great nximbar of yaara. Did yau •w warrj 
whan that would ba paid, in council, baoauaa thara waa aa 
data nantioned. 

UR, BROIW: It did not do any good to worry. 

le. IX7NBAR: Ihe ona-mill aubaidy paaaad thraugh 
thia House and na tina waa apacifiad. 

Hay I aay that we haya had great difficulty in 
receiving returns from the anmlolpalltiaa, in order ta 
know what we should pay ttaaa. To-day, with tha aohool 
baarda of tha proYlnoa of Ontario it is vary difficult, 
aa the hon. klniater of ijduoatian [Mc. ZTaw) can tall 
you, — to know what wa ahould pay than, bacauaa wa hara 
not racoived the returna for the axpandltxirea laat year. 

During tha month of January, a caupla of tsxmshipa 
down in Morth Renfrew, whioh had not raoelTed tnair aub- 
aidy, oeqplalnad to the hon. ivabar for Horth Renfrew 
(Mr. Bunt)aad wa lacked it up, and found wa bad net ra- 

'-ai.- oiB ©' 

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- 1£33 - 3-14-4S 

oelTtd any report Trmn that tovnahlt) aa ta vtiat thair az- 
pandlturea wore, asci aooordia^ to uie Aot a raiurs a&auld 
hara baan placed in the handa of the Dtpartaaat af 
Uunlclpal Affairs. 

So I say to you bon. gaBtlasMB tbat a part af 
that raaponalbillty reata with the aohool baard and tha 
mnlcipalltiaa to aae that their returxia are In tha handa 
of the Dapartoant of i^iucailon. i'eu oannat expect tarn 
te receive, aay ^100,000.00, unlaaa we know they ar« 
entitled to that full $100,000.00, based on tha azpendlturea 
last year. 

Veil now, what are you ihaking your head abautT 
Oaea that not ault you, up In North Bay? 

ISR. A. A. CASSSliUM UUpisslngj : I think that U 
about the weakest explanation 1 have ever heard In this 

lit. DUNBAR: Your returna were not In early fr«B 
Nlplsslng, but, of oeuraa, knovlng you aa 1 da, I would net 
ezpeet you te agree with »• 

LR. M. F. HSPBURN (Sl«ln): Mr. ChairMiB, If I heard 
the hon. Prloe Mlnlater correctly a few almxtea ago, be aald 
he la paying thla aaney now, beoauaa ha conaldars It tha 
right thing to do. Were thoae tha warda you uaad, ifir. Priaa 

MR. DREW: I aald we ware anxloua te aaalat %te aohaal 
baarda in tae province in their financing* 

m, HIPBUBN: And yau conaidered it the right thing 
te do nowT 

m, DR2V: If wa did net conaldar it the right t&lat 
te do, we would not be prepoaing it. 

Ht. BEPBORHi Mr. Chairaaa, 1 waa Traaaurar of tta* 



» e 

jv aa 



• eax/cH 


- ■ ■ - oj 


- 1234 - 9-14-40 

lir. BtpbuTB. 

prorine* for mLMf years aaA I kB»w soMothiae atwut proTi»> 
oial flnaiioes, and v« know that ttaa acbool boards hart baaa 
daliberataly movad by th« prasant adBlBlstratiaB, baoauaa 
Vto 0»Tarnnent promlaad a yaar ago to taka ovar halt th» 
oosts of tha priaary and saoasdary acboal aduoatlon. Tbay 
actually owad tha snuilcl pall ties tha aun of tSS,000,000.00. 

Now, Mr. Chalraan, lat ua ravlaw, wlthaut prajudioa, 
thla wall calculatad soheoa sow baine put forward ta fiaol — 
and dallbarataly so -- tha paapla of ontaria. 

Tha paapla in tha ounlolpalltlaa oparata on a 
oalandar yaar, and tha province operates on what is kaawB 
aa the '^fiscal year**, which anda on the 31at ef lfea>eh, and 
maj surpluses which slight accrue during the period or that 
fiscal year, if not paid out before the 31at of Uarob, 
must bacoae part of the consolidated revenue acacttnt of tha 
province, ao that la tha reason for the usaue haate on tha 
part of this govarnoant to use the surplus aoouBOlatad ijn 
the last fiscal year te pay to the school boards dxirlBK 
their calendar year this money, lliera la no use trying ta 
escape a very obvious fact of this kind. 

ihat the goTaramnt praposea ta do la to uaa tte 

surplus, not to pay the oaamitaant ioada iaat year idiloh 

tatala the twenty-twa aillien dallara, but ta pay tt %e 

the school board te the extent of approxiaataly nine 

Billion dallara, and then uae tua aocuoulated aurplua, if 

aflj, of thla calendar yaar/suppleaant tha grant ta tha 

aaheol boards throughout the prarlBoe. i aay it ia a deli- 
berate effort for the purpose sx ioolias the peeple ef 

IB. VROST: They like ta be fooled thla way. 

' ©OfliVOT 


— Xc a b*»' 

Odt 80 


- 1S3S - S-14-45 

W. TfBt» 

lA. HEPBURN (Il«ln): That is aU right, m on and 
Interrupt ot. 

Ur. ChQiraao, I say that an aleotlon !■ InaTltablt, 
and the defeat of this Covemoant, and before the fiscal 
year ends there nay be another adainistratiTa power i<iioli 
Bay assist tho school boards on a oore equitable basis* 

There is no great satisfactisn in the prerinos 
because they are assuolng fifty peroent of the costs af 
educatiea. In seme oases, it is thirty peroent or forty 
percent; in sooe oaaas it is sixty percent or seTsnty 
percent. There is no equity er Justice in that* 

I still say that we will err in passing this sua 
ef aoney, because it was aocuaulated in the year the 
Cevernaent preoised twenty-tws million dsllara to the 
priaary and secondary schools of the proTlaoe* Oh, they 
paid alimony in the sua of about three milliona of dellars« 
and then they carry on into this year, and I subait it is 
absolutely irregular and should not be. 

IB* oOLUFFB I Ur, Chairoan, I oe not know ibether tha 
hon* Qsmber for £lgin ilCr. Hepburn) is being quite fair to 
the Government. After all, this procise was cade in 1949, 
and was not leapt in 1944, and the first steps towards 
keeping it are being taken towards the aiddlo of 1945| for 
a Tory oovernaent that is very reralutionary ; it is pretty 
swift trayelliag. 

It la perfectly true that tho thing was not done la 
1944, and there is an overlapping hera as between the calen- 
dar year of the school board and the xiscal year for the 

After all, the proaise was a bic one, and I da aat 
think we ezpooted — certainly aaybooy wbo has oaaa 

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Kr. Jolllff*. 

Pr^Tlsolal Treasurer, ai th« h«B« aaaidar for Ilgla 
(]ir« Bapburn) should oxpaot — that aont Tory ingaalaua 
davioa would bara to bo astabllabad la vdar f glip» 
tte public tbi ifl^assloB that tba proolaa oada aaarlj 
tw yoars ago la about to ba Jcapt* 

iPaga 1237 follawa) 



- erff 

- 1237 - »-14-4e 

Mr. B«nn«tt 

ETT (Windsor- 3«odwloh): Mr. CbalrMD, 

Z would liica to ask the Prlaa Mlnlatar a quastlon and it 
has to do with ona aspaot of tha aauoationai orancn t .at is 
oausiag municipal oounoils and aduoational authoritias 
soisa disquiatuda and soma oonoarn and tha '^uaation is this: 
Is tha grant mada with no atringa attacnaa to it or ia 
tha grant nada with tha GoTarnaant rasarving tha right 
io itsair to say how tha nonajr i3 aoant and what aiaount 
and what purpoaa bacauaa wa wara infor«ad in tha firat plao« 
whan tha grant waa nada it would ba oonditionad on a 
oorrasponding daoraasa in the tax on real eatata. 

MR. DREIf: No suoh atataiaant was aadc 

MB* MaoLSOO: Mr.Chairi»an. . 

IS* J0LLI77S: la Zbi of these figurea ootalog ap 


MR. MaoLBOD) No, I will gat to that later. 
I Ml glaTr"to^nTV*'i8 bothering your oonsoienoa, though. 

Mr. Chairman, I do not happen to hare a copy of laat 
year's Budget here, but I was wondering if tha ProTinoial 
Treaaurer , (Mr. Froat) who is alwaya vary obliging, would 
juat tall oa what tha aurplus was laat year. What aurplua 
did he aiinounoe in thia Houae last year, over-all- surplus? 

MR. 7a03T: I should atplain to ay hon. friand Cfr. 
MacLeod) last, year there wea a atataaeat In tha Bud^t in 
connection with ovar-all-surplus. That ia what I took 
atranuoua oojeotion to when in oppoaitioa* Thia year I 
mada no reference to each a thing and laat year only put it 
in for actual oompariaon. Aotual atatatient ahould be baaad 
upon your ordinary inooma and ordinary expandituras, and 
laat year, apeakiitg off band, I think it was around |9,000»000. 
Z aaj say this applies to the debt of the provinoa and 1% 







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r«fl«ot«d • saTinff of •t,300,000dollart. On« of th* wars 
I «• got the aurplua laat yaar vma by oloaa aoonoay and 

good admlDiatratioo. 

MR. MaoLBOD: Tba point I wantad to maka «aa thla: 
That aftar listaning to tha opaning ra«arka of ttaa Provinoial 
Traaaurar and bla listaolng of all tha banaflta tbat woald 
aoorua from what tha Govaraaaot propoaad to do, tbat bad 
tha gorarnfflant ahown tha aama aolloltada for tba aobool 
board laat yoar aa thay do now, In wbat nay ba a vary 
faithful yaar for thaa. tha aohool boarda of Ontario aboald 
actually hara raoairad 19,000.000 laat yaar in 1944 and 
that would have brought tha aorerniaant auob oloaar to tha 
pledga that It oiada to tha paopla of Ontario alaoat two 
yaar 3 ago. 

IIR. FR03T: iSlghtaan aontha ago. 

MB. lUoLKOO: Wall, I bappan to bava bara tba 

famous spaaoh da 11 rarad by tha Praaiar on tha 9tb Augoat 

last, whera ha dealt with this quaation, and ha aaid: 

"Tha one point whioh will taica aoma tiaa to 
complete is the transfer of tha main burden of 
educational ooata from real estate. The reaaona 
for thia are obvioua. ^e have what is probably 
tba moat oomplicatad educational structure in tba 
whole world. Immediately aftar talcing office, we 
appointed aooountenta with wide avparianoa in aobool 
financing to woric on this problem. Highly aicillad 
axparta of the Department of Iduoation have alao been 
engaged in this work. And for the peat two montba 
one of the outataodii^ judgea of tha luprama Court 
Of Ontario, Mr. Justice flope, haa been working on 
the aaaa taak. Soon a Royal CoaBlaaion. of whioh ha 
will ba Chairman, will hear argumanta from every 
point of view, and tiAan ohangaa are -aada thay will 
oe upon a sound baaia, worthy of tba place which 
education plays in building a healthy and rigoroua 
nation, aud with due regard to the very dangaroua 
difficultiaa whioh would ba anaountarad by amy an- 
digeatad plan of raasjuatmant . We are carrying oat 
exactly wbat we undertook to do. Those who aaggaat 
that we could have followed any other oourae bava 
at no time offered any workable plan thamaalvaa. In 
our deaire to get thia done, we certainly will not 
iotro4aaa half-baked lagialatioo, which would only 
aggravate the very aituation wa intend to cure and 
f lay tba foundation for bitter diaputea auoh aa have 

occurred in the peat." 

That la the end of tha quotation. 


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- 1239 - 8-14-46 

Now, Mr. Chair-nan. «• th« hnn. m«ib«r froa 
Sault 3ta Maria iMr. Marvay) bas polntad oat, wa ar* 
•t this Junotura oall«d upon to vota • pa/aant of 
18,000,000. or so as an adranoa on a auoh largar sua of 
aonoy ana toare are aoaoiutaly no proTisioD in this 
Budgat, 80 far as I oan sea, to taka oars of tba additional 
■aount axoapt tha 3tatamant that th« Prorinelal Traaaursr 
has mada as to his optoaiiatio outiooK for tha ruturs,aad 
tha paopla of Ontario ara tharsfora called upon to sxprsst 
their ooiifidenoa in the Gorernniant 'a prograaaa on the 
baaia of the old eoolesiaaticai defiaition of faith; tha 
aubstauoe of thinga hoped for and aTidanoa of things not 

Now, the Pro7inoial Treasurer says that the prorinoa 
of Gntario is losing 1^5,000,000 a year as a reault of 
a Doainion Provincial Tax agreemant. Peraonally, I did not 
thinic it was that high. I thought it waa aoaawhara around 
|15,000,000, bat he tcnowa caore about it. 

ABhHON. MBIBBB: A few ailllona is nothing. 

MR. MaoLIOD: No, a few laliiioQS is nothing, not for 
the Prorincial Treasurer. But the point ia this - that under 
the Dominion Provincial Tax agreernant tha Prorlnclal Treaaorar 
of this province is unaoie to iapose corporation or incoaa 
tazea until April let of tha second calendar year aftar tha 
calendar year during which hostilities cease between Canada 
and Germany, and not only (ieroianu out Japan. I a not tnat 
correct? Wall, that is correct. On that basis, then, it 
Will be iapossible for tha ProTlncial Treasurer, assualng 
that ha ia in power at that txaa, to hare this 116,000,000 
that now goes to the Doainion Ootrarnaant under tiM Doainion 
Provincial Tax agreement until tha fiacal year of 1946 
1949* That is correct. 

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MR. R0BIN301I (WaUrloo South): Viil tk» hmtm it 

MR. MaoLBDD: And amy not hmf it tb«a b«oaus«. 
of oourao. wo ar« not iu a position to say wban ttaa war 
with Germany wili and and oartainly »a ara not in a poaitioo 
to aay whan hostilltiaa with Japan will ooaa to an anA, but 
aran taking a fairly optooiistio viaw of tha situation it ia 
safa to aasuaa that not until tha fiscal yaar of 1946 - 1949 
will tha ProTiaoial OoremiMnt of Ontario hava a raturn of 
thosa ratranuas that aow go to Ottawa. .Vow. that to ■• 
oonatitutes daoaption in tha Budgat. I am not aoouaing 
tha ProTirtoial Traaauror of being deoaptlTa; I aay his 
figures are plainly deceptive because he has aabarlced here 
on a programme from which the Governaent has not had the 
courage to make any prorision. There are fields of taxstioo 
open to the gorernaent that it does not want to taice advantage 
of. and when I say 'fielda of taxation' I do not laaan 
retrogress! fe taxes 11 Ice aauaeaent tax, food tax. 4o. 

MR. fROST: What would you suggeat? 

MR. MaoLBOO: I am going to get around to that when 
I make a speech on it beoauae you have overlookaA aoaathiog. 
The thing I fear ia this: Thst tha government is dsngling 
this prise package in front of the people of Ontario in a 
critical moment iu its own life without any idea in Ita tiad 
aa to how it is going to make good so far as tae outstandiot 
portion is concerned and I think, if the Budget aaans anythiof 
at all, as I read it. tha ffovernment of this province is 
leading the paopie of untario up ou to a high aouutain o&Iy to 
daah them down ou the rook. 

MR. RIPBaim fVlffin): I have now before sa tba Budgtt 
of last year ana 1 find toat tne rrovinoiai rreasurer rapor%a4 
an over- all surplus of soaa |£7,000,000. 

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IB-0 - 1241 - 3-14-46 

f MR. 7K0ST: Just n^'l what I said in oooncotlon with 

tbat. Would you mind raadln^ tbB paragraph In which T 
dMlt with that. 

n. BEPBOM (Ilgln): Wall, I la not going to 
re-raad from tha Budgat for you. I juat aay that yoQ 
anoounoad an over-all surplus of 126,000.000. That 
Is oorraot. 

MR. nK>3T: No, it is not: 

MR. mPBURN (Slgln): At tha sama tiaa you took 

prlda in raafflriiing tha poaition takao by your laadar. 

with thaaa worda: 

"Daapita the above oettenent of tha munioipal 
poaition, it haa baaa fait that aora draatlo 
action should be tatcan. following la tha actual 
wording of tha policy of thla OoTarnaant as 
enunciated by the now Priae Miniatar on the 9th. 
July, 1943." 

and I quote: 

'^here will be a awaaping reviaion of our whole 
ayatan of real eatata taxation ao that tha ominc 
and improvement of hoaaa and farm land, which mn 
the very foundation of oar society, will not ba 
diaoouragad by exoeaaive taxation. As an initial 
step in that direction the Provincial Govemoant 
will aaauma at laat 60 percent of tha school taxaa 
now charged againat real estate.** 

Now, you made that statement in tha Houaa on tha 
16th Uarch of laat year at tha tiaa whan you raportad a 
aurplus of 

MR. FR03T: I thinlc n> noa. friend (Mr. Hepburn) 
should at laaat endeavour to ba fair. Tha fact ia that 
aurplua of |£6,000,000 involved Capital payaant and Capital 
disburaaaanta. H9 Icnowa iu aalng that figure he ia ^alead< 
ing tha Bouaa. «fhat I aaid to tha Houaa ia thia • that I 
did not like the uaa of the axpraaaion but owing to tha fact 
that you had ao long aialad the province by over-all surplus 
I put it in for tha purpose of coapariaon. I ohallaoga 
ay friand to read it* Tha aurpluA laat yaar on ordinary 


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aooount. which Is th« oim that oouats, «•• aboot |9 •000,000. 

MB. HXFBIBN (ll^n): I will say it «•« ao 
tll«ged surplua of |£7,000,000. 

MR. FROST: You know |£7,000,000 b«« nothiog 
■or* to do tlth this than th« bad in tb« aooo. 

MR. HJUnXJltM (Slgla) If you had any floatlog 

ooiuaitaaot you oould hava uaad tba sooay that year on tha 

I6th tfaroh tha aaaa aa yoa ara doing It In thla year. Z 

did not thintc for a miauta that you had a nat aurplua of 

127.000,000. I aa not ao atupld about it. You did not 

hava 1^7,000,000 of asaats ovar ordinary raranua for 

ordinary expenditura,but in endaavourios tha fulfilaant 

of your ooQuaittaant whioh you rafarrad to at that tina, 

you mada this illuminating atataaant whioh I think abould 

ba of intareat to tha Uousa: 

"The Gorernaent bas aeteriained that thla 
great transfer of taxation whioh meana the 
imposition of new prorinolal taxation ahall ba 
aooompanied by reforois in our eduoatlonal and 
aiunioipal systems, ** fro. 

or in otb<4r worda you intioatad to the Houaa on 16th )faroh 

of laat year that in order to do the thing whieh you prided 

yourself on, you would hare to impoae new taxation. Now, 

in order to get away from faolng up to your actual raaponal- 

bility aa the treasurer of this proTinaa you raaortad to 

thla kind of trickery of throwing last year 'a fiscal surplua 

into tha calendar year and aupplaaantlog it by anothar 

aurplua whioh might accrue In this fiscal year of tba Provincial 

OoTernaant. If you ara fair you will adalt you ara using two 

year 'a aorplus to tha floating coasdtaant. 

MR. FB03T: No. What wa ara doli« la thla: Up to tha 

Slat March wa have a aurplua of 19,000,000 and wa are paying 

a portion of that aurplua |6,600,000 to tha aunlolpalltiaa in 

the fiscal year of 1946. It la not doing anything except 









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r-7 - 1243 - 8-14-46 

b«ln« entirely honoured witb t&e people of Ontario end 
giving the hard pressed tax payers the break tbay are 
entitled to. 

MR. HBPBtail(Ilgio) : V&y aid not you do it last 
year. You had a surplus but you di4 not do it. The 
sltuttion is becoming a little more pressinc ■(^ "nore 
acute and you are resorting to this method of trlctcery. 
If you want to fulfil the oommitment made by your leader 
you could have done the same thing a year ago but yoa 
did not. At that time the members of the Bouse gave you 
a green light to go ahead. But I charge that you era 
using last year's surplus, te^ijefMfc^SCSbtf^ in order to 
fulfil the oommitment. Tou may as well admit it oecsuse 
people know it anyway. 

MR. FROJT: It is with a great deal of oleasure 
I attempt to anawwr this question. First of all we naTe 
reference from our friend from Rellvood (Mr. MaoLaod), 
supported by his ally member from Elgin. I want to say 
this: Netrer in my experience in this House haf« I seen 
such bitter disappointment aa exMbited by theae two aambera. 
They are tearing their hair because. . . . 

MR. HEPBURN (Kigiiij: No, I could not tear muoh on 
on mine. 

MB. PR03T: They are tearinfl: their hair literally 
in any event becauae we are aoie to carry out toia promise 
without imposing new taxation, without oreating new debt 
and doing something which they themselves said wa eoald 00% 

MR. MaoLIOD: Hill you then permit ma to aay thist 
I cannot accept your statement tnat you are carrying orat your 
pledge; you are mareiy amxiiig a down payment and tba tedgat 
makes abaolutaly no proTiaion whaterar for. 




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- 1244 - 9-14-45 

UR. FROTT: I thinic I 10a the hon. vaabar ■Tulrmln^. 
I h«To tbou^at oeforo tnat ae was a aouoting Thoaas. That 
is what ha la. He haa baan aaaoolating with JToa-Oleoa 
alttiog aorosa the floor of the House hera. Rls asaoalatli^ 
with ra-actionary aiixes - toe Lioerais - aiul aaaoer for 
tha County of Slgln - are such that they are warplos hi a 
Judgoiant. That is what is happaning. 

Now, let OM aay thia to tha naabar for Ballwood 
fllr. MabLaod) who pridea himaalf at tha prase nt tiaa under 
the name of 'Labour ProgreaslTe* . he is asaociating with 
people from the Liberal Party waose public adrartlaaaaat 
aaid '*We want you to do it Oeorga". We want you to bring 
In the Provlnoe of Ontario educational reform that hara 
been long overdue. Now, taitcing aoout educational refona. 
let ma gira you this: Doea the member from Xlgln (Mr. 
Hepburn) thinic that to improve the lot of the school teachera 
of this province, 160,000 achool teachera, in thia prcvinca, 
who have to do with the briogiog up of tha young of thia 
province, is not a great reform.. Just look at the increase 
that is being given to the teachera within the province. Bow 
about the member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) who aantionad tba 
fact that the grant had increased. I am telling you thia: 
That under nine years of Liberal rule that the increaa^d 
grant in the province of Ontario for the achoola aod for 
educational purpoaaa, my reoollaotior. ia around about 95*000, 000* 
After 16 months of reactionary Tory rale, to uae tba expreaaioo 
of the naoibar from iilgln, (Mr. Hepburn) you are getting 
$7,000,000 inoraaaa in grants. Three tiawa the grant. X 
thinJc my friend ought to be a little bit oonaiateut about thia. 
They aaid this - they did not thinic it could be dona aad tbay 
are disaprointed and now they are goashing their teetb becauaa 
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Ontario, aad it has gitran old aan Ontario a lot of raliaf. 
Tou go and tall your oonatituanta-fend I aajr this to tba 
■aabar from Elgin (Mr. Rapburn)- go down and tall your 
oonatituanta you ara oppoaad to thia and oaaa to tha Booaa 
and Totad againat |9, 000,000 baing givan to aohool board. 
That la what you did. Tou aaid ^a won't lat you do it, 
Oaorga", and to tha axtant of your ability thia aftarnoon 
you hava dona that by roting againat thia aotioa whioh 
would enaDla |tf ,000,000 to oa paid out to tha Provinea. 

I want to aay, in oonoiiaion this: Thaaa paopla 
who ara now so unraasoaabla and say - why don't you do thia 
in a hurry, and all the rest of it, lat aa aay thia to you; 
The raemoers of the Treasury Department or the ataff of tha 
dapartoant of education with your Traaaurar. and with tha 
Minister of Kduoation hare literally V otidfor waaica and 
■ontba with this very oomplioated aattar. Now, I say thia - 
that to ooma before thia Houaa after 16 months in office 
and to be able to present to thia Houaa a plan for carrying 
out ao great an opportunity should deaerra coauBandation 
and oongratulatioaa from tha SMmbera instead of a lot of 
straffing we are receirlng. I want to aay to tha C.C.F. 
they hare been ganeroua to that. The Labour-Progreaaiva and 
the Liberals have bean diaappointed. They ha?a ahowa their 
diaappointment that tuoh a thing should be dona instead of 
talcing pleasure out of the fact that auoh great baaafit la 
being asteoded to the teaohera and tha children of tha 
Bunioipalitiea of tha provinca of Ontario. 

MR. ORARUS R. MILLARD (Torlc .Weat ) : «a ara dealing 
with an itam in Supplementary Bstlmatea. |6.0S4.2fiO and I do 
not think we can consider that item ani oonsiaer tha oircuat- 
atanoea under which it haa to be Totad without having tha 
diatinct feeling that it ia risky. If not daagerous.f insnaii^ 


- a^ur 

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ddl .^t 6i>o-xsaes n»8d evad \9tii 

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..-v. ' 'srn? lioqqaelfi 

:ldaed ji -j^.e JauJ ;ro0l »dJ eaijei*6lq suIsieJ 

9tii Jo iieitlijio orf* Jana aaartoBa^ ©il^ o^ i>86cie^xd gaxed 

.c ) lo - an-f •».-^ t:,, fiiiBqlolnusa 

SnIIaefc e-xs »» ; I Je :AJJI^ .H 8&IflAHD . - " 

o] .^ap,d| ,ae^BiBl:tES x^A^naffaiqqtiE al m»il tvb dilw 

-ffluoiio ©ri;? f^f^?^ » inaiti ^axl^J lafci. ...« aao ew 3luiif? *oa 

Sit,-* snxvK ^x iloxriw lebflxi aeoaa^e 

Siilonanil.Bi/oiesfle 7 ei. ;J1 jarid^ gnilaal toaliBlb 

m . 124^ . 8-14-49. 

KB. MZLULRD: I concur, vholcboartttdlj, vltb tb« 
item taking tha surplus^ from this yaar and ualn^ It aa 
a down payment on a fuiflljjaent of a fifty per eant. over- 
all coat of education, and it la on that lt«B that I 
would rofer, for a Doaent. I would like toask the T>ro- 
Ylnciai xreaavirer or vom Hon. luniatex or itaucaiioa a 
question. Laat year I raieed, in my plaoa, hara in tha 
Legislature, T asked the hon. Minister of Education oa 
what baaia Uia granta were gxTazi, and i receiTed an anavaXi 
If I recollect correctly, (and if I am wronc, I would Uka 
to be corrected. now, ) that there waa no basia, no rula by 
which the grants nere given. Since that timw the plan re- 
ferred to by the honv PrtTlnoial Treesarer haa been 
announced, and it ia supposed, in tha over-all baaiw 

in Ontario, providing theae oatimataa and providing tbw 
aatiaates oon'-ainad in the Budget are paasad.vtbe otar-oU ifl 90 
per cent., to reliere all nuniolpalltiea and school boarda. 

The point 1 want to make ia, it hna been atataA 
thit afternoon If this plan recalTes the approval of thla 
House and these items ore passed, that the cheques will ba 
•••nt out immediately, and 1 want to find cut by what rule 
or what plan the 30 per cant., 50 per cent., 00 per oant. 
or 75 per cent, was arrlTOd at. 

I xinaoratooa, as did otnor hon* iwatoara in this 
Housa, last year, froa tha Treaaurer and froa tba ban« 
Minister of Kduoatlon, that a caraful and aaarabinf 
enquiry was to oe made in tha wbola taxation systeM, and 
I know, (beoauaa I happen^ to bara, in my riding, a man 

with a good deal of ezperlenca In wuniclpal affaire,) 

that a nuii>ar of plans/ submitted to tba Dapacrtaant of 

Education and tba Floor Director of Idttcation, rasardlnc 

this aattar, and It waa hoped that that draft could ba 






+ «rfw 

t iV 

'J33- T brr. ."l3:*EJ:fiDrTr:i 

to insmtt 
erf fii 


:ix eonslioqxc- 

- Xa# - 3-14-46. 

•ubBlttod to the Conalsalon which has hmn partially aatab- 
li8ho4, uolaaa It la a ona-aan aoanlatlon, but i understand 
tba Chalxnan of tha Cooalaalon had baao appoiaiaa ror aoaa 
Bontha, and he would prooadd with tha work, but %h9f would 
ba othar meBbara of tha Caamlaalon appointed. 

Tha faot It, the enquiry tma aot yet taJcan place, - 
at leaat, it has not been ooiqpleted. It is now pro— adlng, 
we understand, by the hon. tllnlster of Iduaatlon. i aa 
quite sure that the school boards in tuis provmoa and the 
ffiunloipallties will be happy to receive thaa, and i am also 
Juat as sure as I stand here there ia going to be a great 
deal of difficulty as to the basis on which this Bonay is 
going to be giren. There is going to be a great deal of 
satisfaction. Somo school boarda or municipalities are 
going to feel they hava bean harshly dealt with, and hare 
not been glTen proper consideration. 1 do not know whathar 
there is any flexible rule in the plan, but it ■•«■• to aa 
to be arbitrary, and I notice it ia for public and separata 
school education. It a tame to aa it ia nakiag one of tha 
fatal mlstakea wa hare alwaya aada in taxation, that va 
take from those who hsTa and give to thoae who have not. 

I2R. FBOST: That is soxuid reasoning. 

UR. MILLARD: No, I mean juat tha rereraa. le take 
from those who haTe not, and gire to thoae idio haTW. Bccav^e, 
if the percentage, rightly or wrongly, ia baaed oo last 
year's costs, then we panallxa thoae who heTw been prudent 
and watched their costs, - soma of thaa through SD^ulaioa, 
because they did not hava the revenue, - and we »za alao 
aaqpanding a differential coat between the separatanialiool and 
tha public-school financing. 

As I undaratand it, and I want to ba corrected if I 
•■wrong, it is now proposed, if this estiaata is >«aaad, 


bluov eit Alow 

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riw SB rB STBil oiiw ec 

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> bszBd el .vl^noiv? 

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obIb errs e? t^ ^rcr. f^r.t 9v^;> tc 

1 looiloa 





■ dt ©eufloecf 

■;o ec 



- 12*8 - 3.14-45. 

that oh«qtt*i vlll b« 8Mt out on th« hmaia of thirty p«r e«nt., 

fifty per cent, or aoTenty par o«nt. to th« Tarloua urban 
sohoola, and inat viii maan aoaa arbitrary rula haa baan 
arrlTsd at In tha offloa, with no oonorata Inforaatlon trxm 
the Royal CoBimlsalon, and that tha antl ra payaent will ba 
a pajoent cm the saoe baala on which t&ia Ir.atallaant will ba 
paid, and that no reliaf will ba glvan to thoaa aahoel boarda, 
tha aaparate school, or otherwlaa, that hata baan burdaoad 
on their last yasr's coat, ana tbarefora gat a amallar paraant- 
aga. I would like to know froo tha hon. Hlnlatar of Educa- 
tion, and frcan the hon. Treaaiirer, how the nantrv la 0Dlng to 
be distributed, uy gooa friend froa weiland (ur. Brown) waa 
concerned about that, when It waa going to ba paid, not only 
thia account, but future accounta, and I am anxloua to knov 
how It la going to ba paid and on what baala the rigura haa 
bean arrived at. 

HON. LESLIE U. FROST (ProTlnelal TReasurar): I pT99» 
uma my friend haa atudlad tha achama of granta #OTarlng tha 
province. I want to aay that thaaa grant a wera anaouncad on 
tha 10th of Daoambar, and I will aay T think thay hava baan 
recelTed with oommandatlon acroaa the provinca oy tha paopla 
of the proTlnoa for thla raaaon: there haa baan an affort, 
in the calculation of thasa cranta, to aaalst aroaa whlah 
actually have requira4l, and do require, oaalatanaa. i 
would aay thla, that/Vha Praaa of the prorlnaa, (and I hawa baaa 
following It crettT carefully, ) T cannot roeall of having 
■••a any objection to tha awthod of giving toa granta. m 
tha xirban munlolpalltlaa It runa Trom thirty par cant, to 
alrty per cent., and In tha rural Bunlelpalltlaa. froa 
fifty par cant, up to aa high aa ninety par cent, or 
nlnaty-flve par aant. Ttaara haa baan no objaation to that, 



eoBE irrmo^Aq b 


3 !>«rrr93nns 


lie nfi : an n~ 


ffioIX ,C;3X 

W* . ig4| - »*14*45. 

«t all, M far aa I ean taa. i think it haa baan a gr aa d , 
by all the poopla of tha proTlnaa, ganorallj, that It waa 
a fair way of trying to equall za the situation aoroaa tha 

I want to say, furthamora, In aquallzlng that 
situation by that aathod, It has tha effaot of asalsting. 
You take, for Instance, munlolpalltlas that hara baan 
burdened In their financing. Take ay own town of Lindsay, 
where the finances there, twelTa yeara ago, wara in a rery 
difficult shape, but now they are In vary excellent ahipa. 
They have economized and haTa bean raasonabla. It Is true 
in the town of Lindsay tha. grants will not ba as largf,b 
proportionately, as perhaps other plaoaa where there haa 
baen extravagance, but the town of Llndaay is in a 
fortunate position. The tax ra^ la only S4 BlUa, and 
they have room to expand, and their credit is good, and 
they are not worried about that situation. They are 
delighted with it. Their debt problem is out et the way. 
They consider this is responsible for the tax rata being 
cut to 34 mills. There is a municipality in which thara 
is no problem. 

Tha difficulty is when you go to a oanialpallty 
in the extreme eases. Take ay good friend from 
Te^ilskavdng (Ur. Taylor). Ha is not in his saat. But 
there is a fflunioipality that haa mat with the aoat 
terrific difficulty. While tha town of Llndaay may get 
fifty par cent, on the average across the board, I think 
they get forty on tha public and separata, and aoawhat 
higher, fifty-fiva or alxty, on tha aaaondary. While 
thay are only racalving perhapa an average of fifty 
per cant., my friend froa Cobalt (Mr. Taylor) ia getting, 

- i^j 



1 evfli 


f r 1 — i r> 

-■^ — ^aeii-xe. erf* a J: 

\" -id- 

« ISM - 

I tblnk, flOTenty-flT* per o«nt., and why ibould ttaaj not 
g«t ••▼enty-flTo per e«nt.7 ATUr oil, it a ohlld not 
as Tliluabla in the tow of Cobalt aa a ehild In the town 
of Lindsay? 

I think the real queetlon la, Uow do you ttrllM 
the basis of paying one third of the grant at the praae- 
ant time? I think that is altogether dealrabla. Th» old 
fonn of asalstanoe granta la done evay with, and the baala 
la a stral^t proportion of coat aeroaa the board. I aay 
you could not work it in any omer way. If you take a 
aniniolpallty or township in Ontario, and try to work it 
on any other baala, you get nothing but the moat tarrine 
differences in costs and in granta In Bunicipaliiies lying 
alongside of each other. This is a fair basis, snd I would 
say thla: if a municipality has increased its costs, avb^ 
Ject, of course, to the approval of the hon. lUnlster of 
Kduoatlon, land I think ereryone would agree that la a wise 
4>2!oVisi011, ) their grants are Increased proportionately. 

I know one village at the present t iBt has Terj, 
very low cost in connection with education. Tbmj art goinc 
to be faced with expenditxires, and whllo they do not re- 
ceive an Initial grant, neTertheless, tney wllx build 
buildings and will ultimately receive Inoreoaed granta 
because of these ezDendltures, and it will level Itself 

I would say this, it sMot to be unwise, at tha 
pratent tlna, to look to theae munlolpalltlat at the 
■otnt, when all of them are ahort financially, to glw« 
them an advance on their grant, and other grantt can b« 
paid during the year. 

ffhare you are dealing with six thouaand acnool 
boards, and six thousand audita, it is a traandoua Job, 



buB J .iaao 


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ri2 f 77 3 a ' 

• YBW 1 

LaiAt I 

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iT:t ft 

rrt - SMI • 3-14-45. 

and it takea tlae to work the situation oat, but Z •■ 
aatlafltd It will work out to tha banaflt of our paopla. 

(paga Ho. 1298 follova.) 


■ ^' <t9^i it bnB 1 

{,nypr> ■^'" r»" ^■^■■>rr\ 

001 • i'^u - 5-14-46 

Mr* 8fti«b«rff 

MR* ajLLSBnO: Th« ^rciTlBeUl TrMmir«r i« v«yy 
dlMrnlng. I hmy told lilB privately that h» dlMraa t«« 
■aiqr p«opi« for tba publlo (ood, but *b«n b« «••• to tho 
longth of iaplylnc that tha hon. MBbar far Ballv««da 
<|U». MaoLaad), who la tha laadar of my party la thla 
Bouaa, la dlaaatlsflad vlth tha granting of tha aaouata 
hara propaaad to ba glvan ta tha Bunloipailtlaa, I think 
I should set tha aattar atralght bafora «a prooaad fur- 

In tha flrat plaoa If this GavarflMBt had aet 
handlad tha ahola question of school coats in this pro- 
TlDoe as a palltloal prop to ba usad or put a«ay at any 
tlma as political azpadlancy raquirad, thara aould parhapa 
ba DO discussion such as va ara harlng hara thla after- 
noon. Unfortunately the Prograaalve ConsarratlTa party 
haa usad the school easts quesvfon aa one of Its aaia 
palltloal props, and eren no*, because of the aanaar la 
which the GoYemment la handling thla problaa, a craup 
such as ours whlah for many years haa adTacated tha 
aasumptlon by the Government of the entire aahool easts 
af the proTlnce -- aa advaeated It even bafora tha Part 
Bape pregraa, before even tha Mlniatar beeaae Fraviaeial 
Traaaurer — we are compelled te question tha way ia 
which thla queatlon la being handlad. 

Tha raapeaalblllty far the burden ahlah tha 
preperty ownera in the cities have to bear doe a not lie 
upon the shoulders of ay croup, nor far that aattar doaa 
it lie upon the shoulders of tha official Onpaaltlon. 
Thst reaponsiDixity rests, and it should oa recognised 
by all to reat, upon the ahouldera of tha Pregreaaiva 
ConaarvatlTa party, yaa . and on the Liberal party tea, 
which gavernad for man/, aany years. 

- ^GtL - 


Yaev e ' .eseaT It 

BCffli/ODIS 9rf? ^ 

- loi evoA I . anion Bftib 

\.Iqiul lo li^satX 

abeel ^^rit el oriv « ( 6«eJoflll ,4llf) 

-»r« =="815 a I «»aiJOH 

•il 04 ^•soqoaq sYttd 

.'e le^^aa sd^ ^98 bJLuexla I 

voO elil:} Jt eoalq i^arcXt aif} al 

-otq Blri ttlorfw eil:r balbasif 

taB :tfi Y"'" " 3 a» Boniy 

aqsrlieq bivow s-i^di ,x xdaviboqxd isoiJxXoq bb Milt 

"lellB 2. 3il ai« av aa dox/a nolaauoall) oa od 

Y^t*"' ?" • + -^--i - ^ <■ -^^?e*iso''^ "'^"^ yiaJaau^ialn') .aooa 

nia is^so» Xoodoe »di baax/ aad 

flt fttnea ad^ \o 9b0»»9d ,von n^va biia ^aqoiq Isoi^lX«q 

. ..' bairsaovofi asn »ib9\ x^^' ialdir bijjo ea dox/a 

ad^eoo js 9itiae 9di lo ;tn9aa7e'VoO adit xd aoXlqm/BBa 

:*'-"* -'* '"^'*9d nav - .x h9t»09vbB ©a -- aoalvo'xq edJ lo 

^sJLoaivoi'i aauiodd ao^alnlU 9di aat» ^nm^md ,aut'X8*7<I ftq^H 

at XBv •df Aoti&mirp 9i SaXXaqmoo aia e« — laioaanT 

.beS"~ ' 3niad ar "./^aei/p eiri^ do Ida 
Bdt Aoldm atbtud adj lol \; } 11 IcflBxtoqeei adT 

alX ion eeob la- 

.iK^.LO xaa(- 
8vlea91^ol? , 
,00* X^naq . 

ielito edS at eianwo -^JTtaqoiq 
-"OTS ^m '*'" 3T:a6X0ode »di aoqu 
enabiuode ad: alX it 

.e^sf^t Ytfllldlaaoqeai J^fldT 
"- o;t LIB Ytf 
atiiJ edar ao oae , 8«x iY^i«q aviJByiaeaoO 
.8iee II t^aaa lol baaiavea doidv 

- !«•* - 1-14-45 

Mr. Sal«b«rf 

m. CHALLISSt Th« bOD. mmmoT far JU^ia iHr. 
Bepburn) should takt tb« bon. Msbsr f«r 3t. ABdr«« 
(Mr. aalabsrg) out of tb« ehajiib«r and spank hla. 

W.^SALdBSRO: la bara a lat to onticiza in 
tba Libaral party, and «a shall erltloiza It. 

W. HEPBURN (llgin): Z da not think I ooul4 
•taai a arual ward from tha ban. aaabar far St. JUdrav, 
Bay I aay ta ay bon. frland. 

MR. 3U3KR0: My bon. frland, I think, vlll 
nat find eausa ta objaot baeausa ba vlll raaa^nlM 
oonatruotlra wladon and aeoapt It, I am aura. Tha 
faet Is that It la only as a raault of tba praaaura 
damand ganaratad by tha labour noTaaant and pragraaalTa 
paopla ganarally that the Oararnaant and gaTarnlnc par- 
tlas genarally have reallsad tba naad of bringing about 
aoma rafoza in tba aattar of adueaticm. 

Vhan tba fifty par cant oaat of aduoatlon vaa 
undartakan to ba boma by tha Catarnmant «a than aaln- 
talnad and «a atlll do that that ahould anly ba tha 
baglnnlng. ffa malntalnad than and va aalntaln no« that 
ona bundrad par oant of tba coat of aducatlon ahould ba 
borna by tha provincial gavarnaant aa that tha proparty 
cwnars would ba rallsTsd of that burdan. Laat yaar In 
thla Housa va aada a big point of tha gaTarnaant'a 
fallura to aaauaa fifty par eant of tha coat of aduca- 
tlon, vbleh It had proalsad to asauav. 

MR. MILULRD: And than you Tatad for thaa. 

m, SALSBIRO: I bag pardon. Wa aarUlnly did 
not. Va appaalad to tba OvTsriSMnt ta uaa tha aurplua 
to pay for tba ooata of aduoatlon as thay had praalaad, 
and va vara tha only onaa In tha Bousa to do it. Tha 
raeords vlll shov that va appaalad to tha Oavarnasnt %• 

SiedelflE .iM 

- ?,m 

( - 



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at 9St 

II ^^ 



ac>ub» "i 


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aulqii/s <««dt bb 

1^ »7i0^ biuode (aijjdqeH 
. ^ ... ;,,i*tfaXAe .tM) 

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^ -io« I«x/19 • baa^te 

. .AM 
»i 9BUB0 bait toa 
drebaf •▼; . anoo 


< bmit ib 

oi^ /,lIai»iX6S e»I^ 


3V9l:I»'i dd bluow eieawo 

*"'■■• -7 "^ ' r> BbBOL ©w eejJoH alri^ 

;»o i»q Xi^ll^ •muaea Oit siiillBl 

.•ini/aes o;t 5»8jtmoT:q 6ari ;fi rfoirfw ,iioiir 

AS . m 

baXeaqqa ©1 . ^ofl 

« '^ .-. -.^^<s g^j .jQ«j -^ag o;^ 

aii^t aidw 9« baa 
q,B em iliw abiooe^ 

003 'XM§^ 9-14-40 

Mr. aftl«b«rt 

us« th« surplus whloh tbsy ted lnb«rlt«4 to ssstaa st Issst 
£6 psr osnt of th« oosuof sduostloa for tlM nmm o«iq4» 
boesuso ths Oovornaont bod ovorovod us vltb tbo aicBltudo 
of tbo probioa, soylng that It roqulrotf o royal oomkIo- 
alon to mako tbs aoot tborougb inTostigatioc of it, sod 
tbat it aould roqulro a long porlod of tiao. Wo as xmw 
BMBbors, In Tloo of tbs joagnltudo of tbo probloa as tho 
OoYsrnmsnt szprssssd It with ablch tbsy oors suddoniy 
eonfrontod, urgod tbat at loost half tbo surplus abiob 
tbe Goverzunent bad not croatod thamaolTos but bad la- 
horltod sbould be banded over to tho school boards. 
The GoTornaent did not aocopt our advleo. I hoaoatly 
believe that from tbe very boglnalng thoy have used 
this question as a political prop, a political stratogy. 

In August tbe Prime Minister was ao oortaln that 
It was Inposslblo to oarry out hla plodgo that ho eooBlt- 
ted blmsalf In a radio speoch. What bappenod vas this. 
Tbe Prime illnlster was then doallng «lth what bo bollovod 
would beociM a much bigger public Issue In gottlng Totos. 
Unfortunately for tbo Prlao Mlnlator It ozplodod In hla 
face. Tbo Issue that bo raised with respect to tho 
family allowance exploded In bla faoo, and thea tho ques- 
tion that ho had thought was of soeondary iapartaao*, 
one tbat could be shelved, he was eoapollod to resort 
to, sod that la why at thla aosslon of tho Loglalatura 
tho Oovornmont are propoalng to uaa laat year* a soxplua 
to pay for tbe ooMing yoar*s oduoatlonal ooots. that 
la an important point to bo reaaabered. 

Oortalnly tho Prlao Minister, who is alaa tho 
Minister of Sducstlon, know whether It oould or could 
not bo done. He was so oortaln that It oould not b« 
dona In Auguat laat tbst ho oooalttod hlaoolf In a 



^^aiSiC tiiiiiu bȣlv 




•O •riT 

offltTi ©«fr 

" ; + 


,^ J ■ -i ^ , 

004 - lt66 - S-14-iO 

Mr. s«l«b«rf 

radio ap««ob, and tbtt acBBltaant 1« in th* rrmtad 
raoord of Ma apaaah. Ba roailsad iLal ao«a(i;i&« &ad 
to ba dona ahan tba family allaaaooa laaua aspladad 1b 
hla faoa and ao thla plan to aaauaa thA •duaatictnal 
ooata to the dagraa propoaad «aa broug&t cean £;«atiiy, 
with thla auDplamantary aatiaata of orar |6,000»000, 
but atthout providing for naxt yaar*a eoata, ahloh alll 
approxlaata $£6, 000,000. Ha la taKia« tha |6,000,000 
out of laat yaar'a aurplua. But what about tha balaaaat 
Do provision is nada for thAt, and It oould not ba pro- 
vldad for hastily baaauda tn« vnola aubjaot aaa a 
political prop usad by tha Prograaalva Conaarvatlva party 
to covar a hola in thair political platfom. 

Lot it bo unaarstood toat taia party la not ob- 
jaotlng to thla amount balng grantad, but «a do want to 
olaar up carta in points. 

Thara is anothar point loat ahouid ba ciaarad 
up. It la Inoorraotly raprasantad to hundrada of 
thouaands of the eltlzana of thla provlnca that tba 
Oovarmant is assusuog fifty par oant of the ooata of 
•ducatlon. Ihat did tha Ulniatar of Public forks aay 
In his interjection? I heard somathlng that aoundad 
Ilka a gruat frcn hla, Mr. Chaln&ao, but I aouid axpaot 
that from hla. 

Aa I was aaylng. It la inoorraotly rapraaantad 
to hundreda of thouaaoda of the oltlsans of thla provinoa 
that tha Ooasrnmant la aaavalng fifty par oant of tbt 
aohool costs. But lat ua aaa ahatbar that la tba taaa. 

In tha city of Toronto tha OafvanuMBt la aaatMiat 
laaa than thirty par cant of tha aohool oaata. Tat 
Prograaalva Conaarvatlva apaakara, fr«a tha aaabara of 
thla Houae down to the aMilleat ward baalar go about 

3**M-5 - aaai - *co 


w tac 

a esv s8U0oecJ •bxv 

v«' ^'.~t- ':ir;ltdel: 

;rff . rrc - 



+'iirft nodJ 88ttl 

- It66 « >ii-4fi 

•nd t«il the oltlstoa of Toronto tuai tbe OoT«rnB«Bt is 
ftsaumlng fifty p«r o«nt of the aobool e«st«. 

Ml. DUCKWORTH: Is not thst right? 

Ml. SALSBBRO: Of eourss It la not. Tterc la as 
hon. nambar who doaa not know tba facta. 

m, DUCKWORTH: On a point of ordar, Mr. Cbaiman» 
I aak the hon. gantlaaoB ta azplaln bov ba arrlTas at 
hla conclusion that the GsTaraaaBt la not taking orar 
fifty par cant of the sohoal ooata. 

m. 3ALSBIR0: In Toronto, I aaid. 

ilR. FROST: Wauld you rsduoa Cobalt *a aavanty- 
flTe par oant? 

UR. SALSBBRO: I would not. Aa a Matter of 
faot X would relieve Cobalt of the entire ooat of educa- 
tion. I think that ought to ba dona, and I vould free 
the rest of the proTlnoe of the aeboel oests, but par- 
ticularly Cobalt, ahlob was an unfortunate town fer the 
Minister to cite, beosuae for thirty years Cobalt baa 
baan exploited and Billlona taken out of that area and 
than the eoBBunlty vaa left high and dry by thoae vha 
had made their fortunaa out of !%• 

I think It abould ba aada olaar that thia quaa- 
tlon of tha assunption of school eaata by tba OovarnBant 
is used by thea aa a political prop. Wa in tbla troop 
bava adToeatad and »ill continue to adTooato both la tbo 
Houaa and outalda of it that one hundred per oent of tbo 
aobool costs should ba aaauaad by tba proTlnco. ■• 
think that la only right, and «o think that that 
awontually will ba done. 

But «o do think that it abould be aada knova 
to tbo oitlBona of Toronto, aa wall as to the oltitona of 
•tbar plaoaa ahare tha aaoa thing appliaa» that tbay ara 


- ddSi 



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- US? - S-lV-48 


aot b«lng rell«Tad of fifty par oent of thm oes«s of 
•duoatlon at thla tlaa. In Toronto it la loaa tlioB 
thirty por oont. That abould not bo so. 

I want to aaaura tbo hoa. FroviLciai Troaaurar 
that «a hava not boon In tho loaat afraid and aro not 
of raid to faea our eonstltuonta on thla quaation. Vt 
ara not afraid of tha iroto on it to-day, as va vara not 
afraid of tha Tota on tho quastioo loat yoar. I aa 
quite prepared to faoo tho olootora booauao tboy know 
Where «o stand on this quostlon. Tbo Tories ooro in 
power for yoara on and but thay brought no rollof to tbo 
property ovnara in the nuniolpolltles. Tboy loft ttaoa 
with a burden of debt froa oblob to-day tboy oro otjryislinc 
to got free. 

In ooncluaion, Mr. Obairaan, I would aay to bon. 
■Mibors on the Oovorninent aide, who aay try to uao this 
question as a polltioal prop to oaver up a aoltltudo of 
sins, they will find thetr notlTe quite tronsporont to 
the electors and in ay opinion it will bo aaot^r oaaa 
of too little and too late. 

MR. DUOnORTH: Ur. Chairman -- 

MR. LBAVB1I3: Mr. OhalrMn — 

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Otaaln»n» tbo bon. MMtov 
for Woodbine waa on hi a feat before the bon. aoabor for 
Doveroourt roao, sod tbo bon. aoibor for Ooweroourt 
should sit down. 

MR. DOODOMI: I do not think it boeoM s any 
boa. BOBbor to order another ooo to alt down. It is 
not eren oourteouo. 

m» WILLIAMS: If this is folM to bo a eoatoot 
I oan about too. 

m, LKAVSNS: It was laterostlng to hear tbo hOB. 

- V3SI - dOO 

1 »tf ^Ofl 

Italic eee-l lAOube 


van »'.* Jflxli' 

at b-iOiv ct» '.IT in •« oiaxlv 

eil. ^ol tewoq 

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Xii ^«ffi al>ie :ii80UTis«K} ndt no n«tfawa 

.•.t«X oo? f>o«% e ooi lo 

■ I ..TOO IT 

— aamntadO »tU 

.awof) ;tJ:a £)lJJC£l8 
XBB Bsocoetf .f£ i.. .*« fon 06 I •"T'lOHraoua .AM 
el ;^I .nwc. ToditoflB lebio o;t i9<im»n ,aoil 

.BWoe*T[i;oo rtere :foa 

.00^ ^i/orlB aeo I 
IS tat Bm . H?^ 

- IBM - 3-l4-4e 

■•mb«r for Oovareourt ftttaek tte statMcnt Md« by xbm ton, 
MlQter for St. Aadr** that fifty p«r o«nt of thm oosts of 
•ducatlon in Toronto had not boon assuaod by tiM OoTora- 


MR. DUCKWORTB: On m point of ordor, Mr. Chalrmn, 
I did not apaalc of tbo •duoatlonal oosts In tbo olty of 
Toronto. My quostlon ■«• how tho bon. Brabor for St. 
Andrew arrlTed at his oonoluslon that tba OoTomaant 
«aa not assuming fifty par cant of tha adueatlonai ooata 
In tha proTinoa. I did not aay In tba olty of Toronto. 

MR. LSATOrS: If I waa In arror» I tako it baak. 

MR. DUCKWORTH: All right. 

MR. LIAVSN3: But tbara la no ProcroaalTa Coo- 
aarratlTe mambar sitting on tha OoTamaant banobaa rapra-> 
aantlng a Toronto speaeh who «aa not aleotad on that 
daflnlte promlsa of tha OoTorxmant to aaauaa fifty par 
oant of the educational costs. If thay had told tba 
people what baa happened in regard to ttet fifty per 
cent there would not be so many neaibera fron Toronto 
sitting on the OowenuMnt benches. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Not sTen the bon. aefflber for 

MR. LIAVIMSi te stated then aa we do nov tbat 
the GoTemnent Biade a proBlas wbiah they knew they eouid 
not fulfil and nov they are taking off e elloe of the 
fifty per cent hare and adding a little there to try to 
•OfT it up. Toronto was promised that fifty par cent 
of its educational costs would be aaauaad by the Ooraro- 
Dent. trery Toronto Baabar ait ting on tha Oowarnaant 
side and every one of their apeakera Mda tbat atateaant 
on all tholr politloal platforaa. So do not let ua 
kid ourselTaa that that prcalaa waa not aada. 



^nmciiMdO .iM , larti 



£1 mo-tbaA 

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3#a 9W teKSVAXJ .JIM 

*» Of 'HX>A£B ^ •» "f-t^T ■^v.- 

1 Jon 


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- ItM - 5-14-48 

Mr. VlIllaM 

Ml. IILLIAIO: I an z«tb«r intvrvBtatt in xai» de- 
bate bseaustt Z •■ Itarnlng quit* • lot. Tbo«« Mabors «ho 
•re benglng ttaa dmskm ar* e«rtalBly not tbo obm who •rm 
tosehing bo. 

MR. SUCKWOim: I ean toaoh you a lot of tblnca. 

m. •ZLLUM3: Juat •• tba Proalor oon toaob you. 
If you aro going to atart tbat gaao, tao aan play It. 
You keep your ramarka to youraalf , Mr. Mlnlator of Blgb- 
vaya, baoauae I bara aaan too muab of tbat aort of tblnc 
practised In thla Bouae alraatfy. 

IB. DaXSVTT: I aa quite pireparatf to taka oara of 
■yaelf . 

MR. WILLIAMS: Tbla quaatloa of aduoational ooata 
TCBlnds ma very muob of tbe radio program of Aaea and iBdy, 
abare I bave beard many tlnas "One Billion, t«o Blllloa, 
tbrea Billion," and aban I beard of tbe $27,000,000 for 
education I eould not belp but relate tbea to the 
flotitloua Billions of Andy, beoause I learn to-day that 
tbere «aa no aucb $£7,000,000 at all. Wliy aaa tbe atory 
of tbat $27,000,000 clroulatad so widely aaongat tba people 
of tbla province If It aaa not to give the InpraaaloD tbat 
tbere actually aaa $27,000,000 to be apent on aduoatlonT 
We bave bad to wait until tbla aeaalon of tba Laglalature 
iB 194S for tba people to really knoa boa tbey bave baaa 
fooled beoauae It la only noa tbat aa are told tbat tbara 
la only nine Billion dollara of a aurplua, approxlaataly. 

I do not knoa «bo conoelved tbla ayataa of paylns 
these grant a, but ahoever oonoalved It I auat pay tribute 
to blB for bavlr.g oonoalved a vary elaver polltloal move, 
baoauae I knew oondltlona lb tba olty of Oabaa*. Z kaov 
that tba Prograaalve Conaarvatlve oandldata In tba laat 

- easi - 


-eb zir jsJceioJci i&tLiBn saa I :CMAIJJIW .HU 

odw eisdmem seori' .^ol s eitup sajtaieel oib I esusaed s^atf 

'..■■■' JieJa 


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otlup me I :TT£ 

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to 81B0 &ABi oi belt 

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B;feoo Xaa 
,ybnA br.'. ;.:.:/ 

10 1 000, c 

*£;:.. ,. ... . 
alQoeq sd;r 

61 er. 
.avofli laoi: 

wo 031 i 

jBfll er 

i^Jeeiip Bill 
otbBi eriJ 'J 
'n eaO" vml, . 

Jd 000,000 
ma xl«ibl.K 08 Sa^aliiO'^ 


•W .AM 

varf I sisrlw 

",doiIlJtm seirf^ 

09 I nottBOisbti 

Ltd fc i/V.- •- V ■. W .. .1. i 

0,000,?S^ ic'di lo 

>{ixBJJjoa 8' 

bail eved •! 

i.iio < dax/aoed 69X0 ol 

Ilob nofcXIJta ^ Ino ai 

Ddvxdoiioo leveori* iad .ed'nBTj 
levelo yiev e bsvleon; /Rff lol mill oj 

009 . i£50 - 8^14-45 

Ik-. WillUM 

•l«otion oonduetod hia ouipalgn on thm •••ur«iio« that tba 
paople of tb« olty of OahsM oould •xp«ot, If tb« Fro- 
grass ive OonsarratlTaa vara put In offloa, that tha 
Oovernmant would asaxaa fifty par cant of tha ooat of 


MR. klaoLKD: Tbay had bannara aoroaa tha atraat 
to that affaot. 

MR. WILLIAMS: That la vhara thalr olaTarnaaa 
eaaa in. 

MR. DUCKKORIU: Are «a raally olarert 

MR. WILLIAM3: I hava alraady aald that I did 
not know who conoalrad this plan, but It doaa aaasa aa 
that tha hon. nenbar for Doveroourt should olala oradlt 
for such oieverness. I would iaagliia that avan aaoBgat 
tha Mlnlstar's supportara thara la no ona aho vould 
attribute such olaTernaaa to tha hon. mambar for Dovar- 

MR. DUCKWORTH: I aant to tall tha hon. aambar 
for Ontario that I aa far aora olawar than h« i>. 

m, WILLIAMS: In thla Housa wa bow w tna 
Spaaker and tha Chalnaaa, but In thla aaaa 1 faal In- 
olinad to bow to tha hon. mambar for Dororoourt. I 
will try and ramacibar in tha futur* n^w aaazin^ ciavar 
ha la. 

In tha olty cT Oshawa tha ProftrasalTa Oonaar- 
TatlTas lasuad a oooicxai snowing t&a paroantagas that 
wara going to ha paid In Tarloua plaoaa. X find that 
In tha olty of Oshawa thay ara not koWlr to gat fifty 
par oant of tha coat oX aducatios aasuBsd oy %iM 
Qovanuwnt but only thirty par aant. 

■I. flOST: Thlrty-flTa par oant. 
i.r MR. WILLI AM3: And lu a piaoa adjaaant to Ottawa, 

- 0»Si - 


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1q ^so- :30 'le. 


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taooBU* ■-■■- bak :JJIW .HM 


eW.0 . ifei . 3-14-46 

Mr. mill 

but eiM«r to Whitby, Brooklln, tta« p«ro«atag« is 
than fifty. 

MR. FROST: Brooklln «111 probably e«t alzty par 

m. ULUAMS: That la right. Ttet la what X •■ 

aaylng. Tha lllnlatar doas not naad to halp ma whan I aa 
aaylBg what ha maana. So that puta all of ua In this 

avaat poaltlon, that if I ralaa a fusa baaauaa tha paopla 
of Oahawa ara not getting fifty par oant, tha QoTamBant 
can clalffl that tha paopla of Brooklla ara gattlng aora than 
fifty par cant. I an not aura that tha hon. aaabar for 
Dovarcourt had anything to do alth thinking that ona up. 

UR. DUCKWORTH: How doaa tha hon. aaobar for 
Ontario know what I had to do with it? 

MR, WILLIAMS: Wa do not know what thaaa par- 
oantagas adiount to In tarns of dollara and oanta. Wa 
know that thara la to ba an initial payaant of alght and 
threa-quarter million dollara* but whan wa ocBS to ralata 
that to plaoas wa do not kaov how auch it aaounta to in 
dollars and cants. I would aak the Minlatar of Idueatloa 
or tha Provincial Treasurer to plaasa tall aa how auah Id 
dollars and oanta Forest Hill Ylllaga la getting aa ooa- 
pared with a placa of approxlaately tha aaaa else, both 
In area and population, naaely Oalt. Bow auoli will aasll 
of thaaa plaoaa gat? I would Ilka to ba told by oaa 
or other of tha alnlatara. 

MR. DRSW: liaturelly that quaatlon cannot b« 
answered offhand. What can ba answered Is that tha 
regulationa apply unlforaly to tha whole of Ontario on 
the basis set out. 

MR. WILLI AIB: I know they apply unlforaly. X 
tm not quaationlng the feat that they apply unlforaly. 

8^ . - _ 

- lasi - 



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dtod (OSiia eofts art'. 

ecf cf'on 

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-: 78«no'~i 8;ta»o baa eiAlIob 

, ^as BeT0 fli 
f^ea ettoslq seed;}- lo 

oaudllu beievreafi 
^olim; Ylcyqa anolJali/gsT 

I .T{Iflrioli::jj Yl<K8 Y®rf* worol I :eMAIJLII1f ,flM 

.Ylancoliftu ylqqe x»^* i»di i^el sriJ snlnoiJeeup J-on m» 

- 1£6S - 8-14-46 

Mr. fllllMS 

But th« actual amount of adueatlonal oosta io a particular 
•raa ought to ba takan into oonaldaratioB. Foraat Hill 
Tillage, for Inataaoa, la a waalthy plaoa, ahara tbara 
•ra a lot of paopla who oan apand a lot of monay on 
aducatlon, as oomparad »lth tha city of Oalt, ahloh la 
oomparobla In population and araa, but wbara tha paopla 
cannot afford to Indulga thamsalTaa so auob In aducatlon. 

in. FPQST: Tbay will from now on. 

MR. VILLIAliS: All right. I am vlllllig to Join 
with hon. mambara on tha Govarnoant banohaa In balng 
optimistic 80 far as thla first payaant la ooncarnad, 
but frankly I cannot ba optlmlatlc aa to what tha muni- 
cipalities are going to get after tbla firat Inatalmant 
has baan paid. I have been waiting to haar aomabody 
say, as the hon. member for ffelland was trying to gat tha 
OoTernmant to say» when will they get the second chaqua? 
Wa know thay will get the firat cheque right away, but 
personally I am not being fooled by it either. I know 
why it is being done, I think, Ve are going to hava 
an election in tha proTlnce of Ontario and thla la to ba 
one of the Govemmant's atrong campaign appaala. Thay 
want to be able to say: 3aa what we hare already glTan 
you, and If you return ua to power we will glTe you the 
balance. But the GoTemosnt cen give ua no assuranee 
in thla Rouse to that affaot, and we have a right to 

Bare in thla document which 1 hold in my nana 
it shows where the monay la coming from and where it la 
propoaed to aend It to. But 7 «ant to kr.ow when are 
tha municipalities going to gat tnair aacoi^c oneque. 
That la a aimpla quaatioo. If you cannot anawar it, aay 
ao. But you do not want to aay ao because If you did it 

. •I.i 

oa er 





OOie . ifAtt . S- 14-46 

Mr. mil 

would b« UB«d against you in the alaetluD vbioli !• 0( 
upon us. 

I vlll glT« you an answer to ths questlcn I asksd 
about Qalt and Forest Bill ?lllags and waen toa saoond 
ohaque is coming. 


.ax/ aoqu 
et eupado 



IS. 7RCJT: Ur. cholran, I think it la i^po«slbl« 
to antvor the first on« out of «y tetd. I bma. It Aotualljr 
requires a very oonslderable OBMuat of oo^putatlon to 
figure out — 

13. ./ILLUie: If the hoD. Unlator iUr. rrostj 
would allav m\ that checking la (Splnc to bo done lanadiate- 
ly, unl033 I «■ entirely nlslnforoDd, because the reaaoa 1 
voted for the supply to-Uay was that the cheoxa vera to 9 
out iSL^dloiely. 

IR, FRCST: That la rleht, but wo uauld haTe to 
ooqputo It. Uur difficulty la thla; at the noaant a lot 
of the conputatlons are being done on tho basis jr tho 
1945 costs, ihat «as the last ooqpiote year, ihe oaoo 
for 1944, with oany of the school Doarda, nay not be oo»- 
pleted for sona tlioe, and we would be onabledto pay on 
the baals or approxloately 33 percent ur M percent — > 
approximately one-third, and that would b^pprozl lately 

lloWf 1 would soy tnis to ay hon. friends, — and i 
do not wont to learo the :iouse in doubt as to when It la 
our intontlon to pay these other paynents; to oe quite 
frank, we nope to make those payoants in three inetaifiBnta 
during the yoai*. ihe flrat payaent la before the oouae, oad 
that will be paid before the 31a t of Liaroh. 1 would think 
tho Boat aatlafaotory date we oould orrlTO at for Um ooooad 
paynant would be between the 15th of .luly and the lat of 
Auguat, and the third payaant about the lat or ttoreaber. 
That is the intention. 

To giro you an aotuai dote la aoooitmt dl moult » 
because there are a lot of faotora whioh enter into it. 

You olght say, 'HDiy not mke it in one poyaoatv" 



nrl? saUi^ 

- U65 - 3-14-45 

m» n>Mt. 

^liat trould be a balano* or, say, 09vento«B allllon dallara 
to pay and if vm pay it on tha lat or Novaaear, it aoasa 
that acme of the ounlolpalltles and aehoel beards waultf hftt* 
to flconoo themselTos in the DsontlDa. en the otber hand, 
there la no justification In aakin«; it aa a pre-payaant tofora 
the coney la required, bocauae we ha to bur oim flnanolal 
obligatlona to care Tor. I would say the laat part of Ally 
and the latter part of October are the datea tre have In 

1 would like to glre the: House thia atateaent of 
overall payoenta, because 1 am takiae Tiolent e;:coptlon to 
It, and SQT expreoslons concerning overall aurpluaea hava 
been quite aa violent aa the hon. aeober from Ontarla 
(l&r. .<llllams). 

Now, qy hon. friend froa Slgln (Mr. liepbxirn) knows 

perfectly well that I always ob.locted to oreroll auroltisoa, 

ana it sea not includea in j^a» ouacet jjxst year, i soula 

like to read you what appeared laat year: 

"Laat year at thla tins, there waa 
preaented to the Houae an eatiaate 
of the overall aurplus for the year 
ended Liarch 31, 1944, of 
$20,682,897.88. 1 find that this 
ooQbinatioB of capital and ordinary 
receipts and expenditures oreates 
a wrong Inpression. a capital 
surplus doss not naesssarily re- 
duce the debt, tn the basis of 
such an overall stateaant thera is 
a tendency to confuse the saas with 
an ordinary sur^laa. However, for 
the purposs o^ocpetoai 1 now pre- 
sent iB a sioilar aannsr a atataaant 
uf revenues and expeziUitures, both 
on ordinary and ospital accounts, 
based on ten zsonths actual and .jo 
taonths rorecast.** 

Now, I wort to say this to the hon. aniBbers -: t 

so nuch lave I diaagreed with overall surpluses that thla year 

it la not in the budget at all. 1 do not think it neada 


f VJ ^ V 

• isee - 5-14-46 

ttt-. TromX. 

anything other than a ooqparUon, a&d there wae • foreceet 
laede In the budget of 1944 «hiah av hon. trimnd i>a^ L^nt 
(Mr. Ih;^iiV8sn) had prepoxeU aoa, theroi^o, iw iuiriXI hie 
fereoaet, I put the azoount in, but it le set Inolvvled la 
this year's budgat. I do not Ilka overall surpluset. I 
thini: tuoy oaslead. 

U3. JOLLLTTS: llow long hae thla «lDdo«-dreeeli« 
been going =n? 

m. i-iiU3T: In anever to the hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (l£r. Jolllffo] I loay eay that OTerall eur- 
pluees «rere first introduced Into the budget In ontarle 
about five years ago* .revloue to that orerall surplueea 
vere never heard of, but overall surplueea were Introduced 
at that tlioe, and it .Tae carried throueh, but I hare faumd 
it always olaleadlng to the people. 

i^hen you say "overall surplus ** natxirally people 
think you have twenty-seven nllllon dollars In the bank 
or on hand which can be spent for other thlnge. Trom ttm 
standpoint of the oaa en the etreet, it caimot bear any 
such interpretation, a surplus, m oy opinion, la o sur- 
plus on ordinary accounts , and that is a tnie test of the 
reduction of the net debt. 

Ifi. liSPBQBM: Mr* Chainoaa, 1 an .vr^ sXmA the hon* 
■iJBber for Ontario ilCr. rflUlaas) raised this partloular 
point, and I aj& rather dieappolnted that the hon. rrorinolal 
Treasurer iHr. Frost) did not read the whole stateaent* 
There is no doubt an erronecua la^reseion was created laa% 
year and this year with regard to the w h o l e surplus. ISie 
hon. Provlnolal x'reasurer lift*, yrostj is a cxerar c r 
and can slcld around certain volnta tlth <7eat Ueztti'xt . 




"OAi 'xCisJ^biJO'. 

- I«a7 - 3-14-45 

Liegr I r«ftr to Om uiuig»t •p««oh vuul«r tte ttrsAnllatd 
heading "oTtroIl surplus ", « part of «hloh bm fmA, but 
not all of it. Tlov, ^t as read th« raat, b«oous4 tiM 
iivreaaloa nout sut thatJast yaar Xix9 ^vanimaat hal • 
surplus of tusnty-nlxis mlllon dolXsrs,— hs is a "plksr" 
— hs Is out two nllllon dollars thsr«,« ^Vj* «\t b«A^tt «\M»»«i a 

^all« irhy did that Iqprosjloa gs abroad? Ha raad 

part of tba qualliylag statauaat, but not tba oonolxialon, 

and tht presu naturally Jumpad at that conolusloa* iiara 

la vbat ha said aftar aunouaclng oa intaria orarall surplxia 

of |£9,251,395 — and I ask you IT, in your good judgBsnt,— 

whathar or njt tha press was right In assualng thara was 

a surplus. '.[• said; 

"Honaver, for tha purpoaa of ooqparlaoa I 
now prssont in a slxollar mannar a atataaaat 
of ravanua and expandlturas, both oa 
ordinary and capital aocounts, baaad oa 
tan loonths actual and two laontha for a oast, 
ficuras showlns an IntarlD oyarall surplus 
for tha yaar ending Uaroh 31. 1944, of 
$£9,851,395.21 nada up as follows:** 

Than he giyas tha Itans. And than bs goes oa to say: 

"VAille the above glvea a general picture of 
overall reoelpta and ejqpendlturos, the saas 
in no vray should be confused with ordinary 
receipts and ezpendl turea . " 

m, ?DO;»T: That la right. 

IK, HSfdUBM: (i£lgla) : Walt until 1 flalahed 1%. .imXt 

until 1 Get the other , art added onto it. Be geea oat 

"And 1 aubBlt that it is the next debt 
which should Dore partioularly conoera 
ua at this tlm* L\xr overall aurplua 
which Includea the ordinary aurplua » 
partlcaiara of vtiioh hare already beaa 
given, and the provialons whloh we 
have made for tha reduction for net 
debt will car respond with tha reduotion 
in net debt t^loh I shall glvw par«aaatly 


Itow, Just xi.steQ to tnxa 







fii e;. — 


aut tWO^ 

- 1266 - 5-14-46 

'*From the standpoint of ordlaftry r«otlptt 
and oxpondltures and not dobt, this It tte 
truo oTorall surplus of ordinary aeeeiiBta.* 

kR. PRC3T: It doas not soj anytnic^ oi uxa Jciad. 

IJi. KEPSURN (Xlgin)i Ifir. Chalrnaa, baTt i tha 
floor or not? Sit down, I hava tha floor. 

m» xR03T: I «111 not, I sa^' uuit la a dallbarara 
fflia-atatamant. That Is tha way sqr hnn. frlaad raada It — 

IB» HEPBURN: On a point of order, I2r. chairaaa, 
have I tha floor or not? 

in, FR03T: On a point of ardar -- 

Ut. IISPBDRR: Lst us have a staiidinc conteat* 

IR, J0LLI7FB: .;e all wont to naar oovn of thaa* iX 
they ;rill only please taKe turns. 

HR. lOEFBURN: I vant to read the loat santenoe 

in thia: 

"Fraffl tha stasdpaint »f ordinary raoeipta 
and expenditures and net debt, thia la tha 
true overall surplua of ordinary aooounta." 

MR. FROST: Yes, the net debt reduction. 

MR. HXPBDRN (Blfiin): ilell, I guass I had b«tt4r 
glTa in — 

IR. A. H. ACRSS tCarleton): Ur. ^hairaaa, i. hart 
bean trying to B*t up tao or thraa tinea ; I hare aat im 
thia Hauae for a 0aad oaay yaara and in anet^erto tha hen* 
nambar for ^Igin lUr. .lapburn), aay i aay that ha ia tb» 
last hon. nambar of this Lsgislatura alio sho\ild talk ab«ut 
juggling the figures, fron what ha hoa done, ia ordar ta 
nka a aunshina budget in 1937, whan ha traoararrad tT9m 
the ProTinoial Bank around aavanty aillioa dollara, ta 
balanoe the budget and I ooi produoa tha buds«t atataaaat 
and the day and the data on aliioh it vaa tranafarrad. 

. bam o 


arr ■: 

: oirf;f ul 


0ii^ «! •({ ti^-. 

- ISM - 3-14-40 

Mr. Aor«s. 

FollcvlDg thftt, tb« bude*t In tbt UMct r9^» b* 
troQsr«rr«(l aillions froa Xh» Iiydro Coaaissloa to brlag 
la a balanoad budgtt. i haT« lltttntd -« 

LB. USi'aURN CUeln}: .f«ll» I oat